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(PS4)I_I_Hope_I_I

Why does Warframe have so much out of order Lore and Content ?

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

New and/or improved design elements that affect story are often chronologically introduced and then inversely explained through lore.  

Because retcons are a thing.

Like so:

Everyone knows Base/Tenno versions of frames were designed first, and then their statistically superior Prime counterparts with shiny bits were introduced later to create a demand for revenue.

Alad V follows a classic loop of scheming villain who falls victim to his own Tom-F**Kery over and over (thus dying over and over) and yet here he is.

...Zanuka Alad V (Yeeted out a Window)

...Mutalist Alad V (Crushed by Tenno again)

...Wolf Alad V (Wolf made him his b**ch)

...(soon to be) Amalgam Alad V (ERRA or Natah and the Sentients will soon make him his b**ch)

But there is a diference between Retcon and Cronology, the problem I am talking about is that we are introduced to things either before they happen or out of order.

What sense does it make to have Patient Zero on Eris wen you have met cured Alad V 2 quests ago ?(Whiteout info of his transformation or cure), my problem is that there is both MISSING and out of ORDER lore in the game, specially for Alad V and Stalker.

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Yes, it's a mess. They're not even retcons. When they introduced the current starchart they stuffed it all up. Main issue is that lore chronology tended to follow real time (i.e. as events, operations or quests were introduced) but they then just shoved them onto the new (at the time) starchart when they changed it according to where they take place. That is, they tried to fit real time chronology onto starchart chronology.

Vor's Trial has the opposite problem. They ignored where it takes place to account for when it takes place (right at the start of the game). It's on Earth, Venus and Mercury but somehow on the current starchart it's all on Earth nodes.

I think the better solution would have been to introduce quests in the right order, in the right locations, by allowing players to temporarily get a sneak peek at locations they haven't unlocked yet.

 

 

Then there's the disruption node on Mars which you have access to as a new player, with a certain talking head that you've probably never even met.

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57 minutes ago, (PS4)Cephalon_Hope said:

But there is a diference between Retcon and Cronology, the problem I am talking about is that we are introduced to things either before they happen or out of order.

What sense does it make to have Patient Zero on Eris wen you have met cured Alad V 2 quests ago ?(Whiteout info of his transformation or cure), my problem is that there is both MISSING and out of ORDER lore in the game, specially for Alad V and Stalker.

 

Quests are released in linear real-time fashion but are episodic and self-contained in nature.

So as they take the loose pieces and string them together after-the-fact, gaps...plotholes...retcons...they will all surface.

Factor in that there is a degree of Freedom as to exactly how a player progresses and you must allow a degree of latitude for the wonderful mess of a game that Warframe is.

”Official” lore will be introduced, but don’t expect it to be in full concert with the game as DE has developed and released it.

Otherwise Alad V would be immortal...as would all villain bosses, but especially Alad.

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Because DE wants to release big bombs instead of smaller things that link everything together.

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Tenno live nonlinear existences. (I suspect this hypothesis may be borne out by the upcoming planes of duviri stuff) This is evidenced by how the Quill interact with the tenno. We will have/do have/have had a long relationship with them.

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On 2019-12-25 at 3:52 AM, PookieNumnums said:

Because the void is not confined by laws of time and space, and physics. The only explanation is that we are still trapped in the void. The whole tenno experience has been the dying memory of some old man coming to his end on the duviri plains. 

Thats... Hum... Thats somehow the most plausible thing I have ever seen.

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On 2019-12-25 at 7:42 AM, Kaotyke said:

Because DE wants to release big bombs instead of smaller things that link everything together.

Saryn has some big bombs,  but wisp has the perfect arsenal. 

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They need to remove kuria from the map since now we know who are the queens and make the poem a part of the quest or maybe even a song. They need to remove glass fishes on the plains and strenghthen saya's vigil quest cause it was terribly weak. They also need to add an npc who introduces us to the culture of the cetus people or a flipbook which we can read in game. Going into codex and scanning pictures for radio frequencies don't make any sense. They add up these side elements that are optional to get.

For example khora's story fragments are from ghouls and first encounter to venari is on orb vallis or venus by a corpus scientist and she drops from sanctuary onslaught. Okay but what's going on here??? 

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52 minutes ago, Shidonia said:

They need to remove kuria from the map since now we know who are the queens and make the poem a part of the quest or maybe even a song. They need to remove glass fishes on the plains and strenghthen saya's vigil quest cause it was terribly weak. They also need to add an npc who introduces us to the culture of the cetus people or a flipbook which we can read in game. Going into codex and scanning pictures for radio frequencies don't make any sense. They add up these side elements that are optional to get.

For example khora's story fragments are from ghouls and first encounter to venari is on orb vallis or venus by a corpus scientist and she drops from sanctuary onslaught. Okay but what's going on here??? 

The Kuria is fine, it is the backstory of the queens.

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What it boils down to is that DE is telling a linear story from the beginning. 

But anyone getting into the game now is jumping in at like, episode 60 or so. It's all perfectly linear and makes sense to me cos I've been here from the very beginning, but I'm also by far a minority anymore. 

 

 

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Just now, Paradoxity said:

What it boils down to is that DE is telling a linear story from the beginning. 

But anyone getting into the game now is jumping in at like, episode 60 or so. It's all perfectly linear and makes sense to me cos I've been here from the very beginning, but I'm also by far a minority anymore. 

 

 

Yeah except there's no way for new players to catch up on the story without watching youtube or something.

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1 minute ago, Paradoxity said:

What it boils down to is that DE is telling a linear story from the beginning. 

But anyone getting into the game now is jumping in at like, episode 60 or so. It's all perfectly linear and makes sense to me cos I've been here from the very beginning, but I'm also by far a minority anymore. 

It's more than that. Anyone starting now will get the story out of order as they progress through the starchart (at least, those bits of the story that have been included in some form or other on the starchart)

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Honestly this problem in my opinion is a part of a bigger issue of Warframe - the new player experience is terrible.

After the intro mission, the player is just left there wondering what the hell is he suppoused to do, what should he pursue first etc. Moreover, the lore is also a complete mess, and the sad part is that the story in Warframe is cool, it's just that it is presented in the same jumbled together way as the rest of the game.

I have been saying this many times - what can really boost Warframe's  popularity or at least number of active players is the complete rewamp of new player experience and introduction of lore. You can't expect people to stick with your game and care about the universe after you bombard them with lots of disjointed information from all over the place. Even the daily rewards are guilty of this. I saw a youtuber playing the game for the first time, and his daily was given by Simaris, who also calls him a hunter... Who the eff is that? Why did he call me a hunter?? Are we suppoused to know each other??

Again, it is my opinion, but this stuff is a big sin of Warframe, bigger than bugs and buggy new content releases. They need to just put a pause on new stuff, and do a proper new player experience, with quests in order, with proper tutorials, intro missions that can show players the ropes (like what the hell dark sectors are). People shouldn't be expected to read a wiki every new day they play the game.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Yeah except there's no way for new players to catch up on the story without watching youtube or something.

 

Just now, schilds said:

It's more than that. Anyone starting now will get the story out of order as they progress through the starchart.

Well... yeah. 

I'm saying, the only reason the story is all jacked up is because it's progressing linearly from a definite start sometime back in '14 or so, to where it is now. This is poor planning on DE's part.  

That  said, it's also not entirely unusual. Most MMOs are guilty of it to some extent or another. 

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4 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

 

Well... yeah. 

I'm saying, the only reason the story is all jacked up is because it's progressing linearly from a definite start sometime back in '14 or so, to where it is now. This is poor planning on DE's part.  

That  said, it's also not entirely unusual. Most MMOs are guilty of it to some extent or another. 

My problem is that it is not even that difficult to fix. They already have gating in the form of Solar rails... just make a few quick quests based on those old story events, slap them as solar rails requirements on certain planets and boom, lore problems mostly fixed. For disruption, just replace little duck with Ordis for those who have not touched the Vox solaris stuff. Give a few extra lines to him and that's it.

EDIT. This is what bothers me - it's like they don't even consider new players when they make stuff. They don't stop for a moment and think - what if a new player gets a daily from Simaris? What if a new player sees little duck for the disruption mission, even though he has no idea who the eff is that, and little duck also doesn't know who the eff are you.

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There's no reason why all those real-time operations and events can't be included in some form or other for new players to experience. Some of them, even, just as a second hand experience in a Leverian-like museum thing. There's also no reason why players can't be introduced to them in the right order.

 

Some of this would go some way to providing context for a number of missions types which new players are otherwise thrust into with no explanation.

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DE no longer cares about consistency, 

It is about keeping the masses fed, they don't question where the meat comes from when there are no pastures or why is smells different. 

It is when you are no longer hungry that you realize something is wrong. 

Availability over consistency and quantity over quality has been the priority since.... I can't even remember when consistency was even important anymore. 

It is one of the few things I dislike about the game. 

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11 hours ago, (PS4)Cephalon_Hope said:

The Kuria is fine, it is the backstory of the queens.

The idea of Kuria and the backstory are fine, the way it is presented is not. A player (even if they like the lore) can go through the entire game complete the star chart and all quests and yet never know of the Kuria.

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3 hours ago, Oakjaw said:

The idea of Kuria and the backstory are fine, the way it is presented is not. A player (even if they like the lore) can go through the entire game complete the star chart and all quests and yet never know of the Kuria.

I kinda like it, its a tresure hunt you do if you are curious enough to learn the backstory of the Orokin/Grineer Queens, I do think it should be made more obvious it is a thing.

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33 minutes ago, (PS4)Cephalon_Hope said:

I kinda like it, its a tresure hunt you do if you are curious enough to learn the backstory of the Orokin/Grineer Queens, I do think it should be made more obvious it is a thing.

Yeah that's all I'd really like honestly. I love the lore of warframe but didn't know of the Kuria until long after I completed all available quests and most Cephalon fragments.

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On 2019-12-24 at 10:54 AM, (PS4)Cephalon_Hope said:

After 2 years of Warframe, I have come to notice just how much out of order Lore the game has in its own Starchart, here are a few examples:

We get the "Second Dream" quest, where Alad V appears in a healing process, before ever meeting Mutalist Alad V and even knowing he was cured via Event (That the game gives you no traces of unless you check a fan wiki).

We get a disruption mission on Mars given by Little Duck (Ya know, the one who refuses to talk whit us if we dont have a Operator) where she talks about Alad V wen a new player has no bloody clue who he is yet, and uses Amalgam tech wen it isnt even a thing story wise, and, in correlation, in Jupiter we get pop-ups of Alad V in his normal and healed state independent of quests, newbies get Amalgams wen for them Sentients are still a unknown thing till Uranus.

And there is also that one "favor" Alad V talks about during "Second Dream" which we do pay by saving him from the Acolytes, and yet, whiteout a wiki, the game doesn't tell you that.

 

Isnt there a easy solution for this ?

Given that the Mutalist Alad V Assasination is a separate Node in Eris, why doesnt DE just, I dunno, give you a small Cutscene (Nightwave Style) after you do the Saturn Junction, place the "Patient Zero" quest as a reward from Jupiter to Saturn and then after the quest is done give another Cutscene on the events of the cure ? Same for the whole Acolyte stuff after we do War Whitin.

Same for Disruptions, why not keep them locked till "The Sacrifice" ?

I find a Starchart like this to make more sense:

Jupiter (Meet Alad V) -> Saturn (Mutalist cutscene -> "Patient Zero" -> Cure cutscene) -> Uranus (Natah) -> Neptune (2nd Dream) -> Pluto (Acolyte cutscene) -> Eris (Jordas).

And then after "The Sacrifice" receive a Inbox message of Little Duck telling you that the Solaris United have detected Alad V using new tech, where we will check Jupiter, unluck the Disruption missions, have Cured Alad V permanently wen we get a screen of him and get to know the Amalgams.

 

Is this harder to do then it seems ? DE seems to be able to lock nodes whit requirements, and a quick Captura scene doesn't seem hard to make and be sent on a Inbox message.

Thoughts ?

 

 

There are many reasons, some “good,”

some “poor,”

some “nominal,”

and some that just go into the category of  “if we had to provide a reason for everything, explain the “why” behind every occurrence, unpack the causal relationships, explain the intentions behind what was done, the reasons for what was kept, continued, discontinued, and so forth, we’d be trying to write a piece of epic Sci Fi fantasy Hypertext Fiction as thick as one each of every every foreign language translation of ‘Asimov’s Guide To The Bible,’ stacked up and transcoded into an E-Book bigger than the storage capacity of any e-reader invented before the iPad Pro.”

Some of (what I consider to be) the “poor” reasons, are those that [fail to] address many of the examples provided.

The reason “provided,” is that if you go and “look it up,” you’ll find out what happened in the game (mostly during the early years of development) that yields a satisfactory accounting of why what happened and when. 
 

It is tied up in the primary means for distributing new “content” during that period. 
 

The requisites for “content,” were (initially) throwing situational packages into the “bottle.” “Operations,” “Alerts,” and other sorts of Events,” which brought along more enduring, residual “content,” (new mission types, locations, enemies, NPCs, Warframes, weapons, etc.)

The Warframe “Universe,” (or “Tennoverse”) is always in a persistent process of involving and evolving.

So there are gaps that remain, from the past situational content (now resolved), that also introduced new enduring content (which is bound to remnants of those situations). Everything that has remained, and occurs to be encountered within Warframe, is always occurring.  “Time” (in the Tennoverse) is not linear. In that respect, it comes to very closely resemble “dream time,” and “dream logic.” That is where the “poor” reason leaps to the “good” reason. The “Tennoverse” is a representation of an artificially generated “Dreamscape.”

It’s not a cop-out to the “it was all just a dream” trope, but rather quite the contrary. It’s a participatory exercise/experiment in “world building” as “dreamworld” building.

We dream and are dreamed (you see and are seen).

The history of “the dream,” is rather a different matter from its “lore.” 
 

The second “poor” reason for not providing “lore” of missing event linkages, which formed the history of the “Tennoverse” in its present (and “persistent”) state, is because it’s technically not “lore.” (See, I told you, it’s a “poor” reason. It ducks out on a “technicality.”)


So during the years of development that preceded a sort of re-launch (Update 18.xxxxx ... Specters of The Rail,” where I “came in,” in media res, which is always where things are, and “we” are ; ) different means of “content delivery” were being tried. When things got up to “quests,” it became sort of apparent that more than just one persistent allied NPC was necessary for juggling exposition via dialogue.

Enter Ordis.

Since “we” as players can not “speak” for our own [hint] SELVES as Tenno within the “Tennoverse,” we have to assume the responsibilities of “visual storytelling” via actions, [hint]  “ACTS.”
 

The result is that the “good” reason (for everything) only adjusts for the truly “poor” reasons (for particular narrative omissions) to a “nominal” extent. 

Putting the main responsibility upon only The Lotus to suggest a framework to guide actions across various stand-alone missions, via the perpetual “alert” system, was a bit over-taxing on the character & “role.” Getting the System to “breathe” with different routes and sources of information and cross-talk, and seem more “alive,” was pretty constrained by that. 
 

 It tied up “the system” with one string of info always dangled by only The Lotus, pointing to where to go (and why and when to do so), while there were new systems being developed which progression would unlock, through quests and [the remains of] former Operations “Content” being “cleared” - Sanctuary Slaughterhouse ... er .. Onslaught, Sorties, Cycling returns of Formorians [which we never get an original backstory to], and Razorback Armadas [which still have not altered the in-mission narrative “content” from when it was “Nef Anyo’s Prototype,” from an Operation which is never reviewed], Kuva Missions, Abitrations, The Index, and of course, now, more “Disruptions,” which are feeding into the developing, “persistent” Old/New War “Content,.”

Much of which can or does not concern The Lotus.

In short, something MORE SHOULD be provided to inform certain linkages (now that the “persistent” remaining “content” has been organized in layered hierarchies and lines of progression), but should not be committed to unless and until the certainty that the hierarchies and progression which form the skeleton of Warframe as a “Game,” are in a permanent arrangement. 

Enter Nora Night.
 

Nightwave has not only introduced a new convention and narrative device for delivery and communication of “content,” (which actually can be episodically reviewed for what has been missed), it has installed a system for delivery of “narrative content,” which has the potential to extend to using the same systems, resources and mechanics to provide the missing ‘bridges” which form the causal links across the (“GAP WAVES?”), while following through the progressive hierarchies.

 

(This is just coming off the top of my head, and will probably benefit from revision, editing, explanations and practical examples, images, and links later on. Just consider it a “place holder” response entry for now, perhaps.)

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Well that was clear, you just pointed out that we even missed a lots of funs .....

But thanks for the info, the game was so futuristic and fantastic but unfortunaly, DE are Orokin of this dimension, only their little empire was ending so fast.

" The void was not a mean of their device, it is where they shall resign so fast, it is their demise and we will deliver it to them by our vessels. But know this, it is THEY who directed us "

- WE ARE THEIR RECKONING !

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