Option to forcefully remove someone from Railjack helm station

[Helvidnir]

See title, 

pls give the host / RJ owner the option to forcefully remove the pilot from the station for various reasons.
Thanks.

[Drasiel]

You might want to actually give reasons, since they would have to outweigh the abuse such a system could offer. 

[Helvidnir]

It prevents abuse from people not actually flying the railjack, but instead just aim toward the most number of enemies and put everything at risk - like a sitting duck.
Since it is only the host / RJ owner to make this descissions abuse is not an issue. There are reason why I want to fly my own ship - like being the superior pilot. 
 

[MadMattPrime]

11 hours ago, Helvidnir said:

It prevents abuse from people not actually flying the railjack, but instead just aim toward the most number of enemies and put everything at risk - like a sitting duck.
 

That is entirely the point of Railjack as of now. 

Clear the X/X fighters and X/X Crewships before doing the Other mission objective so everyone can enter the enemy base to pick up additional resources because resources from containers aren't shared as of now only those darn blueprints and search for the Mystical Umbra forma container since DE hasn't confirmed that this blueprint is shared.

I've got no problem with people trying to clear the X/X conditions by driving into the horde since a decent Railjack can take punishment and a beating. Then again I got max rolls for most of my railjack equipment and a good engineering team.

The problem is team mates who go to base objectives first instead of clearing the X/X objectives first.

Then again i can understand, since its your ship and you want to drive it.

 

[Helvidnir]

MadMattPrime, the issue is that people take the helm once they join and just f up.
Imagine you start your mission solo, someone joins, then another one. You went back for some repairs and the fourth enters - takes helm and just screws up entirely and not listening to the chat nor commands given by Cy. It is a most frustrating experience.

[Avienas]

3 hours ago, Helvidnir said:

MadMattPrime, the issue is that people take the helm once they join and just f up.
Imagine you start your mission solo, someone joins, then another one. You went back for some repairs and the fourth enters - takes helm and just screws up entirely and not listening to the chat nor commands given by Cy. It is a most frustrating experience.

And this is why i can`t wait to get rank 10 engie so i can just remote repair stuff. While also wanting command tactical to of course, include ways i can just have a small army of kuva liches just mosh pitting any enemies offa my ship like a proper crew.

Which is kind of why i might have to prepare some plat to buy some Tonkor Kuva liches or similar op weapon types, nothing says good security then EZ mob deleting weapons. Shame obviously enemy scaling can ruin what can normally YEET us, even if we had 5 times our E-health.

 

I would like the ability to also prevent people from firing my missiles and avionics from the gunner seats too, since i sometimes end up with my stock of 23~ missiles going down to 0 rather fast. Which is why i would of rather everyone be FORCED to use thar own repair/flux/missiles/dome-charge ammo pools. Because not only does someone need to restock the things, while also the forge capacity has a very small 200 pool, plus apparently rank 7 YIELD bonus and likely the others is not working as intended(which a +50% crafting bonus should be showing something, especially to flux energy`s 100 per yield craft), it seems they are useless on console at the moment.

COURSE also on that same note, it seems D.E. needs to include proper range checks so i know if my guns and especially the tungska cannon is not out of range or in the fall off range when i am aiming at a enemy. Normally the latter would delete crew ships rather easily, but now i seem to be running into maps on Saturn where the thing takes more then 1 shot to yeet ships (which does not help when some retard is spamming it and wasting ammo), Which also makes me wish we could upgrade the cannon so it has longer range before it starts to fall off and of course, much higher damage bases.

And since i am on the tangent still, it would be nice if more things like the battle avionics had some stronger scaling, Since even with 52 missiles in the saturn area, they start dropping off in scale even with a 29%~ extra ordinance damage bonus avionic, I honestly feel like the 3rd weapon armament slot should help contribute to the damage scaling of damage dealing avionics to an extent, though not ones like the abusive as fk drill one, since that one seems to have plenty of things unbalanced for it already.

OVERALL, many things should of been present and even the map UI not being in fixed in place for the railjack, the fact we cannot Enforce a message relay to force a person to get to work on something we relayed to them or they have 15 seconds before they get tractored over to the archwing slingshot and launched out of the ship, would certainly of been nice. Granted some cooldowns would have to exist, but i rather have the capability to get someone to know they were ticking off the captain and you should never tick off the captain.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Avienas

[DrBorris]

19 hours ago, Helvidnir said:

It prevents abuse from people not actually flying the railjack, but instead just aim toward the most number of enemies and put everything at risk - like a sitting duck.
Since it is only the host / RJ owner to make this descissions abuse is not an issue. There are reason why I want to fly my own ship - like being the superior pilot. 
 

And what if the Host wants to take the helm from someone doing well and ruin the mission themselves? Who's to say the Host is actually the superior pilot? 

Just because you're host it doesn't mean that you know best nor that you have the right to force people to your will. As soon as you que up for a public mission your ship basically comes public property. 

[Steel_Rook]

As I've said before - DE will not give you "admin tools." They've staunchly refused to give us host kick or even mark the host in any way since I've been around, I doubt they're going to let you eject people from consoles or prevent people from using consoles or prevent people from leaving the ship or force people to follow orders or whatever else restriction you guys might come up with. I WISH I could eject disruptive players from my lobby. It's what made Payday 2 public lobbies bearable. Doubt we'll see it here, though.

 

2 hours ago, Avienas said:

I would like the ability to also prevent people from firing my missiles and avionics from the gunner seats too, since i sometimes end up with my stock of 23~ missiles going down to 0 rather fast. Which is why i would of rather everyone be FORCED to use thar own repair/flux/missiles/dome-charge ammo pools. Because not only does someone need to restock the things, while also the forge capacity has a very small 200 pool, plus apparently rank 7 YIELD bonus and likely the others is not working as intended(which a +50% crafting bonus should be showing something, especially to flux energy`s 100 per yield craft), it seems they are useless on console at the moment.

I can do you one better: Don't use persistent resources for in-mission crafting. Yes, I know DE did it like this to serve as a resource sink, but just don't do that. Always start the Railjack fully-stocked, then use an in-mission-only resource of some kind (I think I called it Nanogel) to craft everything. Omnitool fuel and Avionics energy would be 10, Armaments would be 20, Forward Artillery shells would be 40 or 50. Don't let players convert that into resources and simply auto-restock the ship between missions to avoid players having to go back to the Dojo. There, problem done. Nobody can waste your resources or eat from the reward pool.

[Xyngrr]

@Steel_Rook
I have permissions on my dojo, why should my ship be any different?
I built it, I'm choosing to allow others to use it for mutual fun and benefit.
Removing someone from a console is not the same as ejecting them from the lobby, just as not permitting all clan members to destroy Dojo rooms is not the same as kicking them from the clan. Do not confuse Admin tools with game role tools.  

[Helvidnir]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb DrBorris:

And what if the Host wants to take the helm from someone doing well and ruin the mission themselves? Who's to say the Host is actually the superior pilot? 

Just because you're host it doesn't mean that you know best nor that you have the right to force people to your will. As soon as you que up for a public mission your ship basically comes public property. 

When you see someone sitting at helm, just firing guns - without moving the ship - what would you do? The pilot is in charge of the entire crew and not listening to your chat nor any other means of communcations. Would you stand there "oh, he is propably a slow learner and needs to get used to RJ, maybe it is ok to let my 20 minutes Saturn mission run down the river for nothing".
Or in other words 
"I want those amateurs off my ship" - Cephalon Cy, 2019

Edited December 26, 2019 by Helvidnir

[DrBorris]

6 minutes ago, Helvidnir said:

When you see someone sitting at helm, just firing guns - without moving the ship - what would you do? The pilot is in charge of the entire crew and not listening to your chat nor any other means of communcations. Would you stand there "oh, he is propably a slow learner and needs to get used to RJ, maybe it is ok to let my 20 minutes Saturn mission run down the river for nothing".
Or in other words 
"I want those amateurs off my ship" - Cephalon Cy, 2019

My point is that there is nothing to say the the host knows best. I'm not saying there are not bad pilots out there, I'm just pointing out that being a host or client is not at all correlated to how good of a pilot you are. 

And again, as soon as you que into a public mission it is no longer "your" ship. Everyone has the same right to everything. The solution to your problem is not to give the host more rights. To be honest I think there is no solution, the problems you describe are the 'necessary evil' for the best possible way to handle things.

Just imagine how bad some public Railjacks could be if the host was able to push everyone around, you think Railjack can be toxic now...

[DrakeWurrum]

6 hours ago, Avienas said:

I would like the ability to also prevent people from firing my missiles and avionics from the gunner seats too

I definitely feel like those should be pilot only. I've had people in the side-guns firing off my Particle Ram, when I very much want to just keep it active.

36 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

My point is that there is nothing to say the the host knows best. I'm not saying there are not bad pilots out there, I'm just pointing out that being a host or client is not at all correlated to how good of a pilot you are. 

^this

36 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

And again, as soon as you que into a public mission it is no longer "your" ship. Everyone has the same right to everything. The solution to your problem is not to give the host more rights. To be honest I think there is no solution, the problems you describe are the 'necessary evil' for the best possible way to handle things.

To be fair, there could be some solutions. Vote-kicking. Blacklisting players. A queue that includes "role selection"

These would, of course, only mitigate the problem, rather than solve it outright. Can't beat stupid.

54 minutes ago, Helvidnir said:

When you see someone sitting at helm, just firing guns - without moving the ship - what would you do? The pilot is in charge of the entire crew and not listening to your chat nor any other means of communcations. Would you stand there "oh, he is propably a slow learner and needs to get used to RJ, maybe it is ok to let my 20 minutes Saturn mission run down the river for nothing".
Or in other words 
"I want those amateurs off my ship" - Cephalon Cy, 2019

First off: YOU are the one deciding that method of piloting isn't good. I can agree there are times you should actually be moving the ship around instead of sitting in one spot, especially when ramsleds are coming, but that doesn't mean you have the right to kick other players out of the seat.

Second: When I see someone doing that, I step outside the airlock and handle other objectives. They'll kill off the fighters eventually. This is all part of effective teamwork. If someone is at the helm determined to kill off fighters, even if they're doing a bad job of it, you might as well pick up the slack by helping to clear up other objectives that, most likely, you'll be better at handling.
Frankly, the fastest way to protect your ship is to kill off all the crewships.

I recently had a mission where, while I was handling crewships, somebody took my ship, parked it 20km back from all objectives, and then proceeded to Archwing towards the asteroid base.

I know some people prefer to play that way. I don't. So trust me, I get what you're feeling about not wanting other people driving your ship. This is just what happens when you pub.

Edited December 26, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, Helvidnir said:

When you see someone sitting at helm, just firing guns - without moving the ship - what would you do? The pilot is in charge of the entire crew and not listening to your chat nor any other means of communcations. Would you stand there "oh, he is propably a slow learner and needs to get used to RJ, maybe it is ok to let my 20 minutes Saturn mission run down the river for nothing".

Yeah, that's great. So what happens when that player is the host? Or do you intend to only ever host your own missions? I often see people treating Railjack like it's THEIR game mode and should be set to give THEM all the power, but it's important to think through what these suggestions do when you're on the other side of the equation.

 

21 hours ago, Xyngrr said:

I have permissions on my dojo, why should my ship be any different? I built it, I'm choosing to allow others to use it for mutual fun and benefit. Removing someone from a console is not the same as ejecting them from the lobby, just as not permitting all clan members to destroy Dojo rooms is not the same as kicking them from the clan. Do not confuse Admin tools with game role tools.

Your ship is not your dojo any more than your team is your dojo when running Void Fissures, is my point. The exact same argument you're making about Railjack console permissions I can make about, for instance, running Disruption. What if I don't want people on MY team starting Conduits when we aren't ready? What if I don't want these people holding onto keys instead of inserting them into Conduits? What if I don't want them running off to other rooms but rather stay with me and listen for the Demolist? What you're asking for IS admin tools, because you want the power to assign or deny roles to people and modify their behaviour for them.

And again - I'm not arguing against that, necessarily. However, if you're going to give the host powers like that, then I want a Host Kick option. And no, I don't say this as a slippery slope argument or hyperbole. I WANT a Host Kick option. I WANT the ability to overtly host my own lobbies vs. being matched with people already in a game. I want the same admin tools that Payday 2 gave me, because those admin tools were what made public lobbies in that game tolerable. If people started bagging engines before we've identified the correct one AFTER I've expressly instructed them not to, Kick. Saves me having to guess at the right engine and losing time. If people are opening cases and not disarming the C4 in them AFTER I warned about it, Kick. Means we get to keep the money. If people aren't playing with the team, then I want the ability to remove them from the team.

And yes, that does mean A****** hosts can troll people by kicking them before the end of a mission. I've had that happen to me in the past. That's a cost I'll take, personally.

[zakaryx]

If you're the host and don't have tactical 4 a crew memeber with pilot 7 can boost away from the map and basically hold the game hostage.

[DrakeWurrum]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And no, I don't say this as a slippery slope argument or hyperbole.

To be fair, that is a good slippery slope argument. As you suggest, that could be abused for all sorts of stupid reasons. You present sound arguments for why you would want to kick people. But what if you're doing it right, and an idiot thinks you're not, so they kick you? It just sounds to me like giving more power to the Host, let alone the ability to kick the Host, makes for a more toxic community.
Yes, there are situations right now that could be called "toxic" still, or at least aggravating. I've seen somebody take my ship and park it 20km away from the objectives while I was handling the final crewship. Because apparently some people are SO against dealing with repairs and boarders that they would rather treat the ship as a bus. So, believe me, I get the desires and needs here. I'm just worried about what moving in this direction could do to the community.

But... we could also use more capability in how our grouping works. There's no easy answer here, and it will always be a trade-off.

If we had more in-game direction as to what's "expected" or "right" for the game mode, and the game somehow rewarded players appropriately, then that would push things in a better direction. Positive reinforcement is always a superior method to punishment/exclusion. It's easy to apply to Railjack, but... not other game modes.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

To be fair, that is a good slippery slope argument. As you suggest, that could be abused for all sorts of stupid reasons. You present sound arguments for why you would want to kick people. But what if you're doing it right, and an idiot thinks you're not, so they kick you? It just sounds to me like giving more power to the Host, let alone the ability to kick the Host, makes for a more toxic community.

I did cover that at the end, albeit in relation to being kicked at the end of a mission by A****** hosts. That's a risk I'm personally willing to take in return for having proper admin tools. Payday 2 was supposedly famous for being kicked at the end of a match just before you get your rewards, but in my 2900 hours playing, I've only had that happen to me once. That once, incidentally, was with a team who sat on their hands while I did all of their objectives, whom I unloaded a pretty profanity-laiden tirade on after soloing the mission, so kicking me at the end was par for the course at that point. Hosts abusing their powers is definitely a danger, yes, but it's a danger I'm personally willing to risk in return for better hosting tools. It's moot anyway, though - DE won't give us any of this because they seem resolved to create as little of a distinction between "host" and "client" as they can get away with.

 

4 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

If we had more in-game direction as to what's "expected" or "right" for the game mode, and the game somehow rewarded players appropriately, then that would push things in a better direction. Positive reinforcement is always a superior method to punishment/exclusion. It's easy to apply to Railjack, but... not other game modes.

This is also true. Proper multiplayer matchmaking is something Warframe has always lacked. Hell, we had to push to have the Exploiter Orb turned into a Bounty specifically so we could auto-matchmake into it, if you recall. I'm convinced that DE have bitten off more than they could chew with the team-heavy, communication-heavy, role-heavy mode of Railjack. Sure, the game mechanics themselves can work... With friends on voice. But the moment you start playing with pubbies, you realise neither the communication system nor the matchmaking system are even remotely sufficient to handle it. You NEED Overwatch style Role Que for Railjack, you NEED MOBA style "wait for full team" matchmaking for it, you might even benefit from a server/lobby browser similar to Crime.net.

You furthermore really need a proper communication system which allows players to choose a role and announce it as well as ask for a role towards the entire team and not individual players. In fact, why IS the Tactical ability to issue orders player-specific? Even if I'm the captain and other people respect my orders, why do I need to manually pick a player and order them to fix breaches? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask THE TEAM to repair breaches, have Cy announce this to everybody and maybe give players the ability to quick-select a "I'm on it!" / "No can do!" responce so I know if anyone's listening? Granted, I'm repeating my Railjack suggestions, but it's only because the game mode lacks even the most rudimentary multiplayer conveniences for how coordination-heavy it is.

Let's see what DE do next year...

[Awazx]

En 26/12/2019 a las 7:41, DrBorris dijo:

As soon as you que up for a public mission your ship basically comes public property. 

No.

My ship, my conditions.

[Awazx]

Instead of being forced to throw someone at the helm (which can be violent and unpleasant to do, for you and the other) is to implement a permit system on your ship:

 

[DrBorris]

16 hours ago, Awazx said:

No.

My ship, my conditions.

No.

It is a public mission, it is public property. 

 

16 hours ago, Awazx said:

Instead of being forced to throw someone at the helm (which can be violent and unpleasant to do, for you and the other) is to implement a permit system on your ship:

 

And a permit system would be awful for any client. Clients are not second rate citizens, they have just as much of a right to play the game as any other. Some people are not even able to host missions due to network/hardware reasons.

Warframe is a co-op game first, the matchmaking co-op is what most people experience and that experience needs to be good. You being stingy is breaking the norm and breaking other people's experiences therefore you are the one that needs to use recruiting/clans/friends to fulfill your specific wants. 

 

Just imagine the two options here. Imagine how it would feel for a client to load into a mission with an annoying host who has locked everything down versus being a host that has an annoying client. One of those is an annoyance and the other can completely ruin an experience. 

[Awazx]

hace 4 horas, DrBorris dijo:

It is a public mission, it is public property. 

The mission is public, my ship is not. The proof is that my ship is named after me, not yours.

[Awazx]

hace 4 horas, DrBorris dijo:

Just imagine the two options here. Imagine how it would feel for a client to load into a mission with an annoying host who has locked everything down versus being a host that has an annoying client. One of those is an annoyance and the other can completely ruin an experience. 

Customers can ruin the captain's experience, and abuse of the permit system can ruin the client's experience. It seems fair to me.

[DrBorris]

47 minutes ago, Awazx said:

The mission is public, my ship is not. The proof is that my ship is named after me, not yours.

And DE technically owns your account that you only license from them (read the EULA). If you want to get technical nothing is yours. 

 

It is a matter of what is fun for the most people. 

[Avienas]

5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

And a permit system would be awful for any client. Clients are not second rate citizens, they have just as much of a right to play the game as any other. Some people are not even able to host missions due to network/hardware reasons.

Bit late on the responses but lets seriously go over this sheet

1. People are not restricted to being stuck on the ship, they can get out in archwing, fly around and shoot with thar guns. Which more often then naught, are usually better to use because you have no PROPER way of knowing what kind of guns the owner of the ship has, they could be using vanilla series guns or Zekti series which the latter tends to be BAD at overheating and without high rank gunner intrinstics your literally fk`d to the point the guns can overheat in less then 3 seconds of firing. Which does not help the damage bases even at MKII guns fall off insanely hard on saturn.
2. Sadly unless your running AMESHA, G.G. cause your freaking archwing will die near instantly, especially if your on console right now where ships can infinite spam missiles and ramsleds making you screwed at being able to stay alive, on top of dealing with projectile base systems without a proper means to hit track them since the Gunner Perks do not TRANSLATE into archwing shooting so unless you get the bug to use regular guns in space, your stuck using travel speed type guns, which i normally spam the fk outta slingshot till i get the bug so i can enjoy using my Opticor Vandal which has Hitscan so i can actually hit enemies, which still can take a good 5 to 10 shots in saturn nodes, especially with Elite enemies.
3. The only REAL way you can keep track of a ship`s stats is based on the ordiance rounds cause if you see 13 missiles they are using vanilla brand Tyro missiles, meaning they fall off hard a little bit into saturn and you could launch 4 of those in order to actually kill a fighter in some cases or in the Veil where you could unload 6 and sometimes still not kill a fighter(cause vanilla SUCKS and people do not update thar ship enough cause titanium costs are a BIOTCH). Which honestly at that point i just want armamanets to be OPTION access types so people can just punch in a card every time they enter a seat and that gun just automatically changes to what was listed on the card, Namely so people can bring thar own guns they are good with and likely have the skill to be able to shoot them, Because guns are either too poor at damage (Machine guns, Toxin guns,  Photor  heat lasers) or you have to be pinpoint accurate and near the enemy to work (Aka why Cyro guns should only be used on pilot seat and not in gunner seats due to bad pilots), Which pretty much leaves Pulsar as one of the only few reliable gun types since it actually has accuracy to work with, and covers some damage types that are the only ones worth using, namely the Slash/Puncture/Cold type variants

OVERALL, the system has so much clunk & buggery on it between the ship being too large on the inside, a badly designed ammo making system, easy for your ship to get maul`d with ruptures and fires to where you need  player on nearly 100% duty repairing or refunding ammo and your better off just unloading missile salvos in the early mission nodes and then spamming tyro seeker missiles of the highest MK since turrets become near use-less against fighters. Plus you are forced to just board crewships to blow them up, since the tungska cannon falls off hard past earth and can`t really be upgraded

 

Plus honestly, If people cant learn to use the slingshot, help keep the ship in decent shape, deal with boarding parties or do any form of communication, they have no right to be in railjack to begin with, OTHERWISE, they should stay with other game modes until that game mode is fixed to manage things better. Plus if they do not have the hardware to properly run a game like warframe they should be playing something else with alot less demand or get a offline based game instead. Especially with network connection if they are playing on a console game, which unless your some person who illegally modified your console, your only issue is having a crappy network connection.

Quote

Warframe is a co-op game first, the matchmaking co-op is what most people experience and that experience needs to be good. You being stingy is breaking the norm and breaking other people's experiences therefore you are the one that needs to use recruiting/clans/friends to fulfill your specific wants. 

Co-OP implies working together to get stuff done. If people do not CO-MMUNICATE, then cooperation cannot happen at all, Warframe is nothing like Final Fantasy 14 where people learn to work together by being assigned a role and doing it, The Tank keeps the adds on them, the Healer keeps everyone Alive and the Damage Dealers dispatch the enemies, While if Support types are present, they make sure to be constantly dunking buffs on everyone so they are working so much more effectively, that the poor DPS the support is doing is made up for it and then some.

If there is no role placement in a system like Railjack, then you obviously are going to get the MOBA experience where people will all demand MID or Bot or Jungler and start screaming like toxic little kids despite other important roles are left empty. The norm for any co-op game is cooperative interaction and since having no one covering the critical roles, is obviously going to lead to failure every time, Since its not like people can DPS speed thru enemies fast enough to `make up` for ship about to explode and the host is stuck dealing with too many enemies that flooded the railjack while the ship constantly keeps getting catastrophic failure cause everyone else is too busy yolo`ing around in archwing, ignoring the railjack about to die and they keep dying, reviving and repeating the process then helping out the important things.

If people are going to play public, Either Railjack needs a ROLE FILL selection or Every. God. Damn. Public. Rando. Who. Joins. Has. To. Be. Ready. To. Role. Fill. Any. Slot. Instead. Of. Running. Off. Like. A. Brain. Dead. Kid. Which certainly does not help that D.E. FORGOT TO PUT A MANDATORY TUTORIAL SYSTEM IN PLACE FIRST.

Quote

Just imagine the two options here. Imagine how it would feel for a client to load into a mission with an annoying host who has locked everything down versus being a host that has an annoying client. One of those is an annoyance and the other can completely ruin an experience. 

Honestly i would rather have a Auto pilot system then entrust a random player the controls of my ship since i have no idea what thar intrinstic ranks are, if they know how the lock on for missiles work, the basic idea on far one has to be before the turret guns are within effective shooting distance, if they know how to properly fly and not spin around constantly, disorienting the gunners, so they cant even aim at anything even with 360 controls. Likely do not even know how to use BOOST or DIRECTIONAL DASH to get around or even how to properly guide shots into enemies especially if they do not have that important low rank gunner skill which gives you a bead indicator, which some randos likely do not even understand how the fk to use one of those.

At the very least, if only the host can pilot, i can focus on being able to actually shoot enemies while the host is not piloting or i could always just get in the slingshot and shoot myself at fighters or go straight for crewships, Hijack a crewship and shoot with that instead, plus my brain will likely not be as concerned by having fewer options to worry about since its not like i am totally unable to complete the mission without needing to use anything on the railjack itself.

Honestly, Its pretty simple to say Railjack missions is just a expanded verison of Archwing missions, since they are entirely possible to do on archwings alone, despite all the b.s. amongst it, Since every railjack mission is basically just Archwing Exterminate with sometimes a random objective i have to fly into, hack something, shoot some things outside it, go back inside, repeat the process till the thing goes boom OR just run into a ship, speed run thru it and pop a random special joe`s head and be done with that EZ. Which usually you are going to fly to in your archwing, since only retards would leave the railjack next to missile silos, galleons or ship killers where ramsleds, death beams and missiles will spam that ship to death.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Avienas

[DrakeWurrum]

2 hours ago, Awazx said:

The proof is that my ship is named after me, not yours.

Well, that's also a big part of why I made the following thread:

  

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

they could be using vanilla series guns or Zekti series

Actually, I think each House has different coloring on their guns. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but... I guess to be fair, I've only seen either blue or red so far. I think red is Vidar and blue is Zetki.

I could be wrong. I haven't exactly been able to spend the resources to figure it out, with the high cost of repair. Still no indication of which rank of guns it is, nor do you see which type of guns they are until you fire them.

Also: Zetki Cryophon are considered the best version of Cryophon. All other Zetki are worthless, mind you.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Which honestly at that point i just want armamanets to be OPTION access types so people can just punch in a card every time they enter a seat and that gun just automatically changes to what was listed on the card, Namely so people can bring thar own guns they are good with and likely have the skill to be able to shoot them, Because guns are either too poor at damage (Machine guns, Toxin guns,  Photor  heat lasers) or you have to be pinpoint accurate and near the enemy to work (Aka why Cyro guns should only be used on pilot seat and not in gunner seats due to bad pilots), Which pretty much leaves Pulsar as one of the only few reliable gun types since it actually has accuracy to work with, and covers some damage types that are the only ones worth using, namely the Slash/Puncture/Cold type variants

So... I actually don't want that. It defeats the purpose of being able to kit out our own ship, as the host. I can see the trade-off, and I can understand why, but it also feels extremely weird to be carrying around our own equipment from our own dojo's Railjack.

Side-note: Pulsar is only good for CC. The two best guns for DPS are Cryohpon first and Carcinnox second. But Cryophon is best in the pilot seat, and Carcinnox is best in the side-gun.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

easy for your ship to get maul`d with ruptures and fires to where you need  player on nearly 100% duty repairing

We actually have the opposite problem. Ruptures and Fires actually don't mean anything for the ship. If you repair them it gives your ship some healing, but that's it. It's only breaches and electrical shorts that really matter (and the latter, obviously, less so). Seriously, try doing an Earth Proxima solo... you'll watch your ship charge to full HP and shields in spite of the fires and ruptures in the cargo hold.

I think if you do get enough fires, your ship will be slowly burning from the inside, but I usually don't reach that point anymore.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

the ship being too large on the inside

  Pretty sure the reason for this is obvious. Smaller resources out in the space mode makes it easier for the host to handle the resources. This is pretty normal for games that involve vehicles, mostly. I can respect them doing this so long as they keep sizes consistent across game modes. Case in point:

  

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Plus honestly, If people cant learn to use the slingshot, help keep the ship in decent shape, deal with boarding parties or do any form of communication, they have no right to be in railjack to begin with, OTHERWISE, they should stay with other game modes until that game mode is fixed to manage things better. Plus if they do not have the hardware to properly run a game like warframe they should be playing something else with alot less demand or get a offline based game instead. Especially with network connection if they are playing on a console game, which unless your some person who illegally modified your console, your only issue is having a crappy network connection.

Okay so, um... from here on, you have a LOT of very angry word salads. I can pick out what you're saying, and I'm not in disagreement with you here, but I'm picking up on a lot of anger and personal involvement, and I feel like you need to step back and take a deep breath. In multiple places, your choice of underlining, bolding, punctuation, caps... it's you expressing great amounts of rage, and you keep going off on unrelated tangents to boot.

 I dunno what set you off, and I'm not judging you, but damn dude. Relax. I've been in your shoes with posts. It's not good for you.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Railjack needs a ROLE FILL selection

Yes. Yes it does. I've been on the fence about this, but the more missions I do, the more I feel Railjack missions would benefit from a specific role selection similar to below:

• Pilot (obviously, drives the ship, with a focus on avoiding Ramsleds and Crewship attacks)
• Defense (stays on the ship - uses side-guns, handles repairs/boarders, works the Forges)
• Interceptor (stays primarily in Archwing - explodes crewships as top priority)
• Vanguard (also stays primarily in Archwing - primarily handles objectives like pulse turbine)

  I wouldn't be set on this specific set-up, so long as they basically have a set of roles similar to this that works. I've had a mission or two where it was me with two gunners and only one guy was on Archwing, so we handled objectives after everything was dead. I prefer it that way, tbh, except for Pulse Turbines. I actually would prefer it if the artillery cannon could handle crewships, and would love to fully rely on my ship.

Maybe if it's set up so that Host is specifically the Pilot, when launching a mission, he could set his preferred arrangement of roles for his crew?

Maybe as Pilot you want two people on Defense and one person as an Interceptor, and don't care for the Interceptor role. Maybe you want the whole crew on Defense, fully planning to use the artillery on crewships, with the intent to all head to objectives together (for resource drops, naturally) after the enemies are dead.

My only problem with that is... what if you want to Host, but don't want to Pilot? Maybe by being placed as the Pilot through role selection, you're the only one who is allowed to?

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

if they know how to properly fly and not spin around constantly, disorienting the gunners

As pilot, I make a lot of crazy maneuvers, largely to avoid Ramsleds, or else get out of the damage thrown at me from Crewships. I've also been in the side-guns and been disoriented, too, but I usually manage to figure it out.

This is a problem inherent in the design of the ship, I think. The side-guns need some fix to deal with this as a specific problem, because I feel like it's not right to ask a pilot to be a sitting duck when he's capable of so much maneuverability.

They should at least unhook the side-guns from the ship's orientation with the "phantom eye" ability after initially entering the seat, or something.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Hijack a crewship and shoot with that instead

I wish this was a more serious option to use. You might notice that a crewship has a pilot seat, a single side-gun seat, and a cannon in the underside. It would be fun to take 3 people into it and fully man it, while one guy stays in the Railjack pilot seat.

Problem is, these Crewships are weak in our hands. Both in damage and in speed. I feel like Intrinsics should give us some major boosts to a Crewship we've fully hijacked so that we can have more fun playing Grand Theft Spaceship.

Edited December 28, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Avienas]

57 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Well, that's also a big part of why I made the following thread:

 Actually, I think each House has different coloring on their guns. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but... I guess to be fair, I've only seen either blue or red so far. I think red is Vidar and blue is Zetki.

No one enjoys dealing with color or Hierogylph speak on figuring on what things do, If i do not have a test-fire feature like the God Eater series has so i can see what a bullet actually do or a skill actually does without having to test it in a actual mission, then it can be annoyingly wasteful as i have to chew up ammo just to figure out what the damage something can do, what is its fall off range, what is the catches to it (such as taking a few seconds to actually lock on), plus if it has any special gimmicks it does not say in the wall of moon text when i equip it in-game, then it leads to a mess. Since i am sure plenty do not memorize all the new status types since they are vastly different from the more easy to recognize status types in regular gameplay, when the new status types they bring sometimes do not make any sense, when some like the Toxin ver of railjack guns, basically is just using radiation`s status proc gimmick, which leads to some more confusion. 

Especially when i cant just put my cursor over some link for a element and it could give me a short description of what does DAT effect do, Especially if i cant just press the equilvency to right clicking on console to get a quick prompt on what it does, instead of being forced to look it up online since i can`t trust the CODEX in-game to explain such details.

Quote

I haven't exactly been able to spend the resources to figure it out, with the high cost of repair. Still no indication of which rank of guns it is, nor do you see which type of guns they are until you fire them.

Better make sure never to make Sigma series MKIII engines, like many parts, they do not properly function, meaning MKIII sigma engines are just doing the same as vanilla engines, absolutely no buff and meaning i basically wasted 6k+ titanium and other resources on it. Till D.E. fixes it, i basically have a useless object taking up a slot of my inventory which i have absolutely no idea how many empty slots i have available.

Quote

Also: Zetki Cryophon are considered the best version of Cryophon. All other Zetki are worthless, mind you.

This depends on alot of factors, but honestly i would say Zekti Cryophon has absurd heat build up, where it can over-heat in 3 shots, likely maybe 4 if you have the intrinstics for it. Still it suffers from the fall off range and if you are not using it on pilot seat, you are using a very bad type of gun with short reach, in ability to have any accuracy with the guns, since you are forced to put your reliance on the pilot can keep the ship straight, except they have to keep doing barrel rolls and what not to keep shooting a enemy THEY are chasing.

Mostly, it looks like Vidar aka the 3rd tier guns seem to be the more reliable ones, but i have yet to outfit my ship on full MKIII weapons, since titanium costs are too absurd while us console players are still stuck on the 5th hotfix, where most of the useful `drastic material gain buffs` are on later hotfixes.

Quote

So... I actually don't want that. It defeats the purpose of being able to kit out our own ship, as the host. I can see the trade-off, and I can understand why, but it also feels extremely weird to be carrying around our own equipment from our own dojo's Railjack.

The point is that if i play public, i have to expect people, especially on saturn and veil nodes, to already be using extremely reliable guns. There is a reason why the `host` in regular missions is not bringing the guns everyone is issued with, because they could force you to only use bratons or paris (regular) weapons and likely be completely un-modded and expect you to take down a level 100 Sortie Boss with them.

Considering railjack has around 5-8 types of turrets, 3 munition type weapons, said turrets can come in 4 flavor types, still have a rng-sus bonus value on MKII and MKIII weapons, plus even the engines, shield capacity, health, armor and all the extra things on the avionic abilities are what the host sets up, Means you are at the complete mercy of someone bringing a garbage ship, since more then likely they spammed public, got the intrinstics and then are running thar vanilla trash heap ship in saturn cause they got thar minimum intrinstic ranks.

HONESTLY this is also why i wish ships had some kind of COMBAT power scaling, so if someone hosts on certain nodes, the ship has to have a minimum power level so tolerable in some way, whether its extremely durable or has VERY strong guns at the very least. Because if i have to choose between using likely very ineffective guns or get YEET`d easily in my archwing with a cygnus status based gun or can use a glitch to run my opticor vandal for hit scan shooting. Chances are I am going to choose the latter, since i can likely dispatch enemies much faster, then trying to use terrible guns that the host likely did not take to update, Or Likely was too lazy to farm the pustrels/titanium/carbides and the wait times needed to repair salvage guns or fabricate at the very least, SIGMA series guns. Since again, Vanilla weapons are not that good in later earth nodes and MKI guns are not that very good in Saturn nodes.

Quote

Side-note: Pulsar is only good for CC. The two best guns for DPS are Cryohpon first and Carcinnox second. But Cryophon is best in the pilot seat, and Carcinnox is best in the side-gun.

Crypo is only one of the best guns despite its range issue because it can slow down enemies, which considering how fast and annoying it is to aim with projectile weapons, is the best utility one would want, after the ability to just fire seeker tyro missiles to just YEET them dead. I have not tried to use the toxin guns much since if the guns are going to make enemies wildy fly around, making it harder to shoot THEM, plus if THAR guns are not strong enough to kill enemy fighters or atleast make them suicide ram into other fighters causing both to explode, they kind of are pointless to use then.

Never the less, you are still dealing with b.s. resources and if i can cause ships to take alot more damage(which is one of pulsar`s damage type effects) while being able to repeatedly and accurately shoot them, of course i am going to prefer pulsar as side guns. Aka why i instantly stop enjoying photor cause it requires me to constantly keep a beam on a fighter(which the pilot could easily move out of distance from), Which honestly should have some absurdly high status chance to just set ships on fire, cause them to melt with extreme DoT Damage, if they do not have the ability to ramp up the longer they are fired like some Overwatch Symmetra beam. Nor do they atleast have some TETHER feature so i could keep the beam more reliably on a enemy as long as my crosshairs stay close to the target.

Quote

We actually have the opposite problem. Ruptures and Fires actually don't mean anything for the ship. If you repair them it gives your ship some healing, but that's it. It's only breaches and electrical shorts that really matter (and the latter, obviously, less so). Seriously, try doing an Earth Proxima solo... you'll watch your ship charge to full HP and shields in spite of the fires and ruptures in the cargo hold.

When you have much higher health, then yes, that 300 or so max health drop is not an issue. Sadly until you get Vidar/Zekti series bulkheads/hullweaves, your ship is likely going to dip below 1000 health easy and die absurdly fast. Even after invincibility ends. Plus i am not a fan of abusing certain methods where i could have my ship entirely in flames and i can just loop it into some invulnerability cycle.

Granted it does not help that SHIELDS are once again, complete and utter garbage. They honestly need a feature where shields can recharge without taking damage, then ACTIVATE  and can take damage again, after it reaches 50-80% of its capacity, so it atleast has enough shield capacity to catch some shots, then constantly only needing to take one bullet to instantly get disabled again or perpetually continues to stay inactive cause your perpetually taking shots. 

Quote

I think if you do get enough fires, your ship will be slowly burning from the inside, but I usually don't reach that point anymore.

Again, this is mostly because D.E. released railjack in a very broken state, it should of been january or even february after they put ALOT more content of both fixes & depth(Not grindie systems but the ability to get useful & creative with the ship in positive ways) in place on it. I would of rather they snuck out a content drop which gave some phase 2 to liches, while also massively fixing alot of the issues of kuva liches at that game awards or whatever its called(since i lost interest in following those things constant), as the SURPRISE content drop. Very least if they massively fixed up Kuva liches and introduce a new tier to it such as vastly more interactivity, it would of been more interesting then using a  half broken `defense platform` that had guns glue to them, that we can fly around ourselves while playing a pseudo Archwing Exterminate mission game mode.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Avienas