The absence of randomized stats was what set Warframe apart

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Part of the appeal of Warframe for me was the fact that you didn't have to worry about grinding a mission a million times to get a god roll - once you got the gun you wanted, once you got the mods you wanted, that was it. You could move on and proceed with the game. It wasn't that bad of a grind. Once you finally got Heavy Caliber from the Orokin Derelict, you never had to try to get a better version of it. You never got stuck farming The Sergeant on Phobos for the perfect Mag Chassis after getting getting dozens of inferior versions. Sure, you might get a little stuck trying to get the item in the first place, but it was rarely an issue, and once you got it, you had it. Riven Mods were a surprise, but they are very optional, and at least have the neat feature of being able to pick which roll to keep when you reroll them. Also, since Kuva is so plentiful, it's not really that much of a grind anyway if you're hunting the perfect roll. Kuva weapons... well, aside from all the glaring, blatant flaws with the Lich system, you can at least replace the bonus with a better one if you find a better one, and more importantly, Kuva weapons are just a handful of special weapons that only exist as a special bonus to a certain branch of the game. Railjack stuff is very, very different.

Railjack's randomized stats are a big deal because they are a part of every aspect of Railjack. Reactors, weapons, and avionics (to a lesser degree) all have different variations, you can get 10 Bulkheads without getting a good Bulkhead. Imagine doing a ton of Void Fissures, finally getting that Loki Prime Systems, but it's a cruddy Lavan instead of a glorious Zetki. Beyond the Sigma Series, all Railjack components have totally random stats bonuses that cannot be transferred to already-owned versions, and they have wildly different ranges in their possible stat values. You could get dozens of terrible Reactors before you get one that has enough to put on all the Avionics you need. If Railjack worked like the rest of the game, there would be no randomization at all. Railjack isn't "in tune" with the rest of the game, it's an entirely different flavor of grind. The three different Houses should be all the variation there is. With the new system, Railjack is 10x of a bigger grind. The lack of random stats is a big reason why I prefer Warframe over other games like Destiny and Borderlands, but now it seems DE has decided to just copy their competitor's approach to game design. That makes me sad.

Edited December 27, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite Prime

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

You made a well reasoned argument. 

[WarmongerExtraordinare]

not to mention that these mk3 rando-parts have only 2% dropchance ON MISSION COMPLETION 

i completely gave up on the whole empyrean thing until they make it right, mr28 btw

[Vyra]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Part of the appeal of Warframe for me was the fact that you didn't have to worry about grinding a mission a million times to get a god roll

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Once you finally got Heavy Caliber from the Orokin Derelict, you never had to try to get a better version of it.

And thus the map fills with emptiness because no one ever needs to go back there....
 

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Riven Mods were a surprise, but they are very optional,

like almost everything in the game...
 

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Railjack is 10x of a bigger grind.

Welcome to Endgame...

none of the Drops are needed in any way...
you don't miss anything out not having them except for some extra damage...

i have none of these shiny things, void hole etc.. but i never needed them anyway...
we go as 2 people into the Veil. 1-5 shot enemies ( mostly 1-3 ) in space, ground combat is a bit more difficult but for that we have melee i guess...


So what are you complaining about?
Just avoid the stuff you don't like and focus on the things that appeal to you...
DE has reasons to add it the way it is...
 

[Awazx]

hace 23 minutos, (XB1)Erudite Prime dijo:

Part of the appeal of Warframe for me was the fact that you didn't have to worry about grinding a mission a million times to get a god roll - once you got the gun you wanted, once you got the mods you wanted, that was it. 

Not now. Welcome to Warframe 2.0

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Vyra, that picture of getting four Forma doesn't provide an argument to the quoted section you paired it with. 
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

And thus the map fills with emptiness because no one ever needs to go back there....

Yes, because there are no other Corrupted Mods at all, whether you want them for yourself or to trade for plat.
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

like almost everything in the game...

Railjack isn't, it's a central progression system and will become more and more integrated into the main game as time goes on. 
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

Welcome to Endgame...

I sure hope not.
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

none of the Drops are needed in any way...
you don't miss anything out not having them except for some extra damage...

You'd be surprised how much better "that extra damage" can be, not to mention how much more Avionics a god-roll Reactor can hold. As opposed to Riven Mods which are just gravy, Wreckage Bonuses are a very big deal. 
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

i have none of these shiny things, void hole etc.. but i never needed them anyway...
we go as 2 people into the Veil. 1-5 shot enemies ( mostly 1-3 ) in space, ground combat is a bit more difficult but for that we have melee i guess...

Sure, you can do it without all the bells and whistles, but you can beat the whole game with a Forma-less Excalibur and Braton too. You think that the Veil is the hardest stuff that Railjack is going to offer? I feel like the Veil is the equivalent of the T1 Void. 
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

So what are you complaining about?

Read my post, my criticisms are clearly laid-out.
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

Just avoid the stuff you don't like and focus on the things that appeal to you...

"Just don't play it if you don't like it" is the weakest response to criticism I can imagine, is this really what you're concluding your argument with?
 

16 minutes ago, Vyra said:

DE has reasons to add it the way it is...

Yeah, money. Also inflating the game with the grindiest content ever to make it seem like there's more to it than there really is.

P.S. You really need to lay off the ellipses. It made taking you seriously very challenging.

Edited December 27, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite Prime

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

16 minutes ago, Awazx said:

Not now. Welcome to Warframe 2.0

Yeah, I've noticed. The most recent updates have all been about adding more grind with less satisfying rewards - the Kuva Lich thing is testament to this. So many layers of RNG and hours of grind, all for a "pretty good" weapon, except you might just keep getting the same five weapons again and again, each with worse bonuses than the last time.

Edited December 27, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite Prime

[(XBOX)calvina]

Imagine if wreckage just had static stat rolls but you upgrade said stats with materials + duplicate wreckages. (Like, base Mk III Zekti reactor starts at 25 avi capacity, but you can upgrade it with dirac or RJ materials like titanium till it caps at 50 avi capacity, etc) This would actually make you feel like you've been working on your railjack, it's like getting an old car and slowly kitting out said car with new engine, wheels, etc overtime.

I don't see why they didn't do that in the first place as that's pretty much Warframe is, you get a thing, you get to upgrade it at your own leisure (Mods, weapons, etc) You didn't have to worry about random stat rolls in the first place.

 

Also, Hai Euridite, saw you on my RJ a couple times.

Edited December 27, 2019 by (XB1)calvina

[SneakyErvin]

For me the random stats was one of the things WF was missing and something I missed from other games when playing WF.

It is also one of those things that opens up for whole new areas when it comes to min-maxing and making builds unique. Want that Zetki shield with top rolls across the board in order to try and stay safe a bit better? Go for it! Want that Zetki shield with bottom of the barrel rolls in order to utilize the damage buff close to 24/7? Go for it!

The options are wider, the system gets deeper and you are encouraged to try out new methods.

You just have a very narrow way of looking at it. Not everyone wants that max health Bulkhead, because it doesnt work with their build, heck some dont even want Bulkhead at all because it hinders their build.

If there was no RNG in stats for RJ we would look at drops in the 0.02% area instead of 2% area for end of mission lavan/vidar rewards. The crewships would also have a far lower drop chance on lavan/vidar weapons. Personally I've had zero issues with the RJ RNG on armaments and components. I have built my Vidar guns that were a priority, my Zetki engine and shields aswell as a decent Vidar reactor. Now I'm just looking for materials to repair the remaining weapons while also looking for slightly better stats on the ones I've already repaired. But those that are repaired have more than enough stats to be acceptable weapons, same as my engines, shields and reactor.

Avionics have been so-so. I havent found a max potential bulkhead, but I dont really need nor will I be really able to fit it in with my build either. Well I can drop my last stand for it if I wanna go the tankier route, because the two just dont sync well. As for the other avionics the system has been good for me. Two weeks of farming decently regularly every day has gotten me what I need. I still have predator to farm for, since I havent been in Saturn Proxima after unlocking Veil really.

[Anduvriel]

That problem is entirely in your mind. 

You can craft everything from dojo with zero random stats and grind just mods which are not random at all, there are just 3 houses, each with its different version of the mod, but grind works the same as for heavy caliber, once you get the avionics from the house you want the grind has ended. 

You will say, but the opie damage from best weapons and almost no tradeoffs with best reactors i must have them. No you don't.

Imagine a game where the power creep has gone so nuts, that even the most powerfull enemies in it are oneshot not once, but 1000 times over and there is a lot of overdamage left.

This is a terrible place to create a fun experience. There is very limited fun in one shoting everything always and that state lasted for so long its really hard to change it. Every even slightest nerf community goes on high alert. It turned out that a big part of the community wants excatly this, to be overpowered beyond limits. 

DE want to please all of the groups that play warframe. So they are trying an idea, lets make an experience based on how we feel will be balanced. What we feel will provide challenge and most fun. And than add something for hardcores with opness to skip content. 

So normally you will have to actually think about the mods you put, you will have to shoot more than one bullet to kill something and so on. Lets call that the basis of railjack experience. You grab best dojo stuff, grab all the mods from missions and have fun. The cost of that experience will be the lowest of them all and it will not include any random stat grind. Just the usual warframe resource grind.

And thats how it works, how the base is set up. 

Now we have those hardcores to please. They will have everything in 2 weeks and will totally lose interest cause they will not feel powerful enough for those hours they dish out. Lets give them a grindfest that works in more hardcore games so they will feel more powerful than other groups, but will have to grind their lives for it. Thats what random stats are for. They are not only aquired as 2% reward (very rare in warframe), but also incorporate a skewed to bottom numbers, high range random stats that vary from utter shyt to ungodly. 

You can say you don't like that aproach, that you feel obliged to enter the grindfest, but you actually don't. I kinda want to see this "trial" to go through, to see how it pans out. Its been two weeks only, give it some time.. 

[Drachnyn]

For random rolled equipment to be a good time you need to get flooded with it. Borderlands gets away with it because loot is literally exploding out of enemies. RJ doesnt do that currently and that's what makes it feel so horrible. You finally get your 2% vidar reactor but actually you didnt because it's minimal roll and the game pretty much just pretended to give you something but didnt actually. The available variance is too high for the amount that drops. On top of that it's a really bad feeling if your squad finally gets a good reactor but unfortunately you werent lucky enough so yours is trash so you have to keep farming while everyone else is done. Curiosly this was a thing in the early times of warframe and DE agreed that it was bad and changed it. So now they made the same mistake but this time in space (same with the railjack's stamina bar).

The key difference to Borderlands and Diablo is that in those games the random loot you get is instantly usable. In warframe you have to spend resources, quite a lot actually on wreckage. Even worse you dont get all your resources back if you scrap it because you found a purely better version. Meaning you actually get punished for repairing a non optimal version. Either wreckage needs to have fixed stats or they need to drop in working condition and in greater amounts.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

I kinda agree. Those randoms stats give (some of) us things to do, but it's very artificial nonetheless. Like the obvious lazy choice to take in place of actually fighting the issue with hard work and more meaningful strategies.

Sadly though this is a fickle subject so I really can't complain much given the circumstances.

Edited December 27, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[Test-995]

The strongest weapons in railjack, void hole and mk3 missiles, aren't randomized at all.

[Serafim_94]

2 минуты назад, Test-995 сказал:

The strongest weapons in railjack, void hole and mk3 missiles, aren't randomized at all.

True. They are locked behind good old-fashioned 0.1% drop chance instead. It's like RJ combines best from both grinding worlds. Yay -_-

[AlendasNaro]

Friend of mine doesn't hugely appreciate the randomized stats but it does although in unwanted way for community lengthen the life span of the game. I do agree it is a bit of scummy grind the grind to get perfect roll but it does provide additional objective once you do get the mark 3 stuff. There is just one thing I agree with my friend on request to DE. Do not use this outside of railjack and do not use it too much within railjack. Already having this one aspect of grind for perfect roll is painful enough.

Edited December 27, 2019 by AlendasNaro

[Test-995]

28 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

True. They are locked behind good old-fashioned 0.1% drop chance instead. It's like RJ combines best from both grinding worlds. Yay -_-

And i forgot that you have to get at least decent reactor to make it work.

[Exodess]

I blew off the calls about the slippery-slope of Rivens back when they first introduced RNG to finalized stats. Now we have Kuva weapons and Railjack components. 

I concur that RNG determining one's stats is disruptive toward creative personal play and solutions. Unique builds and alt-itis determined by our choices rather than the game's are what attracted me to this game in the first place. It is extremely frustrating to have that power taken away by a slot machine.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Exodess

[Vox_Preliator]

Welcome to way back when Rivens were first introduced.  This is almost exactly my argument against them, and I was dismissed because people wanted their slot machines to make their weapons 0.2% more powerful than they already are if they hit the jackpot or pay an obscene amount of platinum to someone who did.

Weirdly, I'm actually pretty okay with Railjack's implementation, it's an entirely standalone system that began with randomized stats and is designed in such a way.  I only really have two issues with it: One is that Outriders commonly and only drop Zekti parts whlie Crewships rarely drop other parts (I think?  Maybe they also drop Zekti only, I could've sworn I got a Lavan part from one), and other parts are rare mission rewards which causes Zekti to be the vast majority of parts dropped which skews the whole "Get a bunch of random parts of all sorts of types and choose the ones you want to use" thing.  The other is the 12 hour wait on repairs, I don't even mind the repair cost or the 50% refund, because you aren't replacing parts often enough to make that loss significant, but the best way to build a different part is to dismantle your old part, leaving you without that part until it's finished repairing.

If there was a more even spread of House drops and the repair time was like a tenth or less of what it currently is, I don't think I'd have any qualms with this system.

[trst]

The problem is that over the years players have spoken very loud and very clearly as to what they're interested in when we get an update: rewards, and nothing else.

You can see this trend on Steam Charts where every update players would come in and most if not all would be gone within a month. Pair that with the discussions found on every social platform for the game (these forums, the subreddit, even from the WF partners, etc) where you're finding constant complaints of there being nothing to do and the glorious buzzword that is "content drought".

And people can't go bringing up the other buzzword of "sustainable content" because this trend continued regardless of what content the game got. Be it PvP, end-game content, the open worlds, anything people would get their rewards and be gone. Even when the content was exactly what the community wanted to be added. Even with Railjack which launched all of 22 days ago we've already had a lot of people hit cap Intrinsics, grid upgrades, finished the Veil, gotten the Shedu, etc yet within this group there are still people playing because they want their max reactor drop, if we didn't have those in the game then a lot of these people would have already stopped playing entirely and by next week we'd have hit "content drought" all over again.

Randomized stat rolls only exist to pad out gameplay, this isn't a secret. But Warframe as a live service with ongoing development needs player retention and the community has made it clear that they want more rewards. However much people might not want randomized rolls put into the game this is a win/win addition as far as DE should be concerned as it's both what they and the community wants.

[SordidDreams]

"We cAN't ChanGE IT nOw BECaUSe iT wOULDn't Be fAir tO PEOpLE WHO haVE AlReaDy spENt timE GrINDINg it".

I swear to god, DE....

Edited December 27, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Anduvriel]

5 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

If there was a more even spread of House drops and the repair time was like a tenth or less of what it currently is, I don't think I'd have any qualms with this system.

If it dropped from enemies the chance would have to be so low that condition overload would seem like a common drop for it to serve its purpose.

It is designed to be the carrot for the hardcore part of the community that will want to spent 100's of hours to get the best. Only the best count in that race.. The others are non existant in that race, they drop because something has to. 

12 hours might seem long, but if you scrap & repair just before logout, you should have it ready before login. 

[White_Matter]

Yes and no. 

I mean, it made the game consistent and less competitive for a while, but I can't deny the fact that the game was getting a bit too stale because there were a couple of meta weapons and that was pretty much it. Rivens changed the game a little, made it more interesting for sure. 

And I think randomized stats keep things more dynamic. But the problem is, they haven't tried to balance the game around the new random stat concept. It is the same game, with a different model. It doesn't work well.

Old model is : You spend X amount of time(usually alot) to get Y, and getting Y is the end of the road. 

With the new model, You still spend X amount of time(still alot) to get Y, but getting Y isn't the end of the road, because Y has different varaibles. It can be Y+1, Y-2, etc. You keep getting variations of Y's but the X hasn't changed. Meaning the whole process has become much more tedious. 

Solution is simple, reduce the grind so that people keep rolling(going for better variants) and not feel like they are wasting their life away.

De has been on the right path imo, but their execution has been bad lately. 

 

 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

35 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

"We cAN't ChanGE IT nOw BECaUSe iT wOULDn't Be faIr tO PEOpLE WHO haVE AlReaDy spENt timE GrINDINg it".

I swear to god, DE....

They don't say that when it's in order to use the nerf hammer, though. In that situation investment, effort and time instantly lose all meaning, ironically. lmao

[Lord-Childeric]

First of all, the only three components for what these random stats are important (or existing at all) are shields, engine and reactor (weapons differences like +x fire rate or +x damage are not that big of a deal and beside the manufacturer house base differences, which never change, it's just a little bonus with no real impact on gameplay). And the avionics are not randomized AT ALL, so keep calm everyone all is almost fine.

Now, for shields I'd say that a zekti roll with -3+ seconds on recharge time is a huge deal for survavibility, but not mandatory. Shield capacity and regeneration speed are useless in veil.

Good engine rolls are the least interesting thing you would farm for in RJ, but it's nice to gain 20% to 50% total speed in the end. Again, not mandatory and most of the time pointless. (drifting is doing the job with sigma engine already...)

Reactor, Oh my god yes there the random stats are a huge deal ^^ Farming vidar reactor for a 90+ roll is a big oof... But at least when it drops you are f**ing happy.

In the end, beside reactor random stats I don't see much of a lottery in RJ. MKIII sigma series are very good and offer enough to make the RJ able to handle veil missions. Weapons are just attached to a one stat riven like randomizer and avionics are just like mods and do not involve any kind of randomness. 

I just can't agree with OP...

Edited December 27, 2019 by Lord-Childeric
Typo

[Darklord_Tou]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

Part of the appeal of Warframe for me was the fact that you didn't have to worry about grinding a mission a million times to get a god roll - once you got the gun you wanted, once you got the mods you wanted, that was it. 

And then you get areas that becomes useless once you get all desired item from there.Which the community was asking to make items so you can revisit old areas.

And lets be honest no matter how fun/how amazing the gameplay you make no one will visit any mode that isnt rewarding and that doesnt just case for warframe.