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VoidArkhangel

Shall we lose the New War?

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On 2019-12-27 at 11:02 PM, (NSW)Badger said:

man. The Warframe universe really, really needs a Jean Luc Picard or a Harry Seldon...

uR a WiZurd HArrY Seldon...

Dont you mean Hari Seldon?

Sorry for the minor nitpick 😛 Just surprised to see a Foundation reference in the Warframe forums. Asimov should never be forgotten. 

Also... Ah! I see you too are a man of culture.

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11 hours ago, Olphalarepth said:

I don't see how DE could even introduce some sort of exile/running away from sentients

well I do 😃 we can't lose the war, but we can be put into a perpetual stalemate (like Lotus already did), and I am thinking about the only 'weakness' of Wally: it's assumed, and generally accepted, that Wally could not pass through The Void without some external conduit, which leads me to speculate that if all the Tenno are somehow transported back into it, they cannot leave it anymore.
Why? Because, yes, we have the same powers of Wally (though probably vastly reduced), but also the same limits:  if he cannot pass through the Void, we can't either.
Furthermore, this leads me to think that this could be tied to The Duviri Paradox.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I’ve thrown out there that I think that “Mother” is going to be a bit like the Sentient Death Star with a bit of Unicron thrown in.

If played right, the war will likely be about holding off the Sentient forces long enough to cut the head off the snake.

Hunhow might defect to save his daughter.

Everyone will want the Unum; the key to the war.

And we will find out which “family” Natah chooses and if she is being influenced or controlled.

I often wondered if the Sentients would have an “Orokin Debuff MaGuffin” that penalized primes and TENNO FRAMES would suddenly become the better choice.

Interesting food for thoughts. Unicron would be a bad matchup even for the Tenno: the capability to calculate present, past and future in real time... combined to an nigh omnipotent firepower… yup that'd be bad. You are a man of culture to know about Unicron.

Tenno are extremely, unredeemably (?) overpowered, which leaves fewer options to raise the stakes. A particular author that created an omnipotent character, solved the problem brilliantly: while his character is unfazed by everything, the people he cares about can still be hurt and killed, so the story revolves around more caring for others rather than for self.

Tenno slept for thousand years and we are still the pinnacle of warpower: by the words of non other than Helminth  itself, "We fear nothing but the Void demon", and to Sentients we are the embodiment of poison. The factions? we laugh at them, seriously there is nothing that can instil fear in us, except perhaps becoming what we fight.

What would happen if they were trapped into the Void and the Sentients conquers the Origin System? I think that would be much worse than just being 'defeated' (good luck killing ghosts).

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1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

Interesting food for thoughts. Unicron would be a bad matchup even for the Tenno: the capability to calculate present, past and future in real time... combined to an nigh omnipotent firepower… yup that'd be bad. You are a man of culture to know about Unicron.

Tenno are extremely, unredeemably (?) overpowered, which leaves fewer options to raise the stakes. A particular author that created an omnipotent character, solved the problem brilliantly: while his character is unfazed by everything, the people he cares about can still be hurt and killed, so the story revolves around more caring for others rather than for self.

Tenno slept for thousand years and we are still the pinnacle of warpower: by the words of non other than Helminth  itself, "We fear nothing but the Void demon", and to Sentients we are the embodiment of poison. The factions? we laugh at them, seriously there is nothing that can instil fear in us, except perhaps becoming what we fight.

What would happen if they were trapped into the Void and the Sentients conquers the Origin System? I think that would be much worse than just being 'defeated' (good luck killing ghosts).

I would argue against the idea that the Tenno can't be fazed. We may have won in the Old War, but it's also made clear it was a hard-fought victory. The Gara legend shows that a Tenno can't hope to stand against powerful Sentients in any meaningful capacity - Gara was able to hold her own, but barely. And the Sentients have not just rebuilt, they've upgraded and adapted to Tenno combat strategies - assuming that DE pulls on the Amalgam and Chimera threads, they've added void-resistant hybrids to their ranks, which might not be as strong but can resist the poison, thus letting them better win battles of attrition. And of course, they have access to the person who basically re-taught the Tenno their entire combat philosophy, or in other words, somebody who could predict most, if not all of the moves we make.

Plus, whilst it's easy to assume we basically run the system, we don't. Even our most brazen attacks are still only blips on the radar. The Grineer empire or the Corpus would beat us in an all-out war, since they have the numbers that they can replenish, whereas with Tenno, any lost Operator is lost forever. Simply put, we win all the time because we engineer situations where losing is unlikely. We pick the battles, we pick the time and place, and we pick the targets. Remember Eyes of Blight? Yes, in reality that was scripted, but it is an example of what happens if the Grineer empire pulls its finger out and actually organises a coordinated strike on Tenno installations. Same likely applies to the Corpus. And the Sentients? The bigger Sentients are powerful enough to at least warrant a 1:1 fight, and are actually unified enough to make such coordinated moves. 

That's not to say I think we'll lose, just due to the classic end of the world problem of unrealisable stakes. But I do think that the Sentients pose more of a threat than people might think.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)JayCeeV3 said:

uR a WiZurd HArrY Seldon...

Dont you mean Hari Seldon?

Sorry for the minor nitpick 😛 Just surprised to see a Foundation reference in the Warframe forums. Asimov should never be forgotten. 

Also... Ah! I see you too are a man of culture.

yup, it's Hari. Must have been an autocorrect or oversight. Though to be fair to myself I often refer to him as "Raven" Seldon… so... yeah. That will be my excuse ;) 

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Let us take a moment to analyze the situation. Last time we had the full backing of an Empire so advanced that they managed to get the lines between science/magic, mortals/"gods" really blurred. The system was unified (infested autism aside), the Tenno were also at the height of their power (as far as numbers go) and yet.. we barely managed.

Now we got no sugar daddy giving us golden toys so each Tenno has to build from scratch their own arsenal, everyone hates everyone and everything, since there's no hierarchy among us organization on a system-wide scale will be "challenging", it also looks like they have found a way to partially negate their void weakness, and mom is going through a midlife crisis.

In short, if I were a betting man I would instead use my money to buy a ship capable of leaving this place. The Duviri Paradox though could give us something the sentients are not expecting.

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1 hour ago, Valok said:

 since there's no hierarchy among us organization on a system-wide scale will be "challenging",

 

We don't need a hierarchy- we can easily organize horizontally. In fact, I'm pretty sure a hierarchy wouldn't work because no one would be willing to take orders from someone they don't know and have no real connection with. The Ostron and the Fortunites have already shown how anarchy can work in the warframe universe- tight knit, distrustful of outsiders until they prove themselves willing to help the collective. Honestly, other than spacemom I doubt there is a single person every Tenno would get behind. Maybe Clem, but he certainly won't be able to make the speeches necessary to draw the appropriate crowds. Maybe Nora, but she seems more interested in stirring up trouble than in organizing an actual movement- like most talk hosts in our own time, I should hasten to add. TLDR: the Tenno don't need a leader, but they do need to take responsibility. We left home, so to speak, when Mom left. Now its time for us to stand on our own, together, or perish. And before you say that anarchy could never work in a military unit look at the Revolutionary Army of Catalonia, which held an area of over 7 million people with anarchist ideals for quite awhile until they were crushed by Franco and the rest of the capitalists. In such an organization leadership was based upon a democratic vote, and was revocable at any time. Same is true for anarchist collectives across the world. 

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Considering the anime references we will get a requiem item to power up or a 3 year timeskip ooor become half sentient idk, i stoped expecting stuff months ago

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21 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I would argue against the idea that the Tenno can't be fazed. We may have won in the Old War, but it's also made clear it was a hard-fought victory. The Gara legend shows that a Tenno can't hope to stand against powerful Sentients in any meaningful capacity - Gara was able to hold her own, but barely. And the Sentients have not just rebuilt, they've upgraded and adapted to Tenno combat strategies - assuming that DE pulls on the Amalgam and Chimera threads, they've added void-resistant hybrids to their ranks, which might not be as strong but can resist the poison, thus letting them better win battles of attrition. And of course, they have access to the person who basically re-taught the Tenno their entire combat philosophy, or in other words, somebody who could predict most, if not all of the moves we make.

Plus, whilst it's easy to assume we basically run the system, we don't. Even our most brazen attacks are still only blips on the radar. The Grineer empire or the Corpus would beat us in an all-out war, since they have the numbers that they can replenish, whereas with Tenno, any lost Operator is lost forever. Simply put, we win all the time because we engineer situations where losing is unlikely. We pick the battles, we pick the time and place, and we pick the targets. Remember Eyes of Blight? Yes, in reality that was scripted, but it is an example of what happens if the Grineer empire pulls its finger out and actually organises a coordinated strike on Tenno installations. Same likely applies to the Corpus. And the Sentients? The bigger Sentients are powerful enough to at least warrant a 1:1 fight, and are actually unified enough to make such coordinated moves. 

That's not to say I think we'll lose, just due to the classic end of the world problem of unrealisable stakes. But I do think that the Sentients pose more of a threat than people might think.

I think we are missing the point here, so I'll try to be as concise as possible:

- Gara: among all the choices that could be done to support the argument of 'Tenno vs Sentients going bad', the story of Gara supports the opposite. A single tiny Warframe destroyed a mega gigantic uber Sentient that ruled over everything in sight, whose pieces scattered across the Plains are those we fight every night.

- Amalgams: really? those things you oneshot with secondary unmodded weapon? next.

- Blips on the radar: we are ninja, and we do ninja stuff. Surgical precision, short mission time, few/no witnesses.

- lost Operator: how do you lose a ghost? just out of curiosity...

----------------------------

You do make some valid points though, which I prefer to focus on:

Tenno are an elite corp, but are they capable of becoming an army? 
Let's assume they can become an army: what kind of hierarchy do they have?
If they have a hierarchy, who's in charge?
But more importantly: who is the strategist?

I think that when it comes to violence, Tenno are the apex predator in the cosmo, but they lack everything else. They have just been lied, used and abused for thousand years, all they know is deception, and we -players- can barely distinguish truth from visions.

At this point the real question should be: does the cosmo really need us?
 

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9 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- Gara: among all the choices that could be done to support the argument of 'Tenno vs Sentients going bad', the story of Gara supports the opposite. A single tiny Warframe destroyed a mega gigantic uber Sentient that ruled over everything in sight, whose pieces scattered across the Plains are those we fight every night.

No she didn't. The Unum provided her with a bomb that blew it up. Whenever she fought it head on she failed miserably.

10 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- Amalgams: really? those things you oneshot with secondary unmodded weapon? next.

Considering a large part of my point is that a degree of gameplay/story segregation exists, that the power level displayed in game is not 1:1 with how it would exist in-universe. Lech Kril has supposedly destroyed multiple Tenno clans, most likely through the legions under his command. Not only is that impossible in game but wouldn't make sense with his level and the level of Martian Grineer. There's also the Razorback - presumably one could be destroyed canonically by the immense, incalculable power of the void or a big enough gun, but no amount of firepower will drop its shields until you use a Bursa because game mechanics.

In other words, Amalgams, being presented as stronger than regular troops, are closer to Sentient power level than they are in-game, because balancing has been royally screwed up at this point.

13 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- Blips on the radar: we are ninja, and we do ninja stuff. Surgical precision, short mission time, few/no witnesses.

Yeah, that's the other large part of my point. That's why we're so successful. If we were somehow forced into a conventional military battle Tenno would likely have at least a considerable chance of losing and have in the past with eyes of blight, because the Grineer could use all sorts of larger weapons and artillery to deal with us.

18 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- lost Operator: how do you lose a ghost? just out of curiosity...

Again, Operator's popping back into their frame is a gameplay mechanic, because the price of your Operator dying matching the lore  price in any way (i.e. death) would, at least in DE's mind, be severely unfun. In fact there's no way the gameplay and lore consequences can match 100% because DE aren't going to delete your account, which is what would happen if an Operator really died. Think Destiny when player guardians die in dark zones or died in the Vault of Glass due to getting literally deleted from reality.

As for if they're ghosts, Operators have a habit of getting choked or strangled. Both before and after their awakening - we see it in the Second Dream and then again the Sacrifice. Not only are they being physically interacted with both times, but last time I checked, ghosts don't need to breath. So, practically speaking, any situation that would kill a normal human, if applied to a pinned down Operator, would kill them outright.

Unlikely and difficult? Yes. But it would happen, gradually dwindling Tenno forces whilst Grineer forces are always being replenished. Same seems to apply to Corpus, whether through a steady stream of newly indoctrinated people or technologically purpose-bred crewmen.

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17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No she didn't. The Unum provided her with a bomb that blew it up. Whenever she fought it head on she failed miserably.

Considering a large part of my point is that a degree of gameplay/story segregation exists, that the power level displayed in game is not 1:1 with how it would exist in-universe. Lech Kril has supposedly destroyed multiple Tenno clans, most likely through the legions under his command. Not only is that impossible in game but wouldn't make sense with his level and the level of Martian Grineer. There's also the Razorback - presumably one could be destroyed canonically by the immense, incalculable power of the void or a big enough gun, but no amount of firepower will drop its shields until you use a Bursa because game mechanics.

In other words, Amalgams, being presented as stronger than regular troops, are closer to Sentient power level than they are in-game, because balancing has been royally screwed up at this point.

Yeah, that's the other large part of my point. That's why we're so successful. If we were somehow forced into a conventional military battle Tenno would likely have at least a considerable chance of losing and have in the past with eyes of blight, because the Grineer could use all sorts of larger weapons and artillery to deal with us.

Again, Operator's popping back into their frame is a gameplay mechanic, because the price of your Operator dying matching the lore  price in any way (i.e. death) would, at least in DE's mind, be severely unfun. In fact there's no way the gameplay and lore consequences can match 100% because DE aren't going to delete your account, which is what would happen if an Operator really died. Think Destiny when player guardians die in dark zones or died in the Vault of Glass due to getting literally deleted from reality.

As for if they're ghosts, Operators have a habit of getting choked or strangled. Both before and after their awakening - we see it in the Second Dream and then again the Sacrifice. Not only are they being physically interacted with both times, but last time I checked, ghosts don't need to breath. So, practically speaking, any situation that would kill a normal human, if applied to a pinned down Operator, would kill them outright.

Unlikely and difficult? Yes. But it would happen, gradually dwindling Tenno forces whilst Grineer forces are always being replenished. Same seems to apply to Corpus, whether through a steady stream of newly indoctrinated people or technologically purpose-bred crewmen.

- Gara: last time I checked, we weren't arguing on 'how' things happened, Gara blew up the big baddy and that's it. (also before blowing it up, let's underline she kept it at bay, the same was done by the Sentinel AFTER that incident, and without any bomb)
- rather than story segregation, I'd worry more about story distortion: so far we, both as Tenno and players, have only been subject to deception of the highest level. What 'truth' really is, we completely ignore.
- Yes that's correct, Warframes can be destroyed with enough firepower. But Operators change Warframes like we do with clothes, so that's not a big deal.
- "Operator's popping back into their frame is a gameplay mechanic": nah, aside the fact that they can literally pass through enemies as well, I prefer to accept the visual consistency tied to the lore. Until officially stated otherwise by DE, I'll assume that all kids died thousand years ago in the incident, and exist solely as Void manifestation (by the words of Wally himself: "without me, you are nothing". Transference: do you think it's about transfering a physical body into matter? think again (Rell).
Getting choked: please, please let's contextualize. The kid just woke up from a thousand years dream in which he was convinced he was a warframe, he has not unlocked any focus (he is in his weakest form) and suddenly someone tries to harm him. He is still thinking with the illusion of being a physical warframe. Why we never see the Stalker even targeting the Operator after you press 5 and enter Void Mode?
You make some valid points about the hierarchy and army, so those may really be keys to losing or winning the war as 'faction', but individually there isn't much that poses a threat to us.

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45 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- Gara: last time I checked, we weren't arguing on 'how' things happened, Gara blew up the big baddy and that's it. (also before blowing it up, let's underline she kept it at bay, the same was done by the Sentinel AFTER that incident, and without any bomb)

Point being she couldn't do it on her own. Gara couldn't beat the Sentient in a straight fight. Even keeping it at bay is considerably less impressive considering we also know it was sincerely holding back for attrition reasons (also being alone and unable to replenish itself) and couldn't even attack half the time due to its sunlight allergy or whatever. Once it actually went all-in, Gara didn't hold a candle. The Unum put up the barriers as well.

45 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- "Operator's popping back into their frame is a gameplay mechanic": nah, aside the fact that they can literally pass through enemies as well, I prefer to accept the visual consistency tied to the lore. Until officially stated otherwise by DE, I'll assume that all kids died thousand years ago in the incident, and exist solely as Void manifestation (by the words of Wally himself: "without me, you are nothing". Transference: do you think it's about transfering a physical body into matter? think again (Rell).
Getting choked: please, please let's contextualize. The kid just woke up from a thousand years dream in which he was convinced he was a warframe, he has not unlocked any focus (he is in his weakest form) and suddenly someone tries to harm him. He is still thinking with the illusion of being a physical warframe. Why we never see the Stalker even targeting the Operator after you press 5 and enter Void Mode?

Choking Umbra chokes out the player early in the quest, and the Tenno is clearly suffering as a result both during and after the process. None of your points apply to this situation - the Operator clearly needs to breath.

Transference: obviously it has a considerable psychic component, but just because they can stick their consciousness into something else, permanently or otherwise, doesn't mean they don't need a 'default' meat suit when they're not using transference for one reason or another, and that killing said meat suit won't kill the inhabitant of it like any other human. Remember that Rell dies after Harrow is destroyed.

 

Ultimately, your assumption is headcanon. It might not be explicitly deconfirmed, but without explicit confirmation either, we must assume for the purposes of a lore discussion that Operators are alive.

45 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

- Yes that's correct, Warframes can be destroyed with enough firepower. But Operators change Warframes like we do with clothes, so that's not a big deal.

For the purposes of a single battle though, it would matter, because we probably couldn't replace the Warframe in the fight in a timely manner. In the time period for us toe recover the landing craft, switch frame and weapons and redeploy, the Grineer could also reinforce.

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Frankly, as things stand, The Tenno lack every advantage and resource that is needed to fight a war.  There isn't one single strength left to the Tenno that provide a actual advantage. The Void powers only go so far as to make Sentients Killable, and that's the modum of any war.  In short, this is a loss.  We lack numbers, mobility, power, and staying power.

What strikes to me is the Void however.  I do think the Sentients will win.  I hope they do truthfully.  Because this will drive the Tenno into the wall, and into the Man in the Wall.  He who gave us our powers and ultimately can control every aspect of our bodies and psyches at will.  He also is the only thing that has not LIED to us.

With Warframe taking on a Family perspective, I know Steve talked about Lotus balancing her old and new families during the New War, but if she is Mother, then The Man is Father, and the Source of the power to fight the Sentients.  Remember this fact, We don't have Void Powers, we are Extensions of the Void itself, and beholden to it.  Our powers function by way of being a gift, and we are changed because of the Zariman. 

Honestly I hope we get some proper story telling in the New War, and more cinematics. We don't get enough for a story endevour the scale of the New War because DE doesn't make these Quests repeatable for some blasted reason.

Anyway, way I see it, we lose. We will retreat personally, with the Man in the Wall saving the Orbiter and the Operator + Ordis, and delivering us likely unto the Duviri Paradox where in we are at the mercy of Father.

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If the price is right... I'm down to lose. I hope the stalker shows up at the last second to steal the killing blow and can finally get his revenge. The poor guy needs a win.

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6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Point being she couldn't do it on her own. Gara couldn't beat the Sentient in a straight fight. Even keeping it at bay is considerably less impressive considering we also know it was sincerely holding back for attrition reasons (also being alone and unable to replenish itself) and couldn't even attack half the time due to its sunlight allergy or whatever. Once it actually went all-in, Gara didn't hold a candle. The Unum put up the barriers as well.

an ant holding back a tank seems a disproportionate display of strength on the ant side. But to each its own...

Choking Umbra chokes out the player early in the quest, and the Tenno is clearly suffering as a result both during and after the process. None of your points apply to this situation - the Operator

clearly needs to breath.


you clearly are assuming things, but feel free to do so

Remember that Rell dies after Harrow is destroyed.


I can just repeat that they all already died long ago? for all we know Rell can just reappear at any given time as whatever he is now (spirit, void particles, potatoes...)

Ultimately, your assumption is headcanon. It might not be explicitly deconfirmed, but without explicit confirmation either, we must assume for the purposes of a lore discussion that Operators are alive.


that seems a slightly biased statement, but I am perfectly okay with you thinking otherwise

For the purposes of a single battle though, it would matter, because we probably couldn't replace the Warframe in the fight in a timely manner. In the time period for us toe recover the landing craft, switch frame and weapons and redeploy, the Grineer could also reinforce.

this is absolutely true, but let's point out that a single Warframe would easily take down single-handedly those reinforcements, thus making them irrelevant in the big picture

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9 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

an ant holding back a tank seems a disproportionate display of strength on the ant side. But to each its own...

An ant that tries and only fails with some effort instead of miserably is still a dead ant. Besides, as I discuss later, Gara held advantages over the Sentients that we no longer have the luxury of having.

11 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

you clearly are assuming things, but feel free to do so

Notice the deep breath in? The raspy voice indicating damage to the larynx - an organ that requires air passing through to function? Panting? Further coughing as he re-inflates his crushed windpipe? Also at 11:23 where the Operator complains of 'not being able to breath'. Whilst it is possible that it was a result of the transference somehow, it would definitely seem like they do, in fact, need to breath, as they do so. In fact, since panting 'oh S*** I need to breath' sensation is a response to a build-up of Carbon Dioxide in the blood, and Carbon Dioxide is produced as a side-product of respiration, the fact that they have such a reaction to being unable to breath indicates their bodies are respiring.

16 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

I can just repeat that they all already died long ago? for all we know Rell can just reappear at any given time as whatever he is now (spirit, void particles, potatoes...)

Still headcanon, so I'm not sure what you want to achieve by doing so.

25 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

that seems a slightly biased statement, but I am perfectly okay with you thinking otherwise

I could repeat that Operators are secretly dormice running human flesh mech suits, and that I will continue to assume so until I get explicit deconfirmation, but that would be headcanon, and since there is no evidence - and indeed in this case, evidence to the contrary - it would basically be injecting false support for a assertion.

Quote

this is absolutely true, but let's point out that a single Warframe would easily take down single-handedly those reinforcements, thus making them irrelevant in the big picture

In the situations we normally engage in, yes.

However, on an actual battlefield, there's a variety of other things that could deal that much damage to a Warframe, or even a group of them, before they even reached the other side. Bear in mind, most of our missions take place already inside the enemy base, or are ambushes against smaller pockets of enemies. However, in a full-scale battle out in the open, the enemy would have access to artillery, air support and orbital bombardments. Depending on if we were invading them or the other way round, they could also plant landmines or other traps, set up temporary defensive structures and otherwise dig in. Any of those wouldn't cause there to be an exchange, but instead just drain from the Tenno - meaning that whilst the Tenno are replenishing their forces, the Grineer can add to theirs. The Tenno, however, have no access to such things. The Railjack is an interceptor, and we don't lug around artillery. We're ultimately special forces infantry units, who specialise in forcing infantry fighting and using ambush tactics. But on a tactical, large-scale front? The Grineer, the Sentients, the Corpus don't need to just use infantry.

Moreover, it's not like we could get access to the required infrastrucutre in a hurry. The Grineer and Corpus have access to planet-wide networks of large-scale production, so we'd need to take production facilities to be able to engage. But in the process of taking and maintaining it long enough for it to switch production over to manufacturing Tenno munitions, the enemy will know and can take it back. We can gain territory fast but gaining and maintaining territory are vastly different things. That's literally the Sentient's main weakness, and what kept back the Eidolon Sentient so long. It couldn't win a battle of attrition with Gara, nor risk losing most of its forces for any further conquest, because it had a limited supply of fragments and fighters. The same applies too us now, especially against the Corpus and Grineer.  Think of it like a game of Team Fortress 2 or Call of Duty or Battlefront or Halo or so on, but with a new rule. One team gets a buff but can't respawn, the others behave as they always do. The game type doesn't matter, and there's no time limit. Which team wins?

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I hope the duviri paradox will shed more light on the tennos past and result in them gaining a massive power boost.  And hopefully a better character creator.

I want sexy adult female operaters please.

More creative freedom for all. Heck give us an age slider. And sliders down to the last pixel.

Let us whip out psi protoss style melee weapons and fire off void kamehamehas. Tenno have infinite potential to be really powerful.

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14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Notice the deep breath in?

have you ever dreamt of drowning? or falling? try taking a look at 'deep hypnosis ', you may get food for thoughts if anything.

so I'm not sure what you want to achieve by doing so.


I'm just allergic to taking things at face value, that's it

I could repeat that Operators are secretly dormice running human flesh mech suits, and that I will continue to assume so until I get explicit deconfirmation, but that would be headcanon, and since there is no evidence - and indeed in this case, evidence to the contrary - it would basically be injecting false support for a assertion.


I could point out the immense irony of this statement, but I won't

In the situations we normally engage in, yes.

However, on an actual battlefield, there's a variety of other things that could deal that much damage to a Warframe, or even a group of them, before they even reached the other side. Bear in mind, most of our missions take place already inside the enemy base, or are ambushes against smaller pockets of enemies. However, in a full-scale battle out in the open, the enemy would have access to artillery, air support and orbital bombardments. Depending on if we were invading them or the other way round, they could also plant landmines or other traps, set up temporary defensive structures and otherwise dig in. Any of those wouldn't cause there to be an exchange, but instead just drain from the Tenno - meaning that whilst the Tenno are replenishing their forces, the Grineer can add to theirs. The Tenno, however, have no access to such things. The Railjack is an interceptor, and we don't lug around artillery. We're ultimately special forces infantry units, who specialise in forcing infantry fighting and using ambush tactics. But on a tactical, large-scale front? The Grineer, the Sentients, the Corpus don't need to just use infantry.

Moreover, it's not like we could get access to the required infrastrucutre in a hurry. The Grineer and Corpus have access to planet-wide networks of large-scale production, so we'd need to take production facilities to be able to engage. But in the process of taking and maintaining it long enough for it to switch production over to manufacturing Tenno munitions, the enemy will know and can take it back. We can gain territory fast but gaining and maintaining territory are vastly different things. That's literally the Sentient's main weakness, and what kept back the Eidolon Sentient so long. It couldn't win a battle of attrition with Gara, nor risk losing most of its forces for any further conquest, because it had a limited supply of fragments and fighters. The same applies too us now, especially against the Corpus and Grineer.  Think of it like a game of Team Fortress 2 or Call of Duty or Battlefront or Halo or so on, but with a new rule. One team gets a buff but can't respawn, the others behave as they always do. The game type doesn't matter, and there's no time limit. Which team wins?


I agree with all of this, except the Railjack has been introduced without Tenno 'remembering' about it, and Wally only knows how many other war marvels were/will be at our disposal: colossal Vandal Warships, gigantic armoured Orokin tanks, 'heavy' warframes (designed for war stuff instead of ninja stuff) and so on, well you get the picture

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4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

I'm just allergic to taking things at face value, that's it

There's a difference between not taking things at face value and coming up with an entirely baseless theory, declaring you won't believe otherwise until explicitly told it's not true, then presenting it as fact. If a deviation from the norm is suggested - in this case that characters that by all means appear to be alive are in actuality dead - then it is on you to provide evidence as such, not DE or anyone else against it.

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

have you ever dreamt of drowning? or falling? try taking a look at 'deep hypnosis ', you may get food for thoughts if anything.

If a dream theory is the best evidence you got, then I'm afraid that's not enough. Dream theories rarely have any basis in fact, explaining any inconsistencies through 'it's a dream'. They're considered the ultimate cop-out amongst theorycrafting communities, and aren't usually taken seriously without considerable evidence. Again, whilst this MIGHT still work if it was just after the Second Dream, the Sacrifice occurs after several years of the Operator being conscious, self-aware and having actively recognised the Warframe as a separate entity numerous times.

Occams Razor. If a character is mobile, needs to do things to sustain life (in this case, breathing), and avoid things that would cease life (choking, poison, bleed out, radiation, viral infection), then reasonably it can be assumed that the character is alive, and this is taken as granted, just as it is taken as granted that a person referred to in present tense, or that is standing and wandering around in front of you, is alive. Deviations therein require evidence beyond speculation.

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

I could point out the immense irony of this statement, but I won't

Please, enlighten me.

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

I agree with all of this, except the Railjack has been introduced without Tenno 'remembering' about it, and Wally only knows how many other war marvels were/will be at our disposal: colossal Vandal Warships, gigantic armoured Orokin tanks, 'heavy' warframes (designed for war stuff instead of ninja stuff) and so on, well you get the picture

Maybe. But again, in lieu of evidence of their existence, it's pure speculation.

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18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

There's a difference between not taking things at face value and coming up with an entirely baseless theory, declaring you won't believe otherwise until explicitly told it's not true, then presenting it as fact. If a deviation from the norm is suggested - in this case that characters that by all means appear to be alive are in actuality dead - then it is on you to provide evidence as such, not DE or anyone else against it.

you are basically stating that since you don't like my theory it must necessary be wrong and THEN you are assigning to me the 'burden of proof'.

If a dream theory is the best evidence you got, then I'm afraid that's not enough.


to me, the monologue during the Ropalolyst mission has probably a different value than it has for you.

Deviations therein require evidence beyond speculation.


there will never be enough evidence to counter a full denial, so why even bother?

Maybe. But again, in lieu of evidence of their existence, it's pure speculation.


the evidence is right there. There was no railjack until the last update and then poof we 'remembered' we always had it at our disposal. The evidence of a plot device meant to recover 'old forgotten arsenal' at the disposal of the player. This time is the RJ, next time what will it be?

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1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

you are basically stating that since you don't like my theory it must necessary be wrong and THEN you are assigning to me the 'burden of proof'.

nah he just said that your theory is just that - a theory - and you were trying to push it as a lore main canon - not sure if that was your intent, but you did sound in such a way.

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

there will never be enough evidence to counter a full denial, so why even bother?

problematic argument used in here - for a "full denial" in common meaning to exist, there needs to be a proofs towards something that is being denied - there is no proofs in warframe that would support your theory consistently, and there are things that can be taken as proofs against your theory - proofs which you attempted to dismiss by providing more theories.... tbh between you and that other guy I'd say the one that seems more in denial to me is You.

 

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

the evidence is right there. There was no railjack until the last update and then poof we 'remembered' we always had it at our disposal. The evidence of a plot device meant to recover 'old forgotten arsenal' at the disposal of the player. This time is the RJ, next time what will it be?

firstly - railjack poping out of nowhere is no evidence that there is anything "real" beyond that that wally can provide us with more things we "didn't remember about".

it's a precedence, not proof. It happened once, it could happen again but it does not mean that it WILL happen again.

Secondly there is no in-game dialogue I'd be aware off implying that tenno somehow suddenly remembered that "we always had railjacks at our disposal" - More so - dialogues present in-game implies rather that railjack interceptors were primarily crewed by Dax soldiers - not tenno, not warframes - Dax crews.

 

and here is simple explanation to why we didn't "remember" about railjacks before the update - there was simply no reason to have them - all tools we had was more than sufficient for our needs. But now with sentient threat looming all over us again, it would be handy to have something that can actually stand toe-to-toe with enemy capital ships, that could be used efficiently with a crew size comparable to usual tenno squad - oh look, orokin had such a ship in their disposal, let's try and see if we can rebuild them.

 

And by the way that explanation is more consistent with what's in the game from both written lore and actions you take to even unlock "craft a railjack" quest, than just assuming that wally will keep giving us "ancient forgotten weapons" for every problem we face.

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1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

you are basically stating that since you don't like my theory it must necessary be wrong and THEN you are assigning to me the 'burden of proof'.

No, burden of proof is automatically assigned to the person who suggests a theory. That's how this works. 

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

to me, the monologue during the Ropalolyst mission has probably a different value than it has for you.

Whether it does or doesn't is irrelevant, you still have to give evidence more than saying 'It's a dream', especially since it still being a dream or us still having residual effects of the dream after we have ostensibly woken up and have been for years itself requires evidence to support it.

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

there will never be enough evidence to counter a full denial, so why even bother?

Because that which is presented without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. Without evidence, it's just idle speculation without any solid basis in the canon narrative. I can completely deny your theory because you have simply presented its existence. You have given no reason for me to believe it, no reason for me to think it may be true, so why should I think it be true? This is amplified by the fact that there is evidence to the contrary of your theory - I have reason to believe Operators are alive, because there are accounts of them dying and they appear to behave like living organisms within the bounds of suspension of disbelief.

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

the evidence is right there. There was no railjack until the last update and then poof we 'remembered' we always had it at our disposal. The evidence of a plot device meant to recover 'old forgotten arsenal' at the disposal of the player. This time is the RJ, next time what will it be?

No it isn't. The fact we now have a Railjack is evidence of the existence of a Railjack. It grants the possibility of there being more, but is not itself evidence that there is more. Correlation, not causation.

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11 minutes ago, Elenortirie said:

nah he just said that your theory is just that - a theory - and you were trying to push it as a lore main canon - not sure if that was your intent, but you did sound in such a way.

I'm sorry both of You feel that way, I tried to state many times that my point of view is personal and everyone can freely keep his/her own, so I don't really see how the 'me pushing narrative' can even be assumed, but hey whatever /shrugs

for a "full denial" in common meaning to exist, there needs to be a proofs towards something that is being denied


well, try to see things from my point of view for just a moment: we see people living thousand years, not aging, passing through matter, being capable of transferring inside other creatures' consciousness leaving no traces of their physical body (IF there is any), traveling any distance at the speed of thought (transference from Orbiter), being unkillable (Operator just respawn endlessly, and is clearly shown in a 'dreaming' state in the loading screen always with no exceptions), and we are also shown that Operators often continue to think with the mind of their warframe (see: The Sacrifice, when Wally visits, the Operator speaks as if he killed the Dax's son)............ and after all the above mentioned things are established facts, I see people supporting the idea that Operators are normal living creatures: well, at least I start to ask some questions that to me seem legit.
Then again, I genuinely hope DE will someday step in and clarify how things really are leaving no room for any sort of interpretation (it would be less sad if we weren't just ghosts, so I am all up for it).

firstly - railjack poping out of nowhere is no evidence that there is anything "real" beyond that that wally can provide us with more things we "didn't remember about".

it's a precedence, not proof. It happened once, it could happen again but it does not mean that it WILL happen again.

guess what, archeology is based on that principle: "we found a relic digging here, can MAYBE happen again?".

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