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Graive

Short Hydroid changes request

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7 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Be nice if had a bonus/secret passive that allows him to swim in the water. Maybe while using his undertow and tidal wave abilities. But a watery frame not being able to go into the water just seems weird. Similar to revenant walking in radiated water. Or Gauss Mach rushing across it. 

I appreciate the suggestion and could see something like extra speed while in sharkwing as an extra passive being useful. Even though I see him being able to swim as being thematically appropriate I do have a few genuine questions (not sarcastic) on how you think it should work.

What benefit does swimming vs moving about actually have in game? Is it just an extra step to killing enemies or serve a purpose?

Would it just be an animation change while using undertow and tidal wave? 

I know @kapn655321's rework has a mode which after casting undertow you go into a separate water environment, is that what you were thinking of?

 

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On 2020-01-18 at 12:42 PM, Graive said:

You definitely may! I appreciate the constructive feedback. I think there are 3 main parts to the barrage problem:

1 the targeting of enemies within the cast circle

2 the location explosions occur when enemies aren't within the circle and

3 the speed at which armor is reduced when the augment is equipped

Problem 1 is AI related, it's taking the location of enemies within the mission, whereas problem 2 is non-AI, where explosions are set down randomly. I think your suggestions successfully address problem 1. Elements that I specifically like are: that it specifies the number of projectiles are power strength dependent, that those projectiles are divided among enemies not simply within the circle, and how it's using shattering impact. I think I understand why you're making shattering impact dependent on power strength, but feel something scaling on the enemy level or armor amount may be more beneficial (I recall corroding barrage already does something similar to this since its' armor reduction is percentile based, but I'd need to double check). I'm assuming multishot refers to the number of subhits each projectile issues? If so I like this suggestion too. I know I've said I don't want to submit AI suggestions, but seeing as how I've made 1 suggestion before (my proposed damage buff based on absorption of incoming damage) I'd very much like to update with what you'd suggested here. Honestly, this is gold.

With problem 2 the ability shouldn't set random sections within the circle where shots occur. Shot location should be predictable and currently it's not. This has been the part of the problem I've been struggling to find good solutions to. An easy AI related fix would be to just make these shots act as mines, and target the next enemy in the circle. Non-AI fixes are much more daunting to come up with tho...

Problem 3 is an annoying and easily solve-able problem. For whatever reason they made the number of barrages per second a static 4; instead of 16 shots occurring in 1 second they have it set to increase duration of the ability, 16 shots in 4 seconds. On paper it makes sense, in practice it's far too slow especially when the problem is increased by poor targeting. They need to make the number scale.

I'm going to think about problem 2 more but I think with the help of your post problem 1 and 3 are solved. I'll update the main post when I've thought it out some more.

Despite my many disagreements with @TheGodofWiFi's approach to fixing some of Hydroid's problems, he was right that tempest barrage in it's current state is unreliable and that AI fixes are necessary to address this problem.  Simply adding more explosions or increasing the radius of those explosions wouldn't be effective or predictable enough unless it covered the entirety of the casting radius. Given this I've updated the main topic to reflect some of @kapn655321's AI related ideas regarding tempest barrage. I do want to expand on my reasoning a bit for a few things.

I didn't include shattering impact because I feel, although good, making it effective would either require including a multishot on salvos (as he did) or greatly increasing the number of salvos since shattering impact is a flat number unlike the corrosive status effect. Even though multishot is a great idea, I feel this ability is already throwing in a lot of variables; throwing in another just complicates understanding of the ability. Consequently, I've suggested the rate of projectiles (previously a static 4) be dependent on duration. This has an added benefit of being able to speed up armor stripping if one desires. Additionally regarding shattering impact, much faster methods of armor stripping exist so I don't see shattering impact on barrage being used to enhance single target damage. The ability would be fantastic for stripping armor for groups, but I just don't see it being used often enough on single targets when it might take casting multiple times to strip an enemy of very high level. I've also suggested making the cast radius dependent on range (again). Previously it was, then DE patched it out since they were afraid of it being able to wipe an entire tile. Even though they allow players to charge the ability to expand the radius, this mechanic is clunky. I think simply limiting the radius to be dependent on power range is the better approach.

I also wanted to say why Hydroid's 4 didn't get the same treatment in my proposed changes. I feel that time-dependent, exponential-scaling-true damage is pretty powerful, and that possibly missing a hit is a fair compromise to having that power. I was a little concerned about the cast missing entirely so I felt adding an end large explosion of that scaled true damage would help make the ability more consistent and predictable. I think the explosion also eliminates the need for a whirlpool like effect. I'll admit I've been avoiding adding a whirlpool to the proposal since it's an animation change and I would like Hydroid's kit to not simply take the best ability from every warframe we can think of.

Edited by Graive

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I'd like to see some Hydroid buffs so he can be more than just a loot frame (that probably isn't even as popular since he competes with Khora now). Since they're more likely to adjust his existing kit than do any of the complete re-works some people suggest, I think these are decent ideas that they'd consider. 

The combination of the passive invulnerability gate + the health regen buff from puddle (and it's brief invulnerability mechanic) and the 90% DR from surge combined could potentially make him a top-tier tanky frame, which might not really fit the identity they're going for. I think maybe I'd go with a different passive at least.

One passive idea: Pilfering Pirate: same thing as his current 4 augment except that it applies to any enemy that's been affected by any of his abilities. I think that fits into his pirate theme. Since loot frame abilities probably aren't going away any time soon the pirate frame could at least have the best loot mechanic. You could then change the existing 4 augment to something like: Feed the Kraken: Every enemy killed by or while held by tentacle swarm increases its remaining duration by 1-4 seconds (stacking mechanic could work the same way Eternal War does). They'd have to cap that power strength bonus from how long it's up from your suggestion if they did that, but it'd pair well with that mechanic since you'd be able to keep it up at maximum strength for a long time in missions where you're not moving around a lot (or if you cap the bonus from duration you could also just make it so re-casting it while active moves it to a new location at the same current strength + restarts the duration).

The invulnerability of going in and out of Undertow might let him be virtually invincible given how fast you can pop in and out of it (and a hidden cooldown like rolling guard would make it clunky I think). I do like the health regen theme combined with Undertow, but maybe it could be more like a regenerative molt style buff where when in the puddle he gains a buff where he regenerates 10% maximum health per second and the buff lingers for 10 seconds after leaving it. Currative Undertow could be changed to provide the same buff to allies who touch the puddle, it's a slower health regen than the existing augment, but would have the benefit of having the duration after leaving puddle so you don't just have to sit there to heal yourself or your allies and you could also drop the extra energy degen of the current augment. If the duration/strength scaled with mods it may need lower base values. Of course with the constant health regen you could get from this + 90% DR from the surge change + possibly adaptation might make him super tanky anyway, but it wouldn't be complete invulnerability I guess. If you still wanted to incorporate a secondary buff like crit damage into it you could make puddle charge up an offensive buff while enemies were drowning in Undertow or something. 

 

Edited by Borg1611
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17 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I'd like to see some Hydroid buffs so he can be more than just a loot frame (that probably isn't even as popular since he competes with Khora now). Since they're more likely to adjust his existing kit than do any of the complete re-works some people suggest, I think these are decent ideas that they'd consider. 

The combination of the passive invulnerability gate + the health regen buff from puddle (and it's brief invulnerability mechanic) and the 90% DR from surge combined could potentially make him a top-tier tanky frame, which might not really fit the identity they're going for. I think maybe I'd go with a different passive at least.

One passive idea: Pilfering Pirate: same thing as his current 4 augment except that it applies to any enemy that's been affected by any of his abilities. I think that fits into his pirate theme. Since loot frame abilities probably aren't going away any time soon the pirate frame could at least have the best loot mechanic. You could then change the existing 4 augment to something like: Feed the Kraken: Every enemy killed by or while held by tentacle swarm increases its remaining duration by 1-4 seconds (stacking mechanic could work the same way Eternal War does). They'd have to cap that power strength bonus from how long it's up from your suggestion if they did that, but it'd pair well with that mechanic since you'd be able to keep it up at maximum strength for a long time in missions where you're not moving around a lot (or if you cap the bonus from duration you could also just make it so re-casting it while active moves it to a new location at the same current strength + restarts the duration).

The invulnerability of going in and out of Undertow might let him be virtually invincible given how fast you can pop in and out of it (and a hidden cooldown like rolling guard would make it clunky I think). I do like the health regen theme combined with Undertow, but maybe it could be more like a regenerative molt style buff where when in the puddle he gains a buff where he regenerates 10% maximum health per second and the buff lingers for 10 seconds after leaving it. Currative Undertow could be changed to provide the same buff to allies who touch the puddle, it's a slower health regen than the existing augment, but would have the benefit of having the duration after leaving puddle so you don't just have to sit there to heal yourself or your allies and you could also drop the extra energy degen of the current augment. If the duration/strength scaled with mods it may need lower base values. Of course with the constant health regen you could get from this + 90% DR from the surge change + possibly adaptation might make him super tanky anyway, but it wouldn't be complete invulnerability I guess. If you still wanted to incorporate a secondary buff like crit damage into it you could make puddle charge up an offensive buff while enemies were drowning in Undertow or something. 

 

Quite frankly, these are fantastic suggestions. I'm extremely biased toward my current passive suggestion since I hate getting 1-shotted, but your 100% correct in that it may not be thematically appropriate. It also begs the question if this kind of health-gating should only apply to 1 warframe. I love both suggestions for the new passive and 4 augment, they're extremely good.

I can't believe I overlooked popping in and out of undertow granting permanent invulnerability, I worked long to avoid that exact issue regarding the combination of abilities and undertow. Definitely an oversight on my part so thanks for calling it out. I'll admit, an easy fix may be just to disable the invulnerability period upon emerging until the buffs wear off, but I love the regenerative molt idea and think it may be better (easier to track, and code) than what I've suggested.

I'm reluctant to tie crit damage to enemies killed while in undertow simply because I'd prefer not to force people to have to sit in puddle mode if they'd prefer not to. May have to think on that one. Maybe just having crit damage scale linearly on power strength, and have the same timeframe as the molt heal?

 

**Topic edited to reflect these suggestions. I renamed the 4 augment to Extended Swarm so it follows how other augments are named. Added crit damage to undertow as that flat linear equation.

Edited by Graive
words and topic update

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6 hours ago, Graive said:

I appreciate the suggestion and could see something like extra speed while in sharkwing as an extra passive being useful. Even though I see him being able to swim as being thematically appropriate I do have a few genuine questions (not sarcastic) on how you think it should work.

What benefit does swimming vs moving about actually have in game? Is it just an extra step to killing enemies or serve a purpose?

Would it just be an animation change while using undertow and tidal wave? 

I know @kapn655321's rework has a mode which after casting undertow you go into a separate water environment, is that what you were thinking of?

 

More like how wukong uses cloud walker and how Hydroid already has undertow. Basically I see him being able to splash across the floor non stop and sucking up enemies in the process before hurling them once the ability is canceled. Casting speed and movement speed increases how fast he travels. Be a good way to get away from or through a horde of enemies. And be fun to use. And in places with a lot of water you could just swim across instead of having to fly over or run around. 

Just something DE could add. 

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8 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

More like how wukong uses cloud walker and how Hydroid already has undertow. Basically I see him being able to splash across the floor non stop and sucking up enemies in the process before hurling them once the ability is canceled. Casting speed and movement speed increases how fast he travels. Be a good way to get away from or through a horde of enemies. And be fun to use. And in places with a lot of water you could just swim across instead of having to fly over or run around. 

Just something DE could add. 

Hmm, going to think about this more. I'm reluctant to just add it because he's already so tanky with my proposal already, your suggestion would make him more so. I just got called out and ended up removing some of his tankiness, so I'll need to think hard before adding a mechanic that makes him invulnerable while traveling even longer distances he's currently able to travel. I do think this is a very good suggestion though, so thank you for it.

Edited by Graive
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16 minutes ago, Graive said:

Hmm, going to think about this more. I'm reluctant to just add it because he's already so tanky with my proposal already, your suggestion would make him more so. I just got called out and ended up removing some of his tankiness, so I'll need to think hard before adding a mechanic that makes him invulnerable while traveling even longer distances he's currently able to travel. I do think this is a very good suggestion though, so thank you for it.

Well I like to add to the discussions/ideas so that when DE sees them they see multiple options. So I try to provide more ideas that could be used whether the OP uses them or DE simply just sees them. I mean I’ve made multiple suggestions of an ability where a Warframe can send balls of Fire or meteors down upon the enemies targeted and surprise, surprise DE made ember’s new forth that exact same ability. 
 

So at this point, you never know what DE may do. Any idea, big or small, may be taken in consideration and balanced out by DE. Which is why I don’t focus too much on the numbers like the exact amount of damage and such. Cause those are things DE has to figure in order to balance the frame and make it somewhat even with all the other frames. 
 

So I try to encourage more people to add to the concept cause the more ideas people add, the more DE has to work with. If I find some of the suggestions better than mine then I’ll use them in the edited version. Otherwise I continue to expect more people to participate in making sure DE sees the post and maybe one day those concepts will become reality. 

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Well I like to add to the discussions/ideas so that when DE sees them they see multiple options. So I try to provide more ideas that could be used whether the OP uses them or DE simply just sees them. I mean I’ve made multiple suggestions of an ability where a Warframe can send balls of Fire or meteors down upon the enemies targeted and surprise, surprise DE made ember’s new forth that exact same ability. 
 

So at this point, you never know what DE may do. Any idea, big or small, may be taken in consideration and balanced out by DE. Which is why I don’t focus too much on the numbers like the exact amount of damage and such. Cause those are things DE has to figure in order to balance the frame and make it somewhat even with all the other frames. 
 

So I try to encourage more people to add to the concept cause the more ideas people add, the more DE has to work with. If I find some of the suggestions better than mine then I’ll use them in the edited version. Otherwise I continue to expect more people to participate in making sure DE sees the post and maybe one day those concepts will become reality. 

I agree 100%. I'm by no means the deciding factor of what's adopted. If you have ideas please post them. I'm only adding ideas that suit my vision here. I'm sure DE reviews posts in general. Additionally, if anyone has a concrete vision that they feel can't be incorporated into someone else's suggested changes, please create a thread. That's literally what I've done here and feel like we really need to make our voices heard.

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So, I've received several extremely helpful suggestions on this and I'm pretty happy with were my proposed changes are currently. I've been thinking of 1 additional change based on previous replies but haven't been able to decide (I was debating 2, but as I writing, figured out the other needlessly complicated things). The change I've been thinking a lot on is:

Change Hydroid's 2 movement to be more reminiscent of cloud walker. Vertical movement should probably be locked or limited, and their would need to be animation changes. Because of this I'd probably include it in the proposal as an optional change. Additionally, ending the ability probably should be triggered by either toggling the ability off, dodging, firing a weapon, or using a melee attack. I specifically wouldn't want the ability to end with a predetermined attack similar to cloud walker since it limits damage based on power strength and I love being able to currently chain abilities.

I initially left it off my topic because I figure it's been suggested a few times in the comments and I know/hope DE would likely review an entire thread, but seeing as how it's been suggested so many times now it may be best to put it up front and center (and really try to detail how I'd envision it working). Just wondering if seems unnecessary, like too much to add, or if anyone considers it too outside Hydroid's theme (more or less I'm on the fence and just need persuading).

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Love the ideas!

My list of parameters would be:

Make corrosive augment innate. Add Electrical proc augment (making stormy weather visuals) remove channel speed or improve range benefits. 

Keep Tidal surge's mobility. (Blinding ink trail augment?)

Try synergies Undertow/wirlpool (sharks in sky box on channel slash procs & the models already exist) (when puddle ends rag-doll launch all occupants out in water spout -sharks and bodies included) (Consider giving undertow a fixed duration and removing/reducing tidal surge cost while in unchanneled undertow -keeping stealth movement in mind.)  Make Curative Undertow work with sentinels,pets and defense targets.

Try and bring Kraken to life: Decoy that grabs when shot, grabbed enemies increase duration and range per enemies consumed... stacks with Hydroids' passive.(Add gas and electrical damage for thematic visuals)

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I appreciate how you work with people's feedback. @Graive Surprised and pleased to see this thread is still around and in good shape. Kudos. 😃

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On 2020-01-22 at 9:17 PM, WarRelic said:

Love the ideas!

My list of parameters would be:

Make corrosive augment innate. Add Electrical proc augment (making stormy weather visuals) remove channel speed or improve range benefits. 

Keep Tidal surge's mobility. (Blinding ink trail augment?)

Try synergies Undertow/wirlpool (sharks in sky box on channel slash procs & the models already exist) (when puddle ends rag-doll launch all occupants out in water spout -sharks and bodies included) (Consider giving undertow a fixed duration and removing/reducing tidal surge cost while in unchanneled undertow -keeping stealth movement in mind.)  Make Curative Undertow work with sentinels,pets and defense targets.

Try and bring Kraken to life: Decoy that grabs when shot, grabbed enemies increase duration and range per enemies consumed... stacks with Hydroids' passive.(Add gas and electrical damage for thematic visuals)

I like the idea of electrical proc for the augment (and initially added it to my proposal because I liked the storm idea too). I ended up removing it to not step on Volt fans' toes, choosing gas instead. I do like the idea of some kind of blind built into his kit so I'll think about how it would be added. I like the skybox/shark idea too. I'm a  huge fan of any Warframe cure ability actually working on ALL allies, and I'm still surprised the abilities don't behave like that by default.

Fixed duration on undertow is an interesting idea that may solve a few problems I've heard about so I also may add it to my proposal too.

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23 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

I appreciate how you work with people's feedback. @Graive Surprised and pleased to see this thread is still around and in good shape. Kudos. 😃

Yep, just makes sense. My ideas were ok, but other peoples ideas have been gold. I've mainly been trying to bring a coders perspective to the execution of ideas presented.

Despite the community support for this thread, I'm a little discouraged since DE recently updated Hydroid's ability videos, solidifying (in my mind at least) a reworks coming no time soon.

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35 minutes ago, Graive said:

Yep, just makes sense. My ideas were ok, but other peoples ideas have been gold. I've mainly been trying to bring a coders perspective to the execution of ideas presented.

Despite the community support for this thread, I'm a little discouraged since DE recently updated Hydroid's ability videos, solidifying (in my mind at least) a reworks coming no time soon.

There's also a deluxe skin in the works. ...As you've learned, taking lots of ideas over time, patiently, makes for a better concept. They'll come up with somethin' when they're good and ready.

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Added some edits to puddle. Mainly faster movement, and reduced energy when casting tidal surge in this mode. Also made the lure time gated to 10 seconds on cast.

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