DE's questionable lRoadmap

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, cmacq said:

You guys are not getting it. Roadmaps are not PROMISES. Is that how you live your lives? When people tell you something you take it as a promise? If that's the case you must get disappointed a lot and here we are with the lie thing again. In your lives when you say something you don't deliver on do people also call you liars? That's what you're doing here.

I don't know about you, but when someone repeatedly promises things to me and doesn't deliver, I end up not believing what that person says. I don't get disappointed all that much, because I tend to steer clear of known liars, and would rather have that than constantly deal with people making promises they know they can't deliver. The opposite doesn't really sound very logical, or healthy...

[Smilomaniac]

4 minutes ago, cmacq said:

You guys are not getting it. Roadmaps are not PROMISES. Is that how you live your lives? When people tell you something you take it as a promise? If that's the case you must get disappointed a lot and here we are with the lie thing again. In your lives when you say something you don't deliver on do people also call you liars? That's what you're doing here.

They're in a pinch though.

I'm not a doom sayer, the game isn't dying and it won't run out of players anytime soon, but the player base is on a decline and far from its concurrent player records.
There's just nothing to do. By that I don't mean that you literally have nothing to do, I mean the longevity that is there is busy work for no-life players (like myself), but there's not a lot of meaningful content. If you look at Railjack with honest eyes, you'll know that it's busy work that only exists for its own sake, it's yet another example of feature creep.
The Liches before that are just barely better, saved by the grace that its affected by what you have and can be completed easier by the virtue of the effort that you put into the game.

I had an epiphany today because I got a 76 streak in Happy Zephyr. I worked at it for hours all morning and I felt genuinly happy (still am) with my accomplishment of not only getting the poster, but going so much further.
I haven't felt nearly as challenged in the base game, let alone in Railjack. That's kind of pathetic.

The game is stale and they need to make some hard design choices soon.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

2 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

They're in a pinch though.

I'm not a doom sayer, the game isn't dying and it won't run out of players anytime soon, but the player base is on a decline and far from its concurrent player records.
There's just nothing to do. By that I don't mean that you literally have nothing to do, I mean the longevity that is there is busy work for no-life players (like myself), but there's not a lot of meaningful content. If you look at Railjack with honest eyes, you'll know that it's busy work that only exists for its own sake, it's yet another example of feature creep.
The Liches before that are just barely better, saved by the grace that its affected by what you have and can be completed easier by the virtue of the effort that you put into the game.

I had an epiphany today because I got a 76 streak in Happy Zephyr. I worked at it for hours all morning and I felt genuinly happy (still am) with my accomplishment of not only getting the poster, but going so much further.
I haven't felt nearly as challenged in the base game, let alone in Railjack. That's kind of pathetic.

The game is stale and they need to make some hard design choices soon.

When de does try to introduce challenging ot difficult content its hated and  shouted down by the community. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

30 minutes ago, nerfinator6 said:

2019.

New Player.

Look at the image again.

Just in case you missed it.

That was written off to the side with the other things that chat picked out. DE themselves did not decide on improving the New Player experience in 2019.

[cmacq]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't know about you, but when someone repeatedly promises things to me and doesn't deliver, I end up not believing what that person says. I don't get disappointed all that much, because I tend to steer clear of known liars, and would rather have that than constantly deal with people making promises they know they can't deliver. The opposite doesn't really sound very logical, or healthy...

Done here. You didn't even bother to read the post you quoted. They did not "promise" anything but you go on seeing the world in black and white. It won't get you far but if that's your thing.......

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That was written off to the side with the other things that chat picked out. DE themselves did not decide on improving the New Player experience in 2019.

Welp, that's depressing to hear. Oh well. 🤷‍♂️

 

[rapt0rman]

An exaggerated lack of understanding of the roadmap.

They were never promises.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

ESPECIALLY after this year, I would rather DE take their time to make a working NPE than rush it out and ruin it like almost everything they've done this year. They need to quit trying to do 50 things at once and instead focus on a few things and perfect them before release. I would rather have a content drought than have garbage content. I have other games I play, anyway, and it's good to take a break.

[ixidron92]

I say they were overambitious. I definitely didn't expect them to develop an entire new game that's basically railjack in one year. Literally, we went from borderlands to star trek bridge commander. That's an entirely new game.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-12-29 at 2:37 PM, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

No we didn't? ??????  What kingpin you playing. .....

Uhm yes we did. Kuva Lich = Kingpin system. So if you look again at the roadmap, you'll see Kingpin faaaaaar out to the right in the row with other "at some point" content releases.

Left collumn = this is planned to come 2019.

Middle collumn = player questions/ideas that might come 2019. We got several of those, actuall all of them aside from NPE and difficulty (though difficulty or well balance did chance with RJ).

Right collumn = Things somewhere in the future, very likely not 2019.

Yet here we sit with the first iteration of the Kingpin system and only missing 2 of planned for 2019 content releases.

On 2019-12-29 at 4:59 PM, aligatorno said:

-snip-

No, not really. DE is the whole company, not just the studio. When it comes to AAA games the studio numbers are most often the number of people working on the game project. While other things are covered by the publisher or parent company. In DE's case you have everything from lawers, HR people, PR people, janitors and everything else within the company that is DE. It is not 300 people working actively on the game development. They are afterall developer, publisher and everything else at the same time.

Look at the upcoming LotR game. It is being developed by a studio connected to Amazon. The studio is actively working on the project while the massive giant that is Amazon takes care of everything else from legal to publishing.

[Teridax68]

44 minutes ago, cmacq said:

Done here. You didn't even bother to read the post you quoted. They did not "promise" anything but you go on seeing the world in black and white. It won't get you far but if that's your thing.......

Then what exactly did they do, pray tell? What was the purpose of the roadmap, that Tennocon "demo", those announcements? Your apologetics here don't add up, because ultimately the premise you are relying on is that DE spends lots of time throwing idle words in the air without expecting us to believe any of them, which is itself an unhealthy state of affairs that needs to change. As such, your arguments are shallow, and do nothing to detract from the problem at hand.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Then what exactly did they do, pray tell? What was the purpose of the roadmap, that Tennocon "demo", those announcements? Your apologetics here don't add up, because ultimately the premise you are relying on is that DE spends lots of time throwing idle words in the air without expecting us to believe any of them, which is itself an unhealthy state of affairs that needs to change. As such, your arguments are shallow, and do nothing to detract from the problem at hand.

Take a good look at the roadmap again. How much did they fail to deliver?

2 things out of the planned releases for 2019 i.e the left-most collumn they failed to deliver. But in return we got most of the things from the middle collumn too i.e melee, several reworks etc. But then we also got something that wasnt even on the board for 2019 at all, the Kingpin system.

So have they failed to deliver on anything really? What they've done is shift focus a bit, that is it. Sure the Kuva Lich system wasnt great, but that is a matter of taste.

[Yuzumiii]

I really find it amusing how people even dare to blame these devs to not fulfill EVERYTHING they had promised, like come on man.

 

You will appreciate these Devs and DE in general once you've left this game and realise that you want back asap because no matter how hard DE fails to deliver their promises, at least they dont blatantly lie in your face and make the game p2w straight through your vision.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Take a good look at the roadmap again. How much did they fail to deliver?

2 things out of the planned releases for 2019 i.e the left-most collumn they failed to deliver. But in return we got most of the things from the middle collumn too i.e melee, several reworks etc. But then we also got something that wasnt even on the board for 2019 at all, the Kingpin system.

So have they failed to deliver on anything really? What they've done is shift focus a bit, that is it. Sure the Kuva Lich system wasnt great, but that is a matter of taste.

The things they "delivered" clearly did not match up to promise, either. The Wolf of Saturn Six, and the whole of Nightwave, did not go down well with the community, the melee rework is still in need of serious changes, the three frames released this year have had mixed success at best, and Exploiter itself was a single gimmicky mini-mission players abandoned as soon as they got the rewards. We did not get the Kingpin system with Liches, and the Empyrean we got also is nothing like the fabricated Tennocon demo. The one part of the board I would consider delivered as promised is the Gas City rework; the rest was rushed at a severe cost in quality and longevity, or simply delivered in name only.

To be clear, I am not faulting DE for not delivering everything on the board. It was obvious we weren't going to get every major update listed, and to some extent they gave us more updates than one could expect. My issue here is with the substance of what was delivered, the quality of the content we received. In this respect, I think DE's problem here isn't that they promised too much, but that they botched the things they did release, while ignoring the long-term problems they had set out to address. Had they done a little less hype-mongering, and a little more focus on quality, this would've been a far better year.

[DeMonkey]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, out of the things on the roadmap they've missed only two of their points i.e new war and duviri.

In fairness, two out of six things is 33%. And I'd say you're hard pressed to consider Empyrean complete enough to consider it ticked off the roadmap since this is what, part 1, so I'd say 50% missed.

I don't care either way about the roadmap, mind you, it is something they did and missed some bits of, same as every other year, it barely registers in the grand scheme of things due to a great many other problems. I'm just saying that I don't think "they only missed 33% of the things they said they wanted to do" is that great a point to try and make.

Edited December 29, 2019 by DeMonkey

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The things they "delivered" clearly did not match up to promise, either. The Wolf of Saturn Six, and the whole of Nightwave, did not go down well with the community, the melee rework is still in need of serious changes, the three frames released this year have had mixed success at best, and Exploiter itself was a single gimmicky mini-mission players abandoned as soon as they got the rewards. We did not get the Kingpin system with Liches, and the Empyrean we got also is nothing like the fabricated Tennocon demo. The one part of the board I would consider delivered as promised is the Gas City rework; the rest was rushed at a severe cost in quality and longevity, or simply delivered in name only.

To be clear, I am not faulting DE for not delivering everything on the board. It was obvious we weren't going to get every major update listed, and to some extent they gave us more updates than one could expect. My issue here is with the substance of what was delivered, the quality of the content we received. In this respect, I think DE's problem here isn't that they promised too much, but that they botched the things they did release, while ignoring the long-term problems they had set out to address. Had they done a little less hype-mongering, and a little more focus on quality, this would've been a far better year.

They never promised us anything though regarding what the wolf would entail, that is just pure player selfhype and player selfdisappointment in the end. The melee rework is fantastic as it is, it needs a few things ironed out, like toggle option for heavy melee, some finalizing on certain stances and possibly a second pass on exalted, so they can use acolyte mods and other things. It was also never aimed to be finalized during 2019, yet it more or less was, with some bonus work going into it with rage mode later. Your opinion on exploiter doesnt matter either, because they didnt include specifics on it, just as with the wolf. And we did get the Kingpin system, that is what the Lich system is, that is what the Lich system was called previously, before they knew which faction it was going to be used for. It may not be a great system, it is still a system and nothing was specificed during the roadmap, not was it even planned to be a 2019 release. So we very much got that instead of some of the things planned for 2019.

There is nothing wrong with the quality of the content. Liches for instance are mechanically sound, the design works well, there have been no real bugs with it, the rewards are pretty good and so on. There are however some design choices within the system that are questionable out of a "fun factor" PoV. I hate parts of it, it still doesnt make it less of a fully designed and working system. It is has a few things missing for me personally, since I dislike the auto-death during trial and error since it isnt what we got sold prior to release, which was that we were going to kill the lich and have it resurrect, not us dying and them growing stronger. Still, we'd likely see the same end result even if the mechanic was the other way around. Would it make an actual different on the system? Nope. Would it make it more fun and immersively sound? Yup 100% so.

Liches are the only thing this year I havent really enjoyed and that is more or less soley due to the auto-death approach they took with trial and error. The rest of the content additions have in my mind been spot on.

22 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

In fairness, two out of six things is 33%. And I'd say you're hard pressed to consider Empyrean complete enough to consider it ticked off the roadmap since this is what, part 1, so I'd say 50% missed.

I don't care either way about the roadmap, mind you, it is something they did and missed some bits of, same as every other year, it barely registers in the grand scheme of things due to a great many other problems. I'm just saying that I don't think "they only missed 33% of the things they said they wanted to do" is that great a point to try and make.

True true, but we got several of the optional things too. So we were more missing out on 2 things out of 10 since Empyrean isnt fully finalized (which is good given what we have to play with there) but difficulty adjustments have also started comming a wee bit on the way there. And that is also if we dont count season two of Nightwave as a seperate release aswell.

[Teridax68]

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They never promised us anything though regarding what the wolf would entail, that is just pure player selfhype and player selfdisappointment in the end.

"Self-hype" is a myth, one conjured purely to excuse a feature not living up to expectations the developers generated alongside deliberate hype. The Wolf of Saturn Six was disappointing not because players imagined him as this major villain, but because almost every single aspect of his implementation was poor. Players to this day point out just how awful he is designed as a unit, to say nothing of how awkward it was for an event-centric villain to be largely inaccessible during said event.

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The melee rework is fantastic as it is, it needs a few things ironed out, like toggle option for heavy melee, some finalizing on certain stances and possibly a second pass on exalted, so they can use acolyte mods and other things. It was also never aimed to be finalized during 2019, yet it more or less was, with some bonus work going into it with rage mode later.

Fantastic... says who? The heap of player feedback criticizing the rework to this day suggests it is not quite as fantastic as you're making it out to be, and while I don't entirely agree with it, I think there are many parts of the rework that clearly stand out as enduring problems, along with some deeper issues fewer people are talking about that I think have caused it to fail as a permanent replacement to Melee 2.0.

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Your opinion on exploiter doesnt matter either, because they didnt include specifics on it, just as with the wolf.

Putting aside how strange it is to make this argument when you are using your own opinion as sole defense for some of these content updates, my opinion here does matter, because ultimately Exploiter was also heavily criticized for being gimmicky, much like how Profit-Taker was criticized for being poorly-designed in its own right. Additionally, it is a known fact that it failed to durably add to the game's pool of content, much like how Fortuna itself generated far less gameplay than the time and resources put into it were expected to bring about.

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And we did get the Kingpin system, that is what the Lich system is, that is what the Lich system was called previously, before they knew which faction it was going to be used for. It may not be a great system, it is still a system and nothing was specificed during the roadmap, not was it even planned to be a 2019 release. So we very much got that instead of some of the things planned for 2019.

But it's evidently not the Kingpin system. The Kingpin system as it was proposed was meant to be similar to the Nemesis system of Shadows of Mordor, featuring a complex network of persistent enemies with their own agendas, that Tenno clans would have to work together to defeat through unique missions. Even when reduced to its most elementary components with Kuva Liches, what we were shown was a persistent enemy that would become a part of the individual identity of individual players by generating content over a long period of time, resurrecting after death to come back against us and adapt to our actions, again like in the Mordor Games. What we got were enemies that do not adapt to the player, that do not have distinct agendas, and that can be permanently killed within three hours. They do not even have their own bases, much less acquire power independently, as the demo had also suggested. Literally no part of what was promised of the Kingpin system or Kuva Liches was delivered, aside from the character models, voice lines, and RNG names.

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is nothing wrong with the quality of the content. Liches for instance are mechanically sound, the design works well, there have been no real bugs with it, the rewards are pretty good and so on. There are however some design choices within the system that are questionable out of a "fun factor" PoV. I hate parts of it, it still doesnt make it less of a fully designed and working system. It is has a few things missing for me personally, since I dislike the auto-death during trial and error since it isnt what we got sold prior to release, which was that we were going to kill the lich and have it resurrect, not us dying and them growing stronger. Still, we'd likely see the same end result even if the mechanic was the other way around. Would it make an actual different on the system? Nope. Would it make it more fun and immersively sound? Yup 100% so.

This paragraph I'd say says enough about your objectivity on the matter, as the heaps of criticism levied against the Kuva Lich system, more so even than many of this year's other updates, gives plenty of evidence that there is something wrong with the quality of the content. Pretending otherwise is tremendously delusional, without even going into how the Lich system can only be deemed "fully designed and working" if the standard one sets for such is that the feature is not literally impossible to complete due to technical errors.

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Liches are the only thing this year I havent really enjoyed and that is more or less soley due to the auto-death approach they took with trial and error. The rest of the content additions have in my mind been spot on.

"in my mind" being the operative term here. You are clearly arguing from personal bias rather than any sort of broader evidence, consensus, or analysis, which ultimately makes it difficult to even answer your points, as you are not producing actual arguments here. You are, of course, free to believe only in your opinions, and ignore literally everything else that comes your way, but that is not going to help you much when arguing with other people on here, particularly as the playerbase is already well-acquainted with the white knighting that goes on the forums.

[(PSN)FastestKnight]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: Also, out of the things on the roadmap they've missed only two of their points i.e new war and duviri.

 

And the new player experience, which we don't know about since Tennocon.

[kapn655321]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Don't worry guys i'll work at DE

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

4 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I was deliberately waiting for a comment like this 

Nice job...but you activated my trap card!

I'm not going to work under a half cooked company with poor decisions and roadmap plans that gets a holiday every day

I'm not going to judge from your posts here like you did with mine...but i'll just say you have no idea how out of order this company is

 

[SneakyErvin]

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"Self-hype" is a myth, one conjured purely to excuse a feature not living up to expectations the developers generated alongside deliberate hype. The Wolf of Saturn Six was disappointing not because players imagined him as this major villain, but because almost every single aspect of his implementation was poor. Players to this day point out just how awful he is designed as a unit, to say nothing of how awkward it was for an event-centric villain to be largely inaccessible during said event.

Fantastic... says who? The heap of player feedback criticizing the rework to this day suggests it is not quite as fantastic as you're making it out to be, and while I don't entirely agree with it, I think there are many parts of the rework that clearly stand out as enduring problems, along with some deeper issues fewer people are talking about that I think have caused it to fail as a permanent replacement to Melee 2.0.

Putting aside how strange it is to make this argument when you are using your own opinion as sole defense for some of these content updates, my opinion here does matter, because ultimately Exploiter was also heavily criticized for being gimmicky, much like how Profit-Taker was criticized for being poorly-designed in its own right. Additionally, it is a known fact that it failed to durably add to the game's pool of content, much like how Fortuna itself generated far less gameplay than the time and resources put into it were expected to bring about.

But it's evidently not the Kingpin system. The Kingpin system as it was proposed was meant to be similar to the Nemesis system of Shadows of Mordor, featuring a complex network of persistent enemies with their own agendas, that Tenno clans would have to work together to defeat through unique missions. Even when reduced to its most elementary components with Kuva Liches, what we were shown was a persistent enemy that would become a part of the individual identity of individual players by generating content over a long period of time, resurrecting after death to come back against us and adapt to our actions, again like in the Mordor Games. What we got were enemies that do not adapt to the player, that do not have distinct agendas, and that can be permanently killed within three hours. They do not even have their own bases, much less acquire power independently, as the demo had also suggested. Literally no part of what was promised of the Kingpin system or Kuva Liches was delivered, aside from the character models, voice lines, and RNG names.

This paragraph I'd say says enough about your objectivity on the matter, as the heaps of criticism levied against the Kuva Lich system, more so even than many of this year's other updates, gives plenty of evidence that there is something wrong with the quality of the content. Pretending otherwise is tremendously delusional, without even going into how the Lich system can only be deemed "fully designed and working" if the standard one sets for such is that the feature is not literally impossible to complete due to technical errors.

"in my mind" being the operative term here. You are clearly arguing from personal bias rather than any sort of broader evidence, consensus, or analysis, which ultimately makes it difficult to even answer your points, as you are not producing actual arguments here. You are, of course, free to believe only in your opinions, and ignore literally everything else that comes your way, but that is not going to help you much when arguing with other people on here, particularly as the playerbase is already well-acquainted with the white knighting that goes on the forums.

The thing is, you go and place your own expectations on the roadmap list. What I'm doing is simply looking at them point for point, what did we get, what did we not get. Opinions on the execution of said roadmap points is of no actual matter, because no matter how little you liked an addition or not, it was released without any specific promises on what they'd entail beforehand. That very much comes down to self-hype, there is no myth. When people build up their expectations without even having any promises or design spoilers to build that hype on it is all self made.

And the kingpin system you talk about is an old old idea of it that just didnt work out. We still got the kingpin system, there will be no other kingpin system, this is what they went with in the end. Basing it on something that was mentioned 3(?) years ago when it wasnt even really in the works just isnt viable. All they did back then was spitball ideas regarding the system. And please stop using the word "promises" when you are talking about content that was just gimpsed a long way back and mentioned in some ideas. Those are not promises. The whole system has taken a massive ride through several different itterations, it is still no less the kingpin system. What can be argued is if it is good or not, it is still the system though.

I'm also not sure what my paragraph says about objectivity. I'm simply saying the lich system isnt good, but it does work with the mechanics we were given. That doesnt mean it is perfect or even enjoyable. The mechanics setup works for it when it comes to parazon, kill commands, spawning the lich, killing the lich and so on. The journey however between spawning and killing him is tedious, unfun, meta-GM cheesy and several other negative things. The liches arent coming in big enough variety, the damage types and kits for liches are too few etc. The list of what is wrong with the lich system could turn into an essay. That still doesnt mean the fundamentals of the system are bad or that the system doesnt work.

And what exactly do I need to spell out regarding my opinions on the rest of the content? If I say the rest of the content additions have been spot on it would be kinda an obvious indication what I think of them. If something is spot on it tends to be good to the point where there is little criticism needed. Have they been flawless? No, they've all had their kinks, but those things have gotten fixed fast.

And no matter, in the end the point of it all is just "what did they release and what didnt they release?", nothing else.

I'd also love to see all those people you claim that think the new melee system is bad, aside from the few people at start that couldnt be bothered to adapt and gave up on it. It has been a major success since it has actually brought us far more melee choices, builds, far better balance and so many smooth stances. Most of the complaints early on was about how some people couldnt do their pointless long hours of endless, thus the system must have been broken. Complaints about content that DE have never bothered to balance around to begin with. I agree though, some weapons have gotten worse, but it is far outweighed by the number of useful and really good weapon options we've gotten. Sadly they didnt balance exalted weapons well, but that is something they can always fix.

[SneakyErvin]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)FastestKnight said:

 

And the new player experience, which we don't know about since Tennocon.

Which was not an official note on the roadmap, it was a bonus note brought up by the players, just as ongoing balance, difficulty and melee. Left row are the only official notes, so we got several bonuses instead of 2 official notes. And honestly, I rather take the melee changes aswell as the balance changes over duviri and new war, instead of having them come first with the old melee and old ember/vauban and other things.

[kapn655321]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

I was deliberately waiting for a comment like this 

Nice job...but you activated my trap card!

I'm not going to work under a half cooked company with poor decisions and roadmap plans that gets a holiday every day

I'm not going to judge from your posts here like you did with mine...but i'll just say you have no idea how out of order this company is

 

I was saying no because you're a miserable sour puss 100% of the time.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

33 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I was saying no because you're a miserable sour puss 100% of the time.

You've realized this from...what? My posts in here?

 

Wow you really are young

Edited December 29, 2019 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk
Because i felt bad

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, OcyrusGaming said:

 

So was this estimate WAY WAY over exaggerated or did something happen?

Software development happened

Nothing ever takes as long as you think it will, it always takes longer. As an example, Half Life 2 was supposed to be done in three years, it took five.