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Which house variant of railjack weapons is best?


Raskol
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So vidar cryophone, that i know, but what about the other weapons?

Is +dmg on vidar version better than +rof on zakti for apoc, carcinnox etc?

For the sake of comparison and math lets assume everything is with its best bonus so +60 rof, +30 dmg and so on

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Vidar takes the price for all of them really.

Zetki simply fires too fast and doesnt do enough damage to handle the targets where you need the sustained fire to begin with. Zetki also has worse sync with crit stat avionics like predator. Zetki would be hard enough to manage heat on even without the RoF bonus. Another thing is that if you dont use Zetki, you can invest in better avionics since you wont really need the extra heat management outside of your gunner perks.

Lavan can be useful for Photor.

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9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Vidar takes the price for all of them really.

Zetki simply fires too fast and doesnt do enough damage to handle the targets where you need the sustained fire to begin with. Zetki also has worse sync with crit stat avionics like predator. Zetki would be hard enough to manage heat on even without the RoF bonus. Another thing is that if you dont use Zetki, you can invest in better avionics since you wont really need the extra heat management outside of your gunner perks.

Lavan can be useful for Photor.

So mathwise vidar wins it all? i mean utility form not overheating every 3s is nice but maybe it wouldnt matter if the dmg is right, and as far as i saw zekti got best base dmg

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3 minutes ago, Raskol said:

So mathwise vidar wins it all? i mean utility form not overheating every 3s is nice but maybe it wouldnt matter if the dmg is right, and as far as i saw zekti got best base dmg

Yep, but Vidar is only marginally behind on raw damage. Vidar carcinnox ends up at 192 damage with a top roll vs Zetki at 222, but it is also sitting at 6% higher crit chance (nearly a 50% increase) and can fire much longer before overheating. Most fighters in Veil will require you to fire longer than what the heat build up on Zetki allows you to. Each missed shot from Zetki also results in alot more wasted shots due to the heat build up being so harsh and having increased fire rate. You can also start shooting earlier with Vidar without it resulting in effectively wasting heat due to better drop off stats (that may get nerfed though).

Zetki's damage just doesnt make up for the massive heat costs tied to the house. It would need to deal several times more damage in order to be effective enough for the heat cost it brings. Currently it costs 3 times as much heat but only sits at around 15% more damage per shot.

For Photor Lavan works better because it also gets the same +damage % bonus as Vidar, but it also has far higher status chance which benefits that cannon nicely.

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6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

For Photor Lavan works better because it also gets the same +damage % bonus as Vidar, but it also has far higher status chance which benefits that cannon nicely.

Got lower cc and cd tho

but overall thx mate, at least ik what to scrap wo even checking the stats 😛

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The general opinion amongst the members of my alliance is:

Too hell with Zetki for anything other than Cryophon, the heat accretion is simply too high to make good use of the weapon.

Lavan for weapons with a status effect worth using.

Vidar for all others.

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11 minutes ago, Raskol said:

Got lower cc and cd tho

but overall thx mate, at least ik what to scrap wo even checking the stats 😛

Ah yes, forgot about that CD thing on Lavan Photor. I knew there was something that caught my eye last time I checked. Atleast it is a status cannon.

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hace 5 minutos, 0_The_F00l dijo:

Vidar for everything ,

Only Zetki cryophon is kinda just as good as a high roll Vidar,

Lavan is probably only good on Photor. though photor becomes weird to use after getting used to projectile speeds.

 

Vidar is better fro cryo. A 50%+ dmg vidas deals more damage than a zekti but has half the heat accretion, and since you are gonna be one-shotting everything, there isn't much point in having faster firing rate or CC/SC.

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4 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Vidar is better fro cryo. A 50%+ dmg vidas deals more damage than a zekti but has half the heat accretion, and since you are gonna be one-shotting everything, there isn't much point in having faster firing rate or CC/SC.

I agree , thats why i didnt say its better.

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19 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Vidar is better fro cryo. A 50%+ dmg vidas deals more damage than a zekti but has half the heat accretion, and since you are gonna be one-shotting everything, there isn't much point in having faster firing rate or CC/SC.

Except, you know, farming for a ≥50% damage bonus Vidar Cryophon is rather... draining considering the range of damage bonus and drop source.

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Zetki is not all that bad. On the Carcinnox and cryophon the overheat accretion is managable.

The cryophon deals enough damage to not be annoying and the Carcinnox starts to cool down instantly.

On other weapons Zetki is a big no-no. The guns fire fast and heat up even faster. Especially the Apoc. That gun is bordeline useless.

If you can or just didn't build a mk3 weapon yet go for vidar. Ppl seem to prefer those.

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Perhaps I'm a bit strange, but I like several of the Zetki variant weapons.  If you don't actually let them overheat, and fire them in short bursts, they work quite well.  For a public match, I'll throw a Lavan or Vidar weapon into the gunner turrets since they take less skill to use properly.  However, when I'm piloting my own ship, I pretty much just use Zetki weapons.

My current favorite is a 26.1% damage boost Zetki Photor.  It allows me to deal with incoming missiles, crewship heal bubbles at range, and has reasonable time to kill for a hit scan weapon.  I admit having Gunnery Rank 6 and +66% heat capacity avionic help push it up past the competitors.  At the current high end of Railjack, Zetki weapons I think tend to be (not in all cases, but most) will provide more kills per time than their equivalents, assuming high user skill.

People have to remember damage output is dependent on how long you shoot and how long you cooldown.  Lets say you've got a 30 second engagement.  A Zetki Photor builds up 12*40*0.8 (gunnery rank 6) = 384 heat per second.  The Lavan/Vidar equivalents build up 12*10*0.8=96.  With a 66% heat capacity avionic, heat cools off when not firing at about 500 heat per second.  

In 30 seconds, assuming you never let the heat gauge hit 0 or 1660, a Zetki Photor will have about 17 seconds of up time [i.e. 30/(1+(364/500))=16.97].  A Vidar Photor will have about 25 seconds of up time [i.e. 30/(1+96/500)=25.17].  16.97 seconds of Zetki photor is worth about 25.455 seconds of a Vidar Photor's fire since it does 50% more damage base.  25.455 > 25.17

In skilled hands, a Zetki Photor has better sustained damage than a Lavan or Vidar variant.  Since its burst is better, you focus on any given target for less time, and use cooldown between to acquire a new target.  You can do similar analysis for other weapons, and I find that Zetki generally only lags by about 10% or so in terms of sustained damage, while requiring less time on target.

 

 

Edited by Hiruma-Kai
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1 hour ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

Perhaps I'm a bit strange, but I like several of the Zetki variant weapons.  If you don't actually let them overheat, and fire them in short bursts, they work quite well.

The problem with most Zetki armaments is that in order for them to be on par with the other houses you need to learn proper and efficient heat management. a skill the other houses don't need.

The other houses are better than Zetki from the gate and Zetki needs work to be on par

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In terms of better overall performance, efficiency and versatility: Vidar.

Zetki weapons are not practical for the dynamics of real combat. The high cost of overheating makes them uncomfortable to use.

Even in Avinonica Zetki it is questionable, since the cost in GRID points does not compensate the statistical% of its mods, with only a few exceptions, such as Mámparo Zetki.

Zetki sells us as "the best of the best", and really, the best of the best you can do is forget it.

Edited by Awazx
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it depends. technically 60% Fire Rate is more Burst DPS than 30% Damage buuuuut.... people really should keep in mind the amount of uptime before overheating that a Weapon can offer, as this is the same thing as 'Magazine Capacity'. if this value is really low, you're not actually dealing much Damage because you spend most of your time waiting.

Zetki Carcinnox still manages to work acceptably, and Zetki Photor might also but i haven't Crafted that one yet to try for myself.
but most Zetki models do not offer much of a positive.

generally what you're going to want is whichever Variant of Vidar/Lavan that offers good Crits.
this means generally you're going to go for Vidar. more Status sounds nice but realistically none of the Railjack Weapons is practical for stacking Slash Status so you don't need Status Effects more than once every few seconds anyways.
and this solidifies in that similar Base Damage to Zetki and more Crits just means that for most Weapons, Vidar deals similar or higher DPS than Zetki anyways.

 

Zetki Cryo is only 'good' because it is easier to get than Vidar Cryo. that's literally the only good thing about it, that it's easy to get.

1 hour ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

-snip-

you should keep in mind that Photor is somewhat a unique situation, since all Variants have bonus Damage, all Variants have the same Fire Rate, and the Zetki model has higher Crits/Status than the others.
that's a unique situation, to say the least.

though even then, other Variants having quadruple the uptime (and continuous Fire time of almost 14 seconds rather than about 3.5) makes it a bit cloudy whether you generally win by enough that it makes much of a difference anyways.

Edited by taiiat
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1 hour ago, BaIthazar said:

The problem with most Zetki armaments is that in order for them to be on par with the other houses you need to learn proper and efficient heat management. a skill the other houses don't need.

The other houses are better than Zetki from the gate and Zetki needs work to be on par

If you want to use any of the weapons to their maximum potential, you need to learn proper heat management and fire discipline.  In the example I gave, I was assuming equal player skill.  If you overheat a vidar photor halfway through that 30 seconds, that drops your uptime from 25.17 down to 22.17. So now the Zetki is dealing 13% more sustained damage.

If in a furball you let your heat guage drop to zero, then your favoring a Zetki weapon with proper heat management, as that means more burst would have helped.

You have to learn the skills either way.

The shorter the engagement , the more it'll favor a Zetki weapon, as the burst nature comes into play.

I agree, at the beginning of a railjack career, the other houses are better.  But at the "end game" with approriate skills and avionics, a Zetki Photor has better crit chance, staus chance, sustained damage, and burst damage.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

though even then, other Variants having quadruple the uptime (and continuous Fire time of almost 14 seconds rather than about 3.5) makes it a bit cloudy whether you generally win by enough that it makes much of a difference anyways.

Its not quadruple up time.  Its time for a continuous burst which in some sense doesn't matter.  Actual time on target times damage is what matters. 

For me its about 17 seconds of Vidar photor fire before overheat and 4.3 for Zetki (due to gunner rank 6 reducing heat by 20%). In 17 seconds of Vidar fire, you can do 4 seconds fire, 3 second cooldown, fire 4 seconds, 2.5 second cooldown, and finally 3.5 seconds of fire with the Zetki.

11.5 seconds of Zetki fire is worth 17.25 seconds of other house fire (ignoring crits and status, which favors Zetki).

So you might say the Vidar has about 50% more uptime (i.e. 17/11.5), but Zetki does 50% more damage during those periods of uptime. 

I happen to find it easier to take advantage of the cool down periods to do things like dodge, which typically throws off my own aim briefly.  4 seconds on target and 3 seconds off seems to fit the rythm of combat for myself much better than 17 seconds on target, then 3 seconds off.

Edited by Hiruma-Kai
Completing an uncompleted line.
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3 hours ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

Actual time on target times damage is what matters. 

if we weren't in a target rich environment perahaps, but there are generally plenty of Enemies, we aren't fighting one Fighter at a time or anything. usually half a dozen, a dozen, maybe even a couple dozen.

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55 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if we weren't in a target rich environment perahaps, but there are generally plenty of Enemies, we aren't fighting one Fighter at a time or anything. usually half a dozen, a dozen, maybe even a couple dozen.

I'm slightly confused by this statement, as I don't understand what number of targets has to do with calculating damage dealt to enemies.  Presumably the metric we're using to rate turrets against each other is how quickly they kill all the enemy fighters.  If we are ignoring healing, then the only thing that matters is dealing damage equal to each fighter's hit points to destroy it in the fastest way possible.  So we want to have the highest damage over time possible, which converts to the smallest time to kill each fighter. 

It gets a bit trickier if you're destroying enemies in a single shot, at which point fire rate matters more than damage, as overkill is useless.  This is one of the reasons players prefer automatic weapons to bows when enemies are low level.  If you're farming Earth Proxima with Mk 3 Cryphons, you might want to reconsider your weapon choice.  However, I wasn't considering that regime, as I was doing the numbers for the Photor family of weapons.

I don't see how having a target rich environment changes that fundamental thing we care about.  Damage dealt is number of shots hitting the target (what I'm calling time on target for a held weapon like a Photor) times damage dealt per shot (or damage per tick or whatever).  Or are we saying some metric other than damage dealt to enemies matters here?  Are we talking about some kind of AoE combo? I.e. missiles + Void Hole avionic?  Particle Ram? That perhaps makes the turret discussion moot, but I was assuming turret to turret comparisons.

If you've got enough enemies to require firing a Vidar Photor for 17 seconds straight, you could have also fired a Zetki Photor for 11.5 seconds while also letting it cool down for 5.5 seconds.  Identical amount of time has elapsed (17 seconds), both weapons are at near full heat gauge (1660 heat) at the end, and both weapons have dealt essentially the same damage to enemies over 17 seconds (11.5*1.5 ~ 17).   Doesn't matter if its 1 target or 3 or however many.  After that point, both weapons need to cool down for an additional ~3.3 seconds, and the cycle repeats.

To make a concrete target rich environment example, let us say it takes 9 seconds of Vidar Photor fire to shoot down a fighter.  Lets assume we have 90 fighters, and the battle flows such that we always have a target, and that you can instantly switch to your new target every time.  That is 810 seconds of fire, and about 157 seconds of cooldown for the Vidar photor to kill them all.  Along with approximately 972 plasma/incendiary procs.   The fight ends ~967 seconds after it begins.

The Zetki Photor takes 6 seconds to shoot down a fighter, times 90 fighters.  That is 540 seconds of fire, and 418 second of cool down.  Approximately 1166 plasma/incendiary procs would have happened as well.  The fight ends ~954 seconds after it begins.

Have I calculated something wrong here? 

I'll note, if you start to make this more realistic, and have periods where your heat drops to zero anyways with the Vidar, or you take more than 3.3 seconds to get your next target, then that is simply going to favor the Zetki weapon more. The extreme case being fighting a single fighter and moving on, then the Zetki just needs to fire for 4 seconds, cooldown for 1.5 seconds, then fire for another 2.  In 7.5 seconds you're boosting off to the next area with more fighters compared to the 9 seconds for the Vidar, using the numbers from this example.

I'll qualify these numbers assumes at least gunnery 6 and the usual maxed out avionics, and ignoring the actual damage due to Plasma/Incendiary procs.

Edited by Hiruma-Kai
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People tend to forget that this is co OP, 

Not everyone has the same level of skill, 

I will use the weapons for myself (pilot) that are suitable for my skill sure, 

But For the side turrets I will use the ones that need the least skill and effort. 

Even with polar coil and gunnery 7 players say they find the Zetki variants frustrating (piloting like a pro/madman to avoid the sledge might have something to do with it) and will make you miss a lot of shots and have to wait. 

Calculations made don't take into account the mobility of enemies and are only viable for hitscan weapons where lead time is not necessary. 

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3 hours ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

I'm slightly confused by this statement, as I don't understand what number of targets has to do with calculating damage dealt to enemies.

because if there's dozens of Enemies around you, you don't have a reason to not want to be shooting, as even if you oneshot some Enemy, there's another one, repeat.

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