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Baruuk : Review, Critique and Suggestions.


LascarCapable
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It's been a while since I made a feedback thread about a specific frame.

Baruuk is a warframe that never really poked my curiosity before, but I wanted to rank up Vox Solaris standing, and noticed I could unlock Baruuk from there. Why not giving him a try I guess. Did I like him ? Well, I unlocked him just today I managed to rank him to level 30 twice. I guess that could answer your question. But Baruuk is not void of what I personally percieve as flaws in his design. Let's review the warframe first.

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Presentation :

Baruuk primarily shows himself as a rather defensive warframe. He's extremely oriented towards survivability with several ways to avoid or mitigate damage and control crowds. Don't let those low stats fool you, because a decently built Baruuk should be roughly as incredibly durable as your average Rhino, if not even more. This is not all of Baruuk's gimmicks however. Using any of his first three abilities will erode his retraint meter, thus giving him material to use his exalted weapon and teach to any enemy on sight how to fly. You can also earn up to 50% damage reduction depending of how fed up your Baruuk is.

His first ability is Elude. This toggleable ability allows Baruuk to avoid any projectile and attacks in a very wide angle in front of him : 180° at base at level 30 to be exact. With 200% power range, you can even make that angle effectively cover Baruuk entirely, thus allowing you to avoid shots in all directions. The power does have weak points though : Baruuk does not seem to be able to avoid AoE attacks with it, and Elude is only effective if you do not attack.

Lull is your second abilty. It generates a glyph on the floor that progressively slows down and puts to sleep any enemy coming inside of it. The CC effect is not instant, but this is heavily compensated by the insane base range and base duration you can get from it (25m and 25s at rank 30 respectively). Of course, any enemy put to sleep this way is susceptible to stealth multiplier. Cherry on the cake : any enemy caught by Lull will become unalerted upon waking up.

Desolate Hands, your third ability, summons daggers around you. Each daggers will seek the weapon of an enemy if they come too close, causing the weapon to explode and permanently disarming the enemy. The weapon explosion deals a bit of damage, but it's not really the main perk of Desolate Hands : for each dagger orbiting around you, you are granted 10% of damage reduction, capping at 90%. Power strength also increase the dagger you carry, thus raising the amount of daggers you can afford to lose before seeing your damage mitigation dwindling. This is the power you're going to rely on when Elude can't protect you. By the way, if Elude is up, the seeking range of your daggers is doubled. You can also grant daggers to nearby allies.

Your last ability is Serene Storm. It's an exalted weapon that is pretty much an amped up sparring melee weapon. Every attacks you make with it turns into a deadly shockwave that travels fairly far and deal as much damage as your punches. Serene storm is very well known to trigger ragdolls on live targets up the wazoo, easily sending enemies flying everywhere. Also, it gives you 25% damage reduction while you're using them, capped at 40% if you get yourself some power strenght.

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Personal Modding and Playstyle :

Now I'm gonna say something rather brave and maybe controversial : despite what you could think about, Baruuk is NOT a melee oriented warframe. Strange statement ? Let me explain : Serene Storm despite summoning an exalted melee has the annoying tendency of sending stuff flying everywhere. However, it does have a quite big range so you can keep hitting stuff with your shockwaves while the ability is active. Due to all of that, its wiser to consider Serene Storm as some kind of Arca Plasmor, that you can use for low to mid range attacks. Also, because you will lose Desolate Hands daggers if enemies get too close, you definitely don't want stuff to be in your personal space. Due to those two facts, Baruuk is pretty much a warframe that suits a mid-ranged playstyle better rather than a close combat playstyle in my opinion.

Modding wise, Baruuk should allow for many kind of builds depening if you want to play with a high power strength or a high range. I decided to mod my Baruuk primarily for power strength (Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Augur Secret), with 70% power efficiency (Fleeting Expertize rank 3, Streamline) and total disdain for power duration. Why ? Because lull is pretty much the only thing meaningfully affected by it, and lull's duration is already bonkers : 25s at 100% power duration. 35% duration reduces the sleep duration to 8-ish seconds, which is far enough to clean up everything with the melee weapon of your choice (or Serene Storm) afterwards. It's safe to bet that your nukers will kill everything before they are put to sleep anyway. I then just slapped redirection because Shields work nicely if you can pile up some insane DR on you, and was left with two optional slots. I went for cunning drift and streamlined form because I like sliding a lot and faster weapon switch. Didn't went for Maglev because it would have reqired me to spend another forma that I do not currently own.

Range is an interesting option on Baruuk since it increases the angle at which Elude evades attacks and the already insane range of Lull at which it puts stuff to sleep, but it can also make keeping your daggers more tedious if you need damage reduction. I decided to play without any meaningful bonus to my range in my case as I viewed my damage reduction from Desolate Hands as more imporant than anything else. Lull has an insane range from the start anyway.

Power duration only increases the already insane sleep duration of Lull and lower the cost over time of Elude which is already fairly small by itself, so I chose to ignore it. I guess you could get something interesting for keeping your daggers with Narrow Minded though since it reduces your range, but it would also affect Lull negatively, so I decided to not do that. I like 25m for Lull.

The first thing I do in a mission is using Desolate Hands so I can take hits. I use Elude and Lull mostly for eroding my restraint and sometimes when I'm starting to really get under pressure. I start using Serene Storm when the situation if favorable. I'm probably a bit too stingy when it comes about spending my restraint though. An important point about playing Baruuk like this is to make sure to always have at least 9 daggers on you at all times. Sustaining Desolate Hands is the most important thing, since surviving is effectively the most important quality you need to have when playing Warframe at "endgame" levels.

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Critiques :

My first concern about Baruuk was whether or not Elude was an actually useful part of his kit considering the absolutely outrageous amount of damage reduction Baruuk is able to get. It only took a single level 50 mobile defense against the grineer to dicover that Elude has indeed a place in your kit if you need to survive under pressure. Desolate Hands may allow you to be very resistant, you'll still get moments where you need to reload that flimsy shield of yours. When those moments will happen, Elude will be very precious.

I was also worried about Elude forcing you to have a fairly passive playstyle, which is something that doesn't pair well with what Warframe is all about (aka killing stuff). It does reward a rather passive and cautious playstyle, but it isn't as bad as I expected since you can still count on two other abilities as a more active way to erode your retraint. Still, when the right situation happens, Elude is by far the best power to erode your retraint : a single enemy with a high fire rate is usually enough to erode roughly 50% of your retraint if you stay under its fire for roughly 2s. I kinda wish offense wasn't utterly incompatible with your 1st power though, since Warframe's cooperative ambiance absolutely require you be active and kill stuff as soon as you have them on slight. Otherwise, you end up being that poor guy who just made 2% of the team damage done, which probably means that you allies stole all the fun. Some of you will reply it doesn't matter : I respect that opinion, but in my case I'd feel fairly annoyed to pass a whole 30 minutes mission without being able to kill a single enemy because all of my allies are able to nuke stuff on sight while I can't. Still, Elude isn't a bad power or a bad concept, though I do think the pacifist thing should be slightly tweaked. I'd also like to have an a visual representation of the angle covered by Elude as a quality of life improvement.

Lull, on the other hand, despite its gigantic base range and base duration, is a concept that rubs me the wrong way. It's not that much of a bad power, but it fails at doing something that you absolutely want a CC power to do : instantly disabling a threat. Using a CC power usually means that you need some breathing room right here right now. Lull cannot do that. Instead, the enemies will progressively slow down over what seems to be roughly 3 seconds (maybe less) before starting an animation and go to sleep. This greatly harms the usefulness of that power, especially when playing in cooperation with allies that will probably nuke stuff on sight while not being as resistant as you are. Now I do agree that putting all enemies to sleep in a 25m radius for 25s for 50 energy would be downright insanely overpowered, but I do think some middle ground can be achieved in some way. Also, it would be awesome if sentinels didn't shoot at the enemies I just lulled : having enemies waking up before I can finish them off because my sentinel is too trigger happy is annoying.

Desolate Hands was a power I looked down heavily at first. To me it was basically a bad CC power, only disabling gun wielding enemies close to you while ignoring everything long ranged. Then I learned that each dagger carried gives you 10% of DR, thus making Desolate Hands one of your best power. Welp, slap me on the face, that will teach me about judging stuff too early. However I'm not satisfied at 100% with the state of that ability, because it could also fill a niche that isn't already taken by Lull. Think about it : Lull is a CC power centered on yourself. It slows then disable enemies for a long duration. The daggers of Desolate Hands also disable stuff coming near you, one by one though, but instantly. But what about disabling stuff at range ? It's a shame we can't toss those daggers on key targets from afar. It would allow for some nifty tactical play too.

I don't have a lot of criticism to give to Serene Storm, especially since I don't consider Serene Storm as a melee weapon, and more like some kind of absolutely unstable Arca Plasmor. I do however think it's a bit of a shame that you cannot increase combo counter with the shockwaves, especially when you consider the fact that anything you hit at point blank will be ragdolled away. To many melee user, this would be a dealbreaker. To me though, it just makes the ability more fun since I absolutely love ragdolling stuff everywhere. I just wish the special effects of the ability weren't so blinding so I can admire the fruits of my mischiefs. I also think the wind up before pulling the weapon out should be lowered as a QoL improvement.

Finally, Baruuk is plagued with a lot of small animations here and there that requires you to stop where you are. Most of them don't take long at all, but they do feel like they hinder fluidity for no good reason. In the case of Lull, making you sit where you are is perfectly justifiable considering the high duration and range of the ability, but when it comes about Elude, Desolate Hands and Serene Storm, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow the user to move while casting those three. It would simply make Baruuk feel more fluid, and fludity always feel nicer for the user.

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Suggestions :

Considering the criticism brought in the precedent part, I'd like to suggest the following improvements :

  • Elude :
    • Replace "evade inactive while attacking" by "evade angle reduced by 80% while attacking". Attacking while Elude is up should still have consequences, but you shouldn't be utterly discouraged from doing what Warframe is all about : killing and looting.
    • [QoL] Give us a way to have a visual representation of Elude's evade angle.
    • [QoL] Allow Baruuk to move around while casting Elude. It would help giving a better impression of fluidity.
  • Lull :
    • Scale the speed at which enemies fall asleep depending of how close they are from you. Enemies who are very close to you should fall asleep instantly, while enemies on the edge of the AoE should take as much as to fall asleep as they currently do.
      • If this is easier, simply cut the AoE in two, with a rather small inner radius and an outer radius. Enemies in the inner radius would be instantly put to sleep because they're in your personal "danger zone", while other enemies would take as much time to fall asleep as they do currently.
    • Prevent sentinels from firing at lulled enemies, or make it so sentinel attacks don't wake up sleeping enemies.
      • Extend this to all sleep based abilities actually.
  • Desolate Hands :
    • Allow us to manually toss daggers to allies and enemies by holding the ability button.
      • Alternatively, simply make the remaining daggers seek enemies to disarm or allies to equip if you recast the ability.
    • [QoL] Allow us to move while using Desolate Hands. The cast time is fairly low so it wouldn't be absolutely broken. It would just make the gameplay feel more pleasent and fluid.
  • Serene Storm :
    • [QoL] Lower the wind up time required to summon your exalted weapon. Less downtime means more fluidity. More fluidity is more enjoyment.
    • [QoL] Reduce the amount of special effect coming from Baruuk's attacks. Or at least make it so they don't hide the stuff you're whacking as much.
    • [QoL] Allow us to move while summoning Serene Storm. Would fluidify the gameplay a bit, and fluidity always feels nice.

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Conclusion :

Baruuk is a nice surprise. While I still think he needs improvements here and there, he's definitely a warframe worth your time if you're looking for a warframe with a simple playstyle or an unorthodox tank. His 4 abilities remain rather useful and he's also fairly viable for high level missions thanks to his insane survivability. I kinda like him, and he's definitely not the Warframe that needs the most help right now (I'm mostly thinking about Banshee and Mirage). However I really think the few improvements I suggested above would be really nice and make his concept perfect for the game as it is currently.

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TL:DR :

This section only contains my main gripes and the suggested solutions. I still greatly encourage you to read the whole thread though.

  • Elude only operates when you don't attack, which is something that goes against the spirit of the game. I suggest to lower the evade angle by 80% instead of outright cancelling it when you attack so attacking still makes you vulnerable, but you're still allowed to take risks.
  • Lull should provide some form of instant CC, but simply making enemies sleep for 25s on a 25m radius for 50 energy would be OP. How about simply scaling the speed at which enemies fall asleep the closer they are from you ? It's still reasonable for a high range/duration power with 50 energy IMO.
  • Prevent sentinels and pets from hitting sleeping enemies.
  • It would be lovely to be able to manually toss the daggers from Desolate Hands.
  • I love Serene Storm though it blinds me a bit too much. A but less effects on the center of the screen would be cool.
  • Serene Storm takes a bit too much time to pop out. I think it could use to be summoned a bit faster.
  • There's many animations that forces you to stop. I think allowing you to move while casting Elude, Desolate Hands and Serene Storm would be great to give a better feel of fluidity.

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EDIT :

After a bit of discussion, I thought it could actually be interesting to go deeper in the change suggestions and propose a complete rework alongside the simple suggestions provided above.

 

The rework suggestion :

  • Stats :
    • Health : 75-225 -> 100-300
    • Armor : 150 -> 225
      • In this rework, I wanted to butcher the DR Desolate Hands, so I had to put survivability somewhere else. Increasing Baruuk's EHP is an obvious first step.
  • Passive :
    • Stays the same.
      • I didn't want to take too much risks here.
  • Desolate Hands :
    • Reworked !
    • Now becomes your first ability. It costs 25 energy
    • Throw a dagger that knocks down and disarm enemies in a small AoE.
    • Also disable eximus and ancient aura effects.
    • Erode 5% of restraint for each enemy hit by the AoE. Capped at 20%.
    • Disarm is permament.
  • Elude :
    • Moved to ability 2.
    • Attacking reduce Elude angle by 80% instead of disabling it momentarily.
    • Removed synergy with desolate hands.
    • Each kills while elude is active erodes 2% of your restraint, but also increase Elude's energy cost over time by 10%.
      • You can still quickly disable and reactivate it to reset the cost of course.
  • Lull :
    • Moved to ability 3.
    • Slightly reworked. Still gets a similar gameplay.
    • Instead of generating a sigil for 5s that puts enemies to sleep for 20s, generates a sigil for 25s.
    • Enemies are slowed down depending of how close they are from the center.
      • The closer they get from the center, the more they will slow down.
    • Enemies too close from the center will be put to sleep.
    • Grants to you and allies 75% of DR if you stay inside of it.
    • Can be increased up to 90% DR with enough power strength.
    • The Sigil remains on the floor as long as you remain inside of it.
      • If you leave the sigil, it will linger for a few seconds and disappear if you don't come back on it after that delay.
      • If you leave the sigil, the DR bonus will also linger on you as long as the the sigil does not disappear.
    • Can be recasted while active.
      • The newer instance will replace the older one.
    • Disarmed enemies will be instantly put to sleep by Lull, no matter how close from the center those enemies are located.
    • Enemies waking up cannot be put to sleep again by the same instance of Lull.
    • Erodes 1.5% restraint for each enemy affected.
    • Cost increased to 75 energy to compensate for the DR buff.
    • Radius reduced from 25m to 15m (at max rank) to compensate for the DR buff.
    • Sentinels does not wake up sleeping enemies.
    • Daggers from Desolate Hands does not wake up already sleeping enemies.
    • Credits to @Teridax68 for the initial Lull sigil idea.
  • Serene Storm :
    • Damage increased from 250 impact to 350 impact.
    • Damage reduction from Serene Storm increased from 25% to 50%. Can be bumped up to 90% with power strength. Stacks multiplicatively 
      with your passive.
    • Each 1% percent of restraint restored by Serene Storm restores your energy by 0.5%.
    • Cannot generate restraint while active.
      • This is compensated by the fact that you should now be able to erode your restraint faster as well as the fact that you earn energy from Serene Storm.
    • Provides changes to your 3 other abilities while active to reflect your much more agressive state, trading defense for sheer offense.
      • Desolate hands now strips armor and shields instead of disarming.
        • Stiil knocks down enemies.
        • Stripping power affected by power strength.
      • Elude's evade angle is permanently reduced by 80%, but your movement speed is vastly increased while active.
      • Lull now provides damage increase to yourself instead of damage reduction.
        • Cannot sleep enemies anymore
        • Still slows enemies, but the slow effect cannot exceed minimal value.
        • Also increase range of the Sigil by 40% while active.
    • Holding Serene Storm triggers an explosion centered on yourself, restoring all your lost restraint while ragdolling and damaging nearby enemies.
      • Restraint restoration still replenish 0.5% of energy per 1% of restraint restored.

My main goal was to make every abilities synergizing or completing each other in their own way. Your main method of earning DR requires a rather static gameplay, so Elude should find a much more important role at damage mitigation if you need to be on the move. The rework of Desolate Hands gives you a new tool allowing you to tactically and actively disarm enemies that works decently in all situations. I also wanted to make eroding your restraint overall faster yet more active, while making sure that none of your three ways to lose restraint would impair each other. No matter what you do, using your three abilities together should allow you to maximize your restraint erosion.

I also wanted to make Baruuk much more violent once you erode your restraint and use serene storm, to the point where you playstyle changes subtlely. Fuelled by wrath, all your abilities lose most of their defensive properties to become way more offensive. Desolate Hands turns into a debuff, Lull makes you and your team hit harder, Elude allows you to get up close and personal with your fists ready to teach the first enemy coming by how to fly. Meanwhile, shreer wrath still ensures you won't go down too easily thanks to the improved, built in DR of Serene Storm. Amazing ? Amazing. Did I mention that Serene Storm allows you to get your energy back too ? Perfect to fuel your other abilities again and prepare a new one.

Now this version is probably far from perfect. My suggested values probably needs tweaks, and there might be some problems I didn't think of. Don't hesitate to give me your opinions about all of that stuff.

Edited by LascarCapable
Added rework suggestion.
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10 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Elude only operates when you don't attack, which is something that goes against the spirit of the game. I suggest to lower the evade angle by 80% instead of outright cancelling it when you attack so attacking still makes you vulnerable, but you're still allowed to take risks.

His Elude should have been an ability that allows the Frame a % chance to evade projectiles or physical attacks rather then being unable to attack to Evade damage, or even give it a health regeneration ability based % of Strength mods. When I played Kuva Lich with him, he got shredded with Adaptation & 324% Strength. Also, I think reducing the evade angle is a good idea as well. 

10 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Serene Storm takes a bit too much time to pop out. I think it could use to be summoned a bit faster.

I agree. The fact that a fourth ability takes this long to generate and deal horrendous damage needs to be looked at. Impact is horrible & it's presence effects many classes that have this as a primary status in a bad way; Atlas, Grendel, Baruuk, etc. Activating this ability when ever and having its damage increase and build upon activity length would be nice. Change impact to maybe slash and viral. 

10 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

It would be lovely to be able to manually toss the daggers from Desolate Hands.

Instead of seeking out an ally and placing 1 dagger at a time, It would be nice to just give them the full amount needed. Also, take away blast and add slash damage with a multiplayer crit/crit damage. If you hold onto the ability it manually tosses all daggers at said mob, would be cool. 

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2 hours ago, Mardomus said:

His Elude should have been an ability that allows the Frame a % chance to evade projectiles or physical attacks rather then being unable to attack to Evade damage, or even give it a health regeneration ability based % of Strength mods. When I played Kuva Lich with him, he got shredded with Adaptation & 324% Strength. Also, I think reducing the evade angle is a good idea as well. 

I'd rather keep the current logic for Elude. Percentage based chance to evade would just make the ability feel unreliable since whether you get hit or not would be decided by RNG, plus it would feel absolutely awful. Right now, Elude can be popped if you have to sit in a specific area to allow yourself to regen your shields. Desolate Hands does most of the tanking, but Elude gives you that needed breathing room when under pressure. If the ability was percentage based, it would mean that you could be unable to regenerate your shields in situations of heavy fire since there would be always that one bullet hitting you just before starting a regen, unless there's a way to get 100% of evade chance, and in this case it would make the ability flat out overpowered. I also don't think health regen is necessary considering how strong Elude as a concept. Just making the drawback of Elude less drastic when you attack (heavily reduced angle instead of literally losing it) would be a better thing to do, because it would still be something you control instead of counting on luck.

I'm surprised you're suggesting to reduce the evade angle considering that you've declared you died to a Lich while I assume having Elude active. Reducing the Evade angle would just make the ability less effective. Unless you're suggesting that as a compensation for your design change ? Either way, I wouldn't recommend making Elude's escape decided by RNG at all.

One thing that could work is simply removing the "disable on attack" drawback, but reducing the dodge angle as a compensation for losing that drawback, though I don't think removing that drawback is especially needed. It create an interesting gameplay gimmick where you're encouraged to wait for the right moment before attacking. I just think that drawback needs to be tuned down a bit for the sake of coop gameplay in an ecosystem full of nukers and rushers. Still getting that damage avoidance thing but at a reduced angle when attacking as suggested in the OP could do the trick.

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I agree. The fact that a fourth ability takes this long to generate and deal horrendous damage needs to be looked at. Impact is horrible & it's presence effects many classes that have this as a primary status in a bad way; Atlas, Grendel, Baruuk, etc. Activating this ability when ever and having its damage increase and build upon activity length would be nice. Change impact to maybe slash and viral. 

I actually never stated the ability dealt bad damage, though I wouldn't mind a small damage buff.

Impact isn't that bad when you think about it, only being subject to a 25% damage decrease against flesh and cloned flesh, yet having no drawback or strength against the infested (infested flesh takes 100% damage no matter what) and having some nice bonuses against grineer machines (hardly matters, granted) and shields (kinda matters). Changing damage to slash wouldn't make that much sense : not only it's not fiting thematically but it would also make the weapon even less effective against alloy armor, which is used by most problematic heavy grineer units (aka the most dangerous stuff you'll tend to deal with in the game). Most people tend to forget that very crippling -50% damage against alloy armor Slash has. You need a decent status chance to base yourself on Slash, and it's not something Serene Storm allows you to do since your exalted melee has only a 10% proc chance. As for Viral, it could work, but let's not forget its crippling issues against the infested. Both elements together would sort of compensate each other, but they would literally go against Baruuk's theme. Baruuk would rather fight enemies with blunt trauma if pushed to the edge : concussion over litteral death.

Better just improve the base damage of Desert Wind. Pure impact is fine, especially if you have a decent amount of base damage to make up for that small 25% damage decrease to Flesh/Cloned Flesh. Impact proc sucks, but Desert Wind isn't a status based melee to begin with.

Quote

Instead of seeking out an ally and placing 1 dagger at a time, It would be nice to just give them the full amount needed. Also, take away blast and add slash damage with a multiplayer crit/crit damage. If you hold onto the ability it manually tosses all daggers at said mob, would be cool. 

Same issue with changing the dagger with slash than precedently quoted : Baruuk is a pacifist at heart until he loses it. He's tries to incapacitate enemies rather than killing them. The daggers seek the enemy weapons, so making the daggers slash based doesn't make that much sense (weapons don't bleed I guess). Giving crit chance to daggers doesn't matter as well. The goal of Desolate Hands isn't to kill stuff, and it's not fitting thematically. The only damaging thing in Baruuk's kit should kill is Serene Storm : this is the essence of the warframe, the whole logic behind it. You use your first 3 abilities to calm people down and avoid conflict until you get angry enough to say "that's it, you get the paddlin" and go haywire. Of course it doesn't translate like that in game since the player has full control on how Baruuk is played, but respecting the theme of a warframe is important in my opinion.

Now about the ally dagger part, I have to admit I didn't play Baruuk with friends yet to know how the dagger giving part works. But if it takes too long to give dagger to allies, it's a problem. Allies should definitely be instantly granted daggers on cast. Not just be awarded daggers little by little. Add to this the fact that it makes allies drain your personal DR. I should probably add that to the OP.

As for manually tossing daggers, it's in the OP already. Glad you agree with it. :)

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So first off, this is some of the cleanest presentation I've seen for a thread OP on here, and I very much appreciate the fact that it's structured in such a way that the player can understand the rationale behind the changes, beyond just the specific proposals. As for Baruuk specifically, I do agree with much of the broad criticism: putting aside animation-related fluidity problems which I think are a problem on pretty much every single warframe (the sooner we realize that this is not a game designed to interrupt our actions just to make us admire some canned animation over and over again, the better), I also agree that the current implementation of Baruuk's pacifist theme is dysfunctional as it runs counter to how players are expected to fight, with no substantial payoff. I also agree that Lull could stand to be quicker and have less anti-synergy with companions, while Desolate Hands could likely be more interesting if its projectiles could be thrown manually, instead of functioning like Nova's Null Star.

However, I also personally feel a bit differently about Baruuk, in that I like him a lot less for a whole bunch of reasons: on a broad level, I think his kit is full of redundancy and anti-synergy, with design and balance issues that make him much less active than he could be. As for specifics:

  • Innate is fine on its own merits.
  • Elude is where we start to run into redundancy, because already we have a total damage evasion effect in a kit that has multiple other sources of damage reduction. Do we go for DR, then, or evasion? Currently, the answer seems to have largely been to go for DR, because Elude is inconsistent with how it stops some, but not all instances of damage, and is pretty binary in that it's considered either usable if enough Range is used to boost it to 360 degrees, or not all that useful if below by even a sliver. Perhaps a clear indicator how the angle of evasion would help, but that still leaves Baruuk open to situations where he gets hit from behind by stuff he can't really anticipate. Also, as with the above, there's no offensive payoff when Baruuk holds off his attacks, so he just gets rewarded for passivity.
  • No additional criticism for Lull, really, the ability's core problem is that it's too slow to be useful.
  • Another DR effect on Desolate Hands, which adds to the redundancy in Baruuk's kit, but on top of that its implementation makes the ability at odds with itself: the initial impression one may get from it is that one should cast it, then wade into the enemy to disarm them (especially because Baruuk also has a melee Exalted Weapon), but in practice the DR is so much more valuable than the disarm (and certainly the damage, which achieves nothing here) that he's instead encouraged to hang back and shoot. Its "synergy" with Lull makes this worse by discouraging Baruuk from using the abilities in tandem, for fear of losing his charges. I'd say this is arguably the messiest and least functional ability in Baruuk's kit.
  • Serene Storm is okay for disruptive group CC, but I think fails as a weapon due to its awful scaling. Impact damage is horrible against armor, and the Exalted Weapon's low status chance prevents building Corrosive damage to make up for it. Oh, and it's also got DR on, for whichever reason.

Effectively, Baruuk currently has no real incentive to get into the thick of combat, and while that could perhaps be thematically fine, it isn't when his pacifist theme merely translates to extremely passive gameplay akin to pre-rework Wukong. His payoff for holding back is supposed to be this amazing, exceptionally gated Exalted Weapon, but the weapon is outdone by much easier competition. In a bid to establish multiple playstyles, the designer(s) inadvertently cleaved Baruuk's kit and made it undesirable to use all of his abilities on the same build. On top of that, he's got gratuitious DR everywhere on top of an evasion effect, and despite being supposed to offer up CC, his crowd control is easily outperformed by plenty of other frames. As such, while the changes suggested in the OP could go a long way towards significantly improving him, I personally feel he might need deeper changes to truly work.

An example of what I'd suggest to fix him:

  • As with the OP, make all of Baruuk's animations one-handed at most, so that one can move and cast fluidly.
  • Passive:
    • Remove the DR.
    • Have some mechanic that gives offensive potential to Baruuk for tanking peacefully. For example: enemies in combat with Baruuk are eventually spirited away (i.e. killed), on a delay based on their current health, their proximity to Baruuk, which abilities he's affecting them with, etc.
  • Elude:
    • Change the evasion to complete untargetability from all sides.
    • Remove the delay between Baruuk attacking and the buff returning.
    • In order to have some sort of scaling, have the untargetability extend to an aura of attack nullification around Baruuk (scaling with Range), within which allies could be protected.
  • Lull:
    • As suggested in the OP, making at least some area of its sleep instant (if not all of it) would be great.
  • Desolate Hands:
    • I think the ability needs a redo. One example of a replacement: have Baruuk fire a single dagger at a tiny cost that explodes to disarm and taunt enemies around the impact (scaling with Range), while causing them to take significantly increased damage (affected by Strength, with the whole debuff based on Duration). With this you could even swap Desolate Hands and Elude around for keybinds.
  • Serene Storm:
    • This should apply to all Exalted Weapons, but there's no reason for the Desert Wind to not be able to use Acolyte mods.
    • As with the passive, remove the DR so that Elude becomes the standout damage mitigation tool.
    • As suggested in the OP's criticism, have the shockwaves contribute to the combo counter.
    • Implement one or more of the following to let the weapon scale better:
      • Change its base damage type from Impact to True damage.
      • Bump up its status chance to make it Status-viable, e.g. 20, 25, or even 30%.

General idea is to keep his core contribution of CC, but also make his tankiness more consistent overall and less spread over various scattered DR effects, and let him contribute in his own way, whether it's by having an Exalted Weapon that always stays good at killing, or some other combat bonus for defending. I think Baruuk is perhaps the closest Warframe currently has to the classic MMO tank archetype, in that he lives to crowd control enemies and deal with heavy incoming fire, which is also why I think a taunt could help him out (along with a few other tanky frames).

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Pretty nice write up.  I don't have anything against your proposed changes.  I have my own issues though.

I don't particularly enjoy how Baruuk largely doesn't interact with the enemies.  It feels like i'm doing a lot of waiting around just so I can use his 4.  I think the idea of his pacifist style is interesting and I wouldn't want DE to ditch it.  But they really need to address how disjointed it feels to play him when not using your 4.  It's all well and cool that he's got several ways to survive.  But just surviving isn't very engaging gameplay.

I really like the idea of reducing the angle of your elude when attacking.  Though I feel allowing people to attack with this up will just encourage people to have it switched on all the time.  Which I don't think was ever the design intent of the ability.  Unfortunately you've nailed it on the head about lull. Low duration basically lets you spam his lull thus dramatically increasing your erosion rate.  In fact both lull and desolate hands are designed to allow you to ignore their effects so you can spam them to burn your meter quickly.  Recasting desolate hands will make daggers hit people you've already disarmed.

I dislike that personally.  I don't like how spamming is encouraged over using the utility of the abilities.  But lull as an ability is still my favorite ability of his kit.  Desolate hands on the other....hand..is my least favorite of his kit.  I don't like the lack of control over the ability at all.  It disarms who it wants when it wants.  You're basically forced into spamming this ability not only to build meter but to actually take reasonable advantage of the DR it provides.  It makes me anxious as heck.

Serene storm i'm mixed on.  Lovely animations.  cool that it's more utility over damage.  Sucks to get to.  Sucks when you're not using.  Losing it's uniqueness because standard weapons can apply lift now.  You're basically a turret.  Damage is okay against trash.  It would probably be better if I modded him out to use the sacrificial mods to just go full hard on it's already generous base crit.  But I don't know.

He's a cool frame in concept.  I don't enjoy how he actually plays though.

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11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So first off, this is some of the cleanest presentation I've seen for a thread OP on here, and I very much appreciate the fact that it's structured in such a way that the player can understand the rationale behind the changes, beyond just the specific proposals. As for Baruuk specifically, I do agree with much of the broad criticism: putting aside animation-related fluidity problems which I think are a problem on pretty much every single warframe (the sooner we realize that this is not a game designed to interrupt our actions just to make us admire some canned animation over and over again, the better), I also agree that the current implementation of Baruuk's pacifist theme is dysfunctional as it runs counter to how players are expected to fight, with no substantial payoff. I also agree that Lull could stand to be quicker and have less anti-synergy with companions, while Desolate Hands could likely be more interesting if its projectiles could be thrown manually, instead of functioning like Nova's Null Star.

However, I also personally feel a bit differently about Baruuk, in that I like him a lot less for a whole bunch of reasons: on a broad level, I think his kit is full of redundancy and anti-synergy, with design and balance issues that make him much less active than he could be. As for specifics:

  • Innate is fine on its own merits.
  • Elude is where we start to run into redundancy, because already we have a total damage evasion effect in a kit that has multiple other sources of damage reduction. Do we go for DR, then, or evasion? Currently, the answer seems to have largely been to go for DR, because Elude is inconsistent with how it stops some, but not all instances of damage, and is pretty binary in that it's considered either usable if enough Range is used to boost it to 360 degrees, or not all that useful if below by even a sliver. Perhaps a clear indicator how the angle of evasion would help, but that still leaves Baruuk open to situations where he gets hit from behind by stuff he can't really anticipate. Also, as with the above, there's no offensive payoff when Baruuk holds off his attacks, so he just gets rewarded for passivity.
  • No additional criticism for Lull, really, the ability's core problem is that it's too slow to be useful.
  • Another DR effect on Desolate Hands, which adds to the redundancy in Baruuk's kit, but on top of that its implementation makes the ability at odds with itself: the initial impression one may get from it is that one should cast it, then wade into the enemy to disarm them (especially because Baruuk also has a melee Exalted Weapon), but in practice the DR is so much more valuable than the disarm (and certainly the damage, which achieves nothing here) that he's instead encouraged to hang back and shoot. Its "synergy" with Lull makes this worse by discouraging Baruuk from using the abilities in tandem, for fear of losing his charges. I'd say this is arguably the messiest and least functional ability in Baruuk's kit.
  • Serene Storm is okay for disruptive group CC, but I think fails as a weapon due to its awful scaling. Impact damage is horrible against armor, and the Exalted Weapon's low status chance prevents building Corrosive damage to make up for it. Oh, and it's also got DR on, for whichever reason.

Effectively, Baruuk currently has no real incentive to get into the thick of combat, and while that could perhaps be thematically fine, it isn't when his pacifist theme merely translates to extremely passive gameplay akin to pre-rework Wukong. His payoff for holding back is supposed to be this amazing, exceptionally gated Exalted Weapon, but the weapon is outdone by much easier competition. In a bid to establish multiple playstyles, the designer(s) inadvertently cleaved Baruuk's kit and made it undesirable to use all of his abilities on the same build. On top of that, he's got gratuitious DR everywhere on top of an evasion effect, and despite being supposed to offer up CC, his crowd control is easily outperformed by plenty of other frames. As such, while the changes suggested in the OP could go a long way towards significantly improving him, I personally feel he might need deeper changes to truly work.

An example of what I'd suggest to fix him:

  • As with the OP, make all of Baruuk's animations one-handed at most, so that one can move and cast fluidly.
  • Passive:
    • Remove the DR.
    • Have some mechanic that gives offensive potential to Baruuk for tanking peacefully. For example: enemies in combat with Baruuk are eventually spirited away (i.e. killed), on a delay based on their current health, their proximity to Baruuk, which abilities he's affecting them with, etc.
  • Elude:
    • Change the evasion to complete untargetability from all sides.
    • Remove the delay between Baruuk attacking and the buff returning.
    • In order to have some sort of scaling, have the untargetability extend to an aura of attack nullification around Baruuk (scaling with Range), within which allies could be protected.
  • Lull:
    • As suggested in the OP, making at least some area of its sleep instant (if not all of it) would be great.
  • Desolate Hands:
    • I think the ability needs a redo. One example of a replacement: have Baruuk fire a single dagger at a tiny cost that explodes to disarm and taunt enemies around the impact (scaling with Range), while causing them to take significantly increased damage (affected by Strength, with the whole debuff based on Duration). With this you could even swap Desolate Hands and Elude around for keybinds.
  • Serene Storm:
    • This should apply to all Exalted Weapons, but there's no reason for the Desert Wind to not be able to use Acolyte mods.
    • As with the passive, remove the DR so that Elude becomes the standout damage mitigation tool.
    • As suggested in the OP's criticism, have the shockwaves contribute to the combo counter.
    • Implement one or more of the following to let the weapon scale better:
      • Change its base damage type from Impact to True damage.
      • Bump up its status chance to make it Status-viable, e.g. 20, 25, or even 30%.

General idea is to keep his core contribution of CC, but also make his tankiness more consistent overall and less spread over various scattered DR effects, and let him contribute in his own way, whether it's by having an Exalted Weapon that always stays good at killing, or some other combat bonus for defending. I think Baruuk is perhaps the closest Warframe currently has to the classic MMO tank archetype, in that he lives to crowd control enemies and deal with heavy incoming fire, which is also why I think a taunt could help him out (along with a few other tanky frames).

First of all, thank you for your appreciation of the OP, and thank you for your answer. It really bring something good on the table.

Your whole post is actually the exact same thoughts I had before and upon trying Baruuk for my first three hours, until I just got a sudden enlightment that I also described in the OP : Baruuk is just not a close combat frame, or at least does not seem designed as one despite having an exalted melee weapon. You seem to mention that later in the post as well. As soon as you realize that, it's some kind of epiphany and everything starts to make more sense. Lull has a crazy base range because you're not gonna get close from enemies with your daggers out, Elude is there because even with 90% DR from Desolate Hands you may need breathing room to regenerate shields and not getting hit helps that. Serene Storm tends to push stuff away from you (and your daggers), but shockwaves have a very high reach. That reasoning is far from perfect because there's still some discutable things in the kit that kinda ruin that mindset or just doesn't make sense, but Baruuk tends to work much better when used like that from my own experience.

About Elude, I'm fine with it existing alongside your DR power : if you play Baruuk with shields, Elude allows you to trigger that shield regen since it literally prevents you from getting hit by melee or shot, thus guaranteeing yourself that your shields will start regenerating as long as no AoE enemy is present. The power isn't really "unreliable". It just does not block any kind of AoE damage by design. Hence, when facing a group of enemies and running low on shields, you'll need to either reposition, prioritize targets, or cast Lull. It's mostly a situation matter. I know most players probably would rather user health with something to trigger health regen, but when you have 90% DR on demand, shields usually do the work. Of course, triggering Elude means that you will lose your daggers at a faster rate, but only one pops out every 2 second or something like that, and you can still recast Desolate Hands afterwards. The synergy is kinda bad, but it's not as problematic as it looks.

Nothing to say about your critique of Lull since it's basically the same as mine. :p

About Desolate Hands, I agree, the ability by itself is just wierd. You want to toss those daggers but they're better on you. It's a mess. It's still your best ability at the moment though. The ideal would be a redesign. I didn't suggest a redesign in the OP because I though suggesting a flat out redesign would make my post less likely to be taken into account, but when you think about it, it's really needed. These daggers needs to be thrown, not to be shared or give some DR. The survivability component of Baruuk should probably come from somewhere else. Another anti-synergy I just realized by the way : Elude is typically the best tool for eroding restraint you can get, but once you disarm enemies, they can't shoot at you, so you usually generate less restraint. So in a way the Elude + Desolate Hands synergy is even more antisynergic... Ouch. We still gotta keep in mind however that we absolutely need that 90% DR currently.

About Serene Storm, you're mentionning that Impact Damage sucks against anything armored, but impact damage actually only has a -25% damage reduction against flesh and cloned flesh. Its damage against armor is actually neutral, though of course high armor would screw you up like any other weapon that isn't rather heavily oriented towards status. Just a small precision here : Impact is not as bad as it looks, though it's definitely one of the weaker elements. However, after playing a few hours again, I'm starting to agree that Baruuk's damage output with Serene Storm is rather disappointing considering its gated aspect.


Now about the rework you suggested :

It's a decent attempt at recreating Baruuk, with what seem to be a much more close ranged playstyle. There's a lot to say about it though :

  • It seems like you removed all kind of DR just to make Elude the only remaining way to avoid getting damaged. You modified it to be more potent for that close ranged playstyle as well. This is, you seem to have removed all forms of DR from Baruuk's kit. This means that due to Baruuk now only relying on Elude at close range to evade attacks and Baruuk's extremely low base EHP, stray bullets from afar will become rather deadly past the level 60 park. Of course the size of the aura would greatly affect Elude's effectiveness at keeping you alive, but the 90% DR provided by Desolate Hands was much more reliable at keeping you alive. Add to this that you didn't mention anything about Elude now being able to avoid any kind of AoE damage, and you would get a warframe that would crumble as soon as a Bombard would appear in a tight corridor.
  • Nothing much to say about your Lull suggestion since you basically approved what I said in the OP. I'd just say however that applying instant sleep on the whole AoE would be overpowered. Consider this : 25m base range that sleeps instantly enemies for 20s base duration, for just 50 energy. It would have been fine on a 100 energy power, but here we're talking about a 50 energy power, so instant sleep on the whole circle would be really too much. Actually, I am not even satisfied with my suggestion after re-reading it. I should probably consider something else. Maybe even a rework of some sort.
  • I like what you did overall with Desolate Hands. Would make a good 1st ablity : I tend to appreciate simple projectiles you can spam around as a 1st ability. I think however the taunt aspect doesn't suit the pacifist theme of Baruuk, and so does the damage increase. I'd replace that with something else, even if it means dumping the "real tank" aspect of Baruuk. Maybe Rhino could be a better candidate for that to be honest. Put the taunt effect in his Roar, with Iron Skin and the rest of hit kit you'd get a really solid tank archetype.
  • Your suggestions for Serene Storm look fine to me. Now originally I was against changing the damage type of Baruuk since as a pacifist frame that can lose his calm blunt force feels more fitting that any kind of puncture, slash or whatever else (aside from magnetic, but magnetic is like impact with even worse drawbacks), but true damage seems oddly fitting and rather unique. I don't think increasing the status chance of serene storm would be necessary however, especially since you changed the damage type to "true" (which is unable to proc), but I don't mind that too much either. It's just a stat.
  • The Elude rework starts getting less appealing when you remember that Serene Storm has the tendency to ragdoll stuff away from you. Not necessarily problematic if you manage to quickly kill anything or at least keep it in ragdolled status until it dies, but it also means that you will push stuff away from your Elude's effective range. Thus, if you forget about the stuff you ragdolled away or end up with full restraint before finishing to kill anthing, you may end up with a bunch of enemies outside from your Serene Storm range ready to clap you. It probably won't be that much of an issue though, but I can see that happen.

 

If anything, I am starting to realize I also need myself to put more thoughts in my suggestion. The fact that I totally forgot to adress the elephant in the room that is the Elude + Desolate Hands combo is relevant of that. Perhaps I should actually consider some actual power reworks. I'll probably add an Edit to the OP later.

 

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11 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Pretty nice write up.  I don't have anything against your proposed changes.  I have my own issues though.

I don't particularly enjoy how Baruuk largely doesn't interact with the enemies.  It feels like i'm doing a lot of waiting around just so I can use his 4.  I think the idea of his pacifist style is interesting and I wouldn't want DE to ditch it.  But they really need to address how disjointed it feels to play him when not using your 4.  It's all well and cool that he's got several ways to survive.  But just surviving isn't very engaging gameplay.

I really like the idea of reducing the angle of your elude when attacking.  Though I feel allowing people to attack with this up will just encourage people to have it switched on all the time.  Which I don't think was ever the design intent of the ability.  Unfortunately you've nailed it on the head about lull. Low duration basically lets you spam his lull thus dramatically increasing your erosion rate.  In fact both lull and desolate hands are designed to allow you to ignore their effects so you can spam them to burn your meter quickly.  Recasting desolate hands will make daggers hit people you've already disarmed.

I dislike that personally.  I don't like how spamming is encouraged over using the utility of the abilities.  But lull as an ability is still my favorite ability of his kit.  Desolate hands on the other....hand..is my least favorite of his kit.  I don't like the lack of control over the ability at all.  It disarms who it wants when it wants.  You're basically forced into spamming this ability not only to build meter but to actually take reasonable advantage of the DR it provides.  It makes me anxious as heck.

Serene storm i'm mixed on.  Lovely animations.  cool that it's more utility over damage.  Sucks to get to.  Sucks when you're not using.  Losing it's uniqueness because standard weapons can apply lift now.  You're basically a turret.  Damage is okay against trash.  It would probably be better if I modded him out to use the sacrificial mods to just go full hard on it's already generous base crit.  But I don't know.

He's a cool frame in concept.  I don't enjoy how he actually plays though.

Thanks for the support.

There's a lot of stuff going against each other in Baruuk's kit that I actually didn't speak about in the OP. Actually I don't think those would be easy to solve with simple tweaks. I will need to throw some rework suggestions in there. One of those that comes to my mind is how much Elude doesn't synergize well with any kind of CC when used as a restraint generator. When Elude is up and you want to generate restraint, you don't want lull to be active nor you want to disarm enemies. The fact that Elude is technically your best way to lose retraint as well doesn't help.

About surviving not being engaging gameplay, I have to say that "surviving" became an absolutely mandatory requirement for anything "endgame" related (or at least it's how I feel about it). As of today, a reliable and powerful DR based power feels like an extreme necessity, and it's hard to justify the use of a warframe that doesn't have that IMO. 

I don't remember having mentionned lower duration on lull allowing you to cast it more often in the OP. It's a true fact though.

I wouldn't say spamming is encouraged for Baruuk, but low duration high range lull is definitely the second best way to erode restraint you can get. I also agree with the lack of interaction with Desolate Hands daggers being very disappointing. I want to rework it meaningfully so you actually have to actively throw daggers around at key targets, but fiding a way to keep those mandatory 90% DR without breaking something will be hard IMO.

I do think Serene Storm could use some kind of Buff. The concept isn't bad, and it's still one of the best ragdoll generator in the game IMO which is something I absolutely love. But if you're going to gate a weapon like that, you need to make it worth it indeed.

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7 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Your whole post is actually the exact same thoughts I had before and upon trying Baruuk for my first three hours, until I just got a sudden enlightment that I also described in the OP : Baruuk is just not a close combat frame, or at least does not seem designed as one despite having an exalted melee weapon. You seem to mention that later in the post as well.

Exactly! I think the key difference is our appreciation of it, as whereas your proposal embraces that and preserves Baruuk as a mid-range combatant, I personally take issue with it and suggested to make his kit function better at close ranges. Either direction could work, I'd say, given that his Exalted Weapon is a melee weapon that just so happens to project damaging waves.

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About Elude, I'm fine with it existing alongside your DR power : if you play Baruuk with shields, Elude allows you to trigger that shield regen since it literally prevents you from getting hit by melee or shot, thus guaranteeing yourself that your shields will start regenerating as long as no AoE enemy is present. The power isn't really "unreliable". It just does not block any kind of AoE damage by design. Hence, when facing a group of enemies and running low on shields, you'll need to either reposition, prioritize targets, or cast Lull. It's mostly a situation matter. I know most players probably would rather user health with something to trigger health regen, but when you have 90% DR on demand, shields usually do the work. Of course, triggering Elude means that you will lose your daggers at a faster rate, but only one pops out every 2 second or something like that, and you can still recast Desolate Hands afterwards. The synergy is kinda bad, but it's not as problematic as it looks.

I'd say I took the reverse approach regarding DR and Elude, in that I think it's the DR that's redundant, rather than Elude: Elude does provide breathing room for shield regen and the like, it's just that outside of it Baruuk just has lots of EHP steroids on top. It would be simpler for him to still have that breathing room without the DR, and if his persistent durability suffers, buffs to his health and/or armor would achieve the same effect. As for the ability's unreliability, perhaps this was fixed recently, but there are certain attacks that also ignore Baruuk's Elude beyond just AoE, namely Ancient attacks.

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Another anti-synergy I just realized by the way : Elude is typically the best tool for eroding restraint you can get, but once you disarm enemies, they can't shoot at you, so you usually generate less restraint. So in a way the Elude + Desolate Hands synergy is even more antisynergic... Ouch. We still gotta keep in mind however that we absolutely need that 90% DR currently.

Indeed, this creates a problem for mid-range Baruuk especially, since while reducing enemies to melee range would be okay for a melee-ranged frame that'd want to get hit, it doesn't work as well if the frame is meant to keep their distance. With that said, though, I also completely understand the pragmatic component of the OP, in that it's difficult to suggest bigger changes to a frame on the forums without having the proposal dismissed by other players as too much of a departure from the original, or too much work to do. Similarly, I agree that 90% DR steroids or the equivalent are unfortunately mandatory in the game's current state, if one wants a frame with regular base stats to not spontaneously blow up in high-level content. Much as I'd like to get rid of those as much as possible, and address the systemic problems with enemy scaling that are responsible, that's way out of scope here: Baruuk therefore still most likely needs persistent DR for practical reasons, though that could also be shifted to Elude, i.e. by changing the evasion to DR while attacking.

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About Serene Storm, you're mentionning that Impact Damage sucks against anything armored, but impact damage actually only has a -25% damage reduction against flesh and cloned flesh. Its damage against armor is actually neutral, though of course high armor would screw you up like any other weapon that isn't rather heavily oriented towards status. Just a small precision here : Impact is not as bad as it looks, though it's definitely one of the weaker elements. However, after playing a few hours again, I'm starting to agree that Baruuk's damage output with Serene Storm is rather disappointing considering its gated aspect.

The problem with Impact damage against armor isn't that it has some special weakness against it (as you pointed out, it doesn't), but that it lacks any sort of advantage against it: at high levels, the single biggest cause of bullet-sponge enemies is armor, which is why scaling builds typically incorporate Corrosive and/or Slash procs to deal with it. If a weapon cannot reduce or bypass armor sufficiently, it falls off relative to those that can, which is why Serene Storm doesn't scale very well due to its low status chance and damage type that doesn't counter armor. While not appropriate to the weapon, even Puncture damage partially ignores armor and gains a bonus against it, making Impact truly the worst-scaling physical damage type overall.

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It seems like you removed all kind of DR just to make Elude the only remaining way to avoid getting damaged. You modified it to be more potent for that close ranged playstyle as well. This is, you seem to have removed all forms of DR from Baruuk's kit. This means that due to Baruuk now only relying on Elude at close range to evade attacks and Baruuk's extremely low base EHP, stray bullets from afar will become rather deadly past the level 60 park. Of course the size of the aura would greatly affect Elude's effectiveness at keeping you alive, but the 90% DR provided by Desolate Hands was much more reliable at keeping you alive. Add to this that you didn't mention anything about Elude now being able to avoid any kind of AoE damage, and you would get a warframe that would crumble as soon as a Bombard would appear in a tight corridor.

To be clear, what I am proposing is untargetability on Baruuk, plus an aura that would negate any attacks that would enter it: what this means is that enemies shooting outside of the aura into it would still have their attacks negated once they'd be in contact with the aura, which would not only protect Baruuk, but allies as well. While untargetability is probably the wrong term here, the intent is to have Baruuk evade all negative effects directed at him with Elude on, including AoE, so he wouldn't be especially vulnerable to Bombards or the like even with no DR whatsoever.

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  • Nothing much to say about your Lull suggestion since you basically approved what I said in the OP. I'd just say however that applying instant sleep on the whole AoE would be overpowered. Consider this : 25m base range that sleeps instantly enemies for 20s base duration, for just 50 energy. It would have been fine on a 100 energy power, but here we're talking about a 50 energy power, so instant sleep on the whole circle would be really too much. Actually, I am not even satisfied with my suggestion after re-reading it. I should probably consider something else. Maybe even a rework of some sort.

If the issue is with spreading sleep across a large radius, the range could always be reduced, though I can agree that that'd be a downer given that it's meant to be the ability's standout feature over Equinox and Ivara's own sleep effects. Full disclosure: I dabble in a lot of rework concepts on the side, Baruuk being one of them, and the version of Lull I put down there was for him to spawn a sigil that would then sleep an area on contact with an enemy. This would synergize with a taunt, as Baruuk could lure an enemy into the sigil to sleep a whole group, while also working with the ability's area denial function. At that point, the AoE sleep could be made instant, because there would be both a delay and an additional degree of difficulty inherent in setting the trap and subsequently baiting enemies into it.

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  • I like what you did overall with Desolate Hands. Would make a good 1st ablity : I tend to appreciate simple projectiles you can spam around as a 1st ability. I think however the taunt aspect doesn't suit the pacifist theme of Baruuk, and so does the damage increase. I'd replace that with something else, even if it means dumping the "real tank" aspect of Baruuk.

That's fair enough: one adjustment could be to just make the damage increase apply for allies, but not Baruuk himself, which could also make the taunt function fit more in-theme (i.e. Baruuk redirecting violence away from his allies and onto himself, and further assisting teammates with a combat buff without himself benefiting from it). Alternatively, a slow could also do the job if the enemy's also disarmed, as it would prevent them almost completely from engaging Baruuk's allies if they're further away.

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  • Maybe Rhino could be a better candidate for that to be honest. Put the taunt effect in his Roar, with Iron Skin and the rest of hit kit you'd get a really solid tank archetype.

Oh, for sure I agree that Rhino could benefit from a taunt, given that Iron Skin is meant to scale with damage taken during a specific time period. More generally, though, I do think there are quite a few more tanky frames that could also make use of a taunt, such as Chroma for Vex Armor, Inaros so that he can use his big sack of health to help out his team (as well as throw sand in enemies' faces more easily), or even Valkyr, who despite her theme of fury from pain, derives no additional power from taking damage (and probably should).

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  • The Elude rework starts getting less appealing when you remember that Serene Storm has the tendency to ragdoll stuff away from you. Not necessarily problematic if you manage to quickly kill anything or at least keep it in ragdolled status until it dies, but it also means that you will push stuff away from your Elude's effective range. Thus, if you forget about the stuff you ragdolled away or end up with full restraint before finishing to kill anthing, you may end up with a bunch of enemies outside from your Serene Storm range ready to clap you. It probably won't be that much of an issue though, but I can see that happen.

I'm not sure how much the combos have changed in recent times, but if I remember well Serene Storm also has at least one combo that pulls enemies into Baruuk. In either case, though, as per the above clarification on how I intended my iteration of Elude to work, he should be okay even if he pushes enemies outside of his melee/Elude range.

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If anything, I am starting to realize I also need myself to put more thoughts in my suggestion. The fact that I totally forgot to adress the elephant in the room that is the Elude + Desolate Hands combo is relevant of that. Perhaps I should actually consider some actual power reworks. I'll probably add an Edit to the OP later.

I think you were right to go with more conservative changes to begin with at the very least, since as you also said it makes for more easily actionable and less controversial improvements, which may not otherwise see any consideration if mentioned alongside larger-scale ability reworks. In this respect, I'd say you could preserve the smaller-scope suggestions you made, while also separately proposing your more pie-in-the-sky kit changes in a separate adjacent section on the OP.

Edited by Teridax68
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My biggest issue with baruuk has also been his anti synergies and questionable ability stats/mechanics. 
 

As someone who loves D&D, especially playing a monk, my hope for elude was that it could be a unique tanking mechanic (like rev 2, rhino 2, Gauss 2) that works in a method other then pure DR tanking. Elude turning off while attacking just flat out ruins such a gameplay style that you MUST have DR or else you just die the moment you try and fight at high levels, and honestly the fantasy of being the untouchable monk falls away when you are very touchable (this sounds wrong) but just have a crap ton of DR anyway. 

Personally, Id love for baruuk to be focused on “tanking” with elude. Make it a duration ability, and allow it to stay active even while attacking. Keep the range as it is now so that it is possible to reach 100% radial evading with 200% power range. Make it so that playing baruuk allows you to feel immortal because all enemy attack simply phase through you. 
 

Keep his passive the same, but instead of free DR based on your passive, give him something else. Attack speed, bonus damage with fist weapons, something that fists the style of a punching monk. 
 

Lull needs to be faster. I agree with your suggestions so Ill just leave it there. 
 

Desolate hands is in a weird spot because of my suggestions to Elude. Baruuk will still need some form of DR or evasion for things elude cannot stop like explosions and AoE attacks. However, if the goal is to stop him from being an boring DR tank, then we cant just slap DR on him and call it a day. So I suggest we take a page from Revenant instead. 
Make the dagger charges float around baruuk and absorb instances of damage. If elude is active, bullets will not use these DH charges because they dont damage baruuk, but things like Gas clouds, explosions, etc will use the charges because he cant block them with elude. 
Then, as you [The Op] suggested, make it more controllable when you hand allies daggers. Being unable to control when you lose daggers out of combat is not enjoyable. 
 

Serene Storm needs a few things. Funny enough its damage is better now then before melee 2.999999999* because of the crit buffs, but it still needs something more to make it more viable then your basic ass melee. Buff the status a bit, allow it to build combo someway, either with waves giving a point or a percentage of a point of combo per enemy hit. Also, as a personal note, Id love if they swap the combos for moving foward and the combos for standing still. Maybe its just me but SS feels a lot less fluid with the current combo patterns and such. 
 

oh, and remove the free DR from SS (keep the 80% from blocking) and give it something else. 
 

I realize probably a lot of people will Hate my ideas but thats just what Id think could be For a frame touted as a monk. 

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i barely know a thing about his kit, because i’ve never seen him and arguably never will

 

baruuk suffers from being extremely hard to get, and i think he’s the most unattainable frame in the game right now. it’s not necessarily that he takes a lot of grind, although he does, but it’s extremely complicated to get him. he’s basically atlas’s farm all over again

grind standing>grind more standing>fight spider>get bp, sounds really similar to atlas’s grind which is grind archwing mods>rough it through quest>grind boss>get bp

he’s an underwhelming frame, not nearly as attractive as ivara, harrow, mesa, etc. he really should have his drops moved to the profit taker itself, because it is extraordinarily painful to get this guy. why else would nobody play him, when they hear of an excal sidegrade that takes around a month to get no matter what?

 

and anyways, considering that his exalted weapon doesnt cover a big area, he can be given as much damage as he wants and still remain balanced IMO. he’s not a bad design, just unattractive

Edited by Space0ddity
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5 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Thanks for the support.

There's a lot of stuff going against each other in Baruuk's kit that I actually didn't speak about in the OP. Actually I don't think those would be easy to solve with simple tweaks. I will need to throw some rework suggestions in there. One of those that comes to my mind is how much Elude doesn't synergize well with any kind of CC when used as a restraint generator. When Elude is up and you want to generate restraint, you don't want lull to be active nor you want to disarm enemies. The fact that Elude is technically your best way to lose retraint as well doesn't help.

Yeah that bit is kind of a bummer too.  But I personally never use elude to build up my meter unless I run into a few specific enemies early on in the mission.  My primary method of burning his meter has always been spamming lull.

5 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

About surviving not being engaging gameplay, I have to say that "surviving" became an absolutely mandatory requirement for anything "endgame" related (or at least it's how I feel about it). As of today, a reliable and powerful DR based power feels like an extreme necessity, and it's hard to justify the use of a warframe that doesn't have that IMO. 

Well, I should clarify.  His way of surviving isn't engaging.  I find say, mags way more engaging because I'm hopping from bubble to bubble when needing to sit in one area.  Or timing my pulls to remove immediate threats.  His way of surviving isn't really super active.  Which is why it's not enjoyable for me.  I hope that clears my point up.

5 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

I don't remember having mentionned lower duration on lull allowing you to cast it more often in the OP. It's a true fact though.

You didn't.  You did mention that lowering duration was a decent way to mod and I was acknowledging that and explained how.  Apologies for the confusion.

5 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

I wouldn't say spamming is encouraged for Baruuk, but low duration high range lull is definitely the second best way to erode restraint you can get. I also agree with the lack of interaction with Desolate Hands daggers being very disappointing. I want to rework it meaningfully so you actually have to actively throw daggers around at key targets, but fiding a way to keep those mandatory 90% DR without breaking something will be hard IMO.

In my suggestion I simply had it as a toggle ability.  As in you command when to throw the daggers out again via tapping to cast again.  This would not only make your DR consistent but it would let you shotgun disarm nearby threats which makes the disarm effect itself more valuable.

5 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

I do think Serene Storm could use some kind of Buff. The concept isn't bad, and it's still one of the best ragdoll generator in the game IMO which is something I absolutely love. But if you're going to gate a weapon like that, you need to make it worth it indeed.

I mean the obvious way is to just buff the damage via some method.  Personally i've just wanted more movement with it and some reason to actually use the cc methods it brings.  Like I absolutely adore the ability to vacuum enemies up and then knock them all away in one fluid motion.  But I don't really see the point to it.  Even though this was sort of designed to be more of a utility exalted it kinda just feels like the cc exists as a way to make up the issue it has against heavy armored enemies.  It feels I guess lacking like wukong's stick.  Then again no other exalted is really unique.  just strong damage.  Maybe I just don't like the current implementation of exalted weaponry.  Apologies for the ramble.

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Read all the new comments so far.

@Teridax68 I'll try to make a non-conservative rework alongside the conservative changes.

Something that worries me about your version of Elude is that it's starting to look like a god-mode, since its looks like nothing would effectively be able to hit Baruuk. I don't think DE would be keen to allow that. I mean, they harshly nerfed Trinity's blessing in the past due to a god-mode issue.

I like your idea of making Lull some kind of persistant sigil, though luring enemies into traps is probably not Baruuk's style. I like having deployables like that though. Making lull instant but as a simple sigil on the ground could be interesting gameplay wise, since it would be some kind of sleep that we never had in game.

@(PS4)CommanderC2121 I don't really think making Baruuk play as a DnD tank was DE's goal sadly. I think the goal was simply to make a reluctant warrior.

Earning some kind of damage bonus from how low your retraint is fits thematically, but now that I think about it, it would also create some anti-synergy by itself in some way since using Serene Storm makes you lose that bonus. It's a bit of a mess. As it is, it only gives you DR, but you don't especially want to hold it low it because if you fill it back up completely you can still get the 90% DR from Desolate Hands. Maybe the effects an eroded restraint should have both a negative and a positive, so there would be moments where you want to hang on the bonus awarded by low restraint, but there would also be moments where you need to release everything with Serene Storm.

I don't think copying Mesmer Skin would do that much good to Baruuk's kit as well, but I do agree that DR is getting overused. Though at the same time, there's very rarely a better way to keep your frame alive than having 90% DR, and it can be quite hard to think about something else without relying on very high base stats and insane health regen.

@Space0ddity Baruuk does require you to grind both Fortuna and Vox Solaris. I wouldn't really recommend making his loot obtainable from Profit Taker though, because from my own experience profit taker is a difficult fight solo. Not sure if I wasn't using the right kind of equipment, but I was struggling really hard against it. Either way, making it drop directly from Profit Taker won't negate the fact that you will need the blueprints for Marquise Thyst and other refined rare gems, that you can only obtain with a rank 4 at Solaris United (Cove). There would still be a lot of grind to do for a new player.

@(XB1)Knight Raime To be honest, non-engaging survival abilities are sadly what works the best. Most players, me included, will take a frame with a simple "I don't die" button because it's just incredibly convenient. I kinda wish it wasn't the case, but I'm afraid low effort survivability will always remain preferable as long as nothing is made to solve the whole scaling issue that has been plaguing WF since the last four years. It's part of why I main Nezha to begin with. Warding Halo is just insanely convenient. I just tap 3 and I can think about something else. It has no duration so I don't have the pain of making sure to sustain it every 30 seconds as well. I just have to recast it when it breaks. It even allows me to ignore some mods I couldn't afford to ignore on another warframe. It's insanely good. Way too good. Yet way too needed. :/

More active survival ways mostly work if the warframe has beefy stats to begin with, or some loop you can exploit. Wukong and Garuda are good examples of that. Garuda will mostly try to stay alive thanks to her already high armor and her high benefit from using Quick Thinking, as well as her insane self sustain. Wukong has an easy health regen ability as well as a way to generate armor on top of good stats.

Now that I think about it, Baruuk's 300 base energy at rank 30 could make him a prime contender for Flux + QT, thus making him far more tanky and thus making him slightly less reliant on DR, but it's hard to sustain QT when your frame don't have an effective way to generate energy for itself. Maybe Serene Storm should generate energy ? I mean, it could create some interesting dynamic : Your first three ability fuels Serene Storm, and Serene Storm fuels your 3 other abilities as well.

 

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you’ve got a point that making him drop from profit taker still won’t make him easier to get, but the point of my suggestion was that he is less complicated to get. an average player would be much happier making the conclusion that once theyve finished solaris united grind, they can at least get baruuk quickly without wasting their own time. i didn’t make my suggestion with only new players in mind, just average players between mr 6 and 11, who would be the only ones in the first place capable of grinding out a syndicate

as it is right now, baruuk is a sort of drop from profit taker due to you needing to fight pt to get his blueprints. its complicated, and messy.

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6 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

 

@(XB1)Knight Raime To be honest, non-engaging survival abilities are sadly what works the best. Most players, me included, will take a frame with a simple "I don't die" button because it's just incredibly convenient. I kinda wish it wasn't the case, but I'm afraid low effort survivability will always remain preferable as long as nothing is made to solve the whole scaling issue that has been plaguing WF since the last four years. It's part of why I main Nezha to begin with. Warding Halo is just insanely convenient. I just tap 3 and I can think about something else. It has no duration so I don't have the pain of making sure to sustain it every 30 seconds as well. I just have to recast it when it breaks. It even allows me to ignore some mods I couldn't afford to ignore on another warframe. It's insanely good. Way too good. Yet way too needed. 😕

I've got no problem with having boring but strong ways to survive.  I just prefer a more active approach.  I think that's part of why I enjoy Gauss and Grendel as much as I do.  Both are pretty survivable.  Maybe not as insane as someone like trinity but they can deffinitely hold their own.  Gauss has his insane movement with his CC.  Grendel literally eats things for cc, damage, and survival.  If Baruuk's way to survive involved interacting with enemies more I wouldn't mind.  But as i've...eluded to before (I swear i'm not purposely making puns,) It just feels like I do a lot of cast and wait just so I can get to the big show that's his 4.

6 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

More active survival ways mostly work if the warframe has beefy stats to begin with, or some loop you can exploit. Wukong and Garuda are good examples of that. Garuda will mostly try to stay alive thanks to her already high armor and her high benefit from using Quick Thinking, as well as her insane self sustain. Wukong has an easy health regen ability as well as a way to generate armor on top of good stats.

This is true.  Can't recall if you were the mod I quoted last time but I would love it if simply having good movement meant a lot for survival.  This would still benefit tanky frames though.  I don't have the creativity to come up with a way that would make casters more survivable without also benefitting the ones who already can do so via soaking damage.

6 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

Now that I think about it, Baruuk's 300 base energy at rank 30 could make him a prime contender for Flux + QT, thus making him far more tanky and thus making him slightly less reliant on DR, but it's hard to sustain QT when your frame don't have an effective way to generate energy for itself. Maybe Serene Storm should generate energy ? I mean, it could create some interesting dynamic : Your first three ability fuels Serene Storm, and Serene Storm fuels your 3 other abilities as well.

 

So kind of like how Valkyr gains life back with her 4 but instead energy for Baruuk?  Could be interesting.  Could also potentially just tack on the ability to gain some energy via killing enemies effected by his 2 and 3 as well.  They could take it a step further even like they've done with Grendel and Ember where you start burning energy past a certain point.  In Baruuk's case they could let you activate/use serene storm by expending energy if your meter isn't burned all the way out.  And potentially give some kind of activation bonus for having the patience to burn your meter away before using your 4.

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On 2020-01-01 at 10:55 PM, LascarCapable said:

Something that worries me about your version of Elude is that it's starting to look like a god-mode, since its looks like nothing would effectively be able to hit Baruuk. I don't think DE would be keen to allow that. I mean, they harshly nerfed Trinity's blessing in the past due to a god-mode issue.

That's a fair criticism, as it would be pretty much invincibility while not attacking, but at the same time I do think it's still closer to Elude as we have it now than pre-nerf Blessing: the latter used to allow global, permanent invincibility, or near-invincibility, whereas this would come in a much more localized area, which could be balanced to only work when Baruuk steps in to protect someone. With that said, though, if we're changing Elude to provide DR when attacking, then the aura could be removed entirely, as Baruuk would have a stat for the ability to scale off of (Strength, in this case).

Elaborating a bit further, that rework concept on the side I had for Baruuk hinged on this idea of passively "spiriting away" enemies, i.e. vanishing them, by essentially staying in combat with them, but not damaging or getting hit by them for some period of time in order to "kill" them in the way of a true pacifist: the counterbalance to this is that Baruuk would have to do this with no protections, because Elude would indeed offer a god mode through total untargetability, at the cost of putting the passive on hold. Thus, Elude would've been more of a dodge/rest/pause button than the above more total protection, as it would've had a tradeoff. For the current state of the game though, it might instead be better to give Baruuk a ramping damage bonus on his next attacks in order to incentivize him to partake in combat, as much as that technically contradicts his theme.

Quote

I like your idea of making Lull some kind of persistant sigil, though luring enemies into traps is probably not Baruuk's style. I like having deployables like that though. Making lull instant but as a simple sigil on the ground could be interesting gameplay wise, since it would be some kind of sleep that we never had in game.

This is also fair, and much appreciated. The one thing I'd add to this is that a lot of frames tend to run into the issue of being this radial power broadcasting device, in that at least some part of their kit revolves around pressing a button to output some radial amount of power, without much more gameplay coming out of that: while there is gameplay inherent to sleep, Baruuk still kind of has that issue in that "press this button to hard CC everyone in the room" is itself not a gameplay-rich effect, and as you pointed out would likely be abusive if it weren't so slow. Because of this, I'd also say there's often not that much subtlety to how different frames play from each other: Baruuk does have this thing going on where he's currently encouraged to hover some distance away from enemies, but outside of that doesn't really have his own tanking or combat style fleshed out as much as it could be. By contrast, if his kit were more focused so to give him a dodge button, a skillshot disarm (with or without a taunt), and a AoE CC trap that required luring enemies in, that could already play much more into a frame that would use every tool but violence, i.e. movement, manipulation of enemy aggro, crowd control, defenses, etc. to fight at close to mid ranges.

Edited by Teridax68
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Alright. So today is a big day because I finished polishing my Baruuk rework suggestion. I took most of you guys feedback into account to make this, and tried to make something that could, hopefully, please as much of you guys without screwing up any habit too much, wether or not you are more focusing on a close range playstyle like Teridax, a monk playstyle like Commander or a more mid ranged playstyle like me.

The rework suggestion :

  • Stats :
    • Health : 75-225 -> 100-300
    • Armor : 150 -> 225
      • In this rework, I wanted to butcher the DR Desolate Hands, so I had to put survivability somewhere else. Increasing Baruuk's EHP is an obvious first step.
  • Passive :
    • Stays the same.
      • I didn't want to take too much risks here.
  • Desolate Hands :
    • Reworked !
    • Now becomes your first ability. It costs 25 energy
    • Throw a dagger that knocks down and disarm enemies in a small AoE.
    • Also disable eximus and ancient aura effects.
    • Erode 5% of restraint for each enemy hit by the AoE. Capped at 20%.
    • Disarm is permament.
  • Elude :
    • Moved to ability 2.
    • Attacking reduce Elude angle by 80% instead of disabling it momentarily.
    • Removed synergy with desolate hands.
    • Each kills while elude is active erodes 2% of your restraint, but also increase Elude's energy cost over time by 10%.
      • You can still quickly disable and reactivate it to reset the cost of course.
  • Lull :
    • Moved to ability 3.
    • Slightly reworked. Still gets a similar gameplay.
    • Instead of generating a sigil for 5s that puts enemies to sleep for 20s, generates a sigil for 25s.
    • Enemies are slowed down depending of how close they are from the center.
      • The closer they get from the center, the more they will slow down.
    • Enemies too close from the center will be put to sleep.
    • Grants to you and allies 75% of DR if you stay inside of it.
    • Can be increased up to 90% DR with enough power strength.
    • The Sigil remains on the floor as long as you remain inside of it.
      • If you leave the sigil, it will linger for a few seconds and disappear if you don't come back on it after that delay.
      • If you leave the sigil, the DR bonus will also linger on you as long as the the sigil does not disappear.
    • Can be recasted while active.
      • The newer instance will replace the older one.
    • Disarmed enemies will be instantly put to sleep by Lull, no matter how close from the center those enemies are located.
    • Enemies waking up cannot be put to sleep again by the same instance of Lull.
    • Erodes 1.5% restraint for each enemy affected.
    • Cost increased to 75 energy to compensate for the DR buff.
    • Radius reduced from 25m to 15m (at max rank) to compensate for the DR buff.
    • Sentinels does not wake up sleeping enemies.
    • Daggers from Desolate Hands does not wake up already sleeping enemies.
    • Credits to @Teridax68 for the initial Lull sigil idea.
  • Serene Storm :
    • Damage increased from 250 impact to 350 impact.
    • Damage reduction from Serene Storm increased from 25% to 50%. Can be bumped up to 90% with power strength. Stacks multiplicatively 
      with your passive.
    • Each 1% percent of restraint restored by Serene Storm restores your energy by 0.5%.
    • Cannot generate restraint while active.
      • This is compensated by the fact that you should now be able to erode your restraint faster as well as the fact that you earn energy from Serene Storm.
    • Provides changes to your 3 other abilities while active to reflect your much more agressive state, trading defense for sheer offense.
      • Desolate hands now strips armor and shields instead of disarming.
        • Stiil knocks down enemies.
        • Stripping power affected by power strength.
      • Elude's evade angle is permanently reduced by 80%, but your movement speed is vastly increased while active.
      • Lull now provides damage increase to yourself instead of damage reduction.
        • Cannot sleep enemies anymore
        • Still slows enemies, but the slow effect cannot exceed minimal value.
        • Also increase range of the Sigil by 40% while active.
    • Holding Serene Storm triggers an explosion centered on yourself, restoring all your lost restraint while ragdolling and damaging nearby enemies.
      • Restraint restoration still replenish 0.5% of energy per 1% of restraint restored.

My main goal was to make every abilities synergizing or completing each other in their own way. Your main method of earning DR requires a rather static gameplay, so Elude should find a much more important role at damage mitigation if you need to be on the move. The rework of Desolate Hands gives you a new tool allowing you to tactically and actively disarm enemies that works decently in all situations. I also wanted to make eroding your restraint overall faster yet more active, while making sure that none of your three ways to lose restraint would impair each other. No matter what you do, using your three abilities together should allow you to maximize your restraint erosion.

I also wanted to make Baruuk much more violent once you erode your restraint and use serene storm, to the point where you playstyle changes subtlely. Fuelled by wrath, all your abilities lose most of their defensive properties to become way more offensive. Desolate Hands turns into a debuff, Lull makes you and your team hit harder, Elude allows you to get up close and personal with your fists ready to teach the first enemy coming by how to fly. Meanwhile, shreer wrath still ensures you won't go down too easily thanks to the improved, built in DR of Serene Storm. Amazing ? Amazing. Did I mention that Serene Storm allows you to get your energy back too ? Perfect to fuel your other abilities again and prepare a new one.

Now this version is probably far from perfect. My suggested values probably needs tweaks, and there might be some problems I didn't think of. Don't hesitate to give me your opinions about all of that stuff.

I keep reading your comments. The discussion is super interesting. Tried to keep the last three comments in mind before posting that rework idea here as well.

Also, I'm adding that rework to the OP.

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Making a short reply as I'm about to head out the door.  When I return from my errands i'll edit this reply with more specific responses.  Overall I will say I enjoy what you've set on the table.  Even squealed a little on the inside when reading the part where you can group disarm.  (disarm is one of my favorite effects okay.)  I'm not a numbers guy so I can't tell you if the numbers chosen are too good or not enough.  But just reading this version of Baruuk would certainly make playing him more exciting and engaging for me.  Which is all I can really ask for out of any Baruuk rework.

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On 2020-01-01 at 4:55 PM, LascarCapable said:

 

@(PS4)CommanderC2121 I don't really think making Baruuk play as a DnD tank was DE's goal sadly. I think the goal was simply to make a reluctant warrior.

 

while that is true, it would be also incorrect to say he doesnt share a bunch of similarities to a DnD monk, namely attacking without weapons, having stats designed to avoid damage, and the ability to disarm(sunder) enemies and knock them unconscious/put to sleep. 

Quote

 

Earning some kind of damage bonus from how low your retraint is fits thematically, but now that I think about it, it would also create some anti-synergy by itself in some way since using Serene Storm makes you lose that bonus. It's a bit of a mess.
 

 

i didnt mean a bonus that scaled with restraint, but a flat bonus like mesa or excal have, but with fists. Something like “Baruuk gains a bonus 10% attackspeed and 10% damage while using fist or sparring weapons.” 

Hell, I just thought about a nice one. “Baruuk gains bonus range while using fist or sparring weapons.” That’d be nice

Quote

 

As it is, it only gives you DR, but you don't especially want to hold it low it because if you fill it back up completely you can still get the 90% DR from Desolate Hands. Maybe the effects an eroded restraint should have both a negative and a positive, so there would be moments where you want to hang on the bonus awarded by low restraint, but there would also be moments where you need to release everything with Serene Storm.
 

 

ive been pondering a idea for baruuk based on his restraint having 4 levels, like liches, being calm, irritated, annoyed, and enraged, each having benefits to how baruuk plays. I may make a thread on it later in fact. 

Quote

I don't think copying Mesmer Skin would do that much good to Baruuk's kit as well, but I do agree that DR is getting overused. Though at the same time, there's very rarely a better way to keep your frame alive than having 90% DR, and it can be quite hard to think about something else without relying on very high base stats and insane health regen.

 

True. I know I personally prefer methods of tanking besides “hur dur i got all the hp and armor” as those other tanking methods are usually more active and enjoyable, but thats just me. Id prefer a way to just allow baruuk to survive high level content solely with elude because the concept of a frame surviving not because he can take the hits but because he can dodge them appealing, but thats just me. 
 

as an aside, reading your baruuk changes comment im split. Some changes I like, especially the Serene storm changes, but overall im not in favor of them. Reducing elude range by 80% when attacking is rather harsh, and means you might as well just not bother with elude anyway, because 80% of 90 degrees leaves only about 18 degrees, and even with 200% range, youd only have 40 degrees of range, which is less then most melee weapons have for blocking angles. If you meant 80 degrees (instead of 80%) then you are forced to build range because elude only has a base radius of 90 degrees, and at base would therefore be only 10 degrees when attacking. 
while it is also true restraint is lost faster with the method you suggested, it also means you are eventually forced out of your 4, something no other frame has issues with since all other exalted can theoretically last forever with energy orbs/range. 
lull i like a bit, as it provides some nice team support and dr, but it also seems to be stepping into equinox territory wouldn't you say? Seems like a stationary “Pacify” 

 

edit: my math is off. I dont know why but for some reason remembered elude having a base radius iof 90, when it is infact 180. In either case, my point partially stands. If you reduce the radius by 80%, you go from 180 degrees to 36, and 360 to 80 degrees. However, if you meant 80 degrees instead of 80%, going from 180 to 100 and 360 to 280 would be much more manageable. 

Edited by (PS4)CommanderC2121
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sounds like complicated synergy spam to me, i dont like heavily overtuned abilities and this stinks of that

heres my suggestion

health/armor unchanged

elude angles improved so that he naturally gets 60% coverage instead of whatever he has now

desolate hands now sleeps enemies in a large aoe along with disarming them

lull now disarms along with proccing sleep, similar to loki’s disarm

serene storm gets 350 damage from 250, but becomes nonfatal, instead rocketing an enemy into space, a wall, or out of bounds whenever they are hit, and relinquishing loot and exp right away.

has a ‘fear’ effect which makes enemies run for the nearest unloaded tile and despawn

 

i dont like ability changes that cant be summed up in a few sentences. they are complicated and boring most of the time and change nothing about a frame’s playstyle or identity. the best reworks involved something crazy like, “limbo can stop time now”

 

if baruuk is truly a pacifist too, he shouldnt be outcompeted in disarming prowess by loki, since at least loki has invis, but baruuk just has some DR

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11 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

as an aside, reading your baruuk changes comment im split. Some changes I like, especially the Serene storm changes, but overall im not in favor of them. Reducing elude range by 80% when attacking is rather harsh, and means you might as well just not bother with elude anyway, because 80% of 90 degrees leaves only about 18 degrees, and even with 200% range, youd only have 40 degrees of range, which is less then most melee weapons have for blocking angles. If you meant 80 degrees (instead of 80%) then you are forced to build range because elude only has a base radius of 90 degrees, and at base would therefore be only 10 degrees when attacking. 
while it is also true restraint is lost faster with the method you suggested, it also means you are eventually forced out of your 4, something no other frame has issues with since all other exalted can theoretically last forever with energy orbs/range. 
lull i like a bit, as it provides some nice team support and dr, but it also seems to be stepping into equinox territory wouldn't you say? Seems like a stationary “Pacify” 

 

edit: my math is off. I dont know why but for some reason remembered elude having a base radius iof 90, when it is infact 180. In either case, my point partially stands. If you reduce the radius by 80%, you go from 180 degrees to 36, and 360 to 80 degrees. However, if you meant 80 degrees instead of 80%, going from 180 to 100 and 360 to 280 would be much more manageable. 

It is a percentage. Percentage value can still be tweaked of course. Either way, reduced evade radius while attacking is still better than, well, no evade at all.

Reducing by 80 degrees straight wouldn't be a good drawback at all since you would still be able to evade everything appearing on your screen (and a bit more behind) with 200% power range. Attacking must make you more vulnerable, but not utterly vunerable. I can lower the percentage of radius lost from 80% to 70% though. It would probably be fair. 36° does feel quite low with no power range.

I'm probably encouraging more to build for range like this : it's intended, though I don't think it would be absolutely mandatory to build like that for a 360° Elude if you can manage your positioning. If anything, it reinforces an interesting dynamic : do you want a safer 200% range build that allows you to dodge more stuff with Elude and cover more ground with Lull at cost of hitting less hard with Serene Storm (overextended), or do you want to play more risky and favor power strength more by not having a 200% power range build ?

Being forced out of your 4 if you reach full restraint is normal. It's planned. I want the player to pay attention to their restraint a bit and spare it when needed. It's up to the player to use Serene Storm at the right moment and keep in mind how long they can go before having to reload it (which shouldn't take that long in the right situation). Considering that Serene Storm can be used for no energy cost, I think it's perfectly fine to not be able to sustain it forever and have to make small breaks between two uses.

Equiniox's Pacify does not provide DR and sleep, but lowers enemy damage instead. It also seem to create an aura around you instead of generating a static sigil on the ground. Did you mean Rest/Rage perhaps ? Rest is a ranged ability if I follow the wiki : you generate a 5m AoE to up to 50m. Hence, I don't think Lull steps on Equinox's territory at all.

7 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

sounds like complicated synergy spam to me, i dont like heavily overtuned abilities and this stinks of that

heres my suggestion

health/armor unchanged

elude angles improved so that he naturally gets 60% coverage instead of whatever he has now

desolate hands now sleeps enemies in a large aoe along with disarming them

lull now disarms along with proccing sleep, similar to loki’s disarm

serene storm gets 350 damage from 250, but becomes nonfatal, instead rocketing an enemy into space, a wall, or out of bounds whenever they are hit, and relinquishing loot and exp right away.

has a ‘fear’ effect which makes enemies run for the nearest unloaded tile and despawn

 

i dont like ability changes that cant be summed up in a few sentences. they are complicated and boring most of the time and change nothing about a frame’s playstyle or identity. the best reworks involved something crazy like, “limbo can stop time now”

 

if baruuk is truly a pacifist too, he shouldnt be outcompeted in disarming prowess by loki, since at least loki has invis, but baruuk just has some DR

Sorry you don't like the suggested redesign. I don't think it would be that complicated in game though. It's just that I went a bit deep into details. Perhaps you would prefer a more summarized and straightforward formulation ?

Desolate Hands : throw a dagger that knocks down and disarm enemies and their auras (eximus/ancients) in a small AoE. Erodes restraint per enemy hit, up to a cap.

Evade : enemy attacks that aren't AoEs phase through Baruuk in a wide angle. Attacking will however reduce that angle. Erode restraint for each enemy killed while the ability is active.

Lull : generates a persistent sigil on the floor that slows down enemies depending of how close from the center they are. Being too close from the center puts enemies to sleep. Grants damage reduction as long as you remain on the sigil. Erodes restraint everytime an enemy is affected.

Serene Storm : now gets increased damage and provides more damage reduction while active. Also restores energy while you restore your restraint. Makes your other abilities trade defense for sheer offense.

  • Desolate Hands now strips armor and shields but cannot disarm.
  • Elude had reduced angle but boosts your movement speed drastically.
  • Lull has lowered slow effect and no sleep but improves your damage.

This describes what each abiities would do without entering into details. I hope this was convincing : it's not as complicated as it looks, though I'm definitely adding some depth and complexity to Baruuk here, which is something that I think is welcome.

As for the disarming prowess and Loki supposedly outshining Baruuk (probably not what you meant to say though), I think several things have to be kept in mind : 

  • The ability cost is not the same : Loki might have a massive disarm, the cost of his ability is 4 times superior to what Baruuk's reworked desolate hands would be.
  • Invisibility does not mean invincibility, especially when you're playing with other players. Stray bullets and collateral damage are extremely dangerous for Loki. Being at the wrong place at the wrong time is fatal. This makes Invisibility not as reliable for your survival compared to having a massive amount of DR. Add to this the fact that Loki has to constantly recast his invisibility, while Baruuk will probably have to spend much less energy to avoid damage, both in the reworked and in the current version.
    •  I'd take DR over invisibility in high level missions anytime by the way. DR is way too reliable and convenient for me to pass. Even if it means "no stealth damage".
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51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

It is a percentage. Percentage value can still be tweaked of course. Either way, reduced evade radius while attacking is still better than, well, no evade at all.

Reducing by 80 degrees straight wouldn't be a good drawback at all since you would still be able to evade everything appearing on your screen (and a bit more behind) with 200% power range. Attacking must make you more vulnerable, but not utterly vunerable. I can lower the percentage of radius lost from 80% to 70% though. It would probably be fair. 36° does feel quite low with no power range.

Honestly I still fail to see why baruuk cannot just have a 360 elude the whole time. Its not the best survivability tool because AoE outright ignores elude, and it also negates the use of Rage, two downsides already. Why make it worse by attacking when no other defensive ability has such a restriction? Imagine if Chroma or rhino had their respective defensive abilities turned off or lessened when attacking. 

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

I'm probably encouraging more to build for range like this : it's intended, though I don't think it would be absolutely mandatory to build like that for a 360° Elude if you can manage your positioning. If anything, it reinforces an interesting dynamic : do you want a safer 200% range build that allows you to dodge more stuff with Elude and cover more ground with Lull at cost of hitting less hard with Serene Storm (overextended), or do you want to play more risky and favor power strength more by not having a 200% power range build ?
 

thats fair

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Being forced out of your 4 if you reach full restraint is normal. It's planned. I want the player to pay attention to their restraint a bit and spare it when needed. It's up to the player to use Serene Storm at the right moment and keep in mind how long they can go before having to reload it (which shouldn't take that long in the right situation). Considering that Serene Storm can be used for no energy cost, I think it's perfectly fine to not be able to sustain it forever and have to make small breaks between two uses.

i guess

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Equiniox's Pacify does not provide DR and sleep, but lowers enemy damage instead. It also seem to create an aura around you instead of generating a static sigil on the ground. Did you mean Rest/Rage perhaps ? Rest is a ranged ability if I follow the wiki : you generate a 5m AoE to up to 50m. Hence, I don't think Lull steps on Equinox's territory at all.
 

ok, my bad. I was thinking about the augment for equinox pacify, which does slow them as they get closer to equinox, but thats not a fair comparison since it does use a augment and doesn't end with the enemies falling asleep. 

 

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Desolate Hands : throw a dagger that knocks down and disarm enemies and their auras (eximus/ancients) in a small AoE. Erodes restraint per enemy hit, up to a cap.

I dont have an issue with this. Like it infact. 

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Evade : enemy attacks that aren't AoEs phase through Baruuk in a wide angle. Attacking will however reduce that angle. Erode restraint for each enemy killed while the ability is active.
 

again, I just dont see the reason he has to lose elude angle when attacking. Thats my sticking point in afraid xD 

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Lull : generates a persistent sigil on the floor that slows down enemies depending of how close from the center they are. Being too close from the center puts enemies to sleep. Grants damage reduction as long as you remain on the sigil. Erodes restraint everytime an enemy is affected.
 

Tbh I like this ability but i fear it wouldn't always work in a game like warframe except on already static missions like defense. Then again, it may have no issues no matter the mission type so its also probably fine. 

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Serene Storm : now gets increased damage and provides more damage reduction while active. Also restores energy while you restore your restraint. Makes your other abilities trade defense for sheer offense.

  • Desolate Hands now strips armor and shields but cannot disarm.
  • Elude had reduced angle but boosts your movement speed drastically.
  • Lull has lowered slow effect and no sleep but improves your damage.
     

 

I like the changed here that let SS generate energy and such, and I didn't catch that the other abilities change while using SS, thats a nice touch. In my opinion however, when every other exalted can stay theoretically active forever as long as they have the energy too, why does baruuk have to be the only one that both needs to work to unlock his 4 and be the only one who has a hard timer on his 4 that cannot be modified mid use? 

51 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

This describes what each abiities would do without entering into details. I hope this was convincing : it's not as complicated as it looks, though I'm definitely adding some depth and complexity to Baruuk here, which is something that I think is welcome.
 

Im fine with the complexity, as he is kinda 1 note atm it feels. As I said earlier, I do like most of the changes, just not almost them, mainly to elude. 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Honestly I still fail to see why baruuk cannot just have a 360 elude the whole time. Its not the best survivability tool because AoE outright ignores elude, and it also negates the use of Rage, two downsides already. Why make it worse by attacking when no other defensive ability has such a restriction? Imagine if Chroma or rhino had their respective defensive abilities turned off or lessened when attacking. 

thats fair

i guess

ok, my bad. I was thinking about the augment for equinox pacify, which does slow them as they get closer to equinox, but thats not a fair comparison since it does use a augment and doesn't end with the enemies falling asleep. 

 

I dont have an issue with this. Like it infact. 

again, I just dont see the reason he has to lose elude angle when attacking. Thats my sticking point in afraid xD 

Tbh I like this ability but i fear it wouldn't always work in a game like warframe except on already static missions like defense. Then again, it may have no issues no matter the mission type so its also probably fine. 

I like the changed here that let SS generate energy and such, and I didn't catch that the other abilities change while using SS, thats a nice touch. In my opinion however, when every other exalted can stay theoretically active forever as long as they have the energy too, why does baruuk have to be the only one that both needs to work to unlock his 4 and be the only one who has a hard timer on his 4 that cannot be modified mid use? 

Im fine with the complexity, as he is kinda 1 note atm it feels. As I said earlier, I do like most of the changes, just not almost them, mainly to elude. 

Gonna answer to a few of those points.

First of all, second part of the post was for Space0ddity. Sorry for the confusion, I should have used a @ ping maybe. But if you were already aware of that and wished to reply anyway, ignore that. :p

About Elude, its angle and its AoE weakness AoE damage is relatively rare in WF compared to what you can usually see in most missions (unless you get spammed with Sapping Ospreys, but that's not something that seems to happen a lot anymore as far as I could see). It still allows you to ignore most ranged attacks and melee attacks. Considering the cheap cost of Elude and it's really low energy drain, I think not being 360° innately is perfectly fair. Also, it gives a better point about using Desolate Hands (Lull in the reworked version) so you can at least mitigate that damage when it happens. It's also interesting to note that some explosive projectiles still phase through you by themselves, thus making Elude slightly more interesting against AoE units like Bombards, provided you position yourself correctly. It does negate the use of Rage as well, but Baruuk doesn't lose much from low power duration, so you can still build him for power efficiency and use Zenurik for sustaining yourself with energy. It's what I do personally.

About Lull being static, it would indeed mean that it would lose some utility in missions where you have to keep moving. But in most infinite game modes, with the tendency players have to camp at one area, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I wish I could imagine a less static way to provide DR, but so far it's most logical thing I could think of that would respect the principle of Baruuk and shared DR without changing too much the playstyle. :/

About Serene Storm, I gate it like that by design. I don't want players to be able to run it forever, because if you could, I'd have no reason to turn it off (kill is the best CC after all). Consider this : it's an ability you use for free, because it uses your restraint and not your energy. This means that it's unaffected by any energy drain effects. In the rework, it also it replenishes your energy as well, it's more powerful than other exalted weapons (well until they also get buffed if that ever happen ofc) and the ability changes you get from it allow you to deal insane damage. If you deal insane damage, you don't need CC, plus it's a safe bet that your shockwaves will kill anything insanely quick, and with the energy resupply you're not gonna fall out of energy to throw armor-piercing daggers or damage amplifier sigils. This is why I want it gated like that.

 

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6 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

It is a percentage. Percentage value can still be tweaked of course. Either way, reduced evade radius while attacking is still better than, well, no evade at all.

Reducing by 80 degrees straight wouldn't be a good drawback at all since you would still be able to evade everything appearing on your screen (and a bit more behind) with 200% power range. Attacking must make you more vulnerable, but not utterly vunerable. I can lower the percentage of radius lost from 80% to 70% though. It would probably be fair. 36° does feel quite low with no power range.

I'm probably encouraging more to build for range like this : it's intended, though I don't think it would be absolutely mandatory to build like that for a 360° Elude if you can manage your positioning. If anything, it reinforces an interesting dynamic : do you want a safer 200% range build that allows you to dodge more stuff with Elude and cover more ground with Lull at cost of hitting less hard with Serene Storm (overextended), or do you want to play more risky and favor power strength more by not having a 200% power range build ?

Being forced out of your 4 if you reach full restraint is normal. It's planned. I want the player to pay attention to their restraint a bit and spare it when needed. It's up to the player to use Serene Storm at the right moment and keep in mind how long they can go before having to reload it (which shouldn't take that long in the right situation). Considering that Serene Storm can be used for no energy cost, I think it's perfectly fine to not be able to sustain it forever and have to make small breaks between two uses.

Equiniox's Pacify does not provide DR and sleep, but lowers enemy damage instead. It also seem to create an aura around you instead of generating a static sigil on the ground. Did you mean Rest/Rage perhaps ? Rest is a ranged ability if I follow the wiki : you generate a 5m AoE to up to 50m. Hence, I don't think Lull steps on Equinox's territory at all.

Sorry you don't like the suggested redesign. I don't think it would be that complicated in game though. It's just that I went a bit deep into details. Perhaps you would prefer a more summarized and straightforward formulation ?

Desolate Hands : throw a dagger that knocks down and disarm enemies and their auras (eximus/ancients) in a small AoE. Erodes restraint per enemy hit, up to a cap.

Evade : enemy attacks that aren't AoEs phase through Baruuk in a wide angle. Attacking will however reduce that angle. Erode restraint for each enemy killed while the ability is active.

Lull : generates a persistent sigil on the floor that slows down enemies depending of how close from the center they are. Being too close from the center puts enemies to sleep. Grants damage reduction as long as you remain on the sigil. Erodes restraint everytime an enemy is affected.

Serene Storm : now gets increased damage and provides more damage reduction while active. Also restores energy while you restore your restraint. Makes your other abilities trade defense for sheer offense.

  • Desolate Hands now strips armor and shields but cannot disarm.
  • Elude had reduced angle but boosts your movement speed drastically.
  • Lull has lowered slow effect and no sleep but improves your damage.

This describes what each abiities would do without entering into details. I hope this was convincing : it's not as complicated as it looks, though I'm definitely adding some depth and complexity to Baruuk here, which is something that I think is welcome.

As for the disarming prowess and Loki supposedly outshining Baruuk (probably not what you meant to say though), I think several things have to be kept in mind : 

  • The ability cost is not the same : Loki might have a massive disarm, the cost of his ability is 4 times superior to what Baruuk's reworked desolate hands would be.
  • Invisibility does not mean invincibility, especially when you're playing with other players. Stray bullets and collateral damage are extremely dangerous for Loki. Being at the wrong place at the wrong time is fatal. This makes Invisibility not as reliable for your survival compared to having a massive amount of DR. Add to this the fact that Loki has to constantly recast his invisibility, while Baruuk will probably have to spend much less energy to avoid damage, both in the reworked and in the current version.
    •  I'd take DR over invisibility in high level missions anytime by the way. DR is way too reliable and convenient for me to pass. Even if it means "no stealth damage".

i like the simplified description a lot more, feels much less difficult to follow and easier to see his true potential, but simplifying like this clearly exposes a few glaring flaws in his rework kit that are harder to see when gouged out with stats and text:

1. desolate hands in this state is just as bad a disarming tool as it always was, and now his DR and survivability have gone down quite a lot. for a pacifist frame, he arguably should be smothering the battlefield in disarms and sleeps, yet this makes it harder. it’s also less flashy than say, summoning 30 daggers with a powerstrength build, and can’t be cast on allies anymore, which is a shame.

2. making lul only sleep enemies in the center makes it kind of like an ivara sleep but you cant shoot it at anything besides yourself, why would i use it now? the slow is less than useless for me, this isn’t dota where slowing down my lane opponent is the difference between life or death, this is a game where slows don’t do much to make enemies less threatening.

the elude buff is aight, and the buff to his melee would be appreciated, but now he’s lost a ton of survivability and is arguably even more useless. you say loki’s abilities cost more, but if i were to project the costs of these theoretical abilities they have a value barely breaking 25 each, unless their range is much more ridiculous than i imagine, which creates another saryn/equinox. loki’s disarm is absolutely worth every 100 energy, and is weak simply because it’s hard to build properly (irradiating disarm is really, really good, don’t forget it.)

invisibility IS invincibility to a solo frame, this is why loki is preferred for that role. baruuk, with his massive cc, and damage ult that is regulated by a restraint bar is directly competing with other solo frames. if he really wants to be one, it should be harder to lose dr from his desolate hands, not having all of his survivability stripped out and moved to elude, a very unreliable looking toggle ability.

all in all this creates a frame that has to spend 200 energy to cast a watered down disarm, an invincibility button that stops working when he fires his gun, and an exalted blade that works *sometimes*

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1 hour ago, LascarCapable said:

Gonna answer to a few of those points.

First of all, second part of the post was for Space0ddity. Sorry for the confusion, I should have used a @ ping maybe. But if you were already aware of that and wished to reply anyway, ignore that. 😛
 

 

all good, sorry if I was a pain about that bit

1 hour ago, LascarCapable said:

About Elude, its angle and its AoE weakness AoE damage is relatively rare in WF compared to what you can usually see in most missions (unless you get spammed with Sapping Ospreys, but that's not something that seems to happen a lot anymore as far as I could see). It still allows you to ignore most ranged attacks and melee attacks. Considering the cheap cost of Elude and it's really low energy drain, I think not being 360° innately is perfectly fair. Also, it gives a better point about using Desolate Hands (Lull in the reworked version) so you can at least mitigate that damage when it happens. It's also interesting to note that some explosive projectiles still phase through you by themselves, thus making Elude slightly more interesting against AoE units like Bombards, provided you position yourself correctly. It does negate the use of Rage as well, but Baruuk doesn't lose much from low power duration, so you can still build him for power efficiency and use Zenurik for sustaining yourself with energy. It's what I do personally.

 

I think you’re misunderstanding my issue with elude, and thats probably on me due to poor wording. 
I dont mean for elude to have a base radius of 360 degrees. Honestly i agree that would be too much. All Im asking for with elude is that it doesnt turn off or lose radius when attacking, no matter the range stat you have at the time. 
 

Ill compare Baruuk’s Elude to Gauss’ Kinetic plating because I feel as if they are good comparisons. Both do not give a lot of survivability without effort.


Gauss requires a full batter for 80% DR, and only reaches 100% DR with maxed redline. Even then, its only DR vs certain damage types. In this way, Gauss is balanced with his 100% DR because it requires work to achieve and isnt omnipotent. 

 

Baruuk at base only eludes with 180 degrees. You must mod him to reach that 360 degree radius, and this is good. It requires player investment if they want to make the most out of his ability. And then, it still has weaknesses to AoE attacks, something every faction does have access too[ Grineer:Napalms, hyekka masters, bombards, nox|||Corpus: Sapper drones|||Infested :Mutalist Moas, Mutilist ospreys, toxic ancients], while also being a constant energy drain and removing the use of Rage, something most tank frames use to off set energy costs.  
 

ironically enough, this means in practice, even if Baruuk had elude active 100% of the time (and it doesnt deactivate or lose range when attacking) He still is at greater risk then gauss, who is for all intents immortal vs grineer and very survivable against corpus. Baruuk is better vs infested tho. 
 

Its almost as if DE originally planned to have elude not deactivate on attacking, which is why they added so many forms of DR to his kit to compromise for his other weaknesses in a way, but for whatever reason also made elude only work when being passive. 
 

Baruuk reminds me of old Oberon, who has all the components to being a great frame, but needs minor stat tweaks and mechanic changes before he can be a great frame. Oberon needed renewal to be a toggle, baruuk needs elude to not be deactivated while attacking. 
 

this has been my CLEMtalk

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