Revenant Full Rework Discussion

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

There are multiple definitions of good. 

While rev can survive the longest of any frame, except maybe ivara who just stays invisible forever, that doesnt mean he is a good design. The old wukong was very similar. He was for all intents immortal, but he had many issues within his kit that kept him from being a good frame, while still being good at surviving. 

Doesn't answer my question.

I asked what makes a frame good and not why wukong received a rework.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Doesn't answer my question.

I asked what makes a frame good and not why wukong received a rework.

I answered your question. Being able to survival for hours on end doesn't make a frame good. 
 

personally, a good frame is one that has good inbuilt synergy, that isnt anti-synergistic or forced (rev has both). Also, 60% of the frames abilities/passives must Be useable in such a way that it doesnt hamper the player. 
 

examples of good frames: Rhino, Oberon, Nezha, Wukong, Gauss, Volt

 

Examples of bad frames: Revenant, Baruuk, Nyx, Hydroid, Nekros, Banshee
 

Now, there is a difference between being a bad frame and an unusable frame. All the frames listed are usable, but the bad ones either have poor synergies, anti synergies, or have abilities that are vestigial. 

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Examples of bad frames: Revenant, Baruuk, Nyx, Hydroid, Nekros, Banshee

Because frames don't have forced synergies, they're "bad"? Banshee and Nekros bad??? Serious now?

Mind if i help? Good frames are those that get jobs done and have a purpose. Frames that you can play without feeling weak. Or Frames you can pick for certain scenarios and be godlike (since not every frame has to be an allrounder). Not every frame needs a kit based around synergizing with each ability. Sometimes a simple kit with abilities that have their own purpose is better than making a kit that revolves around activating all abilities in order to do a thing effectively.

With Revenant i can cast my 2, cast my 4, and mobilize myself through the map with my 3 and nuke enemies out of existence before you can even reach them with your parkouring. I can stay invincible, nuke enemies away and also be able to do endurance runs and kill enemies that normally are too tanky to be killed with weapons. Not much support value but that's what other frames are there for such as Harrow, Trinity or even Banshee when it comes to allowing your team to kill enemies flawlessly with high damage.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Because frames don't have forced synergies, they're "bad"? Banshee and Nekros bad??? Serious now?

You misread what I typed. Its because they have forced synergies they are bad. 
 

Nekros and Banshee fit in the “under 60%” category, where One/two abilities are good (quite good actually) but the rest of the kit falls behind.  

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Mind if i help? Good frames are those that get jobs done and have a purpose.
 

by that metric each and every frame can never be bad. 

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Frames that you can play without feeling weak. Or Frames you can pick for certain scenarios and be godlike (since not every frame has to be an allrounder). Not every frame needs a kit based around synergizing with each ability.
 

correct. Which is why I dont add points to a frame being good if it has good synergies. I merely subtract points if the synergies are forced or actively detrimental. 

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Sometimes a simple kit with abilities that have their own purpose is better than making a kit that revolves around activating all abilities in order to do a thing effectively.

see rhino, who I said was a good frame

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

With Revenant i can cast my 2, cast my 4, and mobilize myself through the map with my 3 and nuke enemies out of existence before you can even reach them with your parkouring.

since I play gauss I dont parkor, but thank you for the laugh. 

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I can stay invincible, nuke enemies away and also be able to do endurance runs and kill enemies that normally are too tanky to be killed with weapons.
 

thank you for bringing up this point. The whole “able to one shot” part of revs kit is a forced synergy, and ironically enough mesmer skin (which I think is a good ability and should not be changed) is the catalyst for many of revs anti synergies. 

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Not much support value but that's what other frames are there for such as Harrow, Trinity or even Banshee when it comes to allowing your team to kill enemies flawlessly with high damage.

Dont need support value to be good. See wukong. 

[IceColdHawk]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Nekros and Banshee fit in the “under 60%” category, where One/two abilities are good (quite good actually) but the rest of the kit falls behind.  

 

Nekros has got 1 ability that's absolutely outdated and lacking use (outside of the augment) and that would be his 1. Banshee i can kinda understand that sentiment due to her very outdated 3 and still imo out of place 4th ability. But the fact she can have the strongest damage buff (or debuff rather) kinda keeps her at the throne of damage support. Her 1st is also quite good. Banshee perfect? Definitely no, far from it even. But bad? Hell no...

24 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

since I play gauss I dont parkor, but thank you for the laugh. 

 

What you mean laugh? Revenant can actually turn and stop briefly to 360 swipe enemies away. Been doing that for quite some time and if other people did that instead of focusing themself on his thralls or his "theme", they could understand too, but it seems like they don't wanna.

Unless you're laughing because i said parkour and you as Gauss (main?) are only running in which case i'll just say, heh, fair.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

thank you for bringing up this point. The whole “able to one shot” part of revs kit is a forced synergy, and ironically enough mesmer skin (which I think is a good ability and should not be changed) is the catalyst for many of revs anti synergies. 

 

At least Revenant doesn't require so much micromanagement or gets his "build up" shut down by a single nullifier touch. Whilst Revenant is nowhere near perfect and his passive laughably useless (since you're not supposed to ever take shield damage at all with his mesmer skin on), he gets S#&$ done and isn't even too hard to play. Damage is there, survivability is there and mobility is there too. That's not "bad" by any reasonable means.

30 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Dont need support value to be good. See wukong. 

Hence i said "but that's what other frames are there for" because not every frame needs to be a supporter.

[(XBOX)ZiostShadow]

Revenant is a great frame for survivability, tanking and pulling aggro from teammates and/or objectives. I have spent a lot of time and invested 9 forma into Revenant testing different builds and he is easily my favorite frame.

That being said, I do think he needs some attention. I do not feel that he needs a full rework though. 

I think that Mesmer Skin is fine just the way it is. Please don't touch this ability. It's his bread and butter. If you don't love this ability, then you are wrong.

Reave is great to heal up from environmental damage or if you let your Mesmer Skin run out of charges and take damage (or if you accidentally end up under a pesky nullifier bubble). I do think this ability needs to lose the wind-up though. I also think it would be nice to be able to hold the ability and cover more ground with it (while draining more energy over time of course).

I think instead of Enthrall Being a single target per cast ability, Enthrall should affect all targets around Revenant in a 20m radius or so (affected by range). This would make the ability have much more CC potential and It would be used much more frequently. Maybe a duration-based damage-reduction for allies could also be added to this ability as well.

Danse Macabre I feel should be changed to something similar to the Eidolon Energy Spike. Dealing adaptive damage (just like the current DM) to enemies within a radius of 30m (affected by range) and it should not require LoS. Enthralled enemies would take 200% damage from this ability (affected by power-strength).

Revenant's passive should be: Slam attacks with a melee weapon force all enemies within 15m to target Revenant for 5 seconds.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

22 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Okay then question time, what does make a frame good in your eyes? Cause apparently being able to infinitely solo survival hours doesn't make a frame good for you.

To me,OP, the issue with Revenant is not that he is bad, i enjoy playing him and he is pretty good- My problem and the reason I feel he needs a rework to an extent is that he doesn't fit his theme very well at all and his mechanics are all rather sloppy- To me being good is relative, I don't care about a frame's stats and abilities, I want to have fun playing them, it's why I don't enjoy most nuke room with 1 button frames and prefer cc frames like nyx/vaub/zephy, or single target mobile damage dealers like titania- My one exception is Ember because currently she requires a setup, you have to manage her damage reduction with energy drain and want to strip armour before you ult, plus since your ult is line of sight(albeit wonky los) you have to move around a lot rather then just sit in the middle of the room-

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

To me,OP, the issue with Revenant is not that he is bad, i enjoy playing him and he is pretty good- My problem and the reason I feel he needs a rework to an extent is that he doesn't fit his theme very well at all and his mechanics are all rather sloppy- To me being good is relative, I don't care about a frame's stats and abilities, I want to have fun playing them, it's why I don't enjoy most nuke room with 1 button frames and prefer cc frames like nyx/vaub/zephy, or single target mobile damage dealers like titania- My one exception is Ember because currently she requires a setup, you have to manage her damage reduction with energy drain and want to strip armour before you ult, plus since your ult is line of sight(albeit wonky los) you have to move around a lot rather then just sit in the middle of the room-

Unfortunately I don't think Revenant will ever get the necessary rework to make him a proper Sentient or Eidelon frame. He was born flawed and I dont thinks either DE or thr majority of the player base has interest on fixing that. I pretty sure his desiner no longer works there , and I dont think the rest of the desiners really care about him ( the master piece called blinding speaks volumes about how much people care about him ).

I dislike him the same way I dislike Chroma , they just take a really interesting desing space and underlivers the themes ( Chroma theme is big gun damage and Revenat is IDK). The worst part is their numbers are hight enought to the point they are usefull so most of the community wants them to be the way they are due to fears of numerical nerf. 

[(NSW)Kiwihunter063]

For me I was thinking like the ability set would follow

Ability 1: Maybe a void blast? It’s from the Plain of Eidolon I would assume it should have something relevant to be good at eidolon capture 
 

Ability 2:   Inprison - Sends forth sentient energy that essentially CC’s enemies in range

edit: Eidolon cry - deals magnetic dmg, blinds enemies, and buffs allies with armor

Ability 3: Sentient adaptation - Works like adaptation except drains energy. Maybe drains more energy depending on how many status effects you are resisting?

Ability 4: Disco ball

Passive: ????
 

Edit: There could be two abilities that don’t fit but it’s worth a try

- Mimicry: Can copy any object or Warframe or enemy as long as it’s grounded. It also has energy drain.

- Sentient cry: Deals magnetic damage and blinds enemies

Revenant is ok but I never liked him. I really do hate the lack of continuity with his lore or theme.

 

Edit: There is already ability suggestions but these are also sentient related but just not eidolon related 

Edited January 13, 2020 by (NSW)Kiwihunter063

[(PSN)llx__Atlas__xll]

Some of my ideas:

make Mesmer skin Revenants passive, scaling with strength as it is. if the charges deplete he does kind of a spectral scream like the eidolons, stunning enemies opening them up for enthral without energy cost.

1st: Let Enthral scale with strength, so you can have more then 7 thralls and make it purely duration based, or so that only Revenant can kill the Thralls gaining a Mesmer charge. I hate running around and watching my teammates killing all my thralls. keep the fountain effect but buff their projectiles and give it the same adaptive damage as his 4 has. same goes for the damage output of the Thralls

2nd: put Reave here and change the ability to a kind of devour like ability, consuming all Thralls in affinity range and gaining the amount of charges for your passive. similar to the way the eidolon consumes Vomvalysts when it is down. plus adding a buff depending on the amount of thralls consumed: 1-6 removing negative status, 7-13 adding a Dmgbuff, 14-20 adding an armor buff, 21+ adding a full heal + overshield (for you and your teammates)

3rd: kind of an eidolon like scream buffing the thralls in damage and refreshing their duration, same way the eidolon buffs the vomvalysts or at least in a similar way

4th: keep the ability but Thralls destroyed by this ability drop energy instead of overshield orbs

[(NSW)Kiwihunter063]

5 hours ago, (PS4)llx__Atlas__xll said:

Some of my ideas:

make Mesmer skin Revenants passive, scaling with strength as it is. if the charges deplete he does kind of a spectral scream like the eidolons, stunning enemies opening them up for enthral without energy cost.

1st: Let Enthral scale with strength, so you can have more then 7 thralls and make it purely duration based, or so that only Revenant can kill the Thralls gaining a Mesmer charge. I hate running around and watching my teammates killing all my thralls. keep the fountain effect but buff their projectiles and give it the same adaptive damage as his 4 has. same goes for the damage output of the Thralls

2nd: put Reave here and change the ability to a kind of devour like ability, consuming all Thralls in affinity range and gaining the amount of charges for your passive. similar to the way the eidolon consumes Vomvalysts when it is down. plus adding a buff depending on the amount of thralls consumed: 1-6 removing negative status, 7-13 adding a Dmgbuff, 14-20 adding an armor buff, 21+ adding a full heal + overshield (for you and your teammates)

3rd: kind of an eidolon like scream buffing the thralls in damage and refreshing their duration, same way the eidolon buffs the vomvalysts or at least in a similar way

4th: keep the ability but Thralls destroyed by this ability drop energy instead of overshield orbs

Most people want a full rework to keep some continuity with the eidolon/sentient theme so most people are ditching the thralls.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

22 hours ago, (NSW)Kiwihunter063 said:

Most people want a full rework to keep some continuity with the eidolon/sentient theme so most people are ditching the thralls.

Yes, this is why I proposed an optional split/keep type quest for Revenant 

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

On principle alone, mixing vampiric elements into a Frame that lacks any tangible aspects of vampirism is a foolish endeavor, even more so regarding a Sentient Warframe. It feels as though DE was split on sharing those aspects between both Revenant & Garuda. In Garuda's case, she got a better kit out of the deal. Revenant suffers because he wasn't allowed to go all-out with the Sentient Eidolon aspect, and that's why we ended up with discount Nyx. Revenant desperately needs a rework that makes his Sentient aspects shine more, perhaps starting by adding Adaptation into his passive. He needs a better tanking ability THAT ISN'T CHARGE-BASED, as well as more damage opportunities outside of Danse Macabre. Why he turns into mist while Vomvalysts turn into energy and actually DO damage in that form is beyond me.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

On principle alone, mixing vampiric elements into a Frame that lacks any tangible aspects of vampirism is a foolish endeavor, even more so regarding a Sentient Warframe. It feels as though DE was split on sharing those aspects between both Revenant & Garuda. In Garuda's case, she got a better kit out of the deal. Revenant suffers because he wasn't allowed to go all-out with the Sentient Eidolon aspect, and that's why we ended up with discount Nyx. Revenant desperately needs a rework that makes his Sentient aspects shine more, perhaps starting by adding Adaptation into his passive. He needs a better tanking ability THAT ISN'T CHARGE-BASED, as well as more damage opportunities outside of Danse Macabre. Why he turns into mist while Vomvalysts turn into energy and actually DO damage in that form is beyond me.

THat is what happened, they handed development over to DE reb and she made it vampire themed, steve stepped in to make it more eidolon but it was to late and it got muddled up 

[(PSN)Binky_93]

I 'main' Revenant and he is my favourite frame, I have a few suggestions that would make him perfect in my eyes.

Skill 1) I think they should increase pillar radius, allow pillars to damage thralls, and increase the amount Revenant can have from 7. So enthrall a few enemies..they're spreading, kill a few and the pillars then start spreading as the enemies die like dominoes. Why is there a 7 limit like nekros anyway? Its not like you spawn them in yourself and keep them alive for as long as possible. Revenant should be about killing his enslaved as fast as possible.

Skill 3) lower strength soft cap very slightly, Reave fits in with the kill thralls fast idea

He definitely needs a new passive, I don't really have a suggestion for one but anything would be better than what he has currently.

Speed up his casting times/animations, natural talent feels like a must on him as all of his abilities are SO SO slow to cast, personaly I would like to see this mod removed and all warframes with slow animations sped up as it takes up a mod slot. Or at the very least make it an exilus.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by (PS4)Binky_93