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Effort progression vs RNG progression


ixidron92
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I don't understand why DE has chose this new RNG everything kind of progression (well, actually I do, and it boils down to money), but everyone agrees that RNG everything is nefarious. They claim it increases replayability, I claim bullsh*t. It doesn't increase replayability. It favors mindless repetition. It favors rolling the dice, paying the lotto. It's not a reward system based on the amount of time and effort you spend to get a reward. Instead, the reward is awarded based on pure dumb luck. Someone might play for an hour and get everything out of sheer coincidence while another poor schmuck could play for month and still be missing those stupidly rare rewards with 0.101% chance to drop.

The truth is, right now, 90% of your railjack's max potential is gated behind pure RNG.

So, why this stupid reward system? Surely an effort and time based one is not so hard to come by. People already made tons of suggestions:

Being able to combine wreckage to contribute part of the repair resources needed and to transfer stats.

Being able to upgrade the extra stats using diracs and other resources. So, even if you get a bad roll, you can eventually max out the weapon/component.

Being able to upgrade a weapon/component from one rank to the next at a discount if you already have the previous one and the correspondent wreckage.  This alone already helps solve the problem of skipping everything but MkIII to avoid wasting resources. If you have a good MkI and you spend time upgrading its stats, of course you're gonna want to keep upgrading it to MkII and MkIII.

Avionics fusion: Being able to combine the same avionic of one house to get to the next best one (i.e: 4xLavan=1 Vidar. 4xVidar=1Zetki).

But all that, of course, all that would be fair. All that would be engaging. All that won't make people sink into despair and try to use platinum to skip content. 

 

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hace 7 minutos, bad4youLT dijo:

RNG = longer play times and to qoute DE Rebecca "warframe is a f2p game that survives on daily logins" , plus the lack of content allows RNG to artificialy extend its life span.

Does it, though? It works in the short term, but all you manage to do is make all but your most loyal or most addicted customers pissed.

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I don't know if you noticed, but to most developers, and this includes the warframe devs, it is actually quite difficult to keep players busy until they have new content ready.
You say you prefer a reward system based on effort and time spent. I personally wouldn't mind rewards based on achivement, but there are too many op warframes, so we don't get to have that. I don't think system like the intrinsics are that much better, than rng.
To say, that 90% of your railjacks power is gated behind RNG is misleading. 90% of your railjacks max power isn't that difficult to get. So it's maybe the final 10%, that requires more investment and is more difficult to get. We could argue about how much it is exactly and how much would be acceptable. The relevant parts here imo would be a vidar reactor with a good roll and void hole. Void hole is comparable to any other rare mod in the game and you can trade for it, if you want to skip the rng.
The vidar reactor is a different matter. I would agree, that this one is super annoying, but I would expect to get some kind of way to reroll the stats on this gear. They very much messed up the amount of dirac we get vs how much we need, so I wouldn't be surprised if we were going to able to sink a bunch of dirac into rerolling our equipment at some point.
The progression in general is pretty bad right now. I do expect it to change once they are back from holidays.

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hace 5 minutos, gluih dijo:

I don't know if you noticed, but to most developers, and this includes the warframe devs, it is actually quite difficult to keep players busy until they have new content ready.
You say you prefer a reward system based on effort and time spent. I personally wouldn't mind rewards based on achivement, but there are too many op warframes, so we don't get to have that. I don't think system like the intrinsics are that much better, than rng.
To say, that 90% of your railjacks power is gated behind RNG is misleading. 90% of your railjacks max power isn't that difficult to get. So it's maybe the final 10%, that requires more investment and is more difficult to get. We could argue about how much it is exactly and how much would be acceptable. The relevant parts here imo would be a vidar reactor with a good roll and void hole. Void hole is comparable to any other rare mod in the game and you can trade for it, if you want to skip the rng.
The vidar reactor is a different matter. I would agree, that this one is super annoying, but I would expect to get some kind of way to reroll the stats on this gear. They very much messed up the amount of dirac we get vs how much we need, so I wouldn't be surprised if we were going to able to sink a bunch of dirac into rerolling our equipment at some point.
The progression in general is pretty bad right now. I do expect it to change once they are back from holidays.

You think it's misleading? You can get the sigma components and weapons, but they are subpar compared to the rest. All components have an extra utility and can almost double in effectiveness the baseline sigmas. Then, every single avionics is pure RNG, with most being 3.7% to 0.101%, because, as it turns out, enemies only have a 10% chance to drop an avionics. So that's it, without avionics, you're kneecapped. Hyperstrike and bulkhead are mandatory and those good avionics with insanely low chance to drop are the ones that make railjack remotely playable.

You think they are like rare mods? Name a single one that costs 500 platinum in the market like munitions vortex. Not even CO or maiming strike back then when they were ridiculously op.

I just find it hilarious that you need veil equipment to deal with veil enemies.

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5 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

You think it's misleading? You can get the sigma components and weapons, but they are subpar compared to the rest. All components have an extra utility and can almost double in effectiveness the baseline sigmas.

So let's just for the sake of the argument assume, that the random drops are going to double the effectiveness of your railjack compared to one with sigma gear. That would mean, that ~50% of your railjacks power would be locked behind rng. On top of that, because of how statistics work you are probably going to have a bunch of useful components, which is how you get to ~90%.

10 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Then, every single avionics is pure RNG, with most being 3.7% to 0.101%, because, as it turns out, enemies only have a 10% chance to drop an avionics. So that's it, without avionics, you're kneecapped. Hyperstrike and bulkhead are mandatory and those good avionics with insanely low chance to drop are the ones that make railjack remotely playable.

Zetki hyperstrike and bulkhead are incredibly overrated. You can easily complete veil missions without those avionics.

10 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

You think they are like rare mods? Name a single one that costs 500 platinum in the market like munitions vortex. Not even CO or maiming strike back then when they were ridiculously op.

Yes, they are very much like rare mods. The difference is, that empyrian is new. As a result, people didn't have as much time to get them. Once people start finding and selling drops they don't need, the price is going to drop. You also don't have as many options, because the whole system isn't as developed as the rest of the game. This increases demand for the specific avionics, that do work.

10 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I just find it hilarious that you need veil equipment to deal with veil enemies.

Where else would you use veil equipment?

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1 hour ago, gluih said:

I don't know if you noticed, but to most developers, and this includes the warframe devs, it is actually quite difficult to keep players busy until they have new content ready.so yo

This is why its better to have some system where people can have the option B. To invest time and resources to just straight up guranteed improving the stats of items, over constantly trying to lift a 5 ton lever to spin a 100 sided dice and pray it lands on a 5 or less so you have the chance of it being KIND of better, but it can still have a 80%-99% critical failure that is completely unknown to you.

This is why i gravitated towards games like Dragalia lost for mobile and now want to consider dropping Honkai impact 3rd. Latter may have me on stockholm syndrome, but it relies on its gacha to get the good stuff and they lock behind most f2p loot thru competitive `dollar market` systems where only the whales get a chance to stay consistently high to keep the best crystal currency rewards for more things like buying stamina and gacha. While in Dragalia lost`s case i can still farm materials to upgrade `castle structures` for extra bonus stats, Plus `weapons` are gained from crafting, and fusing them together to up the max stats and lead to making them into enhanced versions. Only Gacha on that is when you want to roll for new adventurers (which you only need one copy of and any dupes give a resource which you get plenty of in other ways, to further improve ANY of the characters) and dragons (which still has the option of using special items given out thru events/challenges to skip having to get dupes to make them better).

The system has to be generous to the free to play, to retain retention, since you can only make players who HAVE satisfaction in the game, to make them consider `paying`. Just as that stupid quote was meme`d about, but was used completely wrong, it should be `Happy players, make generous payers`, you can`t make players into payers if the reason they want to pay is forcing them to consider it over bad grindie systems.

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You say you prefer a reward system based on effort and time spent. I personally wouldn't mind rewards based on achivement, but there are too many op warframes, so we don't get to have that. I don't think system like the intrinsics are that much better, than rng.

Thats kind of why its D.E.`s job to properly review feed back and start doing some big brain-storming to come up with ways to work around the OP warframes, such as making game modes which capitalize on that feeling (on top of game modes which might prioritize gun play more), sort of like how Destiny had in some of its PvP game modes where abilities were jacked up to recharge fast, basically if you know League of Legend`s URF mode, it was pretty much letting pure chaos go nuts where people could spam abilities and just have loads of fun. Probably do not need something on that level for warframe, but i would certainly like some endless modes (preferably fissure) to give people those fun moments where they would get more powerful effects constantly stacking to where they feel they hold the power of a trillion suns, as they farm deeper and deeper into those endless missions, while also giving them better rewards.

Sadly we can`t expect any kind of endless mode for railjack since its in too much of a fked up state to consider such, but in terms of warframes, it would be nice if warframe abilities were REMOVED from the tactical system and we just had some no cost option types that the host could put up as various picks to tailor thar railjack to having useful passive functionalities, which could be maybe increase range of turrets, speed up the charge speed of the artillery cannons if they aren`t going to let us replace those things or maybe defense abilities that could put some kind of dang resistance to prevent our ships from getting layered with ruptures and fires so easily.

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To say, that 90% of your railjacks power is gated behind RNG is misleading. 90% of your railjacks max power isn't that difficult to get. So it's maybe the final 10%, that requires more investment and is more difficult to get. We could argue about how much it is exactly and how much would be acceptable.

You need to basically make Sigma parts to have a chance to decently and swiftly get into saturn nodes, but since MKII parts tend to cost around 3k titanium which on console land that is easily 400-700 a full 25~ minute romp thru jex lanes or so, namely using missile volley to just exploit a flux energy recovery exploit and rush out clearing out as many ships as possible, but granted the space maps are likely always the same, your still likely going to have quite a bit of time `farming` those, even if you invest in a resource booster.

Now lets do a bit of math:

400-700 a run for a MKII sigma is basically 7.5 rounds to 4.28(lets say 4.3) rounds. Which basically translates to 187.5 minutes to 107.5 minutes.

Meaning one can basically say it takes 1 hour and a half hours to a little over 3 hours of non-stop running thru maps just to have the TITANIUM necessary for MKII, which a MKIII is 6k and MKIII Zekti parts is a whooping 12k titanium. Now i dont know how great they boosted the loot rates in the 3 hotfixes only on pc, but thats some absurd rates. Oh plus we did not even account for how long it takes to kill the enemies, loot the drops they have and loading times per instance and doing higher level maps, since Jex lanes is one of the lower end maps for `material farming` on EARTH Proxima.

Plus this is for PER part, not counting repeating HIGHER rolls, the OTHER materials one needs to farm for said goods, plus the fact you still have to wait 12 hours per part, before they can be used to hopefully make the grind go just a little bit faster, Plus you still need to stock up plenty of copernics, pustrels, carbides and diodes to keep a healthy stock for not only repairing/fabricating some parts but also to restock your ammo, especially for each run.

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The relevant parts here imo would be a vidar reactor with a good roll and void hole. Void hole is comparable to any other rare mod in the game and you can trade for it, if you want to skip the rng.

Yeah too bad for console that hotfix to be able to trade that stuff is not in yet, Plus we do not really have a consistent way to know where to specifically chase certain parts except just trying to find the easiest map to blast on a certain proxima and pray the fighters drop it for the most part. Since every map is just archwing exterminate, except constantly jacking up the enemy level and basically doubling/tripling the enemy count (which atleast solar map exterminates did not just double its count half way thru its planet), with very little increase in the end rewards table once you GOT to the next planet.

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The vidar reactor is a different matter. I would agree, that this one is super annoying, but I would expect to get some kind of way to reroll the stats on this gear.

Funny how i suggested this same change to kuva weapons, Since Kuva was always tied to freaking re-rolling riven mods, why cant we use kuva to magically reroll those freaking weapons so we aren`t stuck somehow meme-ing each lich dead fast in a few hours or take 1-3 days like a average pleb to just clear a bad roll for a lich weapon. But honestly i would rather wish i could just scrap salvage weapons/parts, get some `special core material`, then cram 3 to 6 of them into a weapon/part to increase its stats by 5~10% of its max roll and repeat the process till its at its highest maximum tier.

Least then the system would feel `fair` so i can always take the pile of tissue rolls i got and trade it in as the pity prize reward, just like how in Final Fantasy 14 you could trade in 99 clears on certain `hard mode bosses` to guaranteed getting the main reason to spam them, the freaking exclusive mount from them, which is normally a low drop rate item.

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They ver roly much messed up the amount of dirac we get vs how much we need, so I wouldn't be surprised if we were going to able to sink a bunch of dirac into rerolling our equipment at some point.
The progression in general is pretty bad right now. I do expect it to change once they are back from holidays.

Rather not it be dirac since we already need to cram as much as 1600 for grid 3 upgrades, plus not counting the costs necessary for upgrading new `avionics`. Plus does not seem like we get much of a refund back if we scrap a max roll vidar/lavan that had a sizable chunk of dirac put into it(would be nice if we got a 80% refund back on fully upgraded avionics i mean).

Speaking. Of. Progression. Where be the bloody end reason to even do railjack to begin with? Extra Mastery? 3 New Weapons? Zilch, nothing really except just to be prepared for a new gameplay element later down the line for railjack, which may/may-not have anything SIZABLE we can take back into regular gameplay.

Oh lets do a prediction! Im going to bet the new jester `big rear` tech frame will be locked behind the next railjack section when corpus are introduced maybe! Just like how they did with Khora by cramming her in sanctuary onslaught, Grendel in arbitations technically, Hildryn behind exploiter orb and so many other recently new warframes behind game modes and not in FREAKING stories which felt like you earn it and not just had someone carry you thru that farm or you had to use a much more superior frame to farm them, only to build them, max them and forget they exist, again.

Plus before you say Mods could be introduced to Railjack, just no, NO! Most builds are basically set in stone so most mods might as well not exist. They have to be on the spectrum of breaking the freaking game (Rolling Guard & Adaptation) to even make a sizable dent to take the place of other mods. Plus most `gimmick` mods would likely only find a place on newer player builds or ECCENTRIC builds, too bad railjack, like plenty of other game modes, are no-where near friendly to bring them into it, especially when no real `tutorial modes` exist for railjack and other game modes

Ultimately, D.E. focused on putting a new `fancy gameplay gimmick` that is completely isolated to the main part of warframe, when they mentioned earlier of wanting to bring warframe into a more connected environment, yet fail to create a solid reason on WHY play railjack, besides being some tedious buggie mess.

Anyway ill stop the rambling, just me basically venting my pent up frustrations on how tiresome it is to keep doing railjack runs to farm for mats, to try and get Sigma MKIII parts so if i ever go into the veil proxima maps, i am not hopelessly out-gunned, but i already killed the main reasons by hitching a ride on someone else`s railjacks and got the shedu built. Which sadly has that reload bug where you cant fire at all period(RIP if its still present in later hotfixes that console does not have yet).

....Oh and also FK the fact D.E. seems to have not fix Sigma MKIII engines being bugged to not give move speed yet boost speed is fine, but seems to have not been addressed in the first 5 hotfixes yet.

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53 minutes ago, Avienas said:

This is why i gravitated towards games like Dragalia lost for mobile and now want to consider dropping Honkai impact 3rd. Latter may have me on stockholm syndrome, but it relies on its gacha to get the good stuff and they lock behind most f2p loot thru competitive `dollar market` systems where only the whales get a chance to stay consistently high to keep the best crystal currency rewards for more things like buying stamina and gacha. While in Dragalia lost`s case i can still farm materials to upgrade `castle structures` for extra bonus stats, Plus `weapons` are gained from crafting, and fusing them together to up the max stats and lead to making them into enhanced versions. Only Gacha on that is when you want to roll for new adventurers (which you only need one copy of and any dupes give a resource which you get plenty of in other ways, to further improve ANY of the characters) and dragons (which still has the option of using special items given out thru events/challenges to skip having to get dupes to make them better).

What are you even talking about?

 

54 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Thats kind of why its D.E.`s job to properly review feed back and start doing some big brain-storming to come up with ways to work around the OP warframes, such as making game modes which capitalize on that feeling (on top of game modes which might prioritize gun play more), sort of like how Destiny had in some of its PvP game modes where abilities were jacked up to recharge fast, basically if you know League of Legend`s URF mode, it was pretty much letting pure chaos go nuts where people could spam abilities and just have loads of fun. Probably do not need something on that level for warframe, but i would certainly like some endless modes (preferably fissure) to give people those fun moments where they would get more powerful effects constantly stacking to where they feel they hold the power of a trillion suns, as they farm deeper and deeper into those endless missions, while also giving them better rewards.

Sadly we can`t expect any kind of endless mode for railjack since its in too much of a fked up state to consider such, but in terms of warframes, it would be nice if warframe abilities were REMOVED from the tactical system and we just had some no cost option types that the host could put up as various picks to tailor thar railjack to having useful passive functionalities, which could be maybe increase range of turrets, speed up the charge speed of the artillery cannons if they aren`t going to let us replace those things or maybe defense abilities that could put some kind of dang resistance to prevent our ships from getting layered with ruptures and fires so easily.

How does something like URF mode have anything to do with progression? Specifically when it comes to achievement based rewards? URF mode would be the opposite of an environment where being good at the game is actually relevant.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

You need to basically make Sigma parts to have a chance to decently and swiftly get into saturn nodes, but since MKII parts tend to cost around 3k titanium which on console land that is easily 400-700 a full 25~ minute romp thru jex lanes or so, namely using missile volley to just exploit a flux energy recovery exploit and rush out clearing out as many ships as possible, but granted the space maps are likely always the same, your still likely going to have quite a bit of time `farming` those, even if you invest in a resource booster.

Now lets do a bit of math:

400-700 a run for a MKII sigma is basically 7.5 rounds to 4.28(lets say 4.3) rounds. Which basically translates to 187.5 minutes to 107.5 minutes.

Meaning one can basically say it takes 1 hour and a half hours to a little over 3 hours of non-stop running thru maps just to have the TITANIUM necessary for MKII, which a MKIII is 6k and MKIII Zekti parts is a whooping 12k titanium. Now i dont know how great they boosted the loot rates in the 3 hotfixes only on pc, but thats some absurd rates. Oh plus we did not even account for how long it takes to kill the enemies, loot the drops they have and loading times per instance and doing higher level maps, since Jex lanes is one of the lower end maps for `material farming` on EARTH Proxima.

If you are complaining, that it takes too long to get the resources for an item, then that is pretty much the point I was making earlier. You have RNG, because without RNG the only way to keep players busy is to increase the grind even more. 

 

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Funny how i suggested this same change to kuva weapons, Since Kuva was always tied to freaking re-rolling riven mods, why cant we use kuva to magically reroll those freaking weapons so we aren`t stuck somehow meme-ing each lich dead fast in a few hours or take 1-3 days like a average pleb to just clear a bad roll for a lich weapon. But honestly i would rather wish i could just scrap salvage weapons/parts, get some `special core material`, then cram 3 to 6 of them into a weapon/part to increase its stats by 5~10% of its max roll and repeat the process till its at its highest maximum tier.

Congrats on your amazing suggestion?

 

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Speaking. Of. Progression. Where be the bloody end reason to even do railjack to begin with? Extra Mastery? 3 New Weapons? Zilch, nothing really except just to be prepared for a new gameplay element later down the line for railjack, which may/may-not have anything SIZABLE we can take back into regular gameplay.

Oh lets do a prediction! Im going to bet the new jester `big rear` tech frame will be locked behind the next railjack section when corpus are introduced maybe! Just like how they did with Khora by cramming her in sanctuary onslaught, Grendel in arbitations technically, Hildryn behind exploiter orb and so many other recently new warframes behind game modes and not in FREAKING stories which felt like you earn it and not just had someone carry you thru that farm or you had to use a much more superior frame to farm them, only to build them, max them and forget they exist, again.

Plus before you say Mods could be introduced to Railjack, just no, NO! Most builds are basically set in stone so most mods might as well not exist. They have to be on the spectrum of breaking the freaking game (Rolling Guard & Adaptation) to even make a sizable dent to take the place of other mods. Plus most `gimmick` mods would likely only find a place on newer player builds or ECCENTRIC builds, too bad railjack, like plenty of other game modes, are no-where near friendly to bring them into it, especially when no real `tutorial modes` exist for railjack and other game modes

Ultimately, D.E. focused on putting a new `fancy gameplay gimmick` that is completely isolated to the main part of warframe, when they mentioned earlier of wanting to bring warframe into a more connected environment, yet fail to create a solid reason on WHY play railjack, besides being some tedious buggie mess.

What is the end reason of anything really?

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3 hours ago, gluih said:

What are you even talking about?

One system basically locks behind getting `better` goods to get loot by paying to get loot good enough to get said better goods, effectively invalidating why the fk you were chasing for better goods, which you wanted to be able to get better loot.

The other basically gives you a way to continuously gain power by being able to always have some way to keep gaining incremental power. Which pretty much means the whole, if you have trouble with clearing some difficult objective, you can always try again in a few days after that `incremental` power has gotten high enough to let you surpass whatever DPS check you have.

Though if you want a simplified version: One makes you want to quit the game ASAP if you have a better pick that doesn't require you to shell our your card or play the market-place farming game and no stockholm syndrome about, The latter atleast gurantees you will eventually be able to clear it without needing to get something that utterly middle fingers the concept of the game. Railjack basically forces the idea where you are BETTER OFF farming 50 plat multiple times, rush to get MKIII parts thru hitch-hiking rides on other people`s ships in saturn and eventually the veil and burn those precious plat boats on `repair drones` to skip a huge amount of frustrating grind, because its more `time efficient` then buying boosters and go on a material farming spree. 

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How does something like URF mode have anything to do with progression? Specifically when it comes to achievement based rewards? URF mode would be the opposite of an environment where being good at the game is actually relevant.

Try to listen to the CONTEXT which is in multiple sections, this part is specifically towards the fun-factor. Because There is a reason why Disruption is FUN compared to alot of other game modes. Your in constant motion, you do not need to wipe out the entire map to reach the next objective, frames that are MOBILE and good at CC-ing specific targets while also having some durability are freaking ROYALTY in disruption.

In looter based games its important that if a game must follow REPETITION for loot, then not only said loot needs to be DESIRABLE and worth while outside of some party popper left of meme`ry (looking at you Flower & Growth meme mods), but most important of all that REPETITION needs to also be FUN in some matter. Two of the best ways i know of for repetitive game-play is to give something that boosts the value as you go longer into that session while also allowing some sort of even ground rules for players to get, if enemies have to keep scaling when they already have BAD forms of health values (*cough* armor scaling *cough*), which also does not help when the existence if `nullifiers` exist amongst other particular enemy types who get absurdly cheap ways to just one shot durable frames unless they are effectively immortal in terms of durability.

D.E. keeps forgetting to include these two factors by not god damn moving fissure mini-booster bonuses to regular fissures and giving arbitration, Kuva endless & regular fissure bonus special endless bonus modifiers which entices longer game play, in addition to the fact that things just simply become more un-fun by going longer then maybe as far as 4 rounds, since there is literally NO logically reason to go past a 4th round on any endless mission, outside of `loading times` and what not, since enemies get a sizable amount of durability once 20 minutes/rounds have gone by. Which honestly i wish they would tweak those things so survival/defense/interception could be sped up in some way to make things more desirable to do them, since if DISRUPTION exists in the same reward table as them, then the latter is usually better since you can infinite spam rotation C loot extremely fast.

 

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If you are complaining, that it takes too long to get the resources for an item, then that is pretty much the point I was making earlier. You have RNG, because without RNG the only way to keep players busy is to increase the grind even more. 

Its more then RNG, resource drops in space can be hard to spot on ends, especially when `metal rectangles` and `vaguely orange rocks` can be quite difficult to spot if you are not knowledgeable on what types of structures they gather around, plus its not really EXPLAINED in something like a GOD. CLEM. TUTORIAL. So you have to learn by experience on these. But if the normal retention rate for farming is anything to go by, people do not enjoy flying around, eye-balling small objects off at a distance, which could easily be obscured by the `sun` or the color of the planet itself, making you have to rely on seeing the large clusters of `decoration` to tell what it is.

On top of that, lets not even forget that the railjack can feel especially slow even with a MKI zekti engine boosting it by about 18.7 km/h...Which apparently a base engine is around 307m/s where a 20.7% conic nozzle brings that up by about 63m/s and a 18.7 km/h brings that up by another 93 points where you would think effectively going from 307 to around 463ish, should mean your going about 50% faster, yet does not real feel so. The fact that boosting feels sluggish since it takes forever to recharge and if you try to use `drifting` which honestly i rather call warp boosting, you could easily get out of `vaccum` range of loot. Which honestly i feel like any loot that is floating as blue/yellow/purple diamonds should just immediately gravitate towards the railjack or the nearest player due to how much loot you have to farm or at the very least up all loot vac ranges by about 2.5x what they are since you have to have the ship basically right on top of the loot, to `vacuum` it.

P.S. do not even get me started on how annoying those engines sound, D.E. should let us have a toggle to change those engine sounds to something more silent, URGH.

Double P.S. The reason why regular map loot is fine is because we have a actual map, which means we can see where the loot objects are, you may say lockers exist, but those tend to be large cylinders with glowing green lights on them, not in a back-drop that can hurt the eyes and its not like they give 3 to 10 times the loot any other destructible objective on the field that `has` a loot icon on the map in comparison.

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Congrats on your amazing suggestion?

Plenty people have suggested many ideas on it, i wasnt exactly the first person who suggest that idea, just i was amongst the mob who `really` wanted some kind of change to NEGATE the tediousness of the entire system as a whole. Which again as i stated earlier, the last good feel system improvement i recall was Disruption, that basically changed the `best way` to farming relics, another means to credit farming and give us a more `fun` way to farm kuva...

...which the closest before that was all the fixes they did to arbitations. But HONESTLY, its pretty much a obvious fall 76 like meme trail that D.E. has been following, Release some kind of `new` content, then spend a few or several weeks hotfixing the crap out of it and it may even take a few months before said new content is in a decent shape. But likely except newer players and ones who out-right ignored it, are probably the only few people left who would try it, unless a `real` reason even exists to grind it. No, Riven mods do not count, since the weapons you would `want` rivens for usually have bad disposition due to people over using them.

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What is the end reason of anything really?

Thats a philosophical question to even ask, but honestly i feel my own ultimate answer should be one chasing towards satisfaction in some way. But that likely could get interpreted in way too many ways. Never the less, I just honestly wish D.E. would freaking learn to steer the ship in one direction, follow what they say on making a more connected game and actually fix up the old parts of the game so said connection can exist.

For example

  • Why not make it we can get Void traces in other ways then only specifically Fissures?
  • Why not create ways to have more effective use of credits such as trading resources, endo, credits, etc. to exchange shops to get particular `premium` goods, since most already want to treat mods with less then 2% drop rates or even less then .5% drop rates, as 5 plat or less?
  • Why not instead of sprinkling stuff like Ayatan stars, riven slivers and so on in various UNRELATED game modes, they should keep the ayatan stuff in arbitration or sorties with BONUS objective loot that could commonly give bundles of ayatan cyan/amber stars or statues, while riven based goods could be mostly regulated to the freaking Kuva Fortress or a low drop chance on smashing kuva siphons could give out riven slivers?
  • Why not have Relics have the capability to get `criticals` on fissure loot rotation drops where we can get 2 picks worth of loot in the relic share or 2 rolls worth of loot on our own relics...Though honestly fking get rid of relic shares and just let us get tree rolls on whatever our relic is with a restriction that prevents it rolling the same item on all of those 3 rolls, 2 at max for dupes period.
  • Why not have a `speed` clearing bonus to endless missions where quick dispatching of enemies in a rotation could result in a rotation skip with in fissures cases, could cause a bunch of reactants to `pop out` of a portal or so, especially to avoid that dreaded first rotation but only got 5-7 reactants annoyance.

Anyway plenty of WHY NOTs could be asked on why D.E. hasn`t done many things, but its clear they should of addressed plenty of things, way before we got chest-deep into a quick-sand of bad game design.

Edited by Avienas
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13 hours ago, Avienas said:

One system basically locks behind getting `better` goods to get loot by paying to get loot good enough to get said better goods, effectively invalidating why the fk you were chasing for better goods, which you wanted to be able to get better loot.

The other basically gives you a way to continuously gain power by being able to always have some way to keep gaining incremental power. Which pretty much means the whole, if you have trouble with clearing some difficult objective, you can always try again in a few days after that `incremental` power has gotten high enough to let you surpass whatever DPS check you have.

Though if you want a simplified version: One makes you want to quit the game ASAP if you have a better pick that doesn't require you to shell our your card or play the market-place farming game and no stockholm syndrome about, The latter atleast gurantees you will eventually be able to clear it without needing to get something that utterly middle fingers the concept of the game. Railjack basically forces the idea where you are BETTER OFF farming 50 plat multiple times, rush to get MKIII parts thru hitch-hiking rides on other people`s ships in saturn and eventually the veil and burn those precious plat boats on `repair drones` to skip a huge amount of frustrating grind, because its more `time efficient` then buying boosters and go on a material farming spree. 

Try to listen to the CONTEXT which is in multiple sections, this part is specifically towards the fun-factor. Because There is a reason why Disruption is FUN compared to alot of other game modes. Your in constant motion, you do not need to wipe out the entire map to reach the next objective, frames that are MOBILE and good at CC-ing specific targets while also having some durability are freaking ROYALTY in disruption.

In looter based games its important that if a game must follow REPETITION for loot, then not only said loot needs to be DESIRABLE and worth while outside of some party popper left of meme`ry (looking at you Flower & Growth meme mods), but most important of all that REPETITION needs to also be FUN in some matter. Two of the best ways i know of for repetitive game-play is to give something that boosts the value as you go longer into that session while also allowing some sort of even ground rules for players to get, if enemies have to keep scaling when they already have BAD forms of health values (*cough* armor scaling *cough*), which also does not help when the existence if `nullifiers` exist amongst other particular enemy types who get absurdly cheap ways to just one shot durable frames unless they are effectively immortal in terms of durability.

D.E. keeps forgetting to include these two factors by not god damn moving fissure mini-booster bonuses to regular fissures and giving arbitration, Kuva endless & regular fissure bonus special endless bonus modifiers which entices longer game play, in addition to the fact that things just simply become more un-fun by going longer then maybe as far as 4 rounds, since there is literally NO logically reason to go past a 4th round on any endless mission, outside of `loading times` and what not, since enemies get a sizable amount of durability once 20 minutes/rounds have gone by. Which honestly i wish they would tweak those things so survival/defense/interception could be sped up in some way to make things more desirable to do them, since if DISRUPTION exists in the same reward table as them, then the latter is usually better since you can infinite spam rotation C loot extremely fast.

 

Its more then RNG, resource drops in space can be hard to spot on ends, especially when `metal rectangles` and `vaguely orange rocks` can be quite difficult to spot if you are not knowledgeable on what types of structures they gather around, plus its not really EXPLAINED in something like a GOD. CLEM. TUTORIAL. So you have to learn by experience on these. But if the normal retention rate for farming is anything to go by, people do not enjoy flying around, eye-balling small objects off at a distance, which could easily be obscured by the `sun` or the color of the planet itself, making you have to rely on seeing the large clusters of `decoration` to tell what it is.

On top of that, lets not even forget that the railjack can feel especially slow even with a MKI zekti engine boosting it by about 18.7 km/h...Which apparently a base engine is around 307m/s where a 20.7% conic nozzle brings that up by about 63m/s and a 18.7 km/h brings that up by another 93 points where you would think effectively going from 307 to around 463ish, should mean your going about 50% faster, yet does not real feel so. The fact that boosting feels sluggish since it takes forever to recharge and if you try to use `drifting` which honestly i rather call warp boosting, you could easily get out of `vaccum` range of loot. Which honestly i feel like any loot that is floating as blue/yellow/purple diamonds should just immediately gravitate towards the railjack or the nearest player due to how much loot you have to farm or at the very least up all loot vac ranges by about 2.5x what they are since you have to have the ship basically right on top of the loot, to `vacuum` it.

P.S. do not even get me started on how annoying those engines sound, D.E. should let us have a toggle to change those engine sounds to something more silent, URGH.

Double P.S. The reason why regular map loot is fine is because we have a actual map, which means we can see where the loot objects are, you may say lockers exist, but those tend to be large cylinders with glowing green lights on them, not in a back-drop that can hurt the eyes and its not like they give 3 to 10 times the loot any other destructible objective on the field that `has` a loot icon on the map in comparison.

Plenty people have suggested many ideas on it, i wasnt exactly the first person who suggest that idea, just i was amongst the mob who `really` wanted some kind of change to NEGATE the tediousness of the entire system as a whole. Which again as i stated earlier, the last good feel system improvement i recall was Disruption, that basically changed the `best way` to farming relics, another means to credit farming and give us a more `fun` way to farm kuva...

...which the closest before that was all the fixes they did to arbitations. But HONESTLY, its pretty much a obvious fall 76 like meme trail that D.E. has been following, Release some kind of `new` content, then spend a few or several weeks hotfixing the crap out of it and it may even take a few months before said new content is in a decent shape. But likely except newer players and ones who out-right ignored it, are probably the only few people left who would try it, unless a `real` reason even exists to grind it. No, Riven mods do not count, since the weapons you would `want` rivens for usually have bad disposition due to people over using them.

Thats a philosophical question to even ask, but honestly i feel my own ultimate answer should be one chasing towards satisfaction in some way. But that likely could get interpreted in way too many ways. Never the less, I just honestly wish D.E. would freaking learn to steer the ship in one direction, follow what they say on making a more connected game and actually fix up the old parts of the game so said connection can exist.

For example

  • Why not make it we can get Void traces in other ways then only specifically Fissures?
  • Why not create ways to have more effective use of credits such as trading resources, endo, credits, etc. to exchange shops to get particular `premium` goods, since most already want to treat mods with less then 2% drop rates or even less then .5% drop rates, as 5 plat or less?
  • Why not instead of sprinkling stuff like Ayatan stars, riven slivers and so on in various UNRELATED game modes, they should keep the ayatan stuff in arbitration or sorties with BONUS objective loot that could commonly give bundles of ayatan cyan/amber stars or statues, while riven based goods could be mostly regulated to the freaking Kuva Fortress or a low drop chance on smashing kuva siphons could give out riven slivers?
  • Why not have Relics have the capability to get `criticals` on fissure loot rotation drops where we can get 2 picks worth of loot in the relic share or 2 rolls worth of loot on our own relics...Though honestly fking get rid of relic shares and just let us get tree rolls on whatever our relic is with a restriction that prevents it rolling the same item on all of those 3 rolls, 2 at max for dupes period.
  • Why not have a `speed` clearing bonus to endless missions where quick dispatching of enemies in a rotation could result in a rotation skip with in fissures cases, could cause a bunch of reactants to `pop out` of a portal or so, especially to avoid that dreaded first rotation but only got 5-7 reactants annoyance.

Anyway plenty of WHY NOTs could be asked on why D.E. hasn`t done many things, but its clear they should of addressed plenty of things, way before we got chest-deep into a quick-sand of bad game design.

Just to the last point: I do think, that steve has an idea of what he wants the game to be like. I also think, that past decisions and the resulting player base don't fit that vision perfectly to say the least (with warframes being too op), but that's beside the point. I think we are slowly getting there and releasing railjack was one step along the way. You can argue if it was a good idea to have it sit in this state over the holidays, but they probably thought, that giving the players something to do and having a big announcement at the game awards was better than not releasing this.

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I'm just tired of the double discourse of "we're going to lessen the grind" on devstreams, followed by more and more 2% drop rates on literally everything new, important or mandatory.

At this point, you guys need to realize something:

  • The biggest barrier of entry for any new players into warframe is the grind. The mountain to climb keeps getting bigger as the years pass, and it's a daunting task to even envision the amount of grind you need to do. Like I often want to introduce friends to warframe , but i'm like... Sorry, I can't realistically ask them to catch up to me who played 7 years and more than 4000 hours. Likewise, this totally discourages alt accounts, as the mountain is simply too steep to climb twice. Most other games eventually find shortcuts to get players into the endgame. Destiny 2 periodically offers gear sets that gets you near the new level cap, plus has recently allowed pretty much access to all activities from the start of the game, yet warframe still expects a new player to clear every single node of a gigantic starchart, to level up like 200 weapons for the mastery to have access to everything, to spend litterally months farming and waiting for long build times, to run everything a gazillion times due to low drop rates, farm millions to build a raijack, to max out all syndicates. Basically all that stuff we spent the last 7 years progressively doing, they have to rush through to catch up, with litterally zero catch up mechanics everywhere.
  • Since you're pushing new players away by being too grindy / innacessible , that leaves the vet. Granted, we have a bigger tolerance for grind for having gone through the motions so many times, but even us have our limits. I see tons of vets eventually giving up and quitting, tired of not having their time and efforts respected and of feeling like hampsters stuck in a grind wheel. And once the vets go, imho, the game is dead, since there will be nobody to explain and ease in noobs into the game. Just like you keep losing your streamers and youtubers as they get burned out or fed up with intense grind followed by burnout and content drought.
  • Adding more and more new systems, with their own grind, doesn't really work , especially when said systems are "islands" not really connected to the rest of the game. It just adds a whole new game worth of grind each time. Before , there was the grind for "warframe", but now there's the grind for cetus, the grind for fortuna, the grind for archwing, the grind for empyrian, the grind for operator focus and amps, the grind for syndicates, the grind for liches, the grind for kdrives, the seasonal nightwave grind, the new prime grind, and most of these systems are their own thing, with their own ressources, xp levels, etc.

My solutions :

  1. Dramatically increase the gear leveling progression. Since new players have 400+ items to build and max out for mastery, this would help them get a head start and catch up. Would also help vets, who would spent less time running Hydron over and over again every time a couple new weapons come out and more time playing actual content they enjoy. This also applies to focus. It's still to this day insulting that running a full mission with the best lens will net you like 2000 focus at best, forcing you to run eidolon nonstop or stealth farm to get a decent number to actually be able to afford abilities in the whopping five different trees.
  2. Adjust the prices and drop rates of many key components to make it less grindy. Nobody enjoys farming for resources or running the same mission over and over again, and any effort to make these grinds less tedious would immediately make the game more accessible for newcomers and veterans alike.
  3. Maybe reconsider the current starchart / solar rails progression system. It's quite the chore to complete all these nodes and objectives to get access to the whole starchart... And I really doesn't see what this adds to the game asides from ensuring new players cannot access the content that their veteran friends with them until they get babysitted to the end of starchart.
  4.  Build times also suck. You're constantly pushing players out of the game and forcing them to return at a later date, which might not be convenient to them. Like I have a whole weekend to play Warframe, I get this cool frame, yet I won't even be able to use it because it's cooking for 72 hours. You could probably divide the current build times by ten and you would only get a better game.
  5. Get rid of the 2% drop chances and work on more systems that reward guaranteed drops from tough missions. I should be getting that cool ephemera for staying longer than an hour on MOT, not by running the same easy mission 650 times till a RNG rare chest spawns that might contain a RNG drop that I need.

In the end, I feel that if you don't address the grind sooner than later, Warframe is not going to survive. New players won't stick around since the grind to catch up is too steep, while vets will progressively quit due to the sheer burnout of doing yet another 2% farm for weeks and not getting what they wanted. Nobody wins with grind in the long term.I would rather spend 20 hours of quality time with the game each update than spending 250 hours running the same booring mission over and over again and feeling like I never ever want to run said content afterwards (which is currently the case for sorties, arbitrations, defection, sanctuary onslaught, fortuna, cetus, eidolons, disruption, and now railjack).

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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1 hour ago, gluih said:

Just to the last point: I do think, that steve has an idea of what he wants the game to be like. I also think, that past decisions and the resulting player base don't fit that vision perfectly to say the least (with warframes being too op), but that's beside the point. I think we are slowly getting there and releasing railjack was one step along the way. You can argue if it was a good idea to have it sit in this state over the holidays, but they probably thought, that giving the players something to do and having a big announcement at the game awards was better than not releasing this.

Having a appetizer state of a new game mode can be nice, but only when some kind of finishing dish is present or if it has something more then just repeating the same thing 25+ times. Even in its broken state, they could of still made better decisions which unless they plan to replace some of those mission nodes with new game types in spring...well...

  1. They honestly should of had maybe only 4 nodes per planet, not 7-9, Then later add 1 to 3 nodes with different game modes for it over time. Since i do not think every one will want 3 more planets per faction with 28~ nodes `per faction`, which would at the very least include corpus then Sentients, with a big maybe on infested.
  2. As many have stated that i have seen, enemy scaling just goes way the fk crazy. Where i honestly feel like earth should of been between 10-30, saturn should of been 31-50 then veil could of been 51-70. Especially if each particular node is not dic`tated by loot pools, just by the `CHANCE` of certain nodes spawn, which if its NOT captain/galleon assassinate. They pretty much are the same kind of sub-objectives, just serving as a way to farm a particular resource that does not really get used that much. Plus that is not even accounting for the higher then average base stats compared to regular enemies, which makes it even more frustrating to manage enemies, unless you just run some thing that can just instant C.C. them or let you one shot them.
  3. Just the fact that neurodes, relics, ferrite, rubedo and even `regular` mods drop off of these railjack variant enemies and as reward table drops is a rather slight slap in the face, since you have to be a VERY considerably high player to be able to get some progress in railjack, where most of these loots you will have hundreds of the uncommon and likely millions of the more common ones, especially since the latter you likely dunked into making the ship, but will never have to use them again while `repairing` salvage or restocking ammo. Honestly, I feel like we should of had more dirac and railjack based resources in place and just replace any `trash mods` with dirac. Since we know how much people might create exploits if railjack type enemies could drop avionics `not` in space could be.
  4. Even the number of enemies basically doubling from the base is just plain ridiculous, it should of honestly been like maybe 20 fighters/1 crewship all on earth nodes with maybe the last 1 or 2 bumping to 30/2. Saturn could of been mostly 40/3 then bumping to 50/4 in its later nodes with Veil being 60/5 with it ending around 70/6 on the final veil nodes. The main reason why i say this logic, Is cause enemies scale in durability way too fast, fighters tend to be too fast without cheesie methods or absurd amounts of chasing just to shoot one or two down and most like missile volley & seeker missiles die off hard in the later saturn and veil nodes. Honestly would make me think veil should have LESS enemies, being the `elite of the elites` by having less of them but more chonky to kill. Plus lets not even get started on the artillery cannon could randomly decide it only `clipped` ships in earth and only took 20~50% of the health, despite directly being aimed at them, while on saturn/veil you better enjoy unloading 3 to 5 shots to down a single crewship. Plus lets not even forget outriders drop invincible bombs, elites and outriders are leagues more durable and crewships even with MKIII guns on earth, cannot be downed by anything except the cannon or blowing up the reactor, the later being the `usual` preferred method.

 

Giving something for the players is always nice but i would like to believe many would rather feel like they get to be REALLY op during the whole thing or have something great they can repeat on it (like maybe have particular end nodes on each planet could yield a VERY nice way to farm uncommon resources like argon crystals or something with useful value, especially to `end gamers`, since the whole system is clearly going to be a end-game like thing). So i still like to stand by the statement: I believe people would of rathered a release that drastically improved kuva liches over getting railjack in a broken mess early, such as maybe letting us have a kuva lich stay with us during an entire mission, less of the whole b.s. on us getting our back broken half a dozen times just to kill a single lich, plus maybe something as simple as a murmur combo multiplier of sorts to `maybe` speed up the tedious-ness we have on dealing with kuva lich farming. But especially slash down the time taken to `acquire` the mods to kill liches, by maybe making the R.Relics much easier to get and drastically boost void trace gain to fix both regular and Requeim relic opening grinding.

Edited by Avienas
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Welcome to the world the youtube "partners" wanted. Carrots on the stick all around..No actual,progress just more grind for things with random stats.  This plague of a problem is gonna drain the game harder then anything and If DE pushes too far in this path,they are gonna end up in a bad stop. You can't relay on time sink to save your game If people get too pissed off to play.

I played this game a lot and always held DE and warframe in high regards..But, Kuva liches and railjack (Specially liches and that rng on rng S#&$) made me take a step back from warframe. And I mind you I have made tons of those crappy build-a-weapons grinded up my rep with many factions, got both nightwaves to max and all itmes on them and  even did sorties all the time. But, the Lich and how I have to kill It made me not wanna play the game no more. And I have not after having to try and grind Requiem mods I went.."No,no point" and just overall stopped and uninstall the game. It's not about the gun..It is the fact It felt..like antiwarframe and more like a Chinese game with a gated boss which needs you to collect 20 some random bullS#&$ to beat or whatever. Basically, a damn chore. Which is what it was, I had to go to something away from my lich to even kill my lich..(Get requiem mods) and the reward is a some RNG destiny weapon..Which is how It is and how It is indeeded..To be a endless carrot  so Reaper or whatever Partner can have their carrot on a stick they want so #*!%ing bad..At the cost of any #*!%ing common sense...I can only imagine how many people summon a lich now and don't wanna play because of how #*!%ing busted this S#&$ is....This was not half #*!%ing baked...This was made raw as hell on purpose is what pisses me off. Cause,there is no way anyone could this oversight by mistake..everything was thought out.

Requiem mod charges

The requiem relics being a *@##$ to get.

The lich being a SOB to get his "tunes"

How It pays more to kill the lich then to spare em.

22 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

RNG = longer play times and to qoute DE Rebecca "warframe is a f2p game that survives on daily logins" , plus the lack of content allows RNG to artificialy extend its life span.

 

Yes,til people who buy plat start going away because they don't wanna play because of how fliping stupid this has gotten.

 

 

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If you make a free game effort-based, then good players who try hard can achieve what they want, and will have no need to spend money on the game. If you make a free game RNG-based, then it doesn't matter how good you are or how hard you try. The whole point is to make your hard work go to waste, thus making you so bored or so frustrated that you give up and spend money on the game.

Edited by (XB1)Erudite Prime
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1 hour ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

If you make a free game effort-based, then good players who try hard can achieve what they want, and will have no need to spend money on the game.

Nevertheless, people will spend money to support the development of the game because they like it.

 

Quote

If you make a free game RNG-based, then it doesn't matter how good you are or how hard you try. The whole point is to make your hard work go to waste, thus making you so bored or so frustrated that you give up and spend money on the game.

Or decide you'll no longer support the game.

 

Of course, I don't know how many players work this way. Maybe there are more of those who behave as you've described.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

If you make a free game effort-based, then good players who try hard can achieve what they want, and will have no need to spend money on the game. If you make a free game RNG-based, then it doesn't matter how good you are or how hard you try. The whole point is to make your hard work go to waste, thus making you so bored or so frustrated that you give up and spend money on the game.

The point is to get a proper balance between them. There is a reason why GACHA based games, especially mobile ones, put in pity based systems. So a person can get sxomething eventually within the banner period, then basically only got nothing but garbage crafting materials or `coin boxes` or useless weapons that are auto dumped to being salvages for coins or something.

D.E. AGAIN, forgot to put a tissue exchange system in with kuva liches, which before you say Trading, NO, that is not a solution, that is just a lazy side-track to `fix` the problem by having `millions` of hamsters run thru the same content then start crying for a better weapon from someone who had that better luck, but likely be forced to pay hundreds of plat, likely 500+ which is basically the price of 2 deluxe skin bundles usually or even just 3 deluxe skins. A True tissue system for kuva liches would be able to scrap duplicate kuva lich weapons and use the `parts` to give a small boost to the bonus multiplier, lets say between 3~9%. Which can be repeated until it reaches the max amount. People will still have to SPAM kuva liches alot, but they already have the incentive that even if they keep getting bad rolls for X kuva weapon, they will eventually reach the max tier.

Plus before you say this would `ruin` the kuva lich market, People could still pay for a high roll cause they are too impatient OR they could buy `scrap` liches, for cheap to get guranteed weapons to then turn into scrap, while also marketing the R.Mods and R.Relics woulds till exist.

 

In terms of railjack`s case, the cost should of been half or even 1/3rd what some of the costs were for all the part building, specifically titanium, which is not so easy to farm `common drop`, thru only some particularly hard to see `objects` in space. Since we all know how PAINFUL it is to spot small rectangular like cubes and rocks that are the same color as the other rocks in space just slightly glowing orange, Not freaking Blue or Green or surrounded by a good 2-3 meter aura, but freaking faint orange.

P.S. this is of course on the fact we not only have to deal with RNG-sus based values on the MKIII parts but also the 12 hour wait before each one is `ready`, yet again, sigma series straight up ignores that 12 hour wait when IT Should be the one that takes 12 hours and the repairing parts should be 1 hour or no wait at all, since its just repairing a freaking frame, not making it straight from a bp.

Rng CENTRIC games, only work when loot is given out VERY often and large variance exist and we can still scrap the trash good into a currency we might be able to use to exchange for better parts(Remember path of exile people?!!). The only thing scrapping `railjack parts` give at the moment is dirac, which actually has a HARD stop point after one has max all the grid slots, got the specific vidar/zekti avionics that are main-stay and no real need exists for it after that. Even being able to sacrifice 200 dirac to be able to roll a 1~3% boost to a railjack part`s variance stat bonus is currently sit at, would of been a more useful `endless` extender for the system. 

HONESTLY, i feel like all droppable railjack resources should be removed, except avionics and what we use to make ammo, Where we would mainly get the parts to build new railjack parts by scrapping wreckage from fighter ships, crew ships and sometimes breaking ships insides those optional objective areas (oh and obviously buff the rates of getting it). This would resolve the frustration i see on farming `railjack materials` by making it simple to know where to get the stuff you need to improve your ship and you do not need to spend 3 to 5 times longer in a mission just to scour for what could be between 1/20th to 1/5th of the resources you need to make a MKI or MKII part, even much longer if its a MKIII part.

 

Edited by Avienas
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On 2019-12-31 at 2:35 PM, ixidron92 said:

You think they are like rare mods? Name a single one that costs 500 platinum in the market like munitions vortex. Not even CO or maiming strike back then when they were ridiculously op.

Eh, i did sell maiming strikes for 500p each at one time. I'm not disagreeing with your post but those avionics will drop in price (most already have). The reactor grind is the real problem with the RJ progression system, imo. Reactor grind aside RJ progression > Kuva Lich progression by a thousand times.

Edited by Skaleek
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Honestly, I feel that RNG first became a major issue with riven mods. Its absurd that these mods can take hundreds of hours to get an ideal roll for, and that they frequently sell for thousands of plat. We should be able to spend a large amount of kuva to lock individual stats in for future rolls (say, 30k). This would still be grindy as all hell, but we would be less reliant on RNG, it would take some of the randomness/gambling out of rivens, and stabilize the market. Remember the S#&$-show that was the Riven Traders and their mass reporting of Semlar's Riven.Market app? Its these RNG heavy mechanics which create huge demand for perfect rivens, and allowed that stuff to happen. I believe that DE like mechanics like these because they feel expensive rivens drive the purchase of large amounts of plat.

IMO there wasn't enough criticism of DE for how random rivens are, and this emboldened them to add more randomness into the game (lich weapons and empyrean components). 

Edited by Valkyr-Umbra
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