Lich farming really isn't that hard

[thurmack]

1 minute ago, Paradoxity said:

So what changes between lich #1 and lich #100? What's the difference 'giving the system a chance' actually makes? Do liches significantly change in mechanics and rewards after the third or fourth or whatever and no one is talking about it at all? 

I can't help but notice you're avoiding answering the main question here. 

Pardon, I was addressing a side concern in this thread - I don't think it makes sense to advocate for people to make more uninformed contributions to discussions, or at least not to suggest that uninformed opinions should hold equal weight. Experience is not meaningless.

My opinion on the Kuva Lich system in general was stated alongside this one, in a different comment. To summarize I personally think the system is enjoyable and rewarding, generally speaking, but will likely prove less fun for people that either want the rewards quickly or want to get all of them (also in short order). I like the new weapons, I find the Liches can add some fun challenge when they are rank five and I encounter them while levelling my gear, and I like having Lich-influenced missions because they drop more affinity (nice for ranking warframes especially). I don't begrudge people for skipping the content of they don't enjoy it, but I think some.od the complaints ignore the pros of the new content while attacking relatively minute or subjective issues (like auto-deaths in a game that barely penalizes us for dying).

[Paradoxity]

Just now, thurmack said:

Pardon, I was addressing a side concern in this thread - I don't think it makes sense to advocate for people to make more uninformed contributions to discussions, or at least not to suggest that uninformed opinions should hold equal weight. Experience is not meaningless.

My opinion on the Kuva Lich system in general was stated alongside this one, in a different comment. To summarize I personally think the system is enjoyable and rewarding, generally speaking, but will likely prove less fun for people that either want the rewards quickly or want to get all of them (also in short order). I like the new weapons, I find the Liches can add some fun challenge when they are rank five and I encounter them while levelling my gear, and I like having Lich-influenced missions because they drop more affinity (nice for ranking warframes especially). I don't begrudge people for skipping the content of they don't enjoy it, but I think some.od the complaints ignore the pros of the new content while attacking relatively minute or subjective issues (like auto-deaths in a game that barely penalizes us for dying).

And you didn't answer. Again. What changes between the first lich kill and subsequent lich kills that means someone needs to do more than one in  order to level valid criticism of the system? 

[thurmack]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

And you didn't answer. Again. What changes between the first lich kill and subsequent lich kills that means someone needs to do more than one in  order to level valid criticism of the system? 

It wasn't clear that the main question, in your opinion, was your question and not the general question posed in this thread.

I wouldn't say that a person that has killed one Lich is necessarily uninformed. Someone that has killed maybe five, or ten, or a hundred would more likely have a better understanding of certain mechanical concepts, maybe have overcome challenges that a single-lich-killer didn't stick around long enough to master, etc but I personally wouldn't discount offhand the opinion of someone that killed a Lich and wanted to talk about what they liked or didn't like about the process.

My argument with Monkey was directly tied to his statements that an observer (a non-paticipant) can make educated critiques of a system in which they have not participated. His examples (motor sports and a sprint) both involved non-participants, not amateur participants.

[Paradoxity]

4 minutes ago, thurmack said:

It wasn't clear that the main question, in your opinion, was your question and not the general question posed in this thread.

I wouldn't say that a person that has killed one Lich is necessarily uninformed. Someone that has killed maybe five, or ten, or a hundred would more likely have a better understanding of certain mechanical concepts, maybe have overcome challenges that a single-lich-killer didn't stick around long enough to master, etc but I personally wouldn't discount offhand the opinion of someone that killed a Lich and wanted to talk about what they liked or didn't like about the process.

My argument with Monkey was directly tied to his statements that an observer (a non-paticipant) can make educated critiques of a system in which they have not participated. His examples (motor sports and a sprint) both involved non-participants, not amateur participants.

And he was talking with someone who indicated that more than one lich needed to be done in order to level valid criticism of the system. Or talking at may be more accurate. 

Also your analogy is flawed- people who don't engage with lich content aren't non-participants, because ultimately they play warframe as well, and have a perfectly valid basis for judging the content as unenjoyable because it introduces absolutely nothing new besides a slot machine instadeath mechanic. 

 

[lukasystem]

That's the big problem, it's hard and long for new players, and easy-boring and long for veteran players.... the murmurs and requiem mods are just a stupid tedious way of saying "no matter how godly OP you are, you're not killing this mofo until you guess his birthday", with a layer of RNG deciding whether you get the same horse crap over again, or just get something different and maybe, just maybe, one actual good weapon. The fact that there's a Kuva Kraken among them is insulting.

2 hours "give or take" doing the same content in such a vast game is not ok.

[thurmack]

17 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

And he was talking with someone who indicated that more than one lich needed to be done in order to level valid criticism of the system. Or talking at may be more accurate. 

Also your analogy is flawed- people who don't engage with lich content aren't non-participants, because ultimately they play warframe as well, and have a perfectly valid basis for judging the content as unenjoyable because it introduces absolutely nothing new besides a slot machine instadeath mechanic. 

 

As I noted to Monkey, I wouldn't have agreed with the effort to censor him. All of my statements have referred to his comment about non-participants - *HIS* examples were non-participants. Maybe my analogy seems flawed to you because you didn't bother to read it.

Addendum: it is somewhat apropos that you just accused me of making a flawed analogy that *someone else presented* given that I am arguing against the usefulness of opinions presented in ignorance. Read the words if you want people to take your criticism seriously.

Edited January 2, 2020 by thurmack
Added addendum

[thurmack]

16 minutes ago, lukasystem said:

That's the big problem, it's hard and long for new players, and easy-boring and long for veteran players.... the murmurs and requiem mods are just a stupid tedious way of saying "no matter how godly OP you are, you're not killing this mofo until you guess his birthday", with a layer of RNG deciding whether you get the same horse crap over again, or just get something different and maybe, just maybe, one actual good weapon. The fact that there's a Kuva Kraken among them is insulting.

Well, arguably there's a puzzle to the murmurs though I agree it's a little too rng for my tastes (there aught to be some way to sleuth out the three mods imo). At the very least you should get some feedback if you guess a correct word in the wrong location like every other peg/pattern game.

Pretty sure the Kuva kraken is decent.

Honestly though WF suffers from power creep, and introducing new weapons that aren't better than existing weapons will inevitably disappoint.

[(XBOX)Sumosan13]

Op.  Yeah, the Liches/Lich farming isn't hard (for most), more-so the feedback has been it's boring after a bit and too RNG heavy.

I'm on my 8th or 9th (I think) and just got my 3rd...3rd dupe, that's not fun and grinding through those is deflating...that's the hard part for me.

[ixidron92]

Yeah, doing nothing but that. Now, me, I do other things, I don't necesarilly play several hours a day and I don't smash my head against the wall continuously just to farm liches. So, it takes me about 2-3 days to kill a lich if I'm dedicated to it. So, 160-240 days, 5-8 months for 80 liches. I find it real funny when someone says "It's not that hard to do X". Well, actually, it's not that hard to do anything in this game. This game is moronproof. Everything is stupidly easy BUT requires TIME.

Some people might not have anything to do with their lives but to play for 6-8 hours a day, maybe more, every day, but that is not the norm. Most people will play 1-2 hours, maybe 3 and maybe not every single day. Do you think most people are willing to dedicate what little playtime they have to a single, repetitive task?

Edited January 2, 2020 by ixidron92

[ValinorAtani]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb thurmack:

especially don't get the complaints about how long it takes to get all the ephemeras. They're supposed to be rare cosmetics earned through grind. I'm not into the grind so I'm not bothering to collect them all, but if you want them then do the work. A trophy you get for just logging in is meaningless.

I remember the dev stream were they said Ephemeras wont be RNG, more like a Goal you can work to like a Achievement System. But hey probably they thought why should we let them have fun instead of making them suffer. Idk.

[thurmack]

Just now, ValinorAtani said:

I remember the dev stream were they said Ephemeras wont be RNG, more like a Goal you can work to like a Achievement System. But hey probably they thought why should we let them have fun instead of making them suffer. Idk.

I didn't see that devstream, but if they made that commitment then your critique is certainly valid and they should provide an explanation for their shift in course. Dropping ephemera pieces would align more closely with that promise.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

No, it's not that hard, but it's tedious and not very rewarding. The juice isn't worth the squeeze. Why do we have to do so much (farm the Relics, open the Relics, farm the Thralls, trial and error the Lich) just for another +25% Kuva Quartakk?

[darkbrick]

Il y a 3 heures, ValinorAtani a dit :

I remember the dev stream were they said Ephemeras wont be RNG, more like a Goal you can work to like a Achievement System. But hey probably they thought why should we let them have fun instead of making them suffer. Idk.

DE like to made us suffer. remember when nightwave survival was 1 hour?

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

Just got back into WF due to the lack of GOOD CONTENT. Only to find this system a total waste of time. PK right you want me to GRIND FOR HO
 and do silly stuff to trigger a mini boss. No thank you. Total waste of DE time and resources.

 What a joke.

[80think08]

The biggest difficulty with the Kuva Liches is having fun.

[DatDarkOne]

13 hours ago, thurmack said:

I don't get all the salt. Liches added higher level variants of existing content with some new mechanics, bossfights, with new rewards. At the very least they provide a nice alternative way to level warframes on high level content, and occasionally a level 5 Lich hits hard enough and spawn tough enough thralls to make for a bit of uncertainty that we'll take the mission (depending on what gear I and the squad brought in).

That (the higher level enemies) is the only part of the Kuva Lich system I like.  It's just ruined by RNG on top of RNG that's stacked on RNG to kill it that I find annoying as well as insulting.  What's the point of beating my Kuva Lich down just to have it kill me because of RNG.  

[Benour]

I realised this whole Lich mumbo-jumbo is just huge RNG grind poopfest after first cap (gave me 60% karak with IMPACT since there was no tutorial or ANYTHING how this progenitor stuff works and Grendel was new so i played grendel alot ofc...). So i just bought the weapons i wanted with plat. Got like 4 or 5 lich guns now with desired element on them and all are 55+%. Yeah it cost me some plat but i rather farm plat in fissures (and have FUN) than literally WASTING my time with this "content". And to be honest only weapon worth anything is Kuva Brakk that thing is awesome and Chakkhurr if you slap insane riven on it (and use it with gauss). Rest is just "meh" imo.

[Mr.Fluffins]

Liches are not hard to farm, they are annoying to farm:

1) Grind floods and siphons for requiems (with a guaranteed drop only during the flood) and hope RNG gives you the right types of requiem relics.

2) Grind T5 fissures and open requiem relics, and hope RNG gives you the right requiem mods.

3) Initiate a Lich, and hope RNG gives you a Lich with a weapon that you don't have and an elemental % modifier that is not complete trash (let's not even talk about ephemeras).

4) While on the last stages of Lich hunt, hope for the Lich to actually spawn for you to kill him (it does depend on his rage meter, but it is still RNG).

[Olphalarepth]

36 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Liches are not hard to farm, they are annoying to farm:

1) Grind floods and siphons for requiems (with a guaranteed drop only during the flood) and hope RNG gives you the right types of requiem relics.

2) Grind T5 fissures and open requiem relics, and hope RNG gives you the right requiem mods.

3) Initiate a Lich, and hope RNG gives you a Lich with a weapon that you don't have and an elemental % modifier that is not complete trash (let's not even talk about ephemeras).

4) While on the last stages of Lich hunt, hope for the Lich to actually spawn for you to kill him (it does depend on his rage meter, but it is still RNG).

5) Play the Cetus Roulette and get destroyed by the lich despite the fact you won

6) Pay the affinity tax for whatever exp you got up to that point in the mission (and once you finished cursing at the idiotic insta death mechanic this is the funniest part, guaranteed)

 

Whoever got to work on the old blood update had the chance to choose between long, senseless grind in the exact same way we did  HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of times and something new, maybe some ultra hard mission to present you something that could actually adapt to your fighting style with each defeat and they decided "you know what? Let's make em grind some more". Literally every single update in warframe translates in running the same mother freaking mission over and over again. Literal years of development to come up with a steaming pile of fecal matter like the kuva lich is disappointing beyond any possible way words can convey.

They pretty much had to chose between putting some effort to make an enemy unit that could "learn" and  counter the cheesy tactics we've been using for years or let us keep using the same cheesy tactics for years to come. Now we all know what is the priority for DE, whoever expected any better of them is a fool.

I'm not talking about development time but creativity, whatever well they drew creativity from has been drained and they are just reskinning stuff as they go.

 

"BUT Empyrean is the connective tissue that will link everything and it's so beautiful and magnificent because Steve told me so!". Yup, go grind in arsewing 2.0 advanced edition.

[Anthraxicus]

Exactly. It is not hard or challenging. It is just dumb and RNG driven.

[(PSN)thegarada]

Lich farming hard? No. Fun? #*!% no. Rewarding? Only for cosmetics (weapons are MR fodder).

It is recycled content, with no new mechanics full of RNG progress (never ever should progress be RNG). 

It needs major improvements to be at least palpable. Right now, it is not.

[Thando]

Rarely see anyone calling Kuva Lich hard. 

Tedious, buggy, badly implemented, a backwards step when it comes to UI design, disconnected from the rest of WF, annoyingly grindy and a far cry from what DE spoke so highly of when teasers started. 

All of that and more, but not hard. 

[Hypernaut1]

On one hand, I don't see what the fuss is all about, it's simply a high level grind. On the other hand, I wont mind if DE feels pressured to make liches better. 

Chances are they'll just water it down though so all the rewards are easy to earn. I seriously doubt liches are as important to overall game as the outrage makes it out to be. In a few months it'll be just another system that some players participate in or don't. I don't see DE beating themselves up over it. 

I personally have fun hunting my lich. I appreciate the higher levels. I like the finishers. I like seeing what kind of lich spawns. I also kind of like that I can just do it at my own pace. It's a gift and curse that it's not connected to rest of start chart. I don't stress about getting the most bestest awesome reward every time, so there's no real angst for me. It's just something to do. It's not broken. I can generate a lich, hunt it, kill it, get it's rewards. The lich player finishers seems to be the silliest complaint though. It's simply a fail state animation. I think it's one of the more interesting grinds DE has added to the game. Probably would've been loved a few years ago

Drama seems far-fetched. But like I said, I wont hate if DE does a few changes, but theyll probably just water down the RNG to make some people happy. 

I do think the system would've been better if the Lich became our own personal stalker though. With the current set up, its more me hunting the lich than the lich being a personal nemesis to me. That said, I think the forums would be in an even bigger uproar if liches came after us. I see why DE kept it seperate.

[DatDarkOne]

29 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Drama seems far-fetched. But like I said, I wont hate if DE does a few changes, but theyll probably just water down the RNG to make some people happy.

Honestly, it probably wouldn't piss me off as much if the Requiem Mods didn't have limited usage.  Not that I farm the weapons or ephemeras as I don't care about those.  I just would like for the process to not feel like a waste of time to do.  

[Traumtulpe]

On 2020-01-01 at 12:55 AM, FUBAR-BDHR said:

I can do one in about 2 hours give or take depending on if I get a lucky guess or not. So far I've defeated 80 of them.  That's right 80 liches.

Are you telling me you have spend 160 hours real time, just farming liches? Have you considered visiting a doctor?