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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


(PSN)Vexx757
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On 2020-01-02 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what crit damage mods you have equipped on your melee weapon, also headshots will do more damage.

Pseudoexalted abilities need to die. They are a problem that have been able to root for too long.
Exalted 1.0 weapons got changed, yet pseudoexalteds propagate the same problems:

-Limited loadout/mod selection to maximize

-Affected by Rivens (which DE stated abilities should NOT be)

 

The ability should be able to function consistently whether or not you have a melee equipped

 

On 2020-01-02 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

3rd Ability: Teleport

Not a fan of teleport, since 99% of the time I'm looking to kill with it; Ash was just made at a time when Warframe design was super simplistic and so Ash sorta inhereted Switch Teleport lite. Allowing players to teleport to objects just sounds like it's a set up for exploits or frustration. Fatal Teleport is a decent enough ability and could just use synergies to maximize its potential.

 

On 2020-01-02 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

On deactivation or when blade storm ends whole in the animation, Ash teleports back to the position where he activated it.

I find Blade Storm very disorienting and this would only exacerbate that for me.

There exists a delicate balance between old and new Blade storm that isn't "I pressed 4 time to sleep" nor "I pressed 4 please hold"

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Vexx-info:

NEWS

I was playing a syndicate mission and I discovered something that has changed with Ash after the last hotfix… the consistency of teleport opening enemies to finishers has increased. I went to do some testing, using teleport on the infested and corpus moas are consistent though I noticed that humanoid enemies are the only enemies that are experiencing the inconsistencies however it happens more often than it did before.

This is just a report of what I have found, it`s not 100% consistent but it is better than it was before, I don`t know what it’s like on PC but on the ps4 and assuming on Xbox this is the case. But don`t be satisfied with this still keep sending bug reports about it and the other issues he has.

Here is a reminder of the bugs he currently has.

On 2020-06-15 at 2:46 PM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·       (most recent) While using blade storm, pickups are attached to Ash`s body and get in the way visually.

·       (most recent) When bs ends, the camera is fixed in one place and doesn’t move with Ash.

·       Make Ash consistently be able to teleport in and out of the same grates/fan instead of just one direction.

·       Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Sometimes the visuals of the clones change from a hologram, original ash and ash prime look, make the “clones” look like whatever variant your using (like wukong`s 1st ability).

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleports him in a different location.

Links

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1171888-warframe-revised-bug-report-megathread-read-the-first-post/

https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/202940408-General-Game-Support-

https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/202940448-Technical-Support

 

Edited by (PS4)Vexx757
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Also an Ash main...But here's my issue with Ash... and before anyone else jumps in here trying to say there's nothing wrong with Ash, just stop!!!

And any of you can try this and try to explain to me why this is a thing...

  • Disarm Ash of his Melee weapon, leaving him only with either a Primary or Secondary, or even both.
  • Enter a mission or Sim.
  • Supply him some energy enough to perform a Blade Storm.
  • Mark available, or spawn some decent level enemies, then retrigger to execute Blade Storm (Enemies die... right? Good!) And what did he use to kill them? Ahhh.... Ole Ancient is on to something aye?
  • Next... Find or spawn an enemy and teleport to him to perform a stealth kill
  • When near, Perform the stealth kill maneuver. (The enemy dies right?)... Knowing what you're going to say, I'm going to have to say REVISIT ASH! 
  • Now equip the Fatal Teleport augment and resupply with enough energy to perform a Fatal teleport.
  • Find or spawn your victim and teleport to him to proc Fatal Teleport. (The enemy dies... right?)... Knowing what you're going to say, I'm going to have to say REVISIT ASH! Why did everyone ask for 'Broken Frame' when we already have one!?! (Two counting Chroma)

So you mean to tell me it makes sense that Ash can kill with his 'DE given' Arm Blades during a Blade Storm but not even realize he has them for the sake of a Fatal Teleport 😲😖😒?

THIS MAKES ZERO SENSE AND EQUATES TO BEING BROKEN!!!

Not only does this need to be corrected, but while doing so, I think those 'DE given' Arm Blades should be made Exalted Weapons, so that they can be modded to the point Fatal Teleport doesn't end up being as Non-Fatal as it is when he actually is armed with a Melee weapon!

While we're at it, we should address his shuriken, and make them Exalted as well; being moddable with secondary mods...

Ash's issue is that he's been nerfed in multiple ways, directly and indirectly! Fatal Teleport is now only really fatal to weaker enemies, while much higher level enemies can often scoff the attack off up to multiple times before dying by it!

Now, before anyone says it, what I'm talking about can currently be improved upon by first stripping enemies of their shields then performing the maneuver, and then there's the combo counter right?

Yes there are these aspects, but they are a great deal of heavy lifting, only to reach a 'kinda' comparatively decent killing place when considering the other frames that are simply more effective at it.

Ash and Mesa are very similar in the regard they need to essentially see what they're terminating. Does that mean I'm trying to bring Ash 'the easy button'? By no means, but I do want him better than what he is!

 

The question isn't whether Ash is good, the question is Ash in a good enough place in Warframe? I'm going to have to answer that with a yes, he's...OK to pretty good! But he's certainly in need of a good deal of improvement!

Of course there are many synergies that we can play around with to cause him to do some high level damage, but by the time we do the many things necessary to get him to that, the whole thing becomes more of a high chore than a "Fun and Enjoyable" experience.

I don't mind putting in effort, but I often see that I'm "trying" more than I would have to than if I were using frames that are simply more effective at killing than our so-call true assassin!

I'm just saying, in this regard, the Ash we have and the fear inducing "Bringer of Murder" talked up in the Laverian don't feel like the same person!

As far as Blade Storm goes, I can except the nerf brought to it, based on how insane it use to be, but at the same time the nerf went too far!

Perhaps this could be fixed by either speeding up the marking process, or making it so that when we make a single pass on an enemy, while spinning the camera, it applies the three marks close to instantly, if not simply made faster than current...Not quite sure but something needs to happen with it.

Maybe even made it so there isn't a retrigger required, but that the enemies we mark simply get attacked by the Ash clones?

Edited by (XB1)Ancient Weapon
Correcting complete thought in sentence
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On 2020-07-22 at 2:07 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I dont know how people can dislike the new non-plastic looks.

Perhaps we dislike it because, plastic or not, before this change our Warframes actually LOOKED CLEAN? 

Improved materials do not excuse the "better" textures being a filthy, scuffed-up mess.

This looks disgusting. If DE is trying to make the fleshy parts of frames look more organic, power to them; but they shouldn't do it by dinging up everyone's favorites. 

There are a dozen ways they could have de-plastic-ified us; this is shoving in their grime fetish for the sake of their grime fetish.

On 2020-07-20 at 3:49 PM, vFlitz said:

It's inconceivable for me that what he was before could ever be considered to be higher quality.

The textures need an update, it's true, but the look should be a sleek, vinyl-esque improvement.

This is not an improvement to something more sinuous and less plastic, it's a downgrade into moldering filthiness. DE smeared dirt over everything and scraped up our Warframes, and for fashion's sake, especially as their was no forewarning of this, we are rather ticked off.

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This post is great. I agree that Ash's 1 and 3 abilities are very underwhelming. His 2 is fine for me, but the stun portion never comes up as it is too unreliable. As for his 4 I personally preferred the old 4 to his new reworked one. This new 4 is super glitchy when combined with his 3 ability, and I basically only use it to build up combo counter with the augment. 

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On 2020-07-27 at 1:43 AM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Perhaps we dislike it because, plastic or not, before this change our Warframes actually LOOKED CLEAN? 

Improved materials do not excuse the "better" textures being a filthy, scuffed-up mess.

This looks disgusting. If DE is trying to make the fleshy parts of frames look more organic, power to them; but they shouldn't do it by dinging up everyone's favorites. 

There are a dozen ways they could have de-plastic-ified us; this is shoving in their grime fetish for the sake of their grime fetish.

 

The textures need an update, it's true, but the look should be a sleek, vinyl-esque improvement.

This is not an improvement to something more sinuous and less plastic, it's a downgrade into moldering filthiness. DE smeared dirt over everything and scraped up our Warframes, and for fashion's sake, especially as their was no forewarning of this, we are rather ticked off.

Thank you for saying this, to me I like the way it looked before I`d rather a shine "plastic" look than an old, dirty dusty look, either make i optional or CHANGE IT BACK. When it comes to Ash, this looks like a representation of how ppl put him on the shelf and that he is one of the lease use frame in 2018. 

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Vexx-info:

People say that the marking mechanic on Ash`s bs is good but in my opinion it doesn`t work in warframe because it`s slow and is tied to damage, now I`m going to make a comparison to what I saw in another game with this mechanic.

In the marvels avengers game, Thor has an ability in his skill tree called manual targeting. This ability makes you mark enemies damaging and knocking them down, even though obviously I haven`t played it but from seeing it, the marking mechanic works here.

 

Why does it work here?

·       Not only it does damage but it has cc by knocking enemies down which looks like the main part of the ability.

·       It`s not a horde game.

·       No npc will be strong enough to take you kills.

·       It`s not his ultimate ability.

·       This improves the utility of them hammer.

·       There are other abilities on his skill tree that can deal damage to enemies.

 

As you can see the marking mechanic works her because of the type of game it is, however in warframe the marking mechanic doesn’t work for an ability that is tied to damage and that`s why Ash`s bs needs a revisit.

Edited by (PS4)Vexx757
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Ash definitely needs some love. I love his concept but I can't play anything besides a build based on his 1. His 2 lasts a very small amount of time, his 3 is situational, his 4 is only usable when soloing and, even so, it's faster to just use my melee weapon.

I have no major troubles personally with any of his skills BESIDES his 4, I can tolerate the ups and downs, but that's an opinion coming from someone who just doesn't play him as much. His 4 feels slow, works slow and I would honestly just prefer DE to simply take it out and replace it with 4 teleporting ninjas that would just go anywhere and DPS enemies around the field - basically the Ember treatment, just press the button and it works itself out.

I'm fine with skills that you actually have to aim but having to aim, wait for the tag to appear and then pressing the button means someone already killed it and I'm basically wasting my time while using said skill. At the end of the day I feel like I contribute nothing to a squad if I focus on his 4th ability.

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On 2020-07-27 at 11:40 AM, yrf8isdeth said:

This post is great. I agree that Ash's 1 and 3 abilities are very underwhelming. His 2 is fine for me, but the stun portion never comes up as it is too unreliable. As for his 4 I personally preferred the old 4 to his new reworked one. This new 4 is super glitchy when combined with his 3 ability, and I basically only use it to build up combo counter with the augment. 

When Ash was reworked he lost covert lethality+life life strike+teleport, so no more full heal's from channeled teleport.  He lost I-frames on bladestorm so no more full shields with fortitude on a blade storm.  The 4 skill can do tons of damage true, but really you can't because you are dead or running for your life by the time it builds up.  Smoke is nearly useless with all the skill cancelling mobs added to the game lately and bladestorm is so glitchy it only hits maybe 1 in 4-5 things that get marked anyways if not hosting.  At 1400 health trying to do all but the most basic content is out of the question with ash.  I'm with Wolfdoggie, the ash rework caused me to quit the game it was just that out of touch with how we played.

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Vexx-info:

If anyone was watching the community art show on tennocon, you would have noticed a Ash art submission.

 

de2k6r3-a7579079-0545-4229-8229-3e3095cdd270.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvODVjZDhkNGEtMjc1My00YzEwLThiY2MtZTIwYzFkZDVmYWQ4XC9kZTJrNnIzLWE3NTc5MDc5LTA1NDUtNDIyOS04MjI5LTNlMzA5NWNkZDI3MC5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.yYLg98IMgqobmC_Rl9hXhiYSxzszWHHCXpM089C3usY

 

As you can see, the picture is of Ash leaping in-between corpus sky scrapers with his hidden blades out, this person was inspired by the pose Dante makes in the first reboot DmC trailer back in 2013 and thought it would be a perfect pose for Ash to be in and decides to use it for Ash.

I know this… because I am the one who made it! I hope you like it.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I am the one who made it! I hope you like it.

Nice work.

Speaking of Tennocon, and changes to Ash: With Ash in his current state, would you replace one of his abilities with Helminth? If so, which ability would you put in its place? (ability choices to replace with are still speculative, but confirmed to not be signature or ultimate abilities)

Do you think the choice you make will be much of an improvement to hit kit overall or would it be just to change things up?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Nice work.

Speaking of Tennocon, and changes to Ash: With Ash in his current state, would you replace one of his abilities with Helminth? If so, which ability would you put in its place? (ability choices to replace with are still speculative, but confirmed to not be signature or ultimate abilities)

Do you think the choice you make will be much of an improvement to hit kit overall or would it be just to change things up?

Actually, I'd like to take a jab at those questions!

First, a little disclaimer: While I don't really "main" any Warframe, Ash is still the closest one I'd consider to being my main, as he has quite a lot more playtime than the others.

And I actually find it hard to find an abilitiy to replace, at least outright.

  • Shuriken, while weaker than Bladestorm in direct damage, it has the laziness aspect with its homing projectiles, and with the augment (which I almost always run with), it can be a faster killing tool on higher levels, since invisibility + melee + armorstrip is potent, to say the least
  • Smoke Screen is the bread and butter survival skill on him. Absolute no-go to remove, it's too good (I always laugh at people saying Smoke Screen is weak, because "it isn't as good as Loki's Invisibility" - well, while it's shorterlasting, it's also cheaper (almost proportionally the same) and has a radial stun. I actually find it generally BETTER than Loki's invis for general purposes)
    • Just for some math on what I mean by proportionallty similar energycosts:
      • Smoke Screen is 35 energy for 8 second (base) duration. That's 4,375 energy per second of invisibility
      • Invisibility is 50 energy for 12 second (base) duration. That's ~4,167 energy per second of invisibility. Slightly cheaper, but not by much.
  • Teleport can kill off a very sturdy enemy very quickly with a finisher. It's slow, and it's situational, but it's something. Also, it is a (somewhat meager) traversal tool, perfect for when feeling lazy, which I often do, hehe
  • Bladestorm, while a hassle to use, is still a strong "swipe a crowd" tool for when I don't feel like aiming my guns or getting close to melee. So it has its uses.

To me, Ash's abilities all have potential to stay put on him - even moreso if they got some polish, so that each ability has a bit more clear function (as the damage overlap between Shuriken/Teleport/Bladestorm is problematic design-wise).

For now my answer is probably that I don't have any plans to swap out an ability on him - aside from testing around of course. Who knows, I might end up maybe tossing out Shuriken or Teleport, no idea. But it's not like how I'm eager to swap out abilities on other Warframes (like Antimatter Drop on Nova - good ability, but too much of a hassle for me. Larva (if that is what Nidus provides), on the other hand...)

Edited by Azamagon
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8 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Shuriken, while weaker than Bladestorm in direct damage, it has the laziness aspect with its homing projectiles, and with the augment (which I almost always run with), it can be a faster killing tool on higher levels, since invisibility + melee + armorstrip is potent, to say the least

I was using the augment for a while, but since I don't use Shuriken enough these days I swapped out for Smoke Screen augment for more team utility since I use it far more. If I swap anything out, it will be this ability.

Potential replacement option-

  • Might put in something like Slash Dash since it benefits from his melee mods, and combo counter (which i can rack up super fast with Blade Storm's augment, plus Naramon) so this would provide fast burst damage in small groups while Blade Storm is taking out another group.
  • Khora's Ensare or Nidus's Larva to group enemies together for easier Blade Storm marking lol.
  • Slight of Hand could be cool, conceptually, as ninja booby traps, and add some versatility.
  • Psychic Bolts would almost be a direct upgrade since it would affect more targets and strip armor and shields without an augment(with an added bonus of stun if you use its augment instead) and slowing infested and disabling their aura. Dang...this might actually be my top choice.
  • Mag's Pull would've seemed like a melee frame's best friend if it actually pulled enemies to you instead of flinging them to Lua, so this is more of an honorable mention than an actual consideration.
35 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Smoke Screen is the bread and butter survival skill on him. Absolute no-go to remove, it's too good (I always laugh at people saying Smoke Screen is weak, because "it isn't as good as Loki's Invisibility" - well, while it's shorterlasting, it's also cheaper (almost proportionally the same) and has a radial stun. I actually find it generally BETTER than Loki's invis for general purposes)

  • Just for some math on what I mean by proportionallty similar energycosts:
    • Smoke Screen is 35 energy for 8 second (base) duration. That's 4,375 energy per second of invisibility
    • Invisibility is 50 energy for 12 second (base) duration. That's ~4,167 energy per second of invisibility. Slightly cheaper, but not by much.

 

I agree. Back in my noob days I was jealous of the duration of Invisibility, but honestly it's unnecessary since Ash is also useful when not invisible. I wouldn't get rid of this.

36 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Teleport can kill of a very sturdy enemy very quickly with a finisher. It's slow, and it's situational, but it's something. Also, it is a (somewhat meager) traversal tool, perfect for when feeling lazy, which I often do, hehe

I love this for long range mobility and assassinating durable targets so I would keep this for sure. It's the ability that originally drew me to Ash in the first place, who's my top used frame.

37 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Bladestorm, while a hassle to use, is still a strong "swipe a crowd" tool for when I don't feel like aiming my guns or getting close to melee. So it has its uses.

It definitely needs QoL, badly, but I am definitely against the masses in their hatred of Blade Storm. My damage, even compared to nuke frames, went way up after that rework since I mark half the room quickly then kill the other half myself allowing for much more dps than he could ever do before. Granted, I've been playing him since Blade Storm was doing Slash damage instead of True so I can definitely say I've lived through worse. lol

39 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

To me, Ash's abilities all have potential to stay put on him - even moreso if they got some polish, so that each ability has a bit more clear function (as the damage overlap between Shuriken/Teleport/Bladestorm is problematic design-wise).

For now my answer is probably that I don't have any plans to swap out an ability on him - aside from testing around of course. Who knows, I might end up maybe tossing out Shuriken or Teleport, no idea. But it's not like how I'm eager to swap out abilities on other Warframes (like Antimatter Drop on Nova - good ability, but too much of a hassle for me. Larva (if that is what Nidus provides), on the other hand...)

All of his abilities do need some polish, but not a full rework that a lot of people want. The only one I think needs a new function or to be replaced is Shuriken. Until that distant day arrives that they look at Ash again, I'll keep thinking up replacements to substitute in place of it. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

1) I was using the augment for a while, but since I don't use Shuriken enough these days I swapped out for Smoke Screen augment for more team utility since I use it far more. If I swap anything out, it will be this ability.

Potential replacement option-

  • Might put in something like Slash Dash since it benefits from his melee mods, and combo counter (which i can rack up super fast with Blade Storm's augment, plus Naramon) so this would provide fast burst damage in small groups while Blade Storm is taking out another group.
  • Khora's Ensare or Nidus's Larva to group enemies together for easier Blade Storm marking lol.
  • Slight of Hand could be cool, conceptually, as ninja booby traps, and add some versatility.
  • Psychic Bolts would almost be a direct upgrade since it would affect more targets and strip armor and shields without an augment(with an added bonus of stun if you use its augment instead) and slowing infested and disabling their aura. Dang...this might actually be my top choice.
  • Mag's Pull would've seemed like a melee frame's best friend if it actually pulled enemies to you instead of flinging them to Lua, so this is more of an honorable mention than an actual consideration.

2) I agree. Back in my noob days I was jealous of the duration of Invisibility, but honestly it's unnecessary since Ash is also useful when not invisible. I wouldn't get rid of this.

3) I love this for long range mobility and assassinating durable targets so I would keep this for sure. It's the ability that originally drew me to Ash in the first place, who's my top used frame.

4) It definitely needs QoL, badly, but I am definitely against the masses in their hatred of Blade Storm. My damage, even compared to nuke frames, went way up after that rework since I mark half the room quickly then kill the other half myself allowing for much more dps than he could ever do before. Granted, I've been playing him since Blade Storm was doing Slash damage instead of True so I can definitely say I've lived through worse. lol

5) All of his abilities do need some polish, but not a full rework that a lot of people want. The only one I think needs a new function or to be replaced is Shuriken. Until that distant day arrives that they look at Ash again, I'll keep thinking up replacements to substitute in place of it. 

1) Oof, you pointing out Psychic Bolts (is that ability confirmed btw?) is making me rethink my position! Only upside of Shuriken is the low level damage laziness, and that it can affect as many enemies you have time to spam into at once (unlike Psychc Bolts). But still, yeah Psychic Bolts (and Larva, yumyum). Those would be really enticing choices (if they ARE the abilities you can get, that is).

2) I mean, I'm not against distinguishing them better (like leaving an actual smoke screen behind and whatnot), but it's also not NEARLY as bad as people make it out to be. In fact, it might be the reason why he's stuck around as my main - invisibility is just amazing, now being onehanded these days makes that even better.

3) It's not my main draw/appeal of Ash, but I can see you point.

4) *High five*
Yeah, calling it BAD is ridiculous. Clunky, sure, but not bad. And how you're using it, well that's how I often use it too. And yeah, I've been here since the earlier days (since somewhere in update 7, I think), his current version is arguably the best one still - even if the previous one might've been better for AoE, the current one's freedom is nice. Finding a middleground would be nice though.

5) Yup. Something I've been pondering, which has upsides and downsides to their changes is a rework like this:

Shuriken

  • Now is the tool which opens enemies up for finishers, otherwise stays the same
  • Upside: Shuriken finds a niche, and has some fittingness to it (if you consider IRL ninja-lore of how Shurikens were used mostly as disabling tools).
  • Downsides: Well, those are plenty. You can't do a stealthy finisher like this (since the Shuriken deals damage - although it could have that added to it as a utility, that as long as they are still in the "stunned" state, they are finishable in a stealthy state). Its augment would arguably feel a bit more on the redundant side for melee stuff (aside from finisher-immune enemies with armor).

Teleport

  • Now is freeaim, but with a very brief cooldown (or at least freeaim if holding the button down for half a second). Teleporting to walls makes you autocling to them for a brief moment. No longer opens up enemies for finishers, but does X thing instead (One idea for that is to give him very brief invisibility, like just 1 second or so, and which pauses the invisibility of Smoke Screen, allowing you to extend Smoke Screen's duration by Teleporting around. But that's just very "placeholdery" anyway)
  • Augment:
  • Upside: A very swift mobility tool that is easy to use for traversal, and with the wallclinging-feature it would feel particularly ninja.
  • Downside: Moving up to an enemy, and opening to finishers goes so well together, so that synergy would be lost.

Bladestorm

  • Orient it more towards a quick masskiller tool. For example:
  • Set energycost (like the typical 100 energy)
  • Can move while casting, but interrupts reloading etc (casting animation could just be a cliché "jutsu" handsign of some kind)
  • Upon casting, all enemies in a rather wide and far cone are instantly marked, and the 2 clones immediately start attacking the marked targets.
    • Alternatively, it could cast this marking zone in an area around him. While it might be very "samey" as other masskiller abilities, it actually has some nice things going for it with that:
      • It encourages Ash to enter the fray, which is something you can do easily with Teleport (for moving in) and Smoke Screen (for getting in more safely)
      • It also has less corner-play-cowardness to it than the conecast (i.e. sitting and spamming an ability in a corner with a melee weapon out to autoparry all attacks while just spamming the ability in the general direction for slaughter).
  • Hold the castbutton (either upon the initial casting, or midduration when the clones are already out) for Ash to join in as a 3rd assassin.
  • Cannot recast it until it has finished (so you have to aim wisely for optimal useage)

Smoke Screen

  • Same as now, but also:
  • Also briefly leaves a smoke screen behind on cast. This blocks enemies line of sight outside the cloud, and greatly limits the vision range of enemies who are inside the cloud. Ash himself can refresh his invisibility duration by running into the cloud again (might need to raise the energycost to 50 for these buffs)
  • Augment: Any time an ally (including NPCs like the Defense targets etc) passes through the cloud, they gain invisibility for X seconds (massive QoL for this augment).

TL;DR

  • Shuriken is now the finisher-opening tool (Giving it the singular target(s) damage ability)
  • Smoke Screen gets some slight utility (Remains the main survival ability)
  • Teleport is now more focused on mobility, with freeaim useage (Making its niche the mobility ability - and maybe something else too, but preferably NOT about finishers)
  • Bladestorm becomes faster at masskilling (Consolidating its role as the multitarget killer ability)

What do you think about that angle?

Edited by Azamagon
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28 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

) Oof, you pointing out Psychic Bolts (is that ability confirmed btw) is making me rethink my position! Only upside of Shuriken is the low level damage laziness, and that it can affect as many enemies you have time to spam into at once (unlike Psychc Bolts). But still, yeah Psychic Bolts (and Larva, yumyum). Those would be really enticing choices (if they ARE the abilities you can get, that is).

Not confirmed, but unless they're letting it slide her Mind Control and Chaos are very signature moves for her so they aren't eligible. 😄

I do like the rework suggestions, but i am worried about it becoming spam stormy again. If it's an instant cast around him though, it still wouldn't be as bad as the old days. 

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Not confirmed, but unless they're letting it slide her Mind Control and Chaos are very signature moves for her so they aren't eligible. 😄

I do like the rework suggestions, but i am worried about it becoming spam stormy again. If it's an instant cast around him though, it still wouldn't be as bad as the old days. 

Yeah, Psychic Bolts is the most likely choice, but you never know. Same with Larva for Nidus. I REALLY hope it's Larva (If so, I'm likely to put Larva on SO many of the frames haha!)

I think the cast around him would be healthier too (just realized that it would distinguish Shuriken vs Bladestorm further as well, as range vs AoE - all utilities aside). To reduce some of the spamstorm, I think a nerf to max 12 targets could help reign it in. That means he is likely to have to do some manual work in the meantime.

EDIT: Another way to make it more varied is to give it a resource-management kind of thing. Like, he needs to have "Deathmarks" to actually be able to mark enemies with Bladestorm. He could regenerate a Deathmark every 2 seconds, and/or a Deathmark every time he kills someone from a non-Bladestorm source. That way Bladestorm can remain very potent and retain up to 18 mark-targets; you'll need to gain those 18 Deathmarks though. And with that you'll only spend as many Deathmarks as enemies you have targetted. But you'll still want to save up and gather a reasonable amount of Deathmarks, as the ability still costs 100 energy to use.

Note that I would still suggest to make it as a cast around him with that addition.

EDIT 2: Hey, this leaves more room for improvement with Shuriken/Teleport. Move back Teleport to have the finisher aspect (maybe), and give Shuriken the ability to premark enemies for early Deathmarks or something along those lines. Yeah, it's a very "Nidusy" rework, but it could work.

Edited by Azamagon
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6 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Yeah, Psychic Bolts is the most likely choice, but you never know. Same with Larva for Nidus. I REALLY hope it's Larva (If so, I'm likely to put Larva on SO many of the frames haha!)

I think the cast around him would be healthier too (just realized that it would distinguish Shuriken vs Bladestorm further as well, as range vs AoE - all utilities aside). To reduce some of the spamstorm, I think a nerf to max 12 targets could help reign it in. That means he is likely to have to do some manual work in the meantime.

True, putting him in the fray is better, and teleport will still help him get in there. Triple mark by default would also be nice. 

And if it's instant tap instead of channeled then he can still move on to attack more targets while the clones are still busy. 

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On 2020-08-03 at 9:14 PM, Azamagon said:

Alternatively, it could cast this marking zone in an area around him. While it might be very "samey" as other masskiller abilities, it actually has some nice things going for it with that

This sounds like my idea of bs except the radius is around Ash instead, If that`s so then I like this idea. It still has instant activation and it makes you find enemies by either running to them or teleporting to them which makes teleport a quicker and optional use unfortunately it takes the stealth aspect of hiding in the shadows, stealthy assassinate a group of enemies and then hide back into the shadows again. Still if this is what you meant then this is by far one of the best bladestorm idea options I`ve seen, it`s simple and it works.

 

Btw what do you think of my revisit to Ash?

Edited by (PS4)Vexx757
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6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

This sounds like my idea of bs except the radius is around Ash instead, If that`s so then I like this idea. It still has instant activation and it makes you find enemies by either running to them or teleporting to them which makes teleport a quicker and optional use unfortunately it takes the stealth aspect of hiding in the shadows, stealthy assassinate a group of enemies and then hide back into the shadows again. Still if this is what you meant then this is by far one of the best bladestorm idea options I`ve seen, it`s simple and it works.

 

Btw what do you think of my revisit to Ash?

Yes, somewhat similar. In short, yours is more akin to previous Bladestom (i.e. target an enemy, and it will mark that target and targets around that primary one), mine is more like the basic AoE cast (like Avalance, Rhino Stomp etc).

As much as I'd love something like the old Bladestorm, it was changed for a reason. It was a very lowrisk, longrange mass-slaughter tool. Needing to get into the fray (as my suggested version requires) adds a bit of risk, which I think could make it more reasonable, considering its potency. And, as I said to Ozymandias, it helps differentiate Shuriken and Bladestorm a bit (longrange tool vs point blank AoE).

As for your revisit, I'll respond to you later about that (sorry, don't have time for that right now), and I'll make sure to make it a thorough response! A shorthand answer: Most of it looks great, just needing some quirks worked out a bit! 🙂

 

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On 2020-08-03 at 6:32 PM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

-snip-

If I were you use this feature, it would be for funs sake nothing serious. To me replacing a warframes ability with another (weather good or bad) imo kind of takes away the frame`s identity plus I might get too attached to the change and I don`t want that.

Ok lets just say that you could trade any ability, I would take out bs and put exalted blade on Ash, to me it would be sick to have a ninja to have a red energy coloured sword slashing enemies in his way but other than that I won` do anything else Ash`s ability concepts are solid they just need to be effective in solo and public play hence this post.

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