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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


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While there is some excellent feedback in this thread, the thread was only being kept alive by repeated bumping--behavior which is not something we condone on these forums.

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Vexx-info:

Just to let you guys know, for all you ninja fans I will soon create my own version of a ninja frame where the abilities are simple on the surface but is mechanically unique and plays differently to Ash. I will let you guys know when I have posted it (probably next week on the general forum) and you can go there and let me know what you think.

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As promised, here's the thorough review:

All abilities castable on zipline - Yes, as should most abilities (but in Ash's case, none of them make sense to be restricted)

Shuriken:

1) One hit kill = Stealth kill - Agreed on this. I would even go further and say: If Shuriken's current bleed damage is enough to kill them, all the bleed damage is done instantly (and this can contribute to its stealthy kills too). This "bleed-burst" can occur retroactively too, making it a nice "sudden death" kind of buffer you add on to enemies, if you attack them quickly that is. It would tie into his bleed-passive really nicely as well.

It could potentially cause the same bleed-burst effect for Bladestorm's bleed, (or ANY bleed?) if Shuriken's bleed is on the enemy. That'd really give Shuriken a nice feature on it that goes a long way to making it have useful utility, both in early game and lategame.

2) Holdcast = I'd simplify it greatly: Just make it throw your shuriken(s) straight forward. Aside from extra flightspeed, I'd say no other extra bonuses to it. No crits or stuff like that, the ability to use it how you want (and go for manual headshots) is more than enough, imo.

3) Slowdown based on enemy's healthloss = I like it! Good mid/lategame utility.

4) Combo bonus = Nah, I would say that's unnecessary.
 

Smoke Screen:

1) Cast stun buffed to 4 seconds - Imo, not necessary (besides, to be nitpicky and technical, it's not really a stun, it's a stagger - the game is really unclear in regards to the various CC-types in the game, so it's totally understandable) The brief stun is enough to make it the (imo) best "into the fray" stealth ability in the game

2) Lingering smoke cloud - Yes, a lingering smoke cloud with some nice effects on it would be swell. Often suggested, since it makes so much sense. However, I don't agreed with the stun and damage-amp (already getting stealth-melee-bonus, no need to make his defensive tool further offensive), I think it should have these effects:

  • Enemies outside of the cloud cannot see past it, they have to get inside
  • Enemies can only see (with limitted range) stuff which is inside the cloud, when they are inside the cloud themselves
  • Enemies struck by the initial stun and enemies who remain inside the cloud have massively reduced accuracy (and maybe a SLIGHT slowdown effect?). This debuff only lasts a few seconds (like 3 or so - but is moddable with Duration), but is refreshed every second an enemy is inside the cloud.
  • Same as you suggested, Ash's stealth-duration does not drop until he leaves the cloud.

3) Ally visuals when they're inside the cloud - Yeah, this would be needed

4) Removed muffled sound - Yes please!

5) Ash stealthed = Bladestorm clones stealthed - This just makes sense, yes please!


Teleport:

1) Holdcast = indicator - Eh, I feel that's nice, but not enough. I'd prefer the holdcast to be a freeaim teleportation, where he teleports forward as far as its range allows him (or, onto the surface/target he is aiming at, ofc)

2) Wallhand teleport - Well, just to point something out here: This would only make sense if you said that could teleport to walls (which, btw, freeaim teleportation would allow him to). You only mentioned that he can teleport to anything scannable, and walls aren't scannable, hehe. But yes, teleporting to walls to wallcling for a short duration is a clear yes in my book!

3) Teleport through windows - Yeah, makes sense.

4) Teleport to enemies midair = Yes, I don't understand why this doesn't work. As for the "melee after keeps him in the air", well, that should be manually doable if you could aimglide anytime during/after the cast.

5) Enemy under a stun, they can still be opened up for a finisher - This is a major gripe I have with opening to finishers in general. And the problem lays in the mechanics of CC and such. I think a way to make this work could be that whenever you do a "finisher-opening stun" (not just with Teleport), that this should cause a visual DEBUFF on them (think like a status-proc), which lasts for a few seconds. Something like how the Parazon works, you know? I think could go a long way to fix the frontal/rear finisher issue overall.

6) Teleport to allies through walls if you see them - Yes please.

7) Dargyn finisher - Hah, yes, that would be cool!

8-) Teleport to enemy behind cover =  teleport behind, not above - Urgh, yes please. Quite annoying how it is at the moment.

9) Front finishers on moas and infested enemies - Oof, you're reminding me of this MASSIVE melee document I'm doing at the moment: Many enemies don't have certain finishers allowed onto them, but this depends not only on the enemy-type, it also depends on the WEAPON (because they exist on some enemies for some weapons!). Honestly, I can't believe DE have gone up to a Melee 3.0, yet melee is VERY, VERY INCOMPLETE! That document is coming soon - if you're interested I'll tag you for it if you want?

 

Bladestorm:

First of all, I agreed with basicly all of the issues you have listed. However, the desecration issue though, that's incorrect - the bodies are still "there", just invisible. Many people miss this though.

As for the fixes:

1) Cast = Instant activation - Yes, I can agreed with this. The swiping marking mechanic is just nauseous, as you already pointed out. So, instant cast for effect is great

2) Tap = Send you and clones (+tap again to leave). Hold = Only clones - I would reverse this, personally (Tap = Clones only. Hold = Ash+Clones, or if you wanna join your clones midcast). Ash joining in is more niched than using clones only.

3) Marked enemies can be killed by others - Not sure about this, that caused a LOT of issues with Ash falling through the world when this was allowed (if I'm recalling correctly). If it can be done without bugs, then sure.

4) No limit to how many enemies he can kill within the 20m radius of the enemy he`s aiming at - Ummm, no. That's overpowering the ability, imo. In fact, (as I've mentioned early) keeping it as a ranged ability while making it instant cast as well... that's a recipe for spamming overpoweredness. Imo, it should be a radial cast (like Avalanche, Rhino Stomp etc), with limitted targets affectable (prioritizing the closest ones first), due to the strength of the ability.

5) On deactivation / ending, Ash teleports back to his original position - Yes! I dunno why this was changed in the first place, it's really disorienting.

6) Smoke Screen + Bladestorm = Enemies unable to detect Ash or enemies killed when in close proximity - Yeah, that'd be neat.

7) Sentinel + Vaccuumed loot visually disappears during the effect - Yes please, it's quite some obscuration with how it is at the moment.

8-) Indicator showing number of enemies affected - Agreed. Wether your suggestion (casting on a target and affects it and enemies near the first one) or mine (casting marks enemies nearby Ash), showing number of enemies, rather than number of marks, is more informative, no doubt!

9) Sliding before activating will increase the animation and clones` attack speed by 20% - No. Just... why? That's so incredibly random

 

Synergies:

1) If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear - I guess? Do you mean KILLING with abilities, or it just makes old corpses go "poof" when you cast? Care to explain?

2) The energy cost will also be cut down by half - No. That's the forced kind of synergy I hate.

3) If you teleport to an enemy while you are invisible you will stun enemies around you and increase the smoke cloud duration to 15 seconds - No. That's very forced synergy, I don't like it at all, sorry.

4) Shuriken shows enemy health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks - This one I kinda like, but you don't need to make this a synergy, just expand it as an effect of Shuriken, like this -> Shuriken shows the silhouette of affected enemies through walls + Teleport is allowed to teleport to any target you can see through walls. Then it's just a natural synergy between the two abilities.

5) Shuriken + Blade Storm damage synergy - As you suggested it, no thanks. That's too forced for my taste. What I suggested on Shuriken (i.e. when Shuriken is affecting an enemy, bleeding effects (or at least Shuriken's and Bladestorm's) will instantly deal all of their remaining damage if it's enough to kill the enemy) gives them a more natural damage-esque synergy without amping their actual damage.

 

------------------------------------------

There ya go!
I'd actually like to show my list of changes I'd like to see to his skills (some of which are the same as yours):

Shuriken

  • Slows enemies based on their healthstate
  • Shows enemy silhouettes through walls
  • Will deal its bleeddamage instantly to enemies, whenever the remaining bleeddamage is enough to kill them. If Shuriken is active on an enemy, it could (at least) also extend this bleed-burst to Bladestorm too (ANY slash would likely be too strong)!
  • Killing with Shuriken is considered a stealthkill (including with the bleed-burst if that occurs on the initial hit)
  • Augment: Can also remove shields if the enemy has no armor (this should be a thing for all armor-removal augments etc, imo)

Smoke Screen

  • Enemies staggered by the initial cast receive a debuff which grealty reduces their accuracy, and slightly reduces their movement speed (NOT their attackspeed) for 3 or so seconds. Accuracy/slowdown is moddable with Strength mods (and they have pretty early caps), debuff duration is affected by Duration mods.
  • Casting the ability midduration causes Ash to leave invisibility, but this allows him to recast the ability right afterwards
  • Leaves a cloud behind on cast. This cloud has the following properties:
    • Max 3 clouds can exist at a time (if there's two different Ash players, they can have 3 each, just to clarify)
    • Enemies cannot see past the cloud if they are outside of it.
    • Enemies inside the cloud have very limitted vision range, and are continously having the accuracy/slowdown debuff reapplied to them.
    • Ash's stealth duration doesn't start ticking down off until he leaves the cloud. Can be paused by reenterring.
    • Cloud lasts 6 seconds at base (moddable with Duration)
  • Energycost increased to 50, due to the added cloud and its extra effects
  • Augment: Now applies the stealth to allies if they are within the initial cast range OR if they walk into the lingering smoke cloud (massive QoL).

Teleport

  • Tapcast = Teleport to a target (ally, object, enemy - you name it). This teleportation can take your through walls, if you see their silhouette (Adds natural Shuriken-synergy, similar to your suggestion)
  • Holdcast = Teleport freely, up to your max range. This can NOT pass through walls/objects etc.
  • If you holdcast it and land on a wall, you'll automatically cling to the wall for a few seconds. Simply tap the aim button to let go.
  • On teleportation (both Tap and Hold), you become invisible for 1.5 seconds (moddable with Duration, cannot go below 1 second). This invisibility pauses your Smoke Screen's invisiblity duration!
  • On teleportation (both Tap and Hold), you open up all enemies to finishers in a 3 meter radius (moddable with Range) around you at your landing location.

Bladestorm

  • Upon cast, it now instantly marks up to X (say 12?) amount of enemies in a Z (say 20?) meter radius around Ash. Prioritizes the closest enemies. Targetting radius is moddable with Range. POTENTIALLY, the number of enemies it affects could be affected by Duration (but never goes below 8)?
  • Tapcast = You only send in the two clones to kill the marked enemies.
  • Holdcast = Send the two clones AND have Ash join as well.
    • If you tapcasted to only send in the clones, you can join them by holdcasting later as well (as long as there are enemies to attack). This join-in should probably have a limitted distance though (like, 50 meters (?), affected by Range)
  • All enemies marked on cast get all 3 marks on them each, meaning up to 3 Bladetorm-attacks will be done on each affected enemy.
    • However, the UI will now only show how many ENEMIES are affected, not how many MARKS are applied.
  • Energycost is now a set 100.
  • Could get a little casting animation, like some cliché "jutsu" handsign(s). It would still allow movement upon casting, but it would interrupt reloading etc.
  • As mentioned on Shuriken: If Shuriken's bleed is active on an enemy, it will instantly deal all of its and Bladestorm's bleed damage on that enemy, whenever these two abilities' remaining bleeddamage is enough to kill that enemy!
  • QoL: Sentinel and loot will visually disappear when Ash is joining the Bladestorm.
  • QoL: If you join the attack with Ash, he will land again where he cast to join in.
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On 2020-07-22 at 2:38 PM, Synpai said:

-snip-

On this point I agree with you 100% however this doesn`t have a negative effect on shuriken because of the damage build-up from the combo multiplier the crit is just a bonus, even without equipping a melee weapon the ability will work just fine.

 

Can you tell me some example of how teleport could be exploited?

 

I don`t see an issue with this, the way it is now wherever you teleport to when the ability is done is inconsistent, my idea just puts it back the way it used to work. The idea I had for this is that Ash is in a hiding spot, he uses his bs to kill a bunch of enemies, then teleports back to his hiding spot which makes him stealthier. There has to be a difference between his 3rd and 4th ability, if you want to reach a certain location use teleport, if you want to kill then quickly go back to you hiding spot use bs.

 

My bs ideas makes it more balanced and reasonable for both sides of ppl that enjoy a certain playstyle either to enjoy watching the sick animation or to be in two places and once that’s one of the reasons why my post is doing well. I also put and idea of how to make Ash in the animation interactive, you can find it on one of the pages by typing vexx-info.

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9 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

1. On this point I agree with you 100% however this doesn`t have a negative effect on shuriken because of the damage build-up from the combo multiplier the crit is just a bonus, even without equipping a melee weapon the ability will work just fine.

 

2. Can you tell me some example of how teleport could be exploited?

 

3. I don`t see an issue with this, the way it is now wherever you teleport to when the ability is done is inconsistent, my idea just puts it back the way it used to work. The idea I had for this is that Ash is in a hiding spot, he uses his bs to kill a bunch of enemies, then teleports back to his hiding spot which makes him stealthier. There has to be a difference between his 3rd and 4th ability, if you want to reach a certain location use teleport, if you want to kill then quickly go back to you hiding spot use bs.

 

4. My bs ideas makes it more balanced and reasonable for both sides of ppl that enjoy a certain playstyle either to enjoy watching the sick animation or to be in two places and once that’s one of the reasons why my post is doing well. I also put and idea of how to make Ash in the animation interactive, you can find it on one of the pages by typing vexx-info.

1. It's not that the ability should scale well without a melee, but scale better with a melee equipped. I simply mean the ability should function the same regardless of what melee or mods you have on your melee (period). Pseudo exalted abilities are in long overdue of a change since they mirror Exalted weapon 1.0 issues/dependencies, so I feel like adding onto the pile is unwise.

2. I'm almost certain I am not allowed to spread such information outside of bug reports xD

3. The problem is Warframe is 99% a game of moving forward, Protea gets away with it due to the energy refund, healing and safety net of her ability in stages like defense; I don't see the utility to back it up on Ash since....smokescreen. You're invisible, there's no better hiding lol.

4. In your opinion that may be the case, but several others have noted it's too similar to the old blade storm for them, myself included. I do think the balance exists, but I'm not sure you hit it for me, not that you need to. Correlation is not causation. I'd say people enjoy a good discussion and are appreciative of the post, not sure if that means the ideas are directly the reason why but it could be. o7

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On 2020-08-11 at 8:12 AM, Synpai said:

too similar to the old blade storm

Old bladestorm got gutted for being "op"/"not interactive enough". Meanwhile, stuff like mesa and octavia, as well as saryn, are allowed to relatively lazily nuke any normal content. Seems fair, aight.

Why do we even need to balance between old bladestorm that was actually good enough to compete with other nukes, and current underwhelming bladestorm? Can't we, like, have good abilities, or everything except aforementioned "top" frames has to underperform? Old bladestorm was fine, all it needed is a little base range/damage decrease and current QoL change of not being forced into its animation. Instead, what we got iis a clunky mess with a huge amount of raw damage being its only (somewhat) redeeming quality, it really needs buffs. At least wider targeting area, like garuda/mesa max circle, so anything you look at immediately gets marked.

Edited by GREF_TM
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Chiming back in with a thought again. As a reference to this idea of mine, the bolded part:

On 2020-08-07 at 7:49 PM, Azamagon said:

 

Shuriken

 

  • Slows enemies based on their healthstate
  • Shows enemy silhouettes through walls
  • Will deal its bleeddamage instantly to enemies, whenever the remaining bleeddamage is enough to kill them. If Shuriken is active on an enemy, it could (at least) also extend this bleed-burst to Bladestorm too (ANY slash would likely be too strong)!
  • Killing with Shuriken is considered a stealthkill (including with the bleed-burst if that occurs on the initial hit)
  • Augment: Can also remove shields if the enemy has no armor (this should be a thing for all armor-removal augments etc, imo)

I "tested" how potent this Shuriken and Bladestorm synergy would be (but having to wait out the bleeds of course). At very high levels it doesn't take much Bladestorm bleeding for it to become lethal. In theory, this could become so good that you'd might even consider it a tad Overpowered. But imo, that's good, because if you have Warframe that makes you go "nah, I don't think I wanna swap out any of its powers from the Helminth system", you have a pretty good design going on.

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On 2020-01-03 at 3:37 AM, Xarteros said:

My suggestion for Ash is, and always will be, to replace his 4 with a 'Hunter mode'. Enemies are shown through walls, and their hearts (or power cores for robots) are revealed as a glowing point in their body. In this mode, casting 1 summons distant clones that fire shurikens from other angles (all at once if in an open area, or one-at-a-time if in narrow spaces). Casting 2 deploys close-range clones to engage opponents in melee, and casting 3 deploys clones to perform finishers around your teleport target. While in the mode, there's either a drain over time, a decrease in power efficiency, or both (to compensate for the additional effects). Hitting a target's heart/core with your weapon deals true damage, and possibly some measure of punch-through bonus in doing so. With the addition of Parazon finishers, you could even make a unique finisher option using the Parazon or Ash's oldschool Dark Dagger for special (and quick) finishers.

Visual Example of glowing hearts from The Darkness II:

The-Darkness-II-small-21.jpg

id really like a frame that can look through walls though id be ok if it was on a new frame because i dont wana take away bladestorm from people who like it

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9 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Old bladestorm got gutted for being "op"/"not interactive enough". Meanwhile, stuff like mesa and octavia, as well as saryn, are allowed to relatively lazily nuke any normal content. Seems fair, aight.

Why do we even need to balance between old bladestorm that was actually good enough to compete with other nukes, and current underwhelming bladestorm? Can't we, like, have good abilities, or everything except aforementioned "top" frames has to underperform? Old bladestorm was fine, all it needed is a little base range/damage decrease and current QoL change of not being forced into its animation. Instead, what we got iis a clunky mess with a huge amount of raw damage being its only (somewhat) redeeming quality, it really needs buffs. At least wider targeting area, like garuda/mesa max circle, so anything you look at immediately gets marked.

Well let's be honest Saryn and Mesa have, to some extent, levels of effort involved in playing them.

You can't really parallel current Mesa to old Bladestorm. Try comparing old Mesa to old Bladestorm and you'll know why they both got changed: They were both uninteractive and minimal effort. I'd say that Ash simply got changed in a time where things had to happen quick and dirty. Saryn you have to at least interact at a certain point to make sure your spores don't die out, but both aren't something players can Macro ATM. 

By my other posts about Ash I mention current Bladestorm is in need of a better balance overall. Ash's passive should be "Marking Enemies" with slash procs (stacking up to 3 times with each mark causing enemies to take 10% extra slash damage [30% at max]) from all sources. Then his abilities could GUARANTEE marks and scale with them, where Blade Storm becomes a toggle so the clones just automatically attack anything that reaches 3 marks. THAT (IMO) is a decent balance between interaction and automation because Ash would effectively just have to focus on getting enemies to 3 marks:
 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by Synpai
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21 hours ago, Synpai said:

Well let's be honest Saryn and Mesa have, to some extent, levels of effort involved in playing them.

You can't really parallel current Mesa to old Bladestorm. Try comparing old Mesa to old Bladestorm and you'll know why they both got changed: They were both uninteractive and minimal effort. I'd say that Ash simply got changed in a time where things had to happen quick and dirty. Saryn you have to at least interact at a certain point to make sure your spores don't die out, but both aren't something players can Macro ATM. 

By my other posts about Ash I mention current Bladestorm is in need of a better balance overall. Ash's passive should be "Marking Enemies" with slash procs (stacking up to 3 times with each mark causing enemies to take 10% extra slash damage [30% at max]) from all sources. Then his abilities could GUARANTEE marks and scale with them, where Blade Storm becomes a toggle so the clones just automatically attack anything that reaches 3 marks. THAT (IMO) is a decent balance between interaction and automation because Ash would effectively just have to focus on getting enemies to 3 marks:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I love this.

Although I would still like Teleport to have a Hold  option to free aim teleport to cursor location. Aside from that, each of abilities end up with unique functions where they aren't all simply competing to deal damage (I love the pinning to walls suggestion for Shuriken, and the Pax Seeker-like augment). This feels like a very natural gameplay flow for him, and the team-friendly additions are great, so he isn't entirely self serving. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I love this.

Although I would still like Teleport to have a Hold  option to free aim teleport to cursor location. Aside from that, each of abilities end up with unique functions where they aren't all simply competing to deal damage (I love the pinning to walls suggestion for Shuriken, and the Pax Seeker-like augment). This feels like a very natural gameplay flow for him, and the team-friendly additions are great, so he isn't entirely self serving. 

Good point, having teleport allow movement in a direction would be neat too could work well with his shuriken hold cast (teleport tot he location it lands. The only reason I think  they avoid abilities like that is out of bounds exploits, Nova portals have caused much of this already.

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8 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Nova portals have caused much of this already.

That's true, but then they still gave Nezha and Wisp essentially a free aim teleport long after that. Having it tied to the "free aim" shuriken as an anchor would still be nice. They could actually still do it similar to Wisp (or Nova's Antimatter drop) and make the Hold send out a little orb (that only Ash can see) that travels further the longer it's held and teleports him to that location when released. If necessary they could have the cost increase the further it travels after a it reaches 50-100% of the standard casting range.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

That's true, but then they still gave Nezha and Wisp essentially a free aim teleport long after that. Having it tied to the "free aim" shuriken as an anchor would still be nice. They could actually still do it similar to Wisp (or Nova's Antimatter drop) and make the Hold send out a little orb (that only Ash can see) that travels further the longer it's held and teleports him to that location when released. If necessary they could have the cost increase the further it travels after a it reaches 50-100% of the standard casting range.

Yeah sorry that wasn't to say they shouldn't or couldn't do it, more just train of thought as to why it's probably not been seen. There are a few different ways this could work well O:

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Vexx-Info:

My version of a ninja warframe is up and ready to read, it also includes some synergies with her friend and partner that makes them a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. Take a look and tell me what you think.

 

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Mostly just wished they made his band-aid augment mods part of the abilities themselves. Shuriken kinda sucks without it's armor stripping augment, and Teleport also needs an augment to not fail working every two kills due to shoddy not guaranteed triggering of the kill animation. Smoke shadow is also lackluster as an augment and imho could be part of the base ability making ash more of a team player.This would free the devs to make three new cool augments for ash too, once the base abilities are good enough to use on their own without the augments. This is especially true now that subsuming allows to swap some ash's abilities

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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On 2020-07-27 at 5:40 PM, yrf8isdeth said:

This post is great. I agree that Ash's 1 and 3 abilities are very underwhelming. His 2 is fine for me, but the stun portion never comes up as it is too unreliable. As for his 4 I personally preferred the old 4 to his new reworked one. This new 4 is super glitchy when combined with his 3 ability, and I basically only use it to build up combo counter with the augment. 

Most ppl don`t talk about the stun from his 2, I just wanted to improve it`s cc ability, with my improvements, it has better cc, can de-buff enemies, ppl can now build for less duration, more range to make it diverse can now be used strategically and makes it useful in a team. Since you prefer the old bs what do you think of my improvements to bs?

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On 2020-07-31 at 4:01 PM, _Kiro said:

Ash definitely needs some love. I love his concept but I can't play anything besides a build based on his 1. His 2 lasts a very small amount of time, his 3 is situational, his 4 is only usable when soloing and, even so, it's faster to just use my melee weapon.

I have no major troubles personally with any of his skills BESIDES his 4, I can tolerate the ups and downs, but that's an opinion coming from someone who just doesn't play him as much. His 4 feels slow, and works slow.


I'm fine with skills that you actually have to aim but having to aim, wait for the tag to appear and then pressing the button means someone already killed it and I'm basically wasting my time while using said skill. At the end of the day I feel like I contribute nothing to a squad if I focus on his 4th ability.

Since you feel this way about Ash, does my improvements address the issues you have with him? Will they make you play Ash again?

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On 2020-08-17 at 8:53 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Most ppl don`t talk about the stun from his 2, I just wanted to improve it`s cc ability, with my improvements, it has better cc, can de-buff enemies, ppl can now build for less duration, more range to make it diverse can now be used strategically and makes it useful in a team. Since you prefer the old bs what do you think of my improvements to bs?

The current bladestorm combined with his 3 ability just creates too many glitches. However, just using his bladestorm by itself is too weak in terms of damage and usability as you have to mark everyone you want to hit. At least with his old bladestorm it gave ash a few seconds of invulnerability where he could heal his shields. When it comes to high level content, the current bladestorm is essentially useless other than maybe to quickly increase melee combo count (with the rising storm augment) or to apply a weak slash status. 

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On 2020-08-19 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Again what do you think of my improvements to bladestorm?

I like the idea of having it synergize with his shrunken, but I would mostly prefer if bladestorm was just fixed and improved in general. This could be said about all his abilities, either they get more synergies in order to increase their power level when combined, or each ability needs to be improved upon individually. As is, Ash's abilities are all very lacking and pretty weak.

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Vexx-info:

I have been doing some testing with the stuns from Ash`s 2nd and 3rd ability. I stunned an enemy with an electric proc then I noticed when I cast his 2 right after, it would interrupt the electric stun on the enemy, this shows potential and improves the stun part of my idea making it more strategic when it comes to enemies affected by cc statuses.

However, when I tried this with his 3, it didn’t interrupt it no matter how many times I targeted the enemy it didn`t open them up to finishers.

This shows the stun interruption is not consistent with both abilities (which I’m assuming it goes for the other status affects) so I am going to add to my improvements that both abilities can interrupt enemies that`s already affected by a stun, is this something you guys want me to add to the post?

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Vexx-info:

I have been doing some testing with the stuns from Ash`s 2nd and 3rd ability. I stunned an enemy with an electric proc then I noticed when I cast his 2 right after, it would interrupt the electric stun on the enemy, this shows potential and improves the stun part of my idea making it more strategic when it comes to enemies affected by cc statuses.

However, when I tried this with his 3, it didn’t interrupt it no matter how many times I targeted the enemy it didn`t open them up to finishers.

This shows the stun interruption is not consistent with both abilities (which I’m assuming it goes for the other status affects) so I am going to add to my improvements that both abilities can interrupt enemies that`s already affected by a stun, is this something you guys want me to add to the post?

Opening to finishers sadly have very low animation priority when it's purely a finisher-opener (unlike Blinds and Sleeps).

Edited by Azamagon
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Every time I am running a mission with you, you advertise this and this is the FIRST time I am looking at this.  Like I always say Ash is fine.  Half the time I am running Ash and out damaging and killing everything before most of the other team catches up to me in Lich missions or Steel Path or whatever.. I think Ash just requires the right equipment/mods to get the job done.  Yeah, they made him simple yet complicated with energy retention.

Running an Ash these days, you MUST have equipped one or more of the following:  Primed Flow, MAXED Arcane Energize, Exodia Brave on a Zaw, Dethcube with Energy Generator mod and a Sentinel weapon that has PUNCH-THROUGH to hit multiple targets (Dethcube stays alive pretty easily at high levels if you stay invis, shield gating helps this too), Syndicate Synoid/Ratka weapons or Entrophy/Blight mods to regenerate energy through their radial bursts, and as a last resort that I don't do there is always Energy Siphon aura mod and/or Zenurik focus tree with Energizing Dash.   Running Zenurik is kind of stupid though because you are losing the potential power of the 12x combo stacks damage you can get from Naramon, and since Blade Storm apparition finishers add to combo stacks, it wouldn't be my choice since you will lose the stacks between groups of enemies unless waste mods on upping your melee's duration..

Now what I think:

Ideas I hated:

  • Changes to Shuriken, it's already OP with the Augment Seeking Shuriken stripping all Armor, I like that it hits multi targets and AUTO homes.  I know it's not much without the Augment but I wouldn't even use a build without the Augment.  I usually only throw it at Heavy Gunners or Nox's who have the most Armor.  I mean if Seeking Shuriken Augment, made the ability how it is now with armor stripping, and WITHOUT the augment the ability did all that slow crowd control sort of stuff you mentioned then It would be balanced.
  • Changes to how Blade Storm works.  INSTANT would be TOO OP and auto killing apparitions would be too OP considering it would break getting combo stacks to do Heavy Attacks with NO consequence.  If you have trouble marking enemies, up your PS4 aiming controller sensitivity and get used to hitting a bunch of targets fast.
  • Apparition's being invisible... what's the point?  You would teleport to watch and see nothing kill a guy, lol... I know it logically makes sense but not visually.
  • Teleport shouldn't go through walls.

Ideas I liked:

  • Shuriken cost of energy upping efficiency after sequential casts/throws...  It would help keep some energy because some times I throw it too many times in one place and already low on energy because of it.
  • Idea on 2nd ability Smoke Screen Invis cloud area effect to add evasion of some sort, and some crowd control... 10 seconds is a lifetime in Warframe in my opinion though.  I think if the Smoke Screen had CC this would make this frame more viable for higher tier stuff, maybe even like Steel Path Mobile Defense, lol.  Definitely would need that 10 seconds there.
  • Bodies not disappearing after Blade Storm.  Nekro's would benefit so I am all for that synergy.
  • BS apparitions pickup up energy orbs, as it is one of the main issues with ash, keeping his energy up.
  • Pretty much everything you said about Teleport, because it's pretty useless in my eyes.  It would enhance wall latching mods, as well as keep up with faster frames to get ahead to get kills (though I just use Operator and teleport to front of group, with all way bounds unlocked it's faster).  Something that would help Teleport is if it did a reset of the timer for smoke screen invis while it was active, then I would probably use it more.
  • Marking targets 3 times should be reduced, it does waste a little bit of time.  Even if it was down to two marks, that would work better.  I know half the time I only mark an enemy ONCE and they are dead because of the upped combo stacks (kept through Naramon and upped crit chance/status chance with Blood Rush/Weeping wounds mods).

I think you went into a mission with Saryn not to long ago with my buddy Hydra who was running Ash at the time and he sent me a screenshot of how he did 90% of the damage... You got to be quick with Ash these days, and know how combo stacking tops out with Blade Storm and an awesome melee weapon. 

Good luck on getting a rework, but I doubt it will happen soon.  Some of your ideas are valid.

Edited by (PS4)Poestis
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