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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


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While there is some excellent feedback in this thread, the thread was only being kept alive by repeated bumping--behavior which is not something we condone on these forums.

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I'd agree with a revisit. Ash is my most used frame by far, for the most part I have a great experience playing solo and in teams even in his current state. I can't deny that the shuris without the augment are a joke, teleport is barely useful and BS has some usability issues. However, with flaws and all I still consider Ash an A tier frame and with a proper build he can make a lot of the content trivial, this probably doesn't help in him being prioritised for a revisit. I still like the ideas you have shared previously tho and I'd definitely welcome these sort of changes.

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It's not that I disagree with Vexs opinion about that Ash needs a revisit (/rework). I have more the problem that he appears dubios with all the Ash-threads and accidentally let the importance of a good Ash revisit also appear to be dubios/ unimportant. I don't want to say that a rework for Hydroid, Zephyr& Co is less important. 

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25 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

It's not that I disagree with Vexs opinion about that Ash needs a revisit (/rework). I have more the problem that he appears dubios with all the Ash-threads and accidentally let the importance of a good Ash revisit also appear to be dubios/ unimportant. I don't want to say that a rework for Hydroid, Zephyr& Co is less important. 

he's obsessed with ASH. 

i wouldn't have been blaming him because i get obsessed with a lot of warframes, but i do because he's very mean to everyone who doesn't agree with him, and ridicules everyone's ideas and mains. he's very cancerous 

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I can agreed with Ash needing a revisit (although, I feel most Warframes need one, hehe). I can agreed that he needs to be improved especially on Shuriken and Bladestorm. But I don't think he needs priority over the REALLY bad Warframes, like Hydroid.

As for how I'd improve him, I'll just keep those ideas in this spoiler:

Spoiler

PASSIVE:
On top of the bleedbonus, it's expanded to also let him see bleeding enemies through walls (similar to Codex scanning silhouettes)

SHURIKEN:

  • ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
    • To give Shuriken a baseline, non-augmented use, I'd propose to add this "ability bleed execution" effect on it:
      • At any time when an enemy is bleeding from Shuriken, if the bleed-damage of Shuriken (and Bladestorm!) is currently enough to kill the enemy, all this bleed-damage is dealt instantly, killing the target
    • Shurikens also stagger (impact-proc) the struck enemies, or instead maybe briefly stun them (same animation as opening for finishers)?
  • CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
    • Tapcast = Throw 1 shuriken which bounces over to 1/2/2/3 additional targets. Homing range is affected by Ability Range. Prioritizes to bounce to unaffected targets first.
    • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Throw 1 shuriken which travels straight forward, which has 1/2/2/3 meter punchthrough and "razor ashes" added to it, which expands its horizontal hitbox (but only for striking enemies, not the environment) by about 1 meter. Punchthrough and ash-width are affected by Ability Range.

SMOKE SCREEN:

  • ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
    • Also leaves a lingering smoke cloud on the cast location with very low opacity (so it doesn't block ally vision).  This cloud has multiple effects:
      • Blocks enemy line-of-sight, capable of forcing them to enter the cloud.
      • Once an enemy enters the cloud, it can only see in a 2 meter radius and they have a 50% chance to miss their attacks (melee included).
      • The cloud's duration is the same as Ash's invisibility (2/4/6/8 seconds)
  • CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
    • Recasting the ability midduration removes the invisibility from Ash (but keeps the lingering cloud), which allows him to recast the ability again.
    • Using the recasting effect allows Ash to place more than one cloud at once. Max 2 clouds can exist though (recasting again when 2 clouds are already out removes the oldest one first).
  • AUGMENT CHANGES:
    • Whenever an ally enters the lingering cloud, they gain invisibility for 30/50/70/100% of the cloud's remaining duration. (Note: Even if Ash removes the cloud via recasting after they have grabbed the invisibility, they still keep their invisibility)
    • Additionally increases the range of Smoke Screen by 15/25/35/50%.

TELEPORT:

  • ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
    • In addition to its current effects, it also opens enemies up to finishers in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius around the landing location (moddable with Ability Range).
    • General "open to finisher" effect (this is not just for Ash): If an enemy has been the subject of any attack or ability which opens them to finishers, they now get a symbol over them (similar to the Parazon's Mercy), which indicates that they are now eligible for finishers. What this means is that even if the enemy doesn't get into the stun-animation, you are still able to use a finisher on them! This effect could last for about 4 seconds or so.
      • Note: If an enemy has both a regular finisher symbol on them, and the Parazon's Mercy on them, the Mercy-execution takes priority.
  • CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
    • Tapcast = Same as now (i.e. it requires a target). However, it can now target allies or enemies through walls, if they are visible/highlighted. Note the synergy with his expanded passive and Shuriken's capability to travel through walls, in particular!
    • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Allows Ash to teleport forward without a target, up to 20/40/45/60 meters (does not pass environment though).
      • If you teleport to a wall, he will automatically cling to it, with 1 second bonus to the wall-cling duration. You can let go of the wall-cling by just tapping your aim-button.

BLADESTORM:

  • MECHANICAL CASTING CHANGES:
    • Very heavily changed how it is cast. It no longer uses the manual marking system, but rather like this:
      • Upon cast, Ash marks up to 8/10/12/15 enemies who are within line of sight in a 360 degree manner, and within a 10/12/15/20 meter radius (moddable with Ability Range). If an enemy is highlighted through a wall, it's considered to be within line of sight (they ofc still abide to the radius limit).
      • Each enemy get 3 marks on them, and the clones start attacking immediately.
      • Cannot recast or cancel the ability while its taking place, it needs to finish first (This is not new, just emphasizing this point)
      • The ability now shows how many enemies are marked, rather than how many marks are placed
      • The ability now costs 100 energy, regardless of many enemies are marked.
  • CASTING OPTIONS:
    • Tapcast = Only sends out his 2 clones to attack the enemies
    • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Sends out the 2 clones and Ash joining immediately
    • Holdcast midduration = If only the clones were sent out (i.e. a tapcast), Ash can join them by holdcasting midduration, if he is withing 20/40/45/60 meters of at least one of the marked enemies.
  • EFFECT CHANGES:
    • If Ash is invisible upon casting Bladestorm, so are his clones.
    • If an enemy is bleeding and within range of Bladestorm's radius, it gains a special visual effect on it to indicate that they are within its effect-range.

 

So there. What this means is:

  • Bladestorm is no longer a hassle with its marking mechanic. But, it now requires him to be in the midst of combat instead.
  • Teleport allows him to quickly position himself - such as in the midst of a clump of enemies, to for example cast Bladestorm on them
  • Smoke Screen allows him to safely BE in the midst of a clump of enemies, while also being a good general survivability tool - now also more helpful for the team (augmented or not)
  • Shuriken has two new strong roles: 1) Making enemies bleed through walls allows him to expose unseen enemies (perfect for Bladestorm and/or Teleport) and 2) It quickens enemies' death with its "ability bleed execution" effect, far more so if it's combined with Bladestorm!

 

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On 2020-11-03 at 12:32 PM, (NSW)Spektr3 said:

I'd agree with a revisit. Ash is my most used frame by far, for the most part I have a great experience playing solo and in teams even in his current state. I can't deny that the shuris without the augment are a joke, teleport is barely useful and BS has some usability issues. However, with flaws and all I still consider Ash an A tier frame and with a proper build he can make a lot of the content trivial, this probably doesn't help in him being prioritised for a revisit. I still like the ideas you have shared previously tho and I'd definitely welcome these sort of changes.

At this point I can`t say anything to you, you`re acknowledging that he has issues but you still enjoy playing him (like I do). All I want is for ppl to acknowledge his issues and for DE to give him a revisit, now when ppl see the facts but still deny and say "he`s perfect", then they are delusional at that point.

One thing Ash can do but ppl don`t use it due to it being redundant is when you decrease your duration and increase range you turn his 2nd ability into a cc ability however since the stun is only 1 second it`s not that useful and ppl would rather be invisible, with a simple change of increasing the stun duration to 4 seconds (like I suggested) will make a complete difference in how that ability works and will now present 2 options of how you can use that ability.

Edited by (PS4)Vexx757
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hace 2 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

increasing the stun duration

That sounds good, 4 seconds may be too much tho I would rather have 2 seconds and double the range of the stun, just like banshee's silence. Also, and this is just wishful thinking, I'd love an alt cast that allows me to throw smoke bombs around to stun enemies in an area or cloak defense targets, although this would probably turn Ash into an all-rounder op as hell frame 😂.

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20 hours ago, (NSW)Spektr3 said:

That sounds good, 4 seconds may be too much tho I would rather have 2 seconds and double the range of the stun, just like banshee's silence. Also, and this is just wishful thinking, I'd love an alt cast that allows me to throw smoke bombs around to stun enemies in an area or cloak defense targets, although this would probably turn Ash into an all-rounder op as hell frame 😂.

His 2nd has good range at base, it doesn`t need to have anymore range and I made it to where of you want range you have to sacrifice duration, the reason for this ideas coz I hear ppl say "I make my Ash look sick, just for him to be invisible" well if your someone that can do without invisible this change gives you the option for cc instead. If this was implemented, for fun I'd mod for cc and for high levels I'd mod for duration at least ppl have the choice now. 

As for the 4 seconds compared to a real smock screen the duration is to low, 10 seconds at least but that would be too much so 4 seconds is enough time hit and run or just run.

As for all my ideas in game play (if you remember my improvement to his 2nd ability) here is how it now can be used;

 

·       If you are surrounded by enemies, you can Stun them with smoke screen which will give Ash and allies a 4 second window to kill them without any issues.

·       You can use the smoke on a dangerous enemy to keep the stunned longer and make it easy to kill with his 1st, 3,rd and 4th abilities, weapons and allies damage.

·       The smoke can be used to lock enemies down in doorways.

·       If an ally is in danger, they can stand inside the smoke making them unseen to enemies.

 

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 Ash is a very tricky subject since hes one of the old era frames where every frame wasn't a jack of all trades or solo frame and DE is very hesitant on completely changing old frame skills ( remember excaliburs super jump and how much time it took DE to give up and add a new skill completely )

1. Shurikens are ok in early but useless in late even with augment since you can press 3 to execute any target ( suggestion is to increase the number of shurikens thrown at enemies )

2. Smoke bomb - invisibility and more melee damage because of stealth multiplier ( nothing wrong here )

3. Teleport - is pretty much press to kill and augment also gives 50% energy refund on kill

4. Blade storm - it's ok, nothing special, just boring  ( the old version was somewhat entertaining to watch but that's just it, you press 4 and watch a cutscene. They added more interaction to make it more interesting but people complained they aren't killing fast enough like before and ended being the same as before but with extra steps).

   * another note on this, I think shadow of war made the best example of blade storm.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by Shaden73
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Even through I have shown evidence and proven my points, it still drained out of his/her brain like a sieve.

Quote from Basky

"I might be crazy or delusional. Bladestorm is strong. I really can't belive you are using a video with level 6 enemies as an example."

Even through I said before you even watch the video...

On 2020-11-02 at 1:40 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Here is a video which shows that he can`t kill level six enemies with another player because of the marking mechanic.

This person still talks about damage (which i`m assuming he/she means by "strong"). Like I say to ppl "what`s the point of driving a fast car if you can handle it? What`s the point of having all that damage if it`s slow to activate it?

 

Then he/she says

"I play Arbitrations with Ash. No full melee, no Naramon, just Bladestorm and a Soma. No problems here. I use him on Steel Path but solo, since there's no online activity in that gamemode."

One thing I notice for the ppl that say "he`s fine or he`s perfect", they always bring the same argument... damage and I have noticed the ppl that are like this do either one or all of these things.

They either;

  • Use seeking shuriken on his 1.
  • Use fatal teleport on his 3.
  • Use him in high-level missions.

Of course they will think he`s fine, they use two augment to cover up their issues and use him in places where he is (i`m not even going to say good) most effective, I haven't yet met a person the doesn`t do any of those and still say he`s "perfect" or he`s "fine". That is why I specifically said use bs in a team on Earth defence because you will see the issues with it as soon as you activate the ability.

And what he/she said proves my point that you won`t find any vids on ppl playing Ash in a team using bs coz of how it works and that ppl play him solo, at least with the old bs you could use it anywhere and at any level.

 

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hace 12 horas, (PSN)Vexx757 dijo:

Even through I have shown evidence and proven my points, it still drained out of his/her brain like a sieve.

Quote from Basky

"I might be crazy or delusional. Bladestorm is strong. I really can't belive you are using a video with level 6 enemies as an example."

Even through I said before you even watch the video...

This person still talks about damage (which i`m assuming he/she means by "strong"). Like I say to ppl "what`s the point of driving a fast car if you can handle it? What`s the point of having all that damage if it`s slow to activate it?

 

Then he/she says

"I play Arbitrations with Ash. No full melee, no Naramon, just Bladestorm and a Soma. No problems here. I use him on Steel Path but solo, since there's no online activity in that gamemode."

One thing I notice for the ppl that say "he`s fine or he`s perfect", they always bring the same argument... damage and I have noticed the ppl that are like this do either one or all of these things.

They either;

  • Use seeking shuriken on his 1.
  • Use fatal teleport on his 3.
  • Use him in high-level missions.

Of course they will think he`s fine, they use two augment to cover up their issues and use him in places where he is (i`m not even going to say good) most effective, I haven't yet met a person the doesn`t do any of those and still say he`s "perfect" or he`s "fine". That is why I specifically said use bs in a team on Earth defence because you will see the issues with it as soon as you activate the ability.

And what he/she said proves my point that you won`t find any vids on ppl playing Ash in a team using bs coz of how it works and that ppl play him solo, at least with the old bs you could use it anywhere and at any level.

 

Oh wow. I didn't say he's perfect or fine, I don't use any of his augments, and forgive me for not playing on f** EARTH. I can't talk about damage when Ash is a damage dealer? And of course I play Ash where he is most effective are you serious?
You want to buff Bladestorm just because he can't kill weak enemies fast enough when this would make him a nuke that can kill high level enemies faster than anything.

The only thing I care is performance on medium-high level. I gave up on trying to have fun at low level, with any frame.

You know you can adress me directly? But please go easy on me or my weak brain will end up compleatly drained like a sieve (keep the condescending attitude and you will end up with your own thread closed).

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1 hour ago, BasKy said:

You know you can adress me directly? But please go easy on me or my weak brain will end up compleatly drained like a sieve (keep the condescending attitude and you will end up with your own thread closed).

this is his second...no no wait, his THIRD thread, the old 2 got closed for constant spamming lol.

 but spamming aside, let me tell you my story with this guy.

Spoiler

 

so he made a thread about reworking all the warframes, and one of them were an awful over the top and downright awful gauss rework, of course i politely addressed my issues with his gauss "rework".

he got super duper angry, and blocked me for, um, calling his gauss "revisit" a rework, 

he also called me stupid and dumb aaaaand ridiculed my obsession with gauss. at least i don't spam other people's threads with stupid posts

anyway, i think that's why he doesn't mention people directly

 

 

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12 hours ago, BasKy said:

-snip-

The only reason I didn`t address you directly is coz my post pretty much proves my point on Ash, but I can address this comment.

The "sieve" comment is the best analogy I could come up with coz despite what I have shown, you completely mist it the point (or ignored it) and your the only on here that`s done it. I didn`t say YOU said I said PPL say and with the Earth part, i`m saying go and try using bs on Earth in a team and you will see the issues, so far I haven`t had anyone come back to me from the ppl i`ve talked to and talked to me about the experience they had on Earth or a vid showing it, I would do it but ppl are just going to say that I can`t play Ash so I would rather them try it out.

The effective part again I never said YOU I ended talking about you when I said "One thing I have noticed", if you compare Ash`s old bs on activation (not damage) old bs could be used anywhere and at any level vs current bs coz of the marking is not as effective, warframe abilities should be good no matter where you play, there`s nothing wrong with wanting to play mid/high but it has to be effective at every level (again not talking about damage).

The important buff I want him to get is activation speed and if you really care about performance the marking mechanic`s performance is bad (again read the post). 

This isn`t a knock on you, I just used you comment as an example to show the kind of comment that I get when PPL disagree that he has issues. That's it.

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hace 19 horas, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk dijo:

this is his second...no no wait, his THIRD thread, the old 2 got closed for constant spamming lol.

 but spamming aside, let me tell you my story with this guy.

  Revelar contenido oculto

 

so he made a thread about reworking all the warframes, and one of them were an awful over the top and downright awful gauss rework, of course i politely addressed my issues with his gauss "rework".

he got super duper angry, and blocked me for, um, calling his gauss "revisit" a rework, 

he also called me stupid and dumb aaaaand ridiculed my obsession with gauss. at least i don't spam other people's threads with stupid posts

anyway, i think that's why he doesn't mention people directly

 

 

LOL I know what post that is. Those changes seem random buffs to me. Kinetic Plating not draining battery when hit means 100% damage reduction almost all the time wich is crazy

hace 8 horas, (PSN)Vexx757 dijo:

---SsNiPp---

I'm not missing your points, can't you understand someone disagrees with you? And I don't think any of your arguments are solid. You are ignoring everything is told about you and your ideas because you can't be wrong apparently. And if your posts were organized with quotes scpecifying what are you answering, I would bother to do the same, but you won't.

The idea that Bladestorm is useless because it's overshadowed by others on the lowest threat level possible, is flawed. Bladestorm is high damage, you can't give the player the ability to deal 10000 true damage in 1 second. If Bladestorm is fast enough on low level, imagine what happens in high level.

And you kept quoting and referring to me as if I was your circus attraction. "look everyone! this person still talks about damage! These specimens always bring the same arguments!"

 

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On 2020-11-02 at 5:43 AM, rawr1254 said:

Honestly with Saryn, Octavia, Mesa, Khora, Equinox, Volt, and now even Xaku being a thing with being easy room clearing nukes I say revert Ash back to the good old days of Bladestorm where you tap it and forget it. Nowadays even if they did that it still wouldnt become Meta again cause even with the reversion it still wouldnt even come close to todays nukers which honestly...bladestorm wasnt even really a nuke it was a cast and wait till the animation plays through in 15-30 seconds

Tbh I don`t want his bs to be exactly like it was coz it did have issues and using it wasn`t far for other players in the team also I don`t want the 18 limit and the increased enemy defences back coz those two things are unnecessary. You are right he won`t be meta (if you compare it to the others) coz it only kills enemies 2 by 2 (3 by 3 when joining) and even if you put attack speed mods on it will still kill enemies in 2/3 at a time plus you can`t use the ability again until the clones have stopped killing.

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On 2020-11-06 at 7:55 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

don't worry kid, ash will get good changes soon to bladestorm, whether you like it or not, no one cares, not even you because you'll still complain anyway. 

Nah, Volt got an amazing rework after a HUGE STRUGGLE for years and no one complained afterwards so it's possible. XD

 

On 2020-11-02 at 12:43 AM, rawr1254 said:

Honestly with Saryn, Octavia, Mesa, Khora, Equinox, Volt, and now even Xaku being a thing with being easy room clearing nukes I say revert Ash back to the good old days of Bladestorm where you tap it and forget it. Nowadays even if they did that it still wouldnt become Meta again cause even with the reversion it still wouldnt even come close to todays nukers which honestly...bladestorm wasnt even really a nuke it was a cast and wait till the animation plays through in 15-30 seconds

tbh his original Bladestorm design was fine, you could even merge it with aspects of the current one since all he 'really' needed with his original bladestorm was to allow allies to hit targeted mobs, which the new one added. What it didn't need was the awful marking and everything associated with it as in stealth synergy and energy per target. An even better merger would have been ~ original bladestorm + allowing allies to hit enemies it's attacking + uses shadows and ash is free to move about (or hold to join in since I did like the original for quick invulnerability toggle). But DE didn't like his huge circle AoE wipe so the most logical choice would have been the Mesa cone treatment or something similar.

Honestly I have no idea how or why they thought it needed a crappy spaztic marking mechanic other than it was a social experiement/prank that failed and was never cleaned up.

Edited by Wolfdoggie
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12 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

tbh his original Bladestorm design was fine

If I have to be honest it was not fine, it had two issues;

  • If their was an eximus was within the radius of bs, it would take a long time for Ash to leave the animation since the eximus was increasing enemies defences.
  • Because of the eximus and Ash bs increasing enemies defences, only warframes with exalted weapons could kill enemies affected by bs which means no warframe or weapons could kill them.

However both of those issues could be avoided by just killing the eximus first, them using bs however the current bs`s issues can be avoided.

 

12 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

An even better merger would have been ~ original bladestorm + allowing allies to hit enemies it's attacking + uses shadows and ash is free to move about (or hold to join in since I did like the original for quick invulnerability toggle)

Right. That was the common sense thing to do, that`s what I suggested back in 2018. If that happened, no one would complain. 

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When I've been playing him recently, I had the idea that it might be nice to have an augment to make Smoke Screen higher duration if you're in mark-mode of BS, add a hold-to-mark instead of just marking everything you hover, to make it a hyper-strategic option that doesn't have an analog on other frames, and really fits the assassin theme of Ash.

 

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Quote from Marios_my_Homie:

Spoiler

"Read through your post on the Ash changes and signed the petition"

"I agree with a lot of what you proposed, especially the smokescreen essentially hiding teammates and teleport changes."

"As is I really only find him useful in solo missions because other frames just seem to overpower him too often, especially bladestorm,"

 

I appreciate it. Even through I play him solo and I don`t care that much if ppl play him solo or not, DE is pushing this to be a co-op game and Ash is a contradictory to that, he can`t help the team in any way, at least with the old bs he could help by keeping the players alive before enemies try to kill them off. Because of the marking mechanic Ash is not effective in a team like he use to be and even worse in low level missions.

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Of all the frames that could use some work. I would never of thought that someone would be writing walls of text describing every tiny detail why ash needs a rework or tune up. His kit is solid and he does a lot of things really well. 

Even though it takes an augment, his 1 is reliable armor strip and you only need 1 power strength mod to achieve 100% strip

His smoke screen is basically immortality, especially with shield gating and stealth damage multipliers.

His teleport is my least liked ability and i usually replace it. The augment is fun but it's meh

His 4 scales really high and can comfortably kill steel path enemies. 

There are plenty of positives to ash and he is still very much used. I believe less popular frames need more attention then ash. Frames like grendel, banshee and nyx.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PSN)lydon123:

Of all the frames that could use some work. I would never of thought that someone would be writing walls of text describing every tiny detail why ash needs a rework or tune up. His kit is solid and he does a lot of things really well. 

Even though it takes an augment, his 1 is reliable armor strip and you only need 1 power strength mod to achieve 100% strip

His smoke screen is basically immortality, especially with shield gating and stealth damage multipliers.

His teleport is my least liked ability and i usually replace it. The augment is fun but it's meh

His 4 scales really high and can comfortably kill steel path enemies. 

There are plenty of positives to ash and he is still very much used. I believe less popular frames need more attention then ash. Frames like grendel, banshee and nyx.

I could write you a text-wall, why you are wrong (Seriously, look at Ash passive/ damage type and google what slash damage does ignore), but instead i'm going to play a game with you. Edit: It turns out that my game won't work, because I missunderstood Hydroids third ability. So here comes the wall.

Shuriken: You are right about that this ability, becomes a useful 100% armor stripper with the augment. But the problem is that it doesn't matter for Ash. All of his abilities deal slash/ true damage and like we all know does slash/ true damage ignore armor. fn the augment would remove the enemy shield it would be different, because this is the only things which prevents Ash from killing his targets. Last but not least is the damage of both shuriken combinded to low to be useful and let's not forget that one shuriken cost 12,5 energy, while one Bs-mark only 12 (6 if invisibel). And yes I know that it should have punchtrough, but it does never work. (maybe once in 10 times). Oh and did I mention the accuracy of the shurikens?

Smoke bomb: While this ability make Ash immortal it's actually the weakest of it's kind. Ivara last forever, but it reduce her movement. Lokis last much longer. Arcane trickery last also longer is especially easy to activate for Ash. Octavias breaks the invisibility in every way (recastable, high duration, makes alias invisibel). The one or other would argument, that Ash isn't supposed to be always invisbel. That might be true, because Ash has absurdly tanky stats. for a stealth frame, but imo I would favor it, that Ash either gets something which let's him withstand more damage or makes him invisbel. Something between is just a weaker version of both. (Or a version for beginners who tends to run into the enemy fire, while being invisibel.)

Teleport: It's buggy and it need a augment to fix it. It doesn't even have free teleportation, like Novas womhole or Nezhas telepo-fire-ing. Nothing more to say.

Bladestorm: Does it have high damage? Yes. Does it cost little energy? Yes. Is there a Situation, where it's needed to kill a jusr few targets with thousends of damage, instead of many at once? No, because everything can be killed faster with a melee weapon or is so weak, that any other aoe-frame is much much faster at killing.

Overall is Ash a frame focused on high single target damage (in a game where no high prioraty targets exists) with an idendity crisis, if he should just be invisibel or if he can tank the damage. He has also the problem that his abilities doesn't do what someone would expect from their name. (Smokebomb doesn't produce a cloud; teleport doesn't have free teleportation) Actually I don't know why he is my main frame. There's is so much wrong with him, but somehow I still use him in almost every mission.

 

Why Hydroid is top tier

  • Tempest Barrage is a nice CC ability and most important it can reduce the armor of enemies with the augment.
  • Tidal Surge allows Hydroid to move a group of enemies to a choosen point while also knocking them down. It Augment makes his alias and himself also immun to status effects.
  • Undertow makes hydroid invincible. As long as he has enough energy (which isn't hard, in todays time with arcane energize) nothing can kill him. It's also possible to switch places by using his second skill. And most important it does scaling damage.
    • My favourite Combination
      1. Use your highest damage weapon and use the adhesive blast mod
      2. Use his third skill 
      3. Use his first skill with the augment on your position
      4. Pick a few enemies and enjoy the dead cries of your enemies.
      • explanation: The first skill reduce (thanks to it's augment) the enemy armor by 80%. Undertow does also absorb incoming damage and that's why it's important to use the special explosion mod to increase the damage.
  • The fourth skill ignore the armor of the enemies and is also a good CC ability. Most important it does also double the loot (Augment) which is important for life-support and energy.

Overall is Hydroid one of the best frames ingame, because he can deal huge amount of damage, has good CC, is invincible and most important he increase the loot which fits perfect to his pirate theme. Hydroid is also extremly easy to play, because the only button which has to be used (after the preperationn) are 1 for recasting tempest barrage and the lmb to pick some enemies.

Before you fall for this trap:

Ash problem isn't that he is weak, or useless. His problem is that he is boring/ non interactive to play. And that he is an two ability frame.

 

Edited by ES-Flinter
Hydroid trap
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5 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

I could write you a text-wall, why you are wrong (Seriously, look at Ash passive/ damage type and google what slash damage does ignore) ... So here comes the wall.

Shuriken: You are right about that this ability, becomes a useful 100% armor stripper with the augment. But the problem is that it doesn't matter for Ash. All of his abilities deal slash/ true damage and like we all know does slash/ true damage ignore armor. fn the augment would remove the enemy shield it would be different, because this is the only things which prevents Ash from killing his targets. Last but not least is the damage of both shuriken combinded to low to be useful and let's not forget that one shuriken cost 12,5 energy, while one Bs-mark only 12 (6 if invisibel). And yes I know that it should have punchtrough, but it does never work. (maybe once in 10 times). Oh and did I mention the accuracy of the shurikens?

Smoke bomb: While this ability make Ash immortal it's actually the weakest of it's kind. Ivara last forever, but it reduce her movement. Lokis last much longer. Arcane trickery last also longer is especially easy to activate for Ash. Octavias breaks the invisibility in every way (recastable, high duration, makes alias invisibel). The one or other would argument, that Ash isn't supposed to be always invisbel. That might be true, because Ash has absurdly tanky stats. for a stealth frame, but imo I would favor it, that Ash either gets something which let's him withstand more damage or makes him invisbel. Something between is just a weaker version of both. (Or a version for beginners who tends to run into the enemy fire, while being invisibel.)

Teleport: It's buggy and it need a augment to fix it. It doesn't even have free teleportation, like Novas womhole or Nezhas telepo-fire-ing. Nothing more to say.

Bladestorm: Does it have high damage? Yes. Does it cost little energy? Yes. Is there a Situation, where it's needed to kill a jusr few targets with thousends of damage, instead of many at once? No, because everything can be killed faster with a melee weapon or is so weak, that any other aoe-frame is much much faster at killing.

Overall is Ash a frame focused on high single target damage (in a game where no high prioraty targets exists) with an idendity crisis, if he should just be invisibel or if he can tank the damage. He has also the problem that his abilities doesn't do what someone would expect from their name. (Smokebomb doesn't produce a cloud; teleport doesn't have free teleportation) Actually I don't know why he is my main frame. There's is so much wrong with him, but somehow I still use him in almost every mission.

True damage ignores armor. Slash damage, and the Bleed status effect from it, are 2 different things. Only the bleed ignores armor. Run Toxin on your melee to help Ash deal with shielded units. Bosses and heavily armored AOE units like Bombards are the biggest reason that armor stripping is important. The latter is an example of a high priority target, btw. I have no idea what your on about the accuracy of Shuriken though.

Smokescreen has a cloud, it stuns enemies in a 10m radius in fact, and is incredibly useful. The only downside it once had was not being able to cast mid-air. Thankfully that’s no longer the case. The duration is shorter than Loki’s because it costs 35 rather than 50. Straight up the stun makes up for the lower duration and then some. Once upon a time before Bladestorm’s rework I ran low duration on Ash just to be able to stun more often. Prowl’s movement penalty is a big factor in both Loki and Ash being favored over Ivara. Trickery is an Arcane, and arguably is best with Ash anyway. Octavia is Octavia, and she’s simply one of the best frames in the game. However that doesn’t make other frames bad by comparison. Nor does it reproach the truism of invis being one of the best tools of any kit that features it. Whether it’s “best in class” among other instances, doesn’t alter just how good being invisible is. 

If Teleport could be used without an enemy to target, players would complain about it missing when the enemy moved before they activated the skill. Luckily movement in Warframe today is very fast thanks to both updated parkour and the addition of melee slam attacks. Admittedly I’d like Teleport’s animation to be faster on the back end and/or it have a small, short duration AOE stun on impact similar to Smoke Screen. Nevertheless any tweaks would only need to be minor. 

I confess I liked Blade Storm better pre-rework, but it was broken as hell. I do find it clunky at present, but I believe the upcoming change of targets getting 3 marks at once will make it more user friendly with a smoother set up. It’s possible melee might kill faster even then. Let’s be honest though, melee is all gas and no break right now killing more efficiently than most things. 

Ash is good, and if anything only in need of a few tweaks (some, like to Blade Storm, are on the way) to be solidly tier A. While he is not Mesa, Saryn, Limbo or Octavia for example. Without hesitation, having invis alone places him above several frames. Seriously it’s that powerful. Still even being an Ash fan, who bought him day one when I started. I firmly believe there are many frames who need love more than Ash right now.

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