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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


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vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

True damage ignores armor. Slash damage, and the Bleed status effect from it, are 2 different things. Only the bleed ignores armor. Run Toxin on your melee to help Ash deal with shielded units. Bosses and heavily armored AOE units like Bombards are the biggest reason that armor stripping is important. The latter is an example of a high priority target, btw. I have no idea what your on about the accuracy of Shuriken though.

Allow me to correct myself. 2 out of 3 damage abilties from Ash deal true damage and ignore armor. But one unmodded shuriken deal about 2400 damage (500slash+ 1900bleed). That's only 21% of the complete damage which will be reduced by the enemy armore, so it's actual: "2,79 out of 3 damage abilities from Ash deal true damage and ignore armor."

I don't count bombards (and other normal bigger hp units) as high priority targets, because they die just as fast as other enemies and do very rarely become dangerous. Imo are the only high priority targets ingame juggernauts, ancient infested, some eximus and the sentients. (I have to correct myself again. There are some high priority targets ingame, except bosses) But ancient/ eximus can easily be killed with slash procs and juggernouts/ sentients only appear once per mission/ once per hour in survival missions (Btw. aren't they both complete immune to status effects?). in sum is seeking shuriken only needed against two enemies which rarely appear (railjack mission not included).

About the accuracy. Quote from the wiki (12.11.2020; 09:32 am MEZ):"Shuriken can be used to seek out nearby hidden enemies due to its homing feature.

  • However, Shuriken will often try to seek enemies that you've run past, making it miss both the enemy you ran past and the target you were trying to hit."
vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

Run Toxin on your melee to help Ash deal with shielded units.

And that's why a shield removing augment would be more useful, because armor is the last thing which Ash has to care about (Thanks to his passive).

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

Smokescreen has a cloud, it stuns enemies in a 10m radius in fact, and is incredibly useful. The only downside it once had was not being able to cast mid-air. Thankfully that’s no longer the case. The duration is shorter than Loki’s because it costs 35 rather than 50. Straight up the stun makes up for the lower duration and then some. Once upon a time before Bladestorm’s rework I ran low duration on Ash just to be able to stun more often. Prowl’s movement penalty is a big factor in both Loki and Ash being favored over Ivara. Trickery is an Arcane, and arguably is best with Ash anyway. Octavia is Octavia, and she’s simply one of the best frames in the game. However that doesn’t make other frames bad by comparison. Nor does it reproach the truism of invis being one of the best tools of any kit that features it. Whether it’s “best in class” among other instances, doesn’t alter just how good being invisible is. 

The cloud doesn't do anything except to exist. It can't even reduce the enemies los. While the stun radius is neat it's actually never useful, because the stun last only about three seconds (doesn't open enemies for finishers) and the ability isn't recastable. Btw. who is risking his life to run into a group of enemies only to recast his invisibility instead of just jumping into the air (or an other safe spot) like everyone else?

While you are right about, that smoke screen cost less energy and has about the same invisibility duration per energy as Loki invisibility ability it's still the worse choice of them both. Loki can stay 12s in combat without making a pause, while Ash only 8s. It's make rarely a differce, but especially in spy mission is a higher invisibilirty duration favoured. And let's not forget that we live in a world with endless energy.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

If Teleport could be used without an enemy to target, players would complain about it missing when the enemy moved before they activated the skill. Luckily movement in Warframe today is very fast thanks to both updated parkour and the addition of melee slam attacks. Admittedly I’d like Teleport’s animation to be faster on the back end and/or it have a small, short duration AOE stun on impact similar to Smoke Screen. Nevertheless any tweaks would only need to be minor.

So instead of buffing a skill (free teleportation and teleport stuns everthing in a certain range), it's better to listen to the players who don't want to learn that all they have to do is to target the floor instead of the enemy to prevent "miss-teleportating"?

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

I confess I liked Blade Storm better pre-rework, but it was broken as hell. I do find it clunky at present, but I believe the upcoming change of targets getting 3 marks at once will make it more user friendly with a smoother set up. It’s possible melee might kill faster even then. Let’s be honest though, melee is all gas and no break right now killing more efficiently than most things. 

I'm afraid that the changes could turn Ash into a press4towin frame again, but hopefully I'm just worrying to much.

Truth to be told I would like it, if Ash third and fourth ability get merged (click teleport, hold bladestorm) and he get a complete new fourth ability. Preferable an one-hit ability, where the base range can be increased under special requirements.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

Ash is good, and if anything only in need of a few tweaks (some, like to Blade Storm, are on the way) to be solidly tier A. While he is not Mesa, Saryn, Limbo or Octavia for example. Without hesitation, having invis alone places him above several frames. Seriously it’s that powerful. Still even being an Ash fan, who bought him day one when I started. I firmly believe there are many frames who need love more than Ash right now.

I would say that Ash only "works" (change the meta and he is ~d-tier again). A good frame has imo four useful abilities with some strengths ans weaknesses, but isn't perfect. Best example is the good old Vauban. Vaubans third ability needs some qol enhancements, but in the end it's useful to kill many weak enemies at once. Perfect frame are imo Gauss, Nidus, Wisp, Harrow, ?Saryn?. OP are only Trinity and Octavia.

I agree with you that there are many other frames that need much more love than Ash. Especially frames like Hydroid, Nyx, Hydroid, Inaros, Hydroid, Chroma Hydroid,... and Hydroid.

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18 hours ago, (PSN)lydon123 said:

Of all the frames that could use some work. I would never of thought that someone would be writing walls of text describing every tiny detail why ash needs a rework or tune up. His kit is solid and he does a lot of things really well. 

Even though it takes an augment, his 1 is reliable armor strip and you only need 1 power strength mod to achieve 100% strip

His smoke screen is basically immortality, especially with shield gating and stealth damage multipliers.

His teleport is my least liked ability and i usually replace it. The augment is fun but it's meh

His 4 scales really high and can comfortably kill steel path enemies

There are plenty of positives to ash and he is still very much used. I believe less popular frames need more attention then ash. Frames like grendel, banshee and nyx.

You say it like that`s wrong, if your fav frame got a nerf you wouldn`t like it, The reason I did this is coz when I say this to ppl they don`t believe me so I`m showing evidence by presenting his issues, stats and things you can try yourself.

You`re proving my point, you never mentioned shuriken being good on it`s own just with the augment.

With the 2nd ability I don`t have an issue with the duration but it could better on the cc side.

You saying you would replace it, that says it all.

Again you`re proving my point, your talking about damage and a high-level mission, warframe abilities should work no matter where you are.

Yes he has positives but not "plenty" like the plenty of negatives I've listed about him, plus my post shows how unpopular he is and as for which frame needs a look over 1st, in 2018 DE looked at Ash, Hydroid, Ember, Volt, Chroma, Banshee (augment) and more which is over 6, plus Nyx and Titania one year, Ember and Vauban last year, this is proof that it can be done so if they have done it milti times, they can do it again.

 

16 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

-snip-

Thank you for saying this and for mentioning things I haven't. Have you noticed that the ppl that disagree with Ash getting a look over always talk about his damage? 

 

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19 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Allow me to correct myself. 2 out of 3 damage abilties from Ash deal true damage and ignore armor. But one unmodded shuriken deal about 2400 damage (500slash+ 1900bleed). That's only 21% of the complete damage which will be reduced by the enemy armore, so it's actual: "2,79 out of 3 damage abilities from Ash deal true damage and ignore armor."

I don't count bombards (and other normal bigger hp units) as high priority targets, because they die just as fast as other enemies and do very rarely become dangerous. Imo are the only high priority targets ingame juggernauts, ancient infested, some eximus and the sentients. (I have to correct myself again. There are some high priority targets ingame, except bosses) But ancient/ eximus can easily be killed with slash procs and juggernouts/ sentients only appear once per mission/ once per hour in survival missions (Btw. aren't they both complete immune to status effects?). in sum is seeking shuriken only needed against two enemies which rarely appear (railjack mission not included).

About the accuracy. Quote from the wiki (12.11.2020; 09:32 am MEZ):"Shuriken can be used to seek out nearby hidden enemies due to its homing feature.

  • However, Shuriken will often try to seek enemies that you've run past, making it miss both the enemy you ran past and the target you were trying to hit."

And that's why a shield removing augment would be more useful, because armor is the last thing which Ash has to care about (Thanks to his passive).

The cloud doesn't do anything except to exist. It can't even reduce the enemies los. While the stun radius is neat it's actually never useful, because the stun last only about three seconds (doesn't open enemies for finishers) and the ability isn't recastable. Btw. who is risking his life to run into a group of enemies only to recast his invisibility instead of just jumping into the air (or an other safe spot) like everyone else?

While you are right about, that smoke screen cost less energy and has about the same invisibility duration per energy as Loki invisibility ability it's still the worse choice of them both. Loki can stay 12s in combat without making a pause, while Ash only 8s. It's make rarely a differce, but especially in spy mission is a higher invisibilirty duration favoured. And let's not forget that we live in a world with endless energy.

So instead of buffing a skill (free teleportation and teleport stuns everthing in a certain range), it's better to listen to the players who don't want to learn that all they have to do is to target the floor instead of the enemy to prevent "miss-teleportating"?

I'm afraid that the changes could turn Ash into a press4towin frame again, but hopefully I'm just worrying to much.

Truth to be told I would like it, if Ash third and fourth ability get merged (click teleport, hold bladestorm) and he get a complete new fourth ability. Preferable an one-hit ability, where the base range can be increased under special requirements.

I would say that Ash only "works" (change the meta and he is ~d-tier again). A good frame has imo four useful abilities with some strengths ans weaknesses, but isn't perfect. Best example is the good old Vauban. Vaubans third ability needs some qol enhancements, but in the end it's useful to kill many weak enemies at once. Perfect frame are imo Gauss, Nidus, Wisp, Harrow, ?Saryn?. OP are only Trinity and Octavia.

I agree with you that there are many other frames that need much more love than Ash. Especially frames like Hydroid, Nyx, Hydroid, Inaros, Hydroid, Chroma Hydroid,... and Hydroid.

I'm not going to bother replying to all this. It'll just get met with more semantics. It seems you want to force Ash and into all mission types, but balance isn't about making every frame good in every mission. Sometimes you need to reach for the right tool for the job. I mean you mention Spy missions...my dude Limbo exists and unmodded with 0 forma he is far and away better than Loki or Ash at Spy.

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В 02.11.2020 в 06:40, (PSN)Vexx757 сказал:

Make Ash great again.

Hi Vexx, I think you can remember me. I've been a fan of your posts about Ash, because I'm in the same boat with you. You even commented on almost (if not all) of my posts, and all of them were about Ash.

 

As you may probably know, DE have "listened to" players and now they're about to give us an ability to mark enemies 3 times instantly. *Maniacal laugher*

This is just one of dozens of his problems that you listed on November 2nd. I've read all of your posts, so no need to tell me what you want and what you think, I know, because I've also played Ash since I started playing the game back in the summer 2018. I have 1335 hours in the game and 50,5% out of them are on Ash... I know only one person who've played on him more than 675 hours. His name is Ashley_Riot and he has 3000+ hours and he used to have 53% on Ash. The closed beta player btw. Over 1600 hours on Ash. He's the only one who is crazier than me when to comes to this warframe. And he is still (hopefully) using BS, as I can tell by the amount of kills he has (lol he has 160k kills after 7 years and I have 157k after just ~2 years). I'm the most dedicated BS Ash main. I've never seen anyone having neither more hours nor more kills than me outside of Ashley_Riot. You have no idea how much time I've spent with this warframe... I absolutely agree with everything that you've said in your posts and I understand your suffering better than anyone, because I've been using ONLY Blade Storm for killing enemies for almost 2 years in a row. My power has significantly improved during this period, and despite people complain that he can't deal damage... I'm capable of dealing 364093 damage to steel path enemies while staying alive even without a helminth. I've unlocked it though, and now... With Banshee's Silence and its augment I can deal 3619089 damage. With all 3 marks I've finally crossed my borderline I was dreaming about - over 10 million damage. Blade Storm can deal MILLIONS OF DAMAGE!!! And I've been on solo survival, the level I've reached was 4347, but that happened almost a year ago, yet nothing but my damage has changed. I can survive with a very short duration that most people will claim as absolutely unusable - 5,4 seconds of Smoke Screen. I've perfected my marking mechanic and now I just swipe from the right to the left (of in the opposite way) and mark enemies not more than once. I've also learned how to mark the entire rooms with a few moves. I can officially say that I've mastered Ash's Blade Storm. And I guess that you understand what I feel when it comes to the Ash discussion.

 

Fine, DE are giving us an ability to instantly mark enemies 3 times. But if the energy cost is tripled, I'll f**king kill them. This change is absolutely not enough. If they're doing small tweaks, that's a good beginning, but Chroma and Ash don't need their abilities to be tweaked. They must get completely changed. I agree with you about shuriken problems, about the problems of teleport and even smoke screen, but DE just don't look at their forums at all. Personally, to make me use Shuriken instead of Blade Storm which deals over 10 million damage, they must create a second Whipclaw out of it. It's a garbage ability, even with an augment. Why would you even turn Ash into a melee user when you have 50m range ability (20m silence range to deal 10M dmg though, but still). You know what? I know why DE don't want to buff BS any further. Because if they do, they will make it back to afk kills resulting in afk farming. They don't want us to press the button and watch a movie out of our enemies' innards. And why? Because we still have an ability to use teleport to JOIN blade Storm. I know how to solve the problem with BS! Just remove this mode, give us 3 clones instead of 2 that we have now, triple the damage and remove marks completely, and make it like so: we activate ability and as soon as we look at the enemy the clone will attack it. If you look at all the map you won't have to press the button again, enemies will already be attacked by clones as soon as you make an eye contact with them. Range can remain the same, we have silence making our 50 meters inefficient and forcing us to come closer, 20m is our best. With the insane amount of damage that Ash can deal and this new system this will absolutely not make him overpowered, because almost no one has ever built for Blade Storm, so I'm one of 2 people I know who have discovered the 10 million damage potential. That will also resolve the problem with afk kills, since you won't be able to become invulnerable anymore. How about Smoke Screen duration? Praise the Arcane Trickery! (actually helpful, I use it all the time). Fix the damn bugs with clones, and that will be completely fine. As you can see, I haven't said anything about Shuriken being weak without an augment, about Smoke Screen ending during the invulnerability period while joining BS (because I'd like it to get removed) and about the teleport, which is quite a useless ability itself, even with an augment, until there's a tough enemy vulnerable for finishers, but... Too slow. Actually I want some small changes to the Smoke Screen. Ash has a short stun on this skill which we mostly don't even notice, but if you make it into an ACTUAL THROWN SMOKE BOMB, this will be really powerful. This smoke will keep the enemies stunned, while the cloud left after explosion will have fixed 8s duration. If you stand in this cloud, you and your allies will be invisible. And only after you leave it, the invisibility timer will begin. As his augment for making allies invisible will become useless, I'd like it to proc viral on enemies affected by Smoke Screen. Would be very nice addition for those who don't mind losing 298% strength even if they have Nukor. I mean, for me it's a waste slot, but it's at least much better than before. As for Shuriken and Teleport... I don't want to think. Do something with these abilities, they're useless with BS and Smoke Screen. That's it. Also, message me in game please, my nickname is Aohira. Wanna talk with you out of forums as well.

Make Ash great again.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Aohira:

I've also played Ash since I started playing the game back in the summer 2018. I have 1335 hours in the game and 50,5% out of them are on Ash... I know only one person who've played on him more than 675 hours. His name is Ashley_Riot and he has 3000+ hours and he used to have 53% on Ash. The closed beta player btw. Over 1600 hours on Ash. He's the only one who is crazier than me when to comes to this warframe. And he is still (hopefully) using BS, as I can tell by the amount of kills he has (lol he has 160k kills after 7 years and I have 157k after just ~2 years). I'm the most dedicated BS Ash main. I've never seen anyone having neither more hours nor more kills than me outside of Ashley_Riot.

157k ability kills in two years is impressive. Compared to you I have just a bit more than the half (90k). But against to you I never really liked to use bladestorm. I'm more a fan of killing my enemies with my melee weapon (preferred with a quick stealth attack). 

About your game time with Ash. 675 hours is much. But compared to me you have just the half of my playtime (1388h). And I know that Sweatsharp has also around 1000k hours with Ash. Vexx has probably also already hitted the 1000hours mark. But I have to admit, that I have much less than Asley_Riot.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

I'm not going to bother replying to all this. It'll just get met with more semantics. It seems you want to force Ash and into all mission types, but balance isn't about making every frame good in every mission. Sometimes you need to reach for the right tool for the job. I mean you mention Spy missions...my dude Limbo exists and unmodded with 0 forma he is far and away better than Loki or Ash at Spy.

I don't want Ash to be good at everything (like Octavia). I just want him to have useful skills. Why should I use his shuriken if bladestorm is better in every way? Why should I use teleport if there's no enemy who is so dangerous that he needs to be executed now? Why should I spend energy for bladestorm, if it's faster to kill the enemies with my melee weapon?

Last but not least are the times where every frame was just good for one thing over. There is a reason, why frames like Nova, Gauss, Titania, Saryn, Gara, Rhino, Harrow, Xaku, Nidus, Volt and even Excalibur are prefered. They are all allrounder. They can do one thing excelent and the rest medicore, unlike Ash who is just good at killing and bad at everything else.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (PSN)dday3six:

Sometimes you need to reach for the right tool for the job. I mean you mention Spy missions...my dude Limbo exists and unmodded with 0 forma he is far and away better than Loki or Ash at Spy.

You compare Limbos spy abilities with that of Loki? You know that Loki can use switch teleport with his decoy and unlike Limbo he doesn't has to be afraid to be detected by a camera.

Oh and there exist wukong.^^

Edited by ES-Flinter
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3 hours ago, Aohira said:

-snip-

 

Flipping neck! you`ve written a lot here. I`ll try to talk about some things you said as best as I can.

 

There person you mentioned, have you told him about both of my Ash posts? Since it sounds like he`s an Ash main, I would like to hear what he thinks to his issues and my solutions to them, whether he agree with it or not.

The changes that he`s getting dose nothing because the marking mechanic is still there the only thing that it addresses that I have mentioned is that it will show how many enemies are effected by bs instead of marks, as long as the marking mechanic is still there, the activation speed will still be too slow and other ppl will be able to take his kill which are the biggest issues he faces.

Yes, chroma and Ash do need a lot more than QOL changes but compared to the two Chroma got the better end.

I don`t want his shuriken to rely on melee weapons, even through I sound like a hypercrit from what I said on the post my ideas only take critical damage from melee, me personally I don`t like weapons that rely on melee weapons coz (for me) I don`t get the choice to have fun with both melee and ability coz if you want your ability to be effective ppl are going pick the weapon with the best stats to help the ability, i`d rather either have it affected by the combo multi or just increase its base damage.  

Me personally I think the way you cast ss should stay as it is, it`s not necessary to add that when you can just run into enemies and cast it, As for the viral part if you remember on my other post I mentioned that as an augment that elemental damage on the smoke will be determined by what you use on your melee weapon but just to add something new, if you have no elementals on the weapon it will increase the damage debuff and the duration of the smoke stun.

Also, just to ask did you sign my petition on Ash?

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So, you Ash-enthusiasts, what do you think of my ideas then (full list in spoiler)?

Spoiler

PASSIVE:
On top of the bleedbonus, it's expanded to also let him see bleeding enemies through walls (similar to Codex scanning silhouettes)

SHURIKEN:

  • ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
    • To give Shuriken a baseline, non-augmented use, I'd propose to add this "ability bleed execution" effect on it:
      • At any time when an enemy is bleeding from Shuriken, if the bleed-damage of Shuriken (and Bladestorm!) is currently enough to kill the enemy, all this bleed-damage is dealt instantly, killing the target
    • Shurikens also stagger (impact-proc) the struck enemies, or instead maybe briefly stun them (same animation as opening for finishers)?
  • CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
    • Tapcast = Throw 1 shuriken which bounces over to 1/2/2/3 additional targets. Homing range is affected by Ability Range. Prioritizes to bounce to unaffected targets first.
    • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Throw 1 shuriken which travels straight forward, which has 1/2/2/3 meter punchthrough and "razor ashes" added to it, which expands its horizontal hitbox (but only for striking enemies, not the environment) by about 1 meter. Punchthrough and ash-width are affected by Ability Range.

SMOKE SCREEN:

  • ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
    • Also leaves a lingering smoke cloud on the cast location with very low opacity (so it doesn't block ally vision).  This cloud has multiple effects:
      • Blocks enemy line-of-sight, capable of forcing them to enter the cloud.
      • Once an enemy enters the cloud, it can only see in a 2 meter radius and they have a 50% chance to miss their attacks (melee included).
      • The cloud's duration is the same as Ash's invisibility (2/4/6/8 seconds)
  • CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
    • Recasting the ability midduration removes the invisibility from Ash (but keeps the lingering cloud), which allows him to recast the ability again.
    • Using the recasting effect allows Ash to place more than one cloud at once. Max 2 clouds can exist though (recasting again when 2 clouds are already out removes the oldest one first).
  • AUGMENT CHANGES:
    • Whenever an ally enters the lingering cloud, they gain invisibility for 30/50/70/100% of the cloud's remaining duration. (Note: Even if Ash removes the cloud via recasting after they have grabbed the invisibility, they still keep their invisibility)
    • Additionally increases the range of Smoke Screen by 15/25/35/50%.

TELEPORT:

  • ADDITIONAL EFFECTS:
    • In addition to its current effects, it also opens enemies up to finishers in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius around the landing location (moddable with Ability Range).
    • General "open to finisher" effect (this is not just for Ash): If an enemy has been the subject of any attack or ability which opens them to finishers, they now get a symbol over them (similar to the Parazon's Mercy), which indicates that they are now eligible for finishers. What this means is that even if the enemy doesn't get into the stun-animation, you are still able to use a finisher on them! This effect could last for about 4 seconds or so.
      • Note: If an enemy has both a regular finisher symbol on them, and the Parazon's Mercy on them, the Mercy-execution takes priority.
  • CASTING OPTIONS / CHANGES:
    • Tapcast = Same as now (i.e. it requires a target). However, it can now target allies or enemies through walls, if they are visible/highlighted. Note the synergy with his expanded passive and Shuriken's capability to travel through walls, in particular!
    • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Allows Ash to teleport forward without a target, up to 20/40/45/60 meters (does not pass environment though).
      • If you teleport to a wall, he will automatically cling to it, with 1 second bonus to the wall-cling duration. You can let go of the wall-cling by just tapping your aim-button.

BLADESTORM:

  • MECHANICAL CASTING CHANGES:
    • Very heavily changed how it is cast. It no longer uses the manual marking system, but rather like this:
      • Upon cast, Ash marks up to 8/10/12/15 enemies who are within line of sight in a 360 degree manner, and within a 10/12/15/20 meter radius (moddable with Ability Range). If an enemy is highlighted through a wall, it's considered to be within line of sight (they ofc still abide to the radius limit).
      • Each enemy get 3 marks on them, and the clones start attacking immediately.
      • Cannot recast or cancel the ability while its taking place, it needs to finish first (This is not new, just emphasizing this point)
      • The ability now shows how many enemies are marked, rather than how many marks are placed
      • The ability now costs 100 energy, regardless of many enemies are marked.
  • CASTING OPTIONS:
    • Tapcast = Only sends out his 2 clones to attack the enemies
    • Holdcast (for 0,5 seconds) = Sends out the 2 clones and Ash joining immediately
    • Holdcast midduration = If only the clones were sent out (i.e. a tapcast), Ash can join them by holdcasting midduration, if he is withing 20/40/45/60 meters of at least one of the marked enemies.
  • EFFECT CHANGES:
    • If Ash is invisible upon casting Bladestorm, so are his clones.
    • If an enemy is bleeding and within range of Bladestorm's radius, it gains a special visual effect on it to indicate that they are within its effect-range.

 

So there. What this means is:

  • Bladestorm is no longer a hassle with its marking mechanic. But, it now requires him to be in the midst of combat instead.
  • Teleport allows him to quickly position himself - such as in the midst of a clump of enemies, to for example cast Bladestorm on them
  • Smoke Screen allows him to safely BE in the midst of a clump of enemies, while also being a good general survivability tool - now also more helpful for the team (augmented or not)
  • Shuriken has two new strong roles: 1) Making enemies bleed through walls allows him to expose unseen enemies (perfect for Bladestorm and/or Teleport) and 2) It quickens enemies' death with its "ability bleed execution" effect, far more so if it's combined with Bladestorm!

TL;DR:

  • Passive is expanded to also let him see silhouettes of enemies through walls if they are bleeding
  • Shuriken has a "bleed-burst" effect on enemies, causing the entire bleed-effect from Shuriken and Bladestorm to be dealt at once if their bleeds are enough to kill them.
  • Smoke Screen leaves a lingering cloud which provides some extra utility (LoS-block, slightly better CC)
  • Teleport causes an finisher-opening in an AoE (now a consistent effect via a new finisher-opener-debuff) around its landing point, it can be heldcast to teleport forward without a target, and you can teleport to allies/enemies through walls if you see their silhouettes (see his passive)
  • Bladestorm is now an PBAoE cast (think Avalanche and such, but needs to see enemies in a 360 degree field- silhouettes via passive is enough), the clones start attacking immediately (and Ash too, if wanted, via holdcast), and it always costs 100 energy.

Basicly: Bladestorm is the close/medium range AoE-killer, Shuriken expedites killing processes and aids at longer ranges and helps finding enemies (mainly for Teleport and/or Bladestorm), Smoke Screen is survivability and CC-utility, Teleport is mobility and/or for killing the heaviest of targets.

Edited by Azamagon
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On 2020-11-11 at 9:23 PM, ES-Flinter said:

I could write you a text-wall, why you are wrong (Seriously, look at Ash passive/ damage type and google what slash damage does ignore), but instead i'm going to play a game with you. Edit: It turns out that my game won't work, because I missunderstood Hydroids third ability. So here comes the wall.

Shuriken: You are right about that this ability, becomes a useful 100% armor stripper with the augment. But the problem is that it doesn't matter for Ash. All of his abilities deal slash/ true damage and like we all know does slash/ true damage ignore armor. fn the augment would remove the enemy shield it would be different, because this is the only things which prevents Ash from killing his targets. Last but not least is the damage of both shuriken combinded to low to be useful and let's not forget that one shuriken cost 12,5 energy, while one Bs-mark only 12 (6 if invisibel). And yes I know that it should have punchtrough, but it does never work. (maybe once in 10 times). Oh and did I mention the accuracy of the shurikens?

Smoke bomb: While this ability make Ash immortal it's actually the weakest of it's kind. Ivara last forever, but it reduce her movement. Lokis last much longer. Arcane trickery last also longer is especially easy to activate for Ash. Octavias breaks the invisibility in every way (recastable, high duration, makes alias invisibel). The one or other would argument, that Ash isn't supposed to be always invisbel. That might be true, because Ash has absurdly tanky stats. for a stealth frame, but imo I would favor it, that Ash either gets something which let's him withstand more damage or makes him invisbel. Something between is just a weaker version of both. (Or a version for beginners who tends to run into the enemy fire, while being invisibel.)

Teleport: It's buggy and it need a augment to fix it. It doesn't even have free teleportation, like Novas womhole or Nezhas telepo-fire-ing. Nothing more to say.

Bladestorm: Does it have high damage? Yes. Does it cost little energy? Yes. Is there a Situation, where it's needed to kill a jusr few targets with thousends of damage, instead of many at once? No, because everything can be killed faster with a melee weapon or is so weak, that any other aoe-frame is much much faster at killing.

Overall is Ash a frame focused on high single target damage (in a game where no high prioraty targets exists) with an idendity crisis, if he should just be invisibel or if he can tank the damage. He has also the problem that his abilities doesn't do what someone would expect from their name. (Smokebomb doesn't produce a cloud; teleport doesn't have free teleportation) Actually I don't know why he is my main frame. There's is so much wrong with him, but somehow I still use him in almost every mission.

 

Why Hydroid is top tier

  • Tempest Barrage is a nice CC ability and most important it can reduce the armor of enemies with the augment.
  • Tidal Surge allows Hydroid to move a group of enemies to a choosen point while also knocking them down. It Augment makes his alias and himself also immun to status effects.
  • Undertow makes hydroid invincible. As long as he has enough energy (which isn't hard, in todays time with arcane energize) nothing can kill him. It's also possible to switch places by using his second skill. And most important it does scaling damage.
    • My favourite Combination
      1. Use your highest damage weapon and use the adhesive blast mod
      2. Use his third skill 
      3. Use his first skill with the augment on your position
      4. Pick a few enemies and enjoy the dead cries of your enemies.
      • explanation: The first skill reduce (thanks to it's augment) the enemy armor by 80%. Undertow does also absorb incoming damage and that's why it's important to use the special explosion mod to increase the damage.
  • The fourth skill ignore the armor of the enemies and is also a good CC ability. Most important it does also double the loot (Augment) which is important for life-support and energy.

Overall is Hydroid one of the best frames ingame, because he can deal huge amount of damage, has good CC, is invincible and most important he increase the loot which fits perfect to his pirate theme. Hydroid is also extremly easy to play, because the only button which has to be used (after the preperationn) are 1 for recasting tempest barrage and the lmb to pick some enemies.

Before you fall for this trap:

Ash problem isn't that he is weak, or useless. His problem is that he is boring/ non interactive to play. And that he is an two ability frame.

 

Not sure if you knew this about true damage but most eximus units are resistant to it. You can check for yourself at the bottom of the wiki page for true damage. Also units like the nox and deimos jugulas have damage resistant to true damage. This seems to also be true for demolition units. All of a sudden a steel path nox or even just a high level normal nox can't simply be dealt with by true damage and this is where the armor strip from his 1 really starts to shine. 

It may be the weakest of its kind in your opinion but immortality is still immortality and i'd rather have the mobility over ivara's slower invis.

No argument there with teleport. It is pretty meh

Many Aoe frames don't hold a candle to the damage his 4 offers, especially on higher levels. You said it yourself, that it ignores armor (apart from the damage resistances i've mentioned above), which is a very reliable source of damage. You are correct, you can just melee but that's true for most frames.

Overall I'm not disagreeing with you on many of your points but I feel there is some value to his current set up that is being swept under the rug. Players who understand certain enemy resistances really appreciate his shirken augment. I was never wrong ;) opinions are subjective. 

There are single high priority targetsin the game. Demolition targets are literally high priority targets you need to kill or fail the mission...also something ash excels at.

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On 2020-11-12 at 1:55 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

You say it like that`s wrong, if your fav frame got a nerf you wouldn`t like it, The reason I did this is coz when I say this to ppl they don`t believe me so I`m showing evidence by presenting his issues, stats and things you can try yourself.

You`re proving my point, you never mentioned shuriken being good on it`s own just with the augment.

With the 2nd ability I don`t have an issue with the duration but it could better on the cc side.

You saying you would replace it, that says it all.

Again you`re proving my point, your talking about damage and a high-level mission, warframe abilities should work no matter where you are.

Yes he has positives but not "plenty" like the plenty of negatives I've listed about him, plus my post shows how unpopular he is and as for which frame needs a look over 1st, in 2018 DE looked at Ash, Hydroid, Ember, Volt, Chroma, Banshee (augment) and more which is over 6, plus Nyx and Titania one year, Ember and Vauban last year, this is proof that it can be done so if they have done it milti times, they can do it again.

 

Nope. Never said it was wrong and i'm not saying, i'm typing over the internet.

Also never said shirken was good without the augment. Shirken is meh without the augment so i agree with you but it's what the augment does that gives it value.

I'm ok with the second ability also. Some better cc is not a bad suggestion.

Yup, not a fan of teleport so of course i'd replace it.

Now this is where our opinions differ what's the point of having all these unique abilities on our frames if they all worked anywhere and everywhere. Its practically impossible anyway. Casting hydroids puddle in a capture is not really going to help me capture the target. So no, blade storm may not work as well on lower missions but for high level content where weapon damage may suffer due to armor then it starts to pick up value pretty fast. 

I never said I don't want ash to be buffed. If he had some buffs and changes I would love it. It does seem he is undervalued to a point and brings more to the table than you may know if you don't know about damage resistances to true damage and how valuable a good armor strip actually is.

Also, it is highly unflattering of character to say such things as ''you are only proving my point''. I am neither proving any of your points nor do I wish my opinions used to indulge your desire for approbation. Thank you :)

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)lydon123:

Not sure if you knew this about true damage but most eximus units are resistant to it. You can check for yourself at the bottom of the wiki page for true damage. Also units like the nox and deimos jugulas have damage resistant to true damage. This seems to also be true for demolition units. All of a sudden a steel path nox or even just a high level normal nox can't simply be dealt with by true damage and this is where the armor strip from his 1 really starts to shine. 

It may be the weakest of its kind in your opinion but immortality is still immortality and i'd rather have the mobility over ivara's slower invis.

No argument there with teleport. It is pretty meh

Many Aoe frames don't hold a candle to the damage his 4 offers, especially on higher levels. You said it yourself, that it ignores armor (apart from the damage resistances i've mentioned above), which is a very reliable source of damage. You are correct, you can just melee but that's true for most frames.

Overall I'm not disagreeing with you on many of your points but I feel there is some value to his current set up that is being swept under the rug. Players who understand certain enemy resistances really appreciate his shirken augment. I was never wrong ;) opinions are subjective. 

There are single high priority targetsin the game. Demolition targets are literally high priority targets you need to kill or fail the mission...also something ash excels at.

I didn't expect an answer like this. I expected something like: "It doesn't make sense to speak to a wall...", but you used good arguments.

Can you give me a day or so to think about a good answer? You did 🤯 my mind.

Btw. The first like is from me.^^

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23 часа назад, (PSN)Vexx757 сказал:

Also, just to ask did you sign my petition on Ash?

No, I didn't know it exists lol.

I only know Ashley_Riot's profile, but I don't have him in friend list in the game sadly. It's also impressive for me that you have more hours on Ash than I do, although I have always been alone with being Ash main, so for me being outplayed by someone else is a strange feeling, but anyway:) I know that the changes we're about to get are just miserable and don't fix even 10% of all the problems that Blade Storm has. Marking mechanic must die.

Yes I remember your augment idea. But I still think that this ability should be a little bit changed. It's technically a smoke bomb, so I want it to act differently. The way I described it will fix the problem with short duration and make stun effect actually useful. Like, I actually do survivals with only 67,5% duration, so I truly have 5,4 seconds of invisibility, because when you build for BS you want as much strength as you can, so duration dies first. As for the augment, that was just an idea and I don't care all that much since I already have a final build.

 

I also don't want to use melee when we basically have a better melee with 50m range, so I use Venka Prime for the maximum damage boost. I don't find Shuriken useful until it comes to disruption lvl10000, but that's it. Same goes for teleport. I can easily survive without using these, so I have Silence instead of Shuriken. They really need to change it and teleport.

 

Btw I always play in public matches. I have max attack speed in my Venka, so my animation is sufficiently fast, so sometimes I can make like two kills with Khora in my team who takes the rest 998 ones:) Yea, that needs to be changed. I'll try searching your petition and sign it, but just in case, send me the link if you can. Thanks for replying btw, it was nice to talk to you. I'm a PC player, so if you can and want, you can message me in game. My nickname is Aohira, as it is everywhere lol.

 

Glory to the Ash!

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В 13.11.2020 в 18:10, ES-Flinter сказал:

157k ability kills in two years is impressive. Compared to you I have just a bit more than the half (90k). But against to you I never really liked to use bladestorm. I'm more a fan of killing my enemies with my melee weapon (preferred with a quick stealth attack). 

About your game time with Ash. 675 hours is much. But compared to me you have just the half of my playtime (1388h). And I know that Sweatsharp has also around 1000k hours with Ash. Vexx has probably also already hitted the 1000hours mark. But I have to admit, that I have much less than Asley_Riot.

I don't want Ash to be good at everything (like Octavia). I just want him to have useful skills. Why should I use his shuriken if bladestorm is better in every way? Why should I use teleport if there's no enemy who is so dangerous that he needs to be executed now? Why should I spend energy for bladestorm, if it's faster to kill the enemies with my melee weapon?

Last but not least are the times where every frame was just good for one thing over. There is a reason, why frames like Nova, Gauss, Titania, Saryn, Gara, Rhino, Harrow, Xaku, Nidus, Volt and even Excalibur are prefered. They are all allrounder. They can do one thing excelent and the rest medicore, unlike Ash who is just good at killing and bad at everything else.

My playtime is 1338 hours total dude. I have 50,5% on my Ash, that's why I said that I've crossed 675 hours on this warframe alone. Also I have over 2600 hours in Steam.

 

Why would you spend energy for Blade Storm? For what else would I spend it for? Besides, with my damage (up to 3619089 with a single mark) I can oneshot most of my enemies, while arcane trickery can lower my cost by half, so it's basically 3,9 energy for oneshot of lvl10000 enemy (yes he oneshots even them on steel path, I think they don't have enough hp to sustain this hit, when I get enough free time, I will check for sure). Melee has limited range, while Blade Storm has 50m (20 to benefit from Silence).

 

As for Ash's reason in the game. He's a dedicated damage dealer and he used to deal with it well. Personally, I prefer to focus on one thing rather than doing multiple ones at the same time. The thing is, if you can't use a certain frame on a few missions where he's bad, it doesn't mean that he's bad. What's bad in dealing damage when the game itself is all about dealing damage?

Edited by Aohira
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Guys, can you stop ignoring my posts here please?

Since you guys seem to think stats matter so much, maybe this will help persuade you a bit:

* Total playtime: 3196 hours (in-game, not in Steam)
* Ash + Ash Prime playtime: 19,5% + 9,4% (so 28,9%, i.e. 923 hours with Ash)
* Got 135,207 kills even though I mostly use melee with him.

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When I play public missions I like to have discussions on warframes and I talk about Ash problems and my solutions and there are ppl that don`t think he needs a lookover and say things like "nobody cares" so here is some proof of ppl that like and support my solutions I have given to Ash Ash`s abilities. 

If you want to see my revisit to Ash, you can check it out here.

 

Spoiler

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (1) part 1 by Aaronj-c

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (1) part 2 by Aaronj-c

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (1) part 3 by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

F2 by Aaronj-c

 

F1 by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

C1 by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

1 Like by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

D1 by Aaronj-c

 

E1 by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

 

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (7) part 2 by Aaronj-c

 

 

Spoiler

 

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (8) by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (9) part 1 by Aaronj-c

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (9) part 2 by Aaronj-c

 

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (9) part 3 by Aaronj-c

 

Spoiler

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (4) part 1 by Aaronj-c

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (4) part 3 by Aaronj-c

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (4) part 2 by Aaronj-c

 

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Am 13.11.2020 um 21:34 schrieb (PSN)lydon123:

Not sure if you knew this about true damage but most eximus units are resistant to it. You can check for yourself at the bottom of the wiki page for true damage. Also units like the nox and deimos jugulas have damage resistant to true damage. This seems to also be true for demolition units. All of a sudden a steel path nox or even just a high level normal nox can't simply be dealt with by true damage and this is where the armor strip from his 1 really starts to shine. 

It may be the weakest of its kind in your opinion but immortality is still immortality and i'd rather have the mobility over ivara's slower invis.

No argument there with teleport. It is pretty meh

Many Aoe frames don't hold a candle to the damage his 4 offers, especially on higher levels. You said it yourself, that it ignores armor (apart from the damage resistances i've mentioned above), which is a very reliable source of damage. You are correct, you can just melee but that's true for most frames.

Overall I'm not disagreeing with you on many of your points but I feel there is some value to his current set up that is being swept under the rug. Players who understand certain enemy resistances really appreciate his shirken augment. I was never wrong ;) opinions are subjective. 

There are single high priority targetsin the game. Demolition targets are literally high priority targets you need to kill or fail the mission...also something ash excels at.

I look over and over it and I can't find anything wrong or something I really disagree with.

The only thing which I would like to mention is that the damage Ash can inflict is so high, that it's never needed outisde form very long endurance runs (+90min, if not more.)^^

Am 14.11.2020 um 15:34 schrieb Aohira:

My playtime is 1338 hours total dude. I have 50,5% on my Ash, that's why I said that I've crossed 675 hours on this warframe alone. Also I have over 2600 hours in Steam.

English isn't my native language, but isn't that what I said? You have a playtime of 675hours with Ash and I have a playtime of 1388hours with him. With other words is my playtime with Ash double so high than yours. Btw. how you you have more hours on steam than ingame? Two accounts?

Am 14.11.2020 um 15:34 schrieb Aohira:

Why would you spend energy for Blade Storm? For what else would I spend it for? Besides, with my damage (up to 3619089 with a single mark) I can oneshot most of my enemies, while arcane trickery can lower my cost by half, so it's basically 3,9 energy for oneshot of lvl10000 enemy (yes he oneshots even them on steel path, I think they don't have enough hp to sustain this hit, when I get enough free time, I will check for sure). Melee has limited range, while Blade Storm has 50m (20 to benefit from Silence).

You can use the energy for Quickthinking. XD (sorry for the bad joke)

The damage I can inflict with my melee weapon should be around 48million (Simulacrum test; exodia hunt to crowd the enemies together, mutalist cernos for condition overload and a 5m wide charge attack). But until now I never had to use it, because in the first 90min (After 60min I'm starting to get tired) of survival& co mission is the stealth and crit. multiplicator more than enough.^^

Am 14.11.2020 um 15:34 schrieb Aohira:

As for Ash's reason in the game. He's a dedicated damage dealer and he used to deal with it well. Personally, I prefer to focus on one thing rather than doing multiple ones at the same time. The thing is, if you can't use a certain frame on a few missions where he's bad, it doesn't mean that he's bad. What's bad in dealing damage when the game itself is all about dealing damage?

But isn't Ash strongest combination the use of gun, melee and Bs all at once?🤔🤔🤔

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On 2020-11-14 at 2:25 PM, Aohira said:

-snip-

Well if you happen to run into him again let him know about the two posts I put up about Ash, I use to use Ash in public mission but even since the nerf I don`t use bs in public missions anymore I just use his 2 and sometimes 3 and that`s it.

imo I would rather have another warframe able to throw a smoke bomb than Ash. I have put up a concept of a Kunoichi warframe and I have use that idea of throwing a smoke bomb (elemental smoke bomb) take a look and tell me what you think.

 

Here is the link to the petition, I appreciate you signing it.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

 

Unfortunately I won`t see you in-game coz I'm on the ps4 and about the amount of hours in-game, not to show off but since you mentioned it here`s mine but I play Ash 21.7% of the time, if anything it shows how much I love this game and want it to be better.

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (1) part 3 by Aaronj-c

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Vexx757:

Well if you happen to run into him again let him know about the two posts I put up about Ash, I use to use Ash in public mission but even since the nerf I don`t use bs in public missions anymore I just use his 2 and sometimes 3 and that`s it.

imo I would rather have another warframe able to throw a smoke bomb than Ash. I have put up a concept of a Kunoichi warframe and I have use that idea of throwing a smoke bomb (elemental smoke bomb) take a look and tell me what you think.

 

Here is the link to the petition, I appreciate you signing it.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

 

Unfortunately I won`t see you in-game coz I'm on the ps4 and about the amount of hours in-game, not to show off but since you mentioned it here`s mine but I play Ash 21.7% of the time, if anything it shows how much I love this game and want it to be better.

Proof of ppl like my Ash idea (1) part 3 by Aaronj-c

Me being proud with around 1350hours.

Vexx entered the chat. Vexx uses "playtime-9100h-2000h_with_Ash" Card.

My proud:

car accident GIF

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On 2020-11-14 at 9:25 AM, Aohira said:

No, I didn't know it exists lol.

I only know Ashley_Riot's profile, but I don't have him in friend list in the game sadly. It's also impressive for me that you have more hours on Ash than I do, although I have always been alone with being Ash main, so for me being outplayed by someone else is a strange feeling, but anyway:) I know that the changes we're about to get are just miserable and don't fix even 10% of all the problems that Blade Storm has. Marking mechanic must die.

Yes I remember your augment idea. But I still think that this ability should be a little bit changed. It's technically a smoke bomb, so I want it to act differently. The way I described it will fix the problem with short duration and make stun effect actually useful. Like, I actually do survivals with only 67,5% duration, so I truly have 5,4 seconds of invisibility, because when you build for BS you want as much strength as you can, so duration dies first. As for the augment, that was just an idea and I don't care all that much since I already have a final build.

 

I also don't want to use melee when we basically have a better melee with 50m range, so I use Venka Prime for the maximum damage boost. I don't find Shuriken useful until it comes to disruption lvl10000, but that's it. Same goes for teleport. I can easily survive without using these, so I have Silence instead of Shuriken. They really need to change it and teleport.

 

Btw I always play in public matches. I have max attack speed in my Venka, so my animation is sufficiently fast, so sometimes I can make like two kills with Khora in my team who takes the rest 998 ones:) Yea, that needs to be changed. I'll try searching your petition and sign it, but just in case, send me the link if you can. Thanks for replying btw, it was nice to talk to you. I'm a PC player, so if you can and want, you can message me in game. My nickname is Aohira, as it is everywhere lol.

 

Glory to the Ash!

  "like two kills with Khora in my team who takes the rest 998 ones:) Yea, that needs to be changed."

If you're only trying to balance frames on who can kill stuff the fastest in a public match you're never gonna get anywhere. If you hypothetically somehow succeed, guess what? Ash will be in the spotlight and be nerfed again. 

it's almost like fighting over kills in public matches is pointless and ego-driven.

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22 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

it's almost like fighting over kills in public matches is pointless and ego-driven.

I can`t speak for anyone but for me idk who get the most kills in missions I care about Ash not being able to get kills coz of the horrible marking mechanic. He`s just not that good when it comes to reaching to the enemy first, Ash has the slowest activation speed in the game when it comes to his bs.

On 2020-11-14 at 10:37 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Ash is fine now.

No his not, if you want to believe that that`s fine but the two of my Ash posts, stats and ppl`s actions shows otherwise.

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Quote from Sol-Risen

Spoiler

You definitely did your due diligence on Ash. I agree with you on a lot of the issues you`ve pointed out. His shuriken ability definitely needs a revisit. I`ve encountered the problem of targeting whoever it wants. Increased time on smoke screed stuns wouldn`t hurt. Teleport and bladestorm I haven`t really had too many issues with. You make a sound argument.

Unfortunately, these are issues that are so obvious but coz of the way ppl play him they don`t see it. That`s why I made this post in the first. The only reason I think Ash needs a look over asap is coz warframes like Hydroid, Frost an Nyx have issues that are obvious but Ash`s issues is not and most ppl don`t know coz they either, use his 1 and 3 augments as bandades or they just use him in high-level missions and open areas plus meta plays a role in this also.

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On 2020-11-13 at 9:07 PM, (PSN)lydon123 said:

-snip-

Now you are arguing semantics, you get what I'm saying. Ash`s ability concepts are solid but the performance could be better. 

I get why ppl like the augment but it`s only useful in high level grinner missions, anything else make the augment useless, that`s why the stats show the shuriken was the most replaced ability out of four of Ash`s abilities. If I were to improve the augment I would make it strip armour and shields and slow down infested movement speed at least it would make it useful to more than one fraction and be useful in low and high level missions

Think about it, just increasing the stun from 1 sec to 4 seconds make a big difference and creates a new way of using the ability.

Teleport would be better if you had the option to either press to teleport to enemies or hold to teleport anywhere.

Ok you do have a point here however compared to the old bs, it could be used anywhere at any level while the current bs can only be effective in high-level, open areas (first part of mood defence).

I never said you did.

But you are proving my point, ppl think that I'm lying about Ash or am talking out of my backside so if I see someone prove my point I will use it, nothing against you but I just want to prove that ppl`s actions speak for its self. :)

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As we know Ash has had a QOL change but these changes does nothing, you would think at least it would show the enemies affected by bs instead of the amount of marks but DE didn`t think of that which proves they don`t play their own game otherwise they would have know this, I said it before and I'll say it again, as long as the marking mechanic is still their, bs will be garbage to use based on the over 10 issues it has.

On 2020-11-02 at 1:40 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

·       If you want the full damage of bs, you have to mark the enemies three times which will slow you down or  makes you stationary (if you want to do it quickly) to mark enemies with three marks. In low-level missions, your energy will be refunded back to you if you over mark and in high levels you obviously going to want the full damage of it so there is absolutely no point in having to choose the amount of damage you want to dish out. With the old bs, you had the full damage regardless.

·       Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.

·       The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.

·       Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.

·       Because of the synergy between his 2nd & 4th ability, you are forced to mod for duration to benefit from using less energy for bs since most people are not going to use bs while it`s taking more energy.

·       Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)

·       Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.

·       When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.

·       Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.

·       Because of the way it works, it makes shuriken not favoured in use due to the amount of energy bs costs when modding and how much damage it does and how quick enemies will be killed when activated. This make some people use bs over shuriken.

·       The marking mechanic makes the ability ineffective in close-quarter, tight spaces which is what  the majority of the tilesets are, this makes the ability less effective and mostly useless even more so it a team.

·       You can`t pick and choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

Reasons;

· Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.

· You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.

· You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.

· If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.

· Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

 

Just a question for the PC players, since DE looked at Ash I assume that they fixed the teleport bug so I ask; can teleport consistently open humanoid enemies up for finishers?

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En 2/11/2020 a las 2:40, (PSN)Vexx757 dijo:

Make Ash great again.

Warframe 20200714100628 by Aaronj-c

I honestly belive he needs another 4 or his old one(that had the same problems as the current one but at least dealt some damage).

Aim at enemy and the clones go at them... if somthing crosses my crosshair i'll stabby stab or introduce them to the tenno space exploration program.  <---- too slow to actualy take effect.

Previous one wasn't anny better... pres 4 get kils... "wow so mechanically chalenging" was the argumen basically to change it to the current one... then you went and did octavia,hildryn,limbo, saryn rework , mesa(that to be honest i don't remember if her 4 got reworked before or after ash... but i'm putting  my bae here just in case)...

Either you make a nerf hammer to rule them all or you let players have fun...

Edited by kaotis
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