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Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them


(PSN)Vexx757
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On 2020-01-09 at 10:06 AM, peterc3 said:

A ranged AoE with no LoS requirements, beyond the first enemy, that locked enemies and the user into a rather long animation with a relatively low cost and that essentially excluded other players from playing the game.

Everything was wrong with it.

I disagree just a bit. It could have been fixed by having a reasonable or non-scalable range. The only thing really wrong with it was that you were stuck in an animation/invincible for as long as it took to kill the enemies. That made the power 4 OP and boring. LOS from the main target should be a thing...

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I just obtained Ash Prime.  Well.  I had him for a bit.  But never touched him.  I feel like his 4 is clunky.  And the thing about it is that there is 0 reason to use it other than it looks cool.  

By the time I have marked enemies I could have already have killed them with other means.  And I cant see it being effective in group play because as mentioned.  I could have already killed the enemies using weapons...and my team usually kills them before the marking process is complete.  

Definitely a solo frame. 

I like the ideas here.  Especially for his 4.  Because if I can get done the work quicker with another weapon there isnt really a reason to over press his 4.  

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20 hours ago, Hexsing said:

I just obtained Ash Prime.  Well.  I had him for a bit.  But never touched him.  I feel like his 4 is clunky.  And the thing about it is that there is 0 reason to use it other than it looks cool.  

By the time I have marked enemies I could have already have killed them with other means.  And I cant see it being effective in group play because as mentioned.  I could have already killed the enemies using weapons...and my team usually kills them before the marking process is complete.  

Definitely a solo frame. 

I like the ideas here.  Especially for his 4.  Because if I can get done the work quicker with another weapon there isnt really a reason to over press his 4.  

See you just got him and you've realised that his 4 is problematic, can`t be used in a team and is more of a solo frame. (which goes against what DE wants ppl to do) I`m glad you have notice this despite you have less experience with him. So I ask; would my ideas make you want to use Ash again?

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47 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

See you just got him and you've realised that his 4 is problematic, can`t be used in a team and is more of a solo frame. (which goes against what DE wants ppl to do) I`m glad you have notice this despite you have less experience with him. So I ask; would my ideas make you want to use Ash again?

Yes.  With this it would offer much more utility and support group play.  

Other than the fact that Ash is one of my best fashion frame designs.  He Will be sitting on the shelf.  

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I guess my point is this about Ash.

Power 1 - Why use then when I can use Garudas 4 and slash everyone and give my team slash procs.  Or use Nyx even and hit 6 enemies reliably stripping ALL armor and with Pacifying bolts stun. 

Power 2 - 8 seconds of invis is nice but I have Ivara and Wisp making this highly irrelevant.  

Power 3 - Garuda is more reliable. On 2 of her moves.  One is a lockdown heal and the other gives me a shield and a stagger opening up to finishers.  Or Wisp and her teleport offers invis, invulnerable and can get me to motes a million miles away.   

Power 4: why use this at all.  I cant even see ot being super viable solo.  If I want Chaos I'll use zephyrs tornados or pretty much anything.  Anything but this.  This is cool looking.  But then again I have only effectively used it once because its easier to just plain up grab my Duel Keres and critical hit status effect and clear the room with crossing snakes.  

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On 2020-01-09 at 7:02 PM, keikogi said:

Most of the sugestion are reasonable but there are to points that just make me go. WHY?

Does not really help and is likely to spawn a new focus farming strategy.

Just why? This does not really bring anything to the table. It does not bring any meaninfull gameplay and will get annoying really quickly.

 

It does help, it helps you to get more affinity and there is nothing wrong with another option to gain focus, their should be multiple way to gain focus not just one.

No it actually does. If you send clones, they can kill quicker if you are in the animation it will finish quicker, you don`t have to rely on attack speed mods to increase the speed of it, it increases its dps by it being faster and you able to cast bs again and the most important thing, it`s a choice you are not forced to do this, if you don`t want the increase speed don`t slide and activate bs simple.

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38 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

It does help, it helps you to get more affinity and there is nothing wrong with another option to gain focus, their should be multiple way to gain focus not just one

Exatly why it is unlikely to be implemented. Stealth farming affinity during a guns blazing play style. It can be abused using the high spam rate of survival and defense missions while using the stealth mutiplier for ridiculous amount of affinity.

42 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

No it actually does. If you send clones, they can kill quicker if you are in the animation it will finish quicker, you don`t have to rely on attack speed mods to increase the speed of it, it increases its dps by it being faster and you able to cast bs again and the most important thing, it`s a choice you are not forced to do this, if you don`t want the increase speed don`t slide and activate bs simple.

Just buff the base speed if you want , don't create unnecessary hoops to jump through. Also it is a meaningless choice because you are always better of with faster animations so why it is even there.

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4 hours ago, keikogi said:

It can be abused using the high spam rate of survival and defense missions while using the stealth mutiplier for ridiculous amount of affinity.

Sorry, but this never was possible because those mission types have enemies that are always in alerted state.  Stealth multipliers require that the enemies not be alerted in order to get them.  This is why previous Stealth Affinity farming always took place on mission types where the enemies aren't auto-alerted like Exterminates, Spies, Sabotages, etc.  

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47 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sorry, but this never was possible because those mission types have enemies that are always in alerted state.  Stealth multipliers require that the enemies not be alerted in order to get them.  This is why previous Stealth Affinity farming always took place on mission types where the enemies aren't auto-alerted like Exterminates, Spies, Sabotages, etc.  

Did you read op post , he wants if you kill a target with a shuriken it is a stealth kill, regardeless of enemy state. Therefore you could abuse it on survival.

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3 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Did you read op post , he wants if you kill a target with a shuriken it is a stealth kill, regardeless of enemy state. Therefore you could abuse it on survival.

If that's what he wants, then I can with all certainty say that it will NOT happen.  

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23 hours ago, keikogi said:

Exatly why it is unlikely to be implemented. Stealth farming affinity during a guns blazing play style. It can be abused using the high spam rate of survival and defense missions while using the stealth mutiplier for ridiculous amount of affinity.

Just buff the base speed if you want , don't create unnecessary hoops to jump through. Also it is a meaningless choice because you are always better of with faster animations so why it is even there.

Ok it looks like I need to elaborate since it`s not obvious. Getting a 1 shot kill with a sniper while undetected will give you affinity, if alerted you don`t get it, that's how shuriken works. Btw this comment  "he wants if you kill a target with a shuriken it is a stealth kill, regardeless of enemy stateworks." I never said this nor did I say I wanted this the best thing to do is just to ask what I meant instead of assuming. I even said stealth kill it can`t get a stealth kill if enemies are alerted even @DatDarkOne knew what you thought is not possible and that's why he said after "If that's what he wants" instead of what you did.

Why is it there you ask? for funs sake, ppl keep forgetting that this is a game. Me personally, I don`t want the animation to be quick but there is someone that wants it. To me unnecessary hoops is spamming gara`s 4 to increase damage and duration on 2nd ability while loosing lots energy with all the button presses vs Ash just sliding just to get either clones killing quicker or increased animations speed which costs no energy with one press, which is a choice, doesn't require a certain build to use and most importantly... doesn`t ruin your gameplay experience.

Not being funny but Ash is my main frame, I through long and hard to improve his abilities coz DE did a bad job, every one of my ideas has a reason and they in some way improve his abilities wither ppl like it or not is a different story. I hope I have answer you first comment on why, now you know.

 

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On 2020-01-02 at 11:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Ash:

·       All abilities can be cast while on ziplines.

 

1st Ability: Shuriken

  Hide contents

·       If an enemy is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.

·       Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what crit damage mods you have equipped on your melee weapon, also headshots will do more damage.

First of as it is written I did not misinterpreted you nor did I put words in your mounth. If you kill an enemy in one hit with shuriken , it will be considered a stealth kill. This is what you wrote.

If You wanted to mean what you have in your head it should be written as " If You kill an unalarmed enemy in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill."

Second of , this a written conversation not a face to face conversation , so whatever you wrote is what you mean until you type something else. This means there is no expectation that someones asks if if this is what you have in mind before commenting.

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Why is it there you ask? for funs sake, ppl keep forgetting that this is a game. Me personally, I don`t want the animation to be quick but there is someone that wants it. To me unnecessary hoops is spamming gara`s 4 to increase damage and duration on 2nd ability while loosing lots energy with all the button presses vs Ash just sliding just to get either clones killing quicker or increased animations speed which costs no energy with one press, which is a choice, doesn't require a certain build to use and most importantly... doesn`t ruin your gameplay experience

Than just ask for a toggle on the skill menu , no need for a unnecessary hoop to jump trough for maximum effective DPS.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Not being funny but Ash is my main frame, I through long and hard to improve his abilities coz DE did a bad job, every one of my ideas has a reason and they in some way improve his abilities wither ppl like it or not is a different story. I hope I have answer you first comment on why, now you know.

Read my first comment most of what I saw here is resonable. That's why I did not bother to quote each change and say that's good. Or this is OK , I just singled out what I disagree with.

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On 2020-01-02 at 3:38 PM, LoneWolveYoutube said:

1. I appreciate you sorting things by using the hidden contents feature.

2. I love a lot of your changes and hope that DE sees this.  Making him better at killing groups of enemies by flying around and covering the field in smoke would be AWESOME.  I'm sure it would be enough to revive the character and move him away from the Rolling Guard + Invisibility only playstyle that I see people doing.

Thanks. If you can spread this for ppl to see that would be great.

On 2020-01-13 at 7:50 PM, Wolfdoggie said:

-snip-

Yes I don`t like that dumb synergy (which it`s not) where you teleport to be in the animation and I agree that because of the marking, using the ability is not fun, go and bring ash in a level 0 - 10 mission and see if he will get a lot of kills seriously go try it.

I have also seen ash in missions only using his 2 and nothing else and when I see Ash in a mission I get upset because he offers no use in the team.

So I ask... what do you think to my ideas to Ash? also his 2 since you don`t use the invis part of the ability and will it make you play him again?

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Ok from what I have written, would it make you wont to try him out?

I play him.  Just no where enough to fairly judge your suggestions.  it's nothing to do with Ash himself other than just he's not IVARA.  😄  

It's Dat Azz that got me.  

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At the time ash was ranked the number 1 favourited warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Now he is one of the least used warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

 

Proof:

Mogamu`s vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLohAFoWQc

Life of rio`s vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJRx6oTxF1Y

Whether ppl think Ash is in a good place or they think he doesn`t need a revisit, players actions says otherwise.
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On 2020-01-10 at 9:33 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

If you actually think about it, it work like the old bs except you are targeting an area instead of aiming at an enemy. I don`t like using the 3rd ability to join them which I explained in my post that why I suggested a press to join the animation while hold will send clones out which is better.

Just to be fair it did have some problems;

Old bs problems

  Reveal hidden contents

· In high-level missions, If Ash used bs, he would be stuck in the animation for a long time if there was an ancient healer around.

· Enemies that are red could not be killed by allies unless they had exalted weapons e.g. Excalibur and Valkyr.

· You could not skip the animation making it to where he couldn`t revive allies and protect pods/npcs in missions.

 

All of these combined made him a problem in missions where you have to kill the enemies to progress and to the team.

1

 As you can see with my ideas, it has no downsides.

Yes your right that is all DE had to do. If you look at my ideas that's what it does and more.

Agreed the marking mechanic should be for cc abilities not damage abilities (inaros` 4th, nyx`s 3rd) this plus it`s hard to use with a controller which proves DE don`t care about console players and that's what ppl don`t understand, they are so blinded by "it does more damage" and "I don't have to join the animation" and such fanboys/girls that they cut ppl down ppl that could see the probs with the ability. The next time you see ppl say the marking mechanic is not a prob ask them if saryn, equinox, banshee and mag got it would they be happy?

Also ppl were complaining about they cant take his kills, he was a prob in defence mission with eximuses and having to always join the animation if ppl could take his kills, bs didn't affect eximuses and you don`t have to join the animation i`m telling you now no one would complain.

 

 


 

Yes that it what I meant.  That was the only problem with bs was getting stuck on the animation. Right now ressing 3 to join is not viable.... Either everything is dead cuz of other players or targets move or get rag dolled and it's impossible to aim. 

 

Option should be to hold 4 to join. 

 

And revert nerfs to ash! He was no more pwerful than any other frame today.

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On 2020-01-22 at 2:53 PM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

At the time ash was ranked the number 1 favourited warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Now he is one of the least used warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

 

Proof:

Mogamu`s vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLohAFoWQc

 

Life of rio`s vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJRx6oTxF1Y

 

 

Whether ppl think Ash is in a good place or they think he doesn`t need a revisit, players actions says otherwise.

Favorite doesn't mean most played.

My favorite frame has always been Volt, but my most played (or only played) frame is Vauban since his rework a few months ago.

If I had to make a top 5, Ash would probably be in it even though I barely use him out of Sortie Spy missions, he's even displayed in my "lounge".

People love him cause he's THE space ninja, but people (me included) like to have DR/Iron Skin, buffs, and a nuke ability for when we're too lazy to aim. 

Ash has decent survivability for a "stealth" frame (invisibility + high health/shield), debuff through augment, great passive, so the only missing thing is the nuke ability (and he's used to have the most powerful one via old BS).

I think he's still in a good place in terms of stats / passive / first 3 abilities, he just need something to deal with groups of enemies without rolling back to the old OP Bladestorm.

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