Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them

[Awazx]

hace 31 minutos, Ikyr0 dijo:

He's got a cohesive kit with 4 functional abilities.

"...a cohesive kit" 

Its 1 is only useful with its increase.
Its 2 is meh and it is outdated.
Your 3 is only useful with your magnification.
His 4 is slow and inefficient.

But hey! who am I to tell you how you should have fun. And now, let me go back to my Revenant, I love to annihilate everything in 2 seconds by pressing 4.

[Ikyr0]

18 minutes ago, Awazx said:

"...a cohesive kit" 

Its 1 is only useful with its increase.
Its 2 is meh and it is outdated.
Your 3 is only useful with your magnification.
His 4 is slow and inefficient.

But hey! who am I to tell you how you should have fun. And now, let me go back to my Revenant, I love to annihilate everything in 2 seconds by pressing 4.

1. Yeah, and it's one of the only 100% armor strip abilities in the game. 

2. It's a good ability because it's not channeled. Unlike Ivara's Prowl, you can Regen energy and fire any weapons while invis. At the very least, it's better than Prowl, and I haven't seen anyone crying about Prowl.

3. This is just an easy way to move around the tileset, and build the combo multiplier extremely fast. I do agree it needs a buff, as I said above.

4. Blade Storm scales with combo multiplier and kills a lvl 150 with only one mark. The animation is faster with attack speed, and if cast while sliding. It's a set-it-and-forget-it ability. I can quickly glance to one side of the room, send my clones, and run to the opposite side to kill a group myself. In 3 seconds, the entire tileset is wiped. Ash (along with Wukong) is th only frame who can be killing in two places at once. Before you needed a Zenistar for this, but it is now nerfed.

Nothing against the Revenant, he's a great frame. But because of how well Ash scales, and because he can be killing in multiple places while you're twirling in one area, I will always have more kills than you. A melee frame like Inaros can out kill a Revenant who is channeling his 4. Ash can easily keep up with Saryns in terms of efficiency 🤭 You obviously know very little.

 

Literally nobody:

People who don't know how Ash works: let's rework Ash!

 

Yeah, this thread is a joke.

[ES-Flinter]

@Ikyr0 I agree with you to 90%. But the 10% make the big difference, why I think that Ash needs a complete rework (not only a revisit).

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ikyr0:

1. Yeah, and it's one of the only 100% armor strip abilities in the game. 

The Other abilities are Banshees Sonicfracture augment, Oberons holy floor and Reckoning combination, Embers Fire blast, Frosts Avalanche, Gauss Thermal Sunder, Hildryns Pillage (only in Abritation!), Nekros Creeping Terrify augment and Vaubans Bastille. Can the Aura corrosive Projections also be counted?

Sure Shuriken cost less. But you probably know how accurate the shurikens are. Or their ability to punchtrough enemies.

And last but not least there is also the problem, that only one ability benefits of this augment. And that's teleportation. Shuriken and Bladestorm both ignore armor. And his passive increase the damage of blood procs. So shredding the enemies armor is also not a useful.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ikyr0:

2. It's a good ability because it's not channeled. Unlike Ivara's Prowl, you can Regen energy and fire any weapons while invis. At the very least, it's better than Prowl, and I haven't seen anyone crying about Prowl.

What is with Loki? Or octavia? Ash Smoke bomb has the shortest ability duration of them. So there should be atleast some benefits over the other abilities. But smoke bomb has only a shorter animations speed and it gives higher sprint speed. 

Imo DE could at least give the ability the option to open enemies for finisher on activation. And small stun isn't helpful.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ikyr0:

3. This is just an easy way to move around the tileset, and build the combo multiplier extremely fast. I do agree it needs a buff, as I said above.

A free teleportation which doesn't need a target would be the perfect solution. And a 100% chance to open an enemy for a finisher. (Until now it's more like a slot machine.)

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ikyr0:

4. Blade Storm scales with combo multiplier and kills a lvl 150 with only one mark. The animation is faster with attack speed, and if cast while sliding. It's a set-it-and-forget-it ability. I can quickly glance to one side of the room, send my clones, and run to the opposite side to kill a group myself. In 3 seconds, the entire tileset is wiped. Ash (along with Wukong) is th only frame who can be killing in two places at once. Before you needed a Zenistar for this, but it is now nerfed.

I agree with you on this. Btw you did forget Atlas and equinox.

But because Teleportation and Bladestorm are both very similar I would it more like, if Ash gets a complete new fourth ability and Bladestorm can be used by holding the third ability button.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ikyr0:

Ash can easily keep up with Saryns in terms of efficiency 

Damage yes. But not with the amount of kills. Except you play with an inexperienced Saryn.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Ikyr0:

Literally nobody:

People who don't know how Ash works: let's rework Ash!

 

Yeah, this thread is a joke.

Is this thread a joke? Or did you just have a different opinion. Don't judge someone because he is in your eyes wrong. (Especially if you don't know what the other is capable of) XD

[Ikyr0]

34 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

@Ikyr0

Is this thread a joke? Or did you just have a different opinion. Don't judge someone because he is in your eyes wrong. (Especially if you don't know what the other is capable of) XD

No it really is man. Opinions can be jokes, and that's my opinion. 

Like when I look at my roster, Ash is probably in my top 3. I play meta and off-meta stuff, and I tend to enjoy efficiency. Ash meets my criteria. For example, I like Oberon a lot, but Ash is simply better objectively. He scales better, does more damage, and has better survivability. And Oberon is a GOOD frame. Ash just happens to be excellent.

I'd really like DE to focus on buffing Nyx and a few other frames, but obviously I won't complain about buffs to one of my favorites.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-03-20 at 7:39 PM, Ikyr0 said:

1. Yeah, and it's one of the only 100% armor strip abilities in the game. 

4. Blade Storm scales with combo multiplier and kills a lvl 150 with only one mark. 

Literally nobody:

People who don't know how Ash works: let's rework Ash!

 

Yeah, this thread is a joke.

Ladies and gents my point has been proven again. The some of the talking points that ppl always say to defend Ash:

"Ash 1st can strip armour" ignoring the fact that without it, its bad at high levels.

"Bladestorm can deal high damage" yh because that`s what ppl have an issue with smh.

"You just don`t know have to play Ash/know how he works" even if ppl know how he works or play him you still can`t bypass the problems that I listed e.g. allies will take you kills while bs is active. (which is a dumb thing to say)

And if you think this post is a joke then you don`t need to be here. Someone with any sense wouldn't even write anything in a post they don`t like they would just leave. Even now lets see if you can resist and not rely to this so called "joke" of a post.

On 2020-03-20 at 10:16 PM, ES-Flinter said:

Damage yes. But not with the amount of kills.

Thank you for telling it this. This is one of Ash`s issues which he is ignoring.

On 2020-03-20 at 7:27 PM, Awazx said:

Its 1 is only useful with its increase.
Its 2 is meh and it is outdated.
Your 3 is only useful with your magnification.
His 4 is slow and inefficient.

I ask again what do you think of my revisit to Ash? does my improvements to Ash address the issues you have with him?

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-03-19 at 4:48 PM, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

It made Ash a one trick pony.

My improvements to bs has made it efficient for the ppl with Ash and the person using him plus his 1 does more damage, his 2 can be used for survivability or cc, his 3 is more versatile and he his better synergy which give more ways than on to kill effectively so no this does not make him a one trick pony.

On 2020-03-20 at 5:10 PM, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

Just my opinion.

Your right and I think he needs a revisit which I will continue to push, but that`s just my opinion.

[Ikyr0]

I'm honestly happy to keep bumping this just so more people can see how silly you are. 

Ash is the best stealth frame in the game. I can kill faster than Octavia while doing more damage. Loki is a joke (maybe make a thread about him), and Ivara is a B-tier frame who is the slowest of them all with the worst stealth ability in the game and a useless exalted. I will take Blade Storm over Artemis any day. It's not even close. Loki has THREE entirely useless abilities. 

So as you can see, even just considering stealth frames, there are two others (3 if you include Banshee) that desperately need more attention from DE than Ash.

[(PSN)Soul_o-O_Eater]

I really like your ideas for ability 1-2, but as a console player with controller, your abilities 3-4 would be too difficult to use and would kill him for me.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Soul_o-O_Eater said:

I really like your ideas for ability 1-2, but as a console player with controller, your abilities 3-4 would be too difficult to use and would kill him for me.

Ok so what would you do to make it easier to use them? and besides the 3rd and 4th ability controls, what do you think of my ideas for the 3rd and 4th ability?

[(PSN)Soul_o-O_Eater]

20 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Ok so what would you do to make it easier to use them? and besides the 3rd and 4th ability controls, what do you think of my ideas for the 3rd and 4th ability?

I think introducing too many things to teleport to will get annoying when you miss. For example, you miss an enemy and teleport to a wall. Teleport has such a huge range that the room for error is equally big. For teleport I would buff the finisher damage of the augment and keep the energy refund. For the ability itself, it needs to do auto finishers without the augment because the enemies bug out and don't stagger half the time. It's wasting energy

For bladestorm, they could use their cone mechanism to highlight enemies or expand the reticle that senses them. That way it doesn't require pinpoint accuracy and lots of janky screen movements. As for speed of attacks, they can speed it up. Make the augment not just combo efficiency but have it execute all bladestorm attacks at the same time. 

Just some ideas off the top of my head at 2:30am.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-03-25 at 9:26 AM, (PS4)Soul_o-O_Eater said:

-snip-

There won`t be an issue with targeting for the fact that one is a press and one is a hold, the press is for enemies, npc allies, health bar/scannable objects and the hold is for free movement. The hold is meant to be used for stealth gameplay not for fast past movement however if you want to use it that way you can. Instead of an auto finisher I`d rather have the choice to have the enemies always open them up to finishers consistently so at least I get the choice to either prompted it or not.

For bs it better to have it affected by radius than a cone (the only way I would accept it being a cone is if enemies could not be killed by allies and we know ppl won`t like that) maybe instead of targeting an enemy, it can target an area on the ground. If bs attacks are at the same time (adding that to my idea) will make it too op it will end up being like Saryn which some ppl don`t want. My ideas has balance, it has quick activation, has no limit on how many it can kill, and allies can still kill ash`s targets but it will still kill three enemies at a time like now the only thing you can do is to speed up the attacks of the clone is by either adding attack speed mods or sliding but it will still attack three enemies at a time.

[Rellikan]

I like this a lot. But there's simpler QoL changes they can do to make playing him less frustrating right now.

1. Shuriken's range needs a big range increase (it always did), especially since we have Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis maps now.

2. No. of shurikens thrown scaling with Ability Strength. It's sad enough how often this ability misses, and yet you can only use 2 at a time. In addition it would be neat if the shurikens ricocheted off enemies instead of bending trajectory.

3. Deathmark mode being available to activate at any time. Locking Deathmark while Bladestorm is in process severely hinders Ash's DPS, particularly in situations where there are waves of oncoming enemies that he cannot mark and could not mark beforehand (line of sight blocked). It's frustrating for the player and does not suit the overall unleashed and unbridled gameplay that Warframe typically offers with other DPS frames.

4. Smoke Screen duration is either paused, increased or reset when Ash joins Bladestorm. This effect may be better suited than the current Augment Mod for Smoke Screen, which Octavia freely has on default."

The worst parts about Ash right now is Fatal Teleport not working properly.

 

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

7 hours ago, Rellikan said:

I like this a lot. But there's simpler QoL changes they can do to make playing him less frustrating right now.

1. Shuriken's range needs a big range increase (it always did), especially since we have Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis maps now.

2. No. of shurikens thrown scaling with Ability Strength. It's sad enough how often this ability misses, and yet you can only use 2 at a time. In addition it would be neat if the shurikens ricocheted off enemies instead of bending trajectory.

3. Deathmark mode being available to activate at any time. Locking Deathmark while Bladestorm is in process severely hinders Ash's DPS, particularly in situations where there are waves of oncoming enemies that he cannot mark and could not mark beforehand (line of sight blocked). It's frustrating for the player and does not suit the overall unleashed and unbridled gameplay that Warframe typically offers with other DPS frames.

4. Smoke Screen duration is either paused, increased or reset when Ash joins Bladestorm. This effect may be better suited than the current Augment Mod for Smoke Screen, which Octavia freely has on default."

The worst parts about Ash right now is Fatal Teleport not working properly.

My ideas to Ash is a mix of QoL`s and a revisit.

1. To be specific, the target range needs an increase however this doesn`t bother me and poe and ov are onlt two out of the 5+ tilesets.

2. Idm if this happened but I just focused on the damage of them than how many he can throw.

3. And this problem is what ppl are ignoring with bs, with my ideas it makes if fun and useful. (as you have read)

4. I also don`t mind if it got a duration increase, as you can see I just focused on the 2nd part of the ability (the smoke) than the invis part since its a plus anyway.

Bit by bit Ash is slowly getting nerfed which if you go back an look in the comment section I mention some of them, that's why he needs a revisit. 

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

@NovusKnight Ash doesn`t need a rework just a revisit. the ability ideas are great but they just need some small change. If you read my post, some of the things you have an issue with have been addressed. Please take a look and tell me what you think also, if you look in the comment section I also talk about other thing about Ash like my version of new augments based on my revisit and how theses changes to his abilities open for new ways to play him.

[DreadWarlock]

On 2020-03-16 at 11:03 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

That won`t be good for the fact that trap based abilities don`t work in warframe that's one of the reasons why Vauban was bad besides I`d rather have a new frame have the ability to do that.

Yes and no. It`s similar to the old bs but the difference is that it does not have any of the downsides. My idea does not hinder the players around him coz ppl can still take Ash`s kills for the fact that bs still kills three enemies at a time plus if you don`t want to be in the animation you don`t have to so it`s not as OP as the old bs.(if you look at my post I explain why my idea of bs is better) As for your shuriken idea in solo play it won`t be a prob but in public play it will be coz other ppl can take your kills and its still a two step process, my idea for shuriken is a synergy option.

No that was not the problem with Vauban, the problem with Vauban was the nature of the traps you could use and not that traps doesn't work in Warframe. Traps work perfectly in warframe, Mag and New Vauban are there to prove this. Old Vauban's traps had extremely limited range, too short of a cc, limited number of uses, with a cooldown between each use and high cost. Even if you modded for range it was still not enough. The only decent trap was shred which could remove 100% armor and worked more like a grenade instead of a trap.

Reworked Vauban's traps now work and can be used on any situation because they work on duration instead of uses and cooldown. Also his Bastille and Vortex were also traps and were 100% functional even at their oldest form. All you need for my suggestion to work is for his Blade Storm to work like an MMORPG AOE spell. Where you aim a circle or square at a huge area. and anyone who steps there get hit. It would affect enemies in the exact same way as Mag's bubble but it would cause damage instead of control. More importantly you could simply cast it as the enemies enter the map this would ensure you hit the spot where anyone who spawns there will go through and maximize it's efficiency. More importantly it would allow them to make this change to mag, and make it better to aim her bubbles.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

23 hours ago, Bakahung said:

That's a long list , shown that you really love ash and want to make him better .

I think all your ideas are viable besides changing blade storm to a fast cast . That will make him kill as fast as Saryn , and people definitely don;t like that . I think a little set up time is still needed .

IF I have to pick other problems from your post , I think is there are too many mechanics . 

In my observation , any character ( not just WF ) with more than 2 mechanics will start to confused people . Look at Gauss , so many people can't understand him without someone explain to them . Even Saryn have these problem in her release date .

I'm not saying people are dumb , but when there is a lot going on in a game  , most people just don't have the brain space to understand things . And that why in my personal reworks ( yes I write some reworks because I have nothing better to do ) , there are not many crazy mechanics flying around . Being simple and straight to the point is the best .

So TL;DR , maybe just simplify some of your ideas and everything will be perfect .

Or it can just be me . Your rework is probably just fine , and it's just me .

He won`t befast as Saryn, Saryn kills every enemy affected all at the same time while Ash kills three enemies at a time, as for the mechanics they are all in synergy in which is a choice you don't have to use the synergies if you don`t want to. I understand what you`re saying but how I see it is if you like the frame, you will want to learn how to use it no matter how complicated it is to get the best experience out of it.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

@(PS4)Vexx757

I see you have "All abilities can be cast while on zip lines" is that your new passive for Ash? Would that replace his current passive or add to it? 

1- I think for the bleeding from this skill, it should cause more bleeding damage and and keep the duration of the bleed/slash status up as long as the enemy is moving (at a reduced pace due to the bleed damage) after they are hit with the shuriken, and if the enemy stops moving, the bleeding damage would be less and the duration would fade away from a base. I like holding the ability to target one enemy for double damage. So in theory the enemy could die completely if they don't stop moving after the initial hit. 

2- I agree with everything you have for suggestions with this ability, would definitely help out with the synergy of his abilities

3- Ash's 3rd and 4th ability I am still undecided on what I would do with these.

4- 

 

 

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

19 hours ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

@(PS4)Vexx757

I see you have "All abilities can be cast while on zip lines" is that your new passive for Ash? Would that replace his current passive or add to it? 

1- I think for the bleeding from this skill, it should cause more bleeding damage and and keep the duration of the bleed/slash status up as long as the enemy is moving (at a reduced pace due to the bleed damage) after they are hit with the shuriken, and if the enemy stops moving, the bleeding damage would be less and the duration would fade away from a base. I like holding the ability to target one enemy for double damage. So in theory the enemy could die completely if they don't stop moving after the initial hit. 

2- I agree with everything you have for suggestions with this ability, would definitely help out with the synergy of his abilities

3- Ash's 3rd and 4th ability I am still undecided on what I would do with these.

vex-info:

It`s not a passive, it`s something I think she should be able to do. This makes him more versatile.

1. I like this and it make sense. In real like if someone was running while bleeding out they will lose more of it that`s why I came up with the idea of enemies affected will move slower.

2. This adds more way to use that ability, adds better cc to help the team and add another way to damage enemies.

3. the 3rd has no limitation, it full realises the concept of teleporting and even through his 3rd and 4th are both about teleportation they are completely different function wise. As for his 4th it`s a combination of the old and the current with no downsides of each, it`s not as op as the old but it`s easier to use than the current.

I hope this explains my goal for these two abilities. Whenever you get the time to think about it let me know what you think.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Vexx-info:

After reading over my revisit ideas, I have relised some things that are unessassary or that makes Ash a bit op.

Here are some things that I’m going to change:

 

3rd ability

·       The range when holding is at full range instead of half.

·       Ash will only hang on the wall for three seconds if you choose to hang on the wall instead of it happening automatically.

 

4th ability:

·       I`m removing the ability to increase damage by combo multi with melee weapons. Reason being is that the way the 4th works (quick activation, no limit on enemy kills) and the 1st and 4th synergy is makes it kind of op and unnecessary to have two ways to increase damage.

 

Smoke Screen + Shuriken, Teleport & Blade Storm synergy:

·       2nd ability will not reduce other abilities` energy in half, it will be the same energy cost.

 

Before I edit my post, I want you guys to give me your reasons why these changes are good or bad first, depending one what you guys say will determine whether I will add this to my post or not.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about Ash`s bs is how it consumes energy.

Me personally I would just make it consume 100 energy but I would like for you guys to tell me how will it work when consuming energy?

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Vexx-info:

Below is a list of players that support my idea of Blade Storm and wanted to see this happen. I have gathered these names by speaking to people on the mic when I’m in missions. (PS4 players) This has been an ongoing process since August 2017.(I stopped around feb 2018) I know you won`t read all of this but the point is to show how serious I am about my ideas and for Ash to get a revisit.

Spoiler

XXBigfarmerXX

Music_life_123

Braysoul

agranator

Honeybackninja

Faimpower88

Bigtonkatruck21

Faiz2000a

Kyuubi_Naruto10

Chambles

James30032303

Emos_East

Mystic form

Pho_shizzle69

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NOTlesnoto

Rorshanck

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Ice Man_FG80

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jms_interiors

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maskedviper11

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reese490

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Insomniacmob

brcl671

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ZXTER_RUDENT

zeywardDaGreat

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Zurin

nightsfallen

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kingIshyyYt

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lrunno

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Hintero

tamur26

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lil_scwub

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stunningwolf

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YJgeezus

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Red-Clone

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ajcoolman455

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XenoSamus

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Lightbeest

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[Shad0wWatcher]

Been reading this thread for a while from the shadows, gotta say, i'm really diggin the ideas being put down here. The main problem right now with Ash is that his supposed most powerful ability, works too damn slow. But his other abilities just don't really measure up, giving them this twist rather than getting whole new abilities, this works. I'm down with this.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-04-17 at 10:08 PM, Shad0wWatcher said:

Been reading this thread for a while from the shadows, gotta say, i'm really diggin the ideas being put down here. The main problem right now with Ash is that his supposed most powerful ability, works too damn slow. But his other abilities just don't really measure up, giving them this twist rather than getting whole new abilities, this works. I'm down with this.

Appreciated. As you have read this gives him more creative way to kill than just using Blade Storm and those ways cost less energy plus theses ideas includes cc, his 2nd ability assists allies and bs is more player friendly, its a mix of the old and current bs which will please everyone. If you haven`t already please leave a like so this can get some attention.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Vexx-info

If you guys are interested I have a post up talking about reworks, revisits and QOL`s of each frame, her is the link.

 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

My biggest gripe with ash, his 4th is too slow and not very active. Its powerful yes but mesas regulators are stronger, far faster, and more Energy efficient by a magnitude while having similar past issues of press 4 to win and similar reworks to directional targeting instead of 360.

My suggestion is simply to make blade storm active.. have it so clones are being deployed while marking, keeping the limit of 2 at a time. Toggle off marking to have marks permanent reguardless of distance fron ash or chew some extra energy for bonus clones, like up to 5.

This change would have little impact on bladestorm builds are ultimately used while generally improving responsiveness. Most importantly people would not need to have a macro or auto trigger controller to make active use of blade storm.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-04-24 at 3:51 PM, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

My biggest gripe with ash, his 4th is too slow and not very active. Its powerful yes but mesas regulators are stronger, far faster, and more Energy efficient by a magnitude while having similar past issues of press 4 to win and similar reworks to directional targeting instead of 360.

So that being said what do you think of my revisit to Ash in general?