Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Empyrean bringing new type of grind.. stop!


Dauggie
 Share

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

I don't think DE is forcing anyone to buy plat to get a good gear.

True they aren't forcing, but they have created a situation where it is more reasonable (and entertaining while doing) to grind items in older "content" for platinum doing things you enjoy, and spend it on Rush Drones because the grind to fix wreckage or farm yourself is so time consuming, frustrating, and buggy still. People will almost always choose the path of least resistance. 
 

5 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

At least I can stop Roaring in my ship, like a madman

Lol I hear ya, but I do have to admit its more fun. It also was nice to take out my +309% damage Shock Trooper Volt for once outside of an Eidolon hunt. Despite all the quirky things about Railjack, the best thing I think is that its causing me to rethink a lot of my builds, and trying new things again. Ever try to use a Nekros Shadows of the Dead after killing some fighters? Good times xD

Edited by Vaeldious
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Dauggie said:

that's naive thinking tbh

Let me explain more about my thought , DE is running a business. They offer services and clearly stated their terms.
We know the terms. We paid ( with our playtime / our plat or our real world money ) to buy their services.
If you are not happy with these terms you can give them feedbacks or stop paying and find a better service elsewhere.

It's pretty fair business in my point of view.

You sounds like a completionist who wants everythings your way but I'm afraid that are not their terms of service.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm extremely worried with the direction DE is heading. Randomised stats are the "nuclear energy" equivalent in online games. I have known great games that became P2W the moment they introduced randomised stats, and then utilised transactions and paid items in order to 'gamble' for better stats. 

Our beloved Warframe has already signed into the first devil contract, which is the randomised stats. At least, the randomisation is facilitated by, relatively compared to the rest of the gaming market, a somewhat feasible yet generally unfavourable amount of grind.

The moment WF begins to implement cashwalls on the aspect of stat randomisation, then get ready to herald the beginning of the end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2020-01-03 at 9:40 AM, Dauggie said:

Yes kuva weapons and rivens had it before but they were fine

I stopped right here.

If Riven Mods are fine, then Railjack stuff with one random stat is perfectly fine too.

Riven Mods are the pinnacle of the warsmith's art RNG's deviance.

Edited by Chewarette
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Mints said:

Funny, y'know I have looked at the wikipedia and you know what I saw? All the 0s next to the MK1 parts where they lack secondary traits entirely. I also noticed how the primary stats curve in a consistent manner across Houses within component categories. In fact, if you actually go down the list you will see that, in many circumstances, it is numerically impossible for an MK1 part to roll a higher stat than an MK3 part from the same House because the minimum roll for the MK3 part is the maximum roll for the MK1 part.

That was never the argument that it has to be the same house, people were sayings that a MK1 can roll higher than a MK3, no mention of houses. Stop only picking out stuff you want to hear.

as you argued at the very start: " Do you have any actual proof of this or did you just look at an MK1 part with one stat maxed out compared to an MK3 part with relatively equal stat distribution and assume that the former is objectively better than the latter?"

"objectively better" is a laugh, because who would object that the lower stat numbers are better than higher stats?

What's subjective is the secondary stats, but you can still get awful ones. It all depends on people's play styles and builds. Don't forget that.

 

Yes there is many circumstances that MK1s can't be better than MK3s, but there is proof that it CAN. That is all the proof needed.

 

So guess I'll show you a visual representation that MK1s can roll higher than MK3s through pictures from the wikipedia since clearly you didn't look, and how forgot your own started argument.

7QIBxQH.jpg

That's all I needed to post. You can reply, you can try to drag out pointless nonsense, but I just proven your original argument. You can try straying away from your original argument, as you seem to have the habit of doing, but that isn't what I came for. I went after your original post, and got my way!

My work here is done! *Mic drop*

Have a nice day!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, 844448 said:

I'm questioning if those who complain guns being too weak have Hyperstrike aka serration for railjack installed

I have a maxed out Zetki Hyperstrike installed on my railjack, and I still use Rhino to pilot.

Note that my nose gun is a Vidar Carcinnox MK3 with ~25% bonus damage.

So yeah, they don't do enough damage right now. If I don't use Roar before going into a dogfight in the Veil, it can take 4-5 seconds of sustained fire, with ~80% accuracy, to kill one Exo Elite Cutter. One of them. While their 10-15 buddies are shredding my ship, despite the fact that I also have a maxed Zetki Hull Weave and a R6 Zetki Bulkhead.

If enemies are intended to do that much damage to us, we need to kill them in 1-2 seconds. That's what Roar lets me do now. That's what DE needs to let us do after they remove the ability to use Roar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

If enemies are intended to do that much damage to us, we need to kill them in 1-2 seconds. That's what Roar lets me do now. That's what DE needs to let us do after they remove the ability to use Roar.

From yesterday:

23 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Few Warframe Abilities unintentionally work on the Railjack itself, bringing a meta Warframe to Railjack Weapons is not a design outcome we intended (i.e Chroma does not work). Our goal here is to balance so that players don’t feel they need to use Rhino’s Roar; Railjack weapons should feel powerful on their own. And right now they don’t. A main reason for this is the enemy Armor values are extremely high - on Dev we have halved all armor values for fighters to test that, and will send it out if it feels better! 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Chewarette said:

I stopped right here.

If Riven Mods are fine, then Railjack stuff with one random stat is perfectly fine too.

Riven Mods are the pinnacle of the warsmith's art RNG's deviance.

The difference between Riven mods and Railjack components is that Riven mods are one mod that you add to your weapon. They can be very powerful, but they don't determine your base power. You don't have to have a Riven for most guns to be good. You do have to have a Reactor, Shield Array, and Engines for your Railjack to be good.

Also, DE said, very specifically, that they didn't want to have rivens for warframes. However, Railjack components affect warframe-esque stats, such as sprint speed, shields, and energy capacity.

Now I personally don't have too much of a problem with the random weapon stats. It is a bonus stat on top of the base stats, and while useful, is not game breaking. Also, the rate of acquisition is much better, meaning you don't have to wait very long to get a better roll if your first one is bad (which is another part of how Rivens work).

Imagine if, instead of an Orokin Reactor, you could add a new 'riven-like' item to your warframe that increases mod and energy capacity, but the only item that lets you re-roll this stat has an exorbitant crafting cost and its blueprint can only be acquired at a 2% drop chance from rotation C of a level 150-200 survival mission. Would you still want to play the game? Now imagine that not only is all of that the case, but when you re-roll it, it has a chance to be less than what an Orokin Reactor gives now. Not only that, but you are also back to needing to equip your warframe abilities as mods, and they take up mod capacity too.

That is nothing like what Rivens are. Rivens are single mod, with three random stats, that can improve the effectiveness of a single weapon/weapon family. They can't increase your mod capacity, they can't affect your shield stats, they can't affect your movement stats, and they don't take ~1000 minutes to re-roll.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fact is that these components are not like the other things in the game with random stats, kuva weapons and rivens can be ignored, which is the easier option hence why I don't use rivens. The railjack components are MANDATORY to having your own ship, you can't avoid it here. Its RNG pushed into your face even more than normal, and when I keep getting MK3s that can't beat a mk1 it's rather tiring. And don't even mention vidar mk3 guns because those are awful, yeah 10% chance from a crewship, except thats 1% per possible gun, with no guarantee of good stats. #*!%.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

From yesterday:

 

I saw that. I just don't trust DE to tune the combination of our damage and enemy eHP to something around 4x of our current damage output, which is what Roar gives me right now.

Though even just 3x would probably be workable. I still don't see that happening.

If you use the rough 'numbers' DEMarcus gave us, a level 45 Exo Elite Cutter goes from ~17k eHP to ~10k eHP. So unless they also double our damage numbers, it won't be enough to bring the TTK down to a manageable level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

honestly the stats are less then desired. and it doesn't really help when there is someone stirring up trouble. if there is even a slight chance of an mk3 being worse the and mk1 it still needs to be checked. if the key stats that people are more concerned with on a mk3 get lower then a mk1 then it is considered less then the mk1. look  everyone in this game should know that most of the player base is obsessed with making their builds more and more efficient.

if an mk3 has even a single possibility of not being really better then an mk1 even if it is blow out of proportion, which mind you i doubt its heavily blow out of proportion because this is bassiclly a brand new game play that gots some considerably hefty amount of date that pretty much no human can solve with the giving time. there is bound to be details and things that have issues. 

and yes i am pretty sure there has been plenty of people complaining about rivens, and maybe kuva liches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Sigma series want to know your location

Oh yeah, sure, pull one single line out of my entire argument and make a joke about it, because somehow that defeats my entire argument.

Yes, you can build Sigma parts. Sigma MK3 Engines are currently bugged and do almost nothing. All of the Sigma Shield Arrays give such low values they might as well do nothing. Actually, Shields in general do nothing and you are better off going for unique MK3 effects (which Sigma don't have).

And then we have the Reactor.

Yes, the Sigma MK3 Reactor gives you +50 avionics. That is enough to equip ~4 R7 avionics and maybe 2 other avionics. Out of a total of 15 slots. I get that we aren't supposed to fill every slot, but the Sigma reactor barely gives enough to equip the 'mandatory' avionics (Zetki hull weave, bulkhead, hyperstrike, and polar coil) and 2 other avionics of your choice, assuming they don't cost too much. Saying a better reactor isn't necessary is like saying an Orokin Reactor isn't necessary for a warframe. Sure, you don't need an Orokin Reactor to use the frame, but you also don't need to equip mods to use the frame (see the Grendel missions).

The Sigma MK3 parts are useful in the Veil the same way a Lato is useful in T4 Void. Sure, it's better than nothing, but that doesn't mean you will enjoy your time.

The worst part is that it is like trying to mod a pet without forma. You have to mod for eHP, damage, and utilities, and you only have a small amount of capacity and a decent number of very expensive mods.

I know all of this, because I am still using the Sigma MK3 reactor, and it sucks. If I want to equip 1 (one) Battle Avionic, I can't equip any Tactical Avionics. If I want more than 1 Tactical Avionic, I have to sacrifice my fifth Integrated Avionic. I cannot use even half of my grid slots at any time, because I don't have the capacity. I have R3 grid slots with nothing in them because I maxed almost all of my Avionics and still have extra Dirac, but don't have enough Capacity to even equip an avionic that costs 2 points.

So yes, the Sigma series exists. And if you are in Railjack's current endgame, it is barely enough to make your ship functional.

Edited by -AoN-CanoLathra-
Typos
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Oh yeah, sure, pull one single line out of my entire argument and make a joke about it, because somehow that defeats my entire argument.

Yes, you can build Sigma parts. Sigma MK3 Engines are currently bugged and do almost nothing. All of the Sigma Shield Arrays give such low values they might as well do nothing. Actually, Shields in general do nothing and you are better off going for unique MK3 effects (which Sigma don't have).

And then we have the Reactor.

Yes, the Sigma MK3 Reactor gives you +50 avionics. That is enough to equip ~4 R7 avionics and maybe 2 other avionics. Out of a total of 15 slots. I get that we aren't supposed to fill every slot, but the Sigma reactor barely gives enough to equip the 'mandatory' avionics (Zetki hull weave, bulkhead, hyperstrike, and polar coil) and 2 other avionics of your choice, assuming they don't cost too much. Saying a better reactor isn't necessary is like saying an Orokin Reactor isn't necessary for a warframe. Sure, you don't need an Orokin Reactor to use the frame, but you also don't need to equip mods to use the frame (see the Grendel missions).

The Sigma MK3 parts are useful in the Veil the same way a Lato is useful in T4 Void. Sure, it's better than nothing, but that doesn't mean you will enjoy your time.

The worst part is that it is like trying to mod a pet without forma. You have to mod for eHP, damage, and utilities, and you only have a small amount of capacity and a decent number of very expensive mods.

I know all of this, because I am still using the Sigma MK3 reactor, and it sucks. If I want to equip 1 (one) Battle Avionic, I can't equip any Tactical Avionics. If I want more than 1 Tactical Avionic, I have to sacrifice my fifth Integrated Avionic. I cannot use even half of my grid slots at any time, because I don't have the capacity. I have R3 grid slots with nothing in them because I maxed almost all of my Avionics and still have extra Dirac, but don't have enough Capacity to even equip an avionic that costs 2 points.

So yes, the Sigma series exists. And if you are in Railjack's current endgame, it is barely enough to make your ship functional.

Not joking, just saying that Sigma series exist for preparation before jumping into the wreckage. MK 3 Sigma reactor gives 50 increase for a total of 80 that should be enough for basic avionics such as Hull Weave, Bulkhead and Hyperstrike. Enough? No but still good of a service until you get the reactor you want

Is wreckage mandatory? Not really for me, I see it as railjack riven where find them at my own pace but if you see it as mandatory, you do you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, FashionFrame said:

That was never the argument that it has to be the same house, people were sayings that a MK1 can roll higher than a MK3, no mention of houses.

Excuse me? The original statement was a flat "Otherwise what's the point when mk1 has better stats than mk3." Word for word. That is a direct assertion that MK1 parts have better stats. That is a fallacious and irrational absolute statement that is easily destroyed by simply demanding proof. So if you want to argue about what the argument is about you just lost. His statement is an outright falsehood and you trying to defend it by arguing something else entirely is not rational.

"Oh but secondary stats and component modifiers don't count!"

"Oh but some houses have a random chance to roll better primary stats than others in extremely specific circumstances! But remember the other stats that don't exist on MK1 parts don't count!"

Neither of these prove that MK1 parts are better than MK3 parts. They're either an intentional rejection of evidence or an appeal to hypothetical component rolls. MK1 parts do not have better stats than MK3 parts. MK1 parts have fewer stats and factually lower roll chances than comparable items in the MK3 class. Exceptions are not rules and raw data is not an replacement for a functional argument.

Edited by Mints
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, FashionFrame said:

 

7QIBxQH.jpg

Yeah I looked this up the other day, it is a huge red flag on the stat balance, especially how even the best Zekti 3 is only on par with the Sigma 3, and the Sigma 3 is only barely worse than the upper percent of Lavan 3.

The balance across all three of these components is terrible, the stock Sigma on every level past MK1 is better in many cases than most of the RNG loot, especially the Zekti models, which can only hope to match the Sigmas at best in several areas.

Too much of the ranges are utterly uselessly low, no random loot should be worse in every imaginable way than stock equipment with fixed stats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The difference between Riven mods and Railjack components is that Riven mods are one mod that you add to your weapon. They can be very powerful, but they don't determine your base power. You don't have to have a Riven for most guns to be good. You do have to have a Reactor, Shield Array, and Engines for your Railjack to be good.

But... You don't even need a Meta Railjack to begin with

You need a Warframe and correct weapons to play 99% of this game. But you can have a full MK1 Railjack with poor stats and no Reactor and still do Railjack Veil Proxima content, because you don't even need a Railjack.

And what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're talking as if a Reactor with +100 Avionics and +8500 Flux, a Shield Array with +20 billion shield and Engines with +Lightspeed were mandatory to even play Empyrean. They're not. you can perfectly use your Railjack with standard Zetki MKIII Reactors you'll have 25 of per mission, sure you won't be able to equip full Zetki optimized avionics but you'll be fine.

Your comparison doesn't make sense here. You're comparing an Orokin Reactor for your Warframe to a +100 Avionics Reactor for the Railjack. If you want to be consistent, you have to compare an Orokin Reactor to .. whatever Reactor for your Railjack. If you want to compare the Vidar MKIII Reactor with 100 Avionics to something else in the game, do it with an Umbral Forma and R10 Umbral Intensify. And no, you don't need that either on a Warframe to do any T4 Void (or any Warframe content at all).

Don't compare a top-notch Railjack full Meta to a basic functionality of a Warframe. Otherwise, compare your Vidar MKIII Railjack with full Zetki max avionics to a Prime Warframe with Exilus Slot and 8 Umbral polarities. Do you see the point here ?

Edited by Chewarette
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Next-of-Sin said:

Told you to ignore him. He's not here to be constructive.
He understands the point, he doesn't want to acknowledge it.

Hey Sin are you here to threaten to ignore me for the fifth time and not follow through? You know what most people call someone who makes empty threats? A liar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mints said:

You know what most people call someone who makes empty threats? A liar.

You know what most people consider someone that constantly argues everything even after their point is made? A troll.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

You know what most people consider someone that constantly argues everything even after their point is made? A troll.

Works both ways chief. If they keep posting I keep posting. Deal with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mints said:

Excuse me? The original statement was a flat "Otherwise what's the point when mk1 has better stats than mk3." Word for word. That is a direct assertion that MK1 parts have better stats. That is a fallacious and irrational absolute statement that is easily destroyed by simply demanding proof. So if you want to argue about what the argument is about you just lost. His statement is an outright falsehood and you trying to defend it by arguing something else entirely is not rational.

"Oh but secondary stats and component modifiers don't count!"

"Oh but some houses have a random chance to roll better primary stats than others in extremely specific circumstances! But remember the other stats that don't exist on MK1 parts don't count!"

Neither of these prove that MK1 parts are better than MK3 parts. They're either an intentional rejection of evidence or an appeal to hypothetical component rolls. MK1 parts do not have better stats than MK3 parts. MK1 parts have fewer stats and factually lower roll chances than comparable items in the MK3 class. Exceptions are not rules and raw data is not an replacement for a functional argument.

Again you only pick what you want to hear, he didn't once say "ALL MK1 WEAPONS ARE BETTER THAN MK3." It was the statement that you have a CHANCE at an Mk1 being better than MK3.

"That is a direct assertion that MK1 parts have better stats. That is a fallacious and irrational absolute statement that is easily destroyed by simply demanding proof."

I gave your proof, right in the image! Did you seriously not see it? I love how you demand proof and never take the time to research it yourself, and instead, stir up arguments on the forums. Clap clap clap clap clap!!

 

Also read this again: "Otherwise what's the point when mk1 has better stats than mk3."

Stop reading it like he's saying "ALL" do, because no one in their right mind would argue that "ALL" Mk1s are better than MK3s. He's saying that there CAN be MK1s that are better than MK3s.

Again, you can actually get really bad rolls for MK3s, look back at my fantastic graph I drew out JUST FOR YOU, proof that they can actually be worse than MK1s and MANY players agree that this shouldn't be a thing!

--And you quote:

 "Oh but some houses have a random chance to roll better primary stats than others in extremely specific circumstances! But remember the other stats that don't exist on MK1 parts don't count!"

--AGAIN, you are only reading what you want to hear to further cause an argument. I stated, and I quote "What's subjective is the secondary stats, but you can still get awful ones. It all depends on people's play styles and builds. Don't forget that." 

The other stats that don't exist on MK1s....alright. Lets roleplay!

 

I got a "Zetki MK3 reactor with an additional 10 avionics capacity and FIFTY ADDITIONAL FLUX CAPACITY?! HOLY COW BOOK THE CRUISE! WE'RE RICH, BOIS!

You think was worth farming the veil for a reactor that has a single digit percentage chance of dropping and getting that insane low of stats provided in the example? You really going to argue that? When an Mk1 is insanely easier to farm and can still have a chance of getting better stats.

Quote you again: "Oh but secondary stats and component modifiers don't count!"

 

You know what subjective is, right? People can still get awful rolls depending on what their playstyle is.

Say you get the "Shields replenish 50x faster while cloaked." Well, I don't have the cloak mod, that's pointless. And what if I don't want to take up avionics with the cloaking mod?

Let me further explain this to you.

(("Convert 100% consumed flux energy to shields " " Redirect 50 Energy to Shields with every kill" " +10% Tenno shields on Railjack"))  Well, shields are literally useless in high tier missions, same with almost all flux abilities, so forget that. Also useless modifiers.

50% chance to extinguish fire after 5 seconds. So, fires cause, what, like 1-3 damage a second per tick? That's...not worth it. Feels like a wasted space when you could go for a better modifier.

You want GOOD modifiers? The ones for when shields are down (BECAUSE THEY'RE ALWAYS DOWN) "30% of Shield Damage is diverted to increase Turret Damage by up to 300 for the next shot fired" "+25% Railjack damage while shield depleted" "+20% Top Speed while shields are depleted" " +50% boost speed while shield depleted"

 

You have to see what I'm getting at by now, right? You can have BAD ROLLS. So there, I clarified on that, because you seriously don't get it.

And I'm willing to bet you're going to over think on something that I've typed, and try to bend someone's words to help your case.

It doesn't help you, it just makes you seem ignorant. But I do love to further explain things, because I know what OP was meaning, I actually get it.

 

And I've actually shown legitimate proof that MK1s can be better than MK3s.

Can you guess why MK1s can be better than MK3s? Here, let stalker answer that question:

URyWl6c.gif

 

It's RNG dude, it happens. And it's why this topic was originally started, saying that it's really REALLY stupid that MK3s can actually have a chance at REALLY low stats to the point that MK1s are better. Hell, MK2s are even more so better at getting great stats compared to MK3s thanks to RNG. That's ridiculous!!

Random stat generators can be really bad if their lowest numbers are even worse than the starting content.

Do you get it now? Hope so.

But I always have fun getting into these long winded posts, it gives great entertainment because I actually care, and actually take the time to research carefully, carefully read the posts and actually provide a valid argument based on the knowledge I've acquired and provided!

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...