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Can we please have mandatory mods be automatically intigrated into all weapons and warframes?


lightdragon64
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Mandatory mods, in my honest opinion, need to go.

What I mean by mandatory, is that they're mods that go on every build, no matter what you're trying to create, or trying to do.

For instance, odds are that literally everybody has serration and split chamber on every gun in their arsenal, as well as health and shield mods on all their warframes/pets/sentinels.

 

The issue that arises, in my honest opinion, is that there are a ton of unique and interesting mods available for weapons and warframes that don't get used simply because they aren't considered useful or useful enough. For instance, I think that equilibrium is a really cool mod that provides some useful assistance in most missions, however when I go to build my warframes I never even consider installing it because there's already a lot of mods that are more useful, and shouldn't be left out of any build because it would severely cripple your survivability in game.

Let me give you an example.

There are 10 mod slots on every warframe, but no matter what warframe I choose there's a 90% chance that I'll be using a similar load out on literally every single warframe no matter what it is. There might be some variation, but overall there's always a few mods that demand to be used unless I wish to hinder my own effectiveness in the game.

With every warframe I have, these are mods that always get installed, no matter what warframe I choose (excluding Nidus and Inaros)

(Primed) Flow
(Primed) Vigor
(Primed) Continuity
Redirection
Vitality
Steel Fiber
Intensify.

See the problem yet?

That's 7 of the 10 mod slots taken up by mods that (in my honest opinion) are 100% necessary for every build I make, no matter how slight the deviation.
That leaves me with 3 slots to give my build some variation (technically 1 slot, because the other two slots are an aura slot and an exilus slot.)

The problem is, that there's a ton of mods available that offer some interesting change ups to the way you play the game that are ignored because there's no room for them.

Provoked, master thief, Equilibrium, fleeting expertise, reflex guard, and constitution are all mods that I think are useful, and honestly change up the game in really fun ways. However, I never use them because I simply don't have anywhere to put them.

the same goes for weapons in game too. There's no such thing as a build (in my arsenal) that doesn't have the following mods:

Serration
An elemental mod or two (heat, toxin, cold, electricity)
mutli-shot mods (split chamber, vigilante armaments)

and god forbid that you want to make a critical build, because that means having to add another four or so mods to your weapons just to help make the critical chance more effective.

That essentially leaves all my weapon builds with no variation...

One of the most fun things that i like to do occasionally is to load up a weapon with none of the mods above, and instead throw on things like fire rate or reload speed. However, with a load out like this the only enemies that I'll be able to kill effectively would be extremely low level (maybe a maximum of level 20 to 30) it really makes the game more fun to play if you give your weapons more specific usability, such as punch through or illegally high fire rates.

 

Can we please just find a way to automatically integrate all of these mods (at max rank) into all weapons and warframes? It's just becoming a nuscance in all honestly, and I think it would be a nice change of pace if we could at least add a bit more variation to the way we play. I think it would also do a good job helping out new players too, so that way the mods they find can be used to change up the way they play rather than being required in order to progress forward.

 

TLDR: Mandatory mods are horrible, and take up too many slots across all builds, killing most variation, they need to go by being automatically integrated into warframes/weapons/pets/sentinels. Allowing players to make more varied (and fun) builds.

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16 minutes ago, lightdragon64 said:

With every warframe I have, these are mods that always get installed, no matter what warframe I choose (excluding Nidus and Inaros)

(Primed) Flow
(Primed) Vigor
(Primed) Continuity
Redirection
Vitality
Steel Fiber
Intensify.

See the problem yet?

I do!  None of those are mandatory. 😛

(Honestly, I do agree there's a problem, even though  I'm having a little fun with the details.)

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Mandatory mods change with what mods you have access to, which is one of the biggest ways in which your warframes (and weapons) become more powerful with progress. Like, there's a buffed Intensify (spoilers) and if you had Adaptation, that would be replacing that Vigor of yours.

You're also underestimating the variety of builds that exist for frames, though. With weapons, you can pretty much apply the same build to anything in a given slot knowing only its crit and status chance, bit luckily we have rivens to complicate them again. Frames are all over the place with different optimizations for completely different kit.

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I'm beginning to lean towards agreement with the outcome, although not the reasoning. I agree with everyone else here saying that these mods aren't mandatory - hell, for the longest time, I only used quick thinking on my Limbo, that being my only defensive mod. And now it's that and... rolling guard.

 

No, why I'd be down for some innate HP, damage, what have you mods would be to reduce potential player EHP and damage variance. In an action game, it is very important to be able to balance things with a general idea of how fast a player will die and make something else die when fighting something. But with Warframe? Players can have anywhere between 300-ish health to 4500 health, a handful of armour points to hundreds. A part of this (aside from power creep) is good old mods. Player damage mods in particular (normalising DPS builds too much could be problematic to say the least) because right now, it's basically impossible to make something difficult because it's impossible to determine whether something is dealing a reasonable amount of damage to be tough to dodge and what isn't. Looking at the low end, and boom, tanks aren't even noticing. Looking at the high, and even moderately squishy frames are getting deleted by being looked at funny.

Normalising the amount of damage players can take would potentially allow DE to more accurately focus how damaging enemies can be, and in turn make it easier for them to design content that's challenging without being frustrating, and engineer that ebb and flow of combat that a lot of action games rely on, especially shooters with the whole reload cycle combat loop they have going.

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This would mean you would also lose the mod capacity right? And I never put that much health on my frames if they dont need that much defense. I focus on more ability then anything. Also another reason its like this is so you dont have over powered frames. They are pretty strong if you build right at time. And have a mod built in giving you more slots for duration efficiency strength and duration would make frames alot more op in my opinion 

Edited by ResidentOrb21
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Biggest problem is the rampant power creep that creates. Adding mandatory mods to a weapon's base stats and removing the Mod just means that you get an extra Mod slot to add DPS with. If I don't have to put on stuff like Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike and Vital Sense, I'm just going to fill those empty spaces with mods like Argon Scope and Bladed Rounds, or even just more +90% Elemental damage mods. Then a new meta is created with those new mods applied, and all that happens is every weapon gets much more powerful without actually solving the problem of mandatory mods.

I don't think I agree with mandatory Warframe mods. There are plenty of Warframes where I don't need to build for a certain ability stat (eg Loki doesn't need strength, Ember doesn't really need duration, Hildryn doesn't need Flow), and making all the mods fit to give boosts to the stats you need most, while also factoring in survivability, is generally challenging enough on modern Warframes that Mods aren't just "mandatory" because they're objectively the best, unlike with weapons.

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Nezha is the only frame in my arsenal I ever put that many health-oriented mods on, and that's his boss fight build. And that's also including Quick Thinking, which certainly does the same job (better) than piling on another health mod, but not by +% [base stat] like all of these are.

@Loza03, I really don't like the idea of introducing this "balance" as a mechanic in Warframe. It sounds very restrictive and boring. It would allow boss fights to have less boring designs, admittedly. But I'd rather lose weapon builds and all scaling ability damage outright than lose the wild and wacky diversity of ways of staying alive presented by health, armor, damage mitigation, and damage reduction ... and crowd control, warframe arcanes, speed based evasion bonus, life steal, operator arcanes, sentinel revives, flat evasion bonuses....

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The only way you can disagree with OP is that you don't play above level 40. Mods won't make a major difference before that. After that though without them there is no survivability. You will have half of 1hk and weapons reduced to masseuse accessories. 

Warframe has progressed without updating out of play mods. Or those mods along with mastery rank should have a system to permanently infuse those mods. 

There needs to be redundancy pass?

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2 hours ago, lightdragon64 said:

(Primed) Flow
(Primed) Vigor
(Primed) Continuity
Redirection

I do not use any of these in my current favorite frame, and it is not Inaros or Nidus.

And in fact, i would probably never use Redirection with the Exception on Hildryn, and Primed Vigor / Vigor i would also almost never use as well.

And i have several builds with weapons where i do not have any elemental mods, i will agree those are closer to mandatory but even then my favorite weapon currently do not have any slots for elemental mods in the build i am doing.

I would argue the only one that is Mandatory in these examples are Serration and Hornet Strike. And even there one would argue that Amalgam Serration null the Serration part.

So no, i disagree. These are not mods that should be made baseline.

Edited by Hellmaker2004
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Gosh I wish we could get more Amalgams like the first four, mandatory mods with an Exilus built in. I never not use Amalgam Serration considering how damn good it is, and the Organ Shatter and Shotgun Savvy have weak bonuses, but more Amalgams using Barrel Diffusion as a baseline would make building much more fun.

37 minutes ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

The only way you can disagree with OP is that you don't play above level 40. Mods won't make a major difference before that. After that though without them there is no survivability. 

I'm not really sure where to start on this one. I will say that Focus and Arcanes already exist as endgame ways to buff your frame independent of mod loadout.

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8 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

@Loza03, I really don't like the idea of introducing this "balance" as a mechanic in Warframe. It sounds very restrictive and boring. It would allow boss fights to have less boring designs, admittedly. But I'd rather lose weapon builds and all scaling ability damage outright than lose the wild and wacky diversity of ways of staying alive presented by health, armor, damage mitigation, and damage reduction ... and crowd control, warframe arcanes, speed based evasion bonus, life steal, operator arcanes, sentinel revives, flat evasion bonuses....

For one, that's why I pointed out DPS and weapons would probably be a different story, and for another, most 'wacky' builds either operate around the idea of 'don't engage with enemies at all costs' or being a part of the extreme variance. Mapwide CC and invisibility being prime example. Part of this is because frames that are squishy can't risk even being threatened by enemies in the first place.

I'm not suggesting being rid of any of those either. Integrating some of the defensive mods into some other system that players are very likely to get sooner or later, either by the level-up system or by some other system, then that reduces the variance by shaving off the bottom, not the top. If anything, it'd encourage the wackier ways of staying alive, since DE could more freely implement higher damage, without worrying that a not inconsequential percentage of the endgame playerbase will be literally oneshot by it, because most players because the baseline survivability is higher.

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8 hours ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

The only way you can disagree with OP is that you don't play above level 40. Mods won't make a major difference before that. After that though without them there is no survivability. You will have half of 1hk and weapons reduced to masseuse accessories. 

Warframe has progressed without updating out of play mods. Or those mods along with mastery rank should have a system to permanently infuse those mods. 

There needs to be redundancy pass?

I've played most content with Mag while using only like 2 of those mods on her. I've also done +100 lvl content with her. Redirection(experimental build with Primed Vigor is undergoing testing) and Intensify are the only two on his list I use on my current build. 

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Not all of those mods are good on every frame so I don't think I can agree with your premise.

If you want something made innate on all warframes it is vacuum because why isn't it already?
Suicide and reviving just so I can get my Helios Hoover back is fun and everything but I'm sort of over it.

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Again I'd rather have flavored alternatives to those mods that trade a small fraction of the main stat for something handy. More like Amalgam Serration than like, say, the Gladiator and Augur set mods, which are much weaker than their mandatory counterparts and can stack with them. It doesn't require changing any system fundamentals to give us the alternative of Quick Vitality that gives only 330% of base health, but also prevents lethal damage using energy at 100% conversion. Similar mods with slightly different advantages would give us choices to make even for these spots.

Edited by CopperBezel
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14 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Agree on guns. Disagree on frames.

This.

Guns, mainly secondaries, have a huge problem with this mandatory mod problem. If you look at a secondary you'll need Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion every time. These days every secondary build is more or less the same:
Hornet Strike
Barrel Diffusion
Lethal Torrent
(the next 2 being debatable)
(Primed) Pistol Gambit
(Primed) Target Cracker
which leaves ya 3 spaces to fill with some actual creativity which always ends up in 2 elements and a riven in an optimized scenario. You can say "what about status weapons?" as a counter argument but those are in a minority and a smaller minority by the day.

I won't say to outright remove them but having 2 separate slots below the mod build (for example) to place a "damage" mod and a "multishot" mod of choice would resolve this problem while opening the builds to some actual variation instead of the same thing every time.

It would be a decent buff and I don't see it being that broken.

edit: quite honestly, melees could use from this function as well for Primed Pressure Point but I don't see melees having this problem as much as guns.

Edited by _Kiro
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I feel like the better option is to go the Condition Overload route, creating some kind of non-comparative competition to those mandatory mods (more than the "tiny downside with secondary buff" in Amalgam mods, which aren't a bad idea but don't really change enough). It doesn't necessarily add power creep, but does add a touch of extra complexity to make what's mandatory less so.

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The mandatory mod problem doesn’t apply to frames, but weapons? Hoo boy, When was the last time I took of Serration, Split Chamber, Vigilante Armaments, Lethal Torrent, Split Chamber, Vital Sense, Point Strike, Target Cracker, Pistol Gambit in my builds....

They should be better just integrated into the weapon’s base stats. I know it might introduce some power creep but hey, at least it decrease the demand of Riven Mods thus making the mafia suffers.

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On 2020-01-04 at 12:55 AM, CopperBezel said:

Gosh I wish we could get more Amalgams like the first four, mandatory mods with an Exilus built in. I never not use Amalgam Serration considering how damn good it is, and the Organ Shatter and Shotgun Savvy have weak bonuses, but more Amalgams using Barrel Diffusion as a baseline would make building much more fun.

I'm not really sure where to start on this one. I will say that Focus and Arcanes already exist as endgame ways to buff your frame independent of mod loadout.

I kind of forgot about those. I left them on the backburner after the auto fail bug after the teraslyst and the arcane tempo for the millionth time. Couldn't endure anymore grind. Either de has barred me from the exotic arcanes or I'm extremely unlucky.

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Early game serration and the other base damage mods are a nice form of progression for new players. For me I'd rather have those mods than having to relevel every weapon after formaing to even use it. Right now I can throw a forma on, get almost a full build and am good to go. If I had to relevel it to get the stats back then leveling in normal mission gets so much worse and you'd basically have to go to one of the leveling nodes.

Like a few other people I disagree that frames have mandatory mods. I do agree that weapon build variety is rather lacking. I agree with CopperBezel that the solution should be more variants like the amalgam mods. We just need to have enough of them to matter for the overall build variety. Of course not only for weapons but also for frames because why not.

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On 2020-01-03 at 10:04 PM, lightdragon64 said:

Mandatory mods, in my honest opinion, need to go.

What I mean by mandatory, is that they're mods that go on every build, no matter what you're trying to create, or trying to do.

For instance, odds are that literally everybody has serration and split chamber on every gun in their arsenal, as well as health and shield mods on all their warframes/pets/sentinels.

 

The issue that arises, in my honest opinion, is that there are a ton of unique and interesting mods available for weapons and warframes that don't get used simply because they aren't considered useful or useful enough. For instance, I think that equilibrium is a really cool mod that provides some useful assistance in most missions, however when I go to build my warframes I never even consider installing it because there's already a lot of mods that are more useful, and shouldn't be left out of any build because it would severely cripple your survivability in game.

Let me give you an example.

There are 10 mod slots on every warframe, but no matter what warframe I choose there's a 90% chance that I'll be using a similar load out on literally every single warframe no matter what it is. There might be some variation, but overall there's always a few mods that demand to be used unless I wish to hinder my own effectiveness in the game.

With every warframe I have, these are mods that always get installed, no matter what warframe I choose (excluding Nidus and Inaros)

(Primed) Flow
(Primed) Vigor
(Primed) Continuity
Redirection
Vitality
Steel Fiber
Intensify.

See the problem yet?

That's 7 of the 10 mod slots taken up by mods that (in my honest opinion) are 100% necessary for every build I make, no matter how slight the deviation.
That leaves me with 3 slots to give my build some variation (technically 1 slot, because the other two slots are an aura slot and an exilus slot.)

The problem is, that there's a ton of mods available that offer some interesting change ups to the way you play the game that are ignored because there's no room for them.

Provoked, master thief, Equilibrium, fleeting expertise, reflex guard, and constitution are all mods that I think are useful, and honestly change up the game in really fun ways. However, I never use them because I simply don't have anywhere to put them.

the same goes for weapons in game too. There's no such thing as a build (in my arsenal) that doesn't have the following mods:

Serration
An elemental mod or two (heat, toxin, cold, electricity)
mutli-shot mods (split chamber, vigilante armaments)

and god forbid that you want to make a critical build, because that means having to add another four or so mods to your weapons just to help make the critical chance more effective.

That essentially leaves all my weapon builds with no variation...

One of the most fun things that i like to do occasionally is to load up a weapon with none of the mods above, and instead throw on things like fire rate or reload speed. However, with a load out like this the only enemies that I'll be able to kill effectively would be extremely low level (maybe a maximum of level 20 to 30) it really makes the game more fun to play if you give your weapons more specific usability, such as punch through or illegally high fire rates.

 

Can we please just find a way to automatically integrate all of these mods (at max rank) into all weapons and warframes? It's just becoming a nuscance in all honestly, and I think it would be a nice change of pace if we could at least add a bit more variation to the way we play. I think it would also do a good job helping out new players too, so that way the mods they find can be used to change up the way they play rather than being required in order to progress forward.

 

TLDR: Mandatory mods are horrible, and take up too many slots across all builds, killing most variation, they need to go by being automatically integrated into warframes/weapons/pets/sentinels. Allowing players to make more varied (and fun) builds.

 

Mods (gear, items, armor or whatever you want to call them) that improve stats are necessary for: 1) improving stats, 2) progression (as you make mods stronger). And there needs to be a cap. Also, it is normal that similar builds, among different frames, will share similar mods. Most Tanky frames will use the 3 Umbra mods. Most caster frames use streamline and fleeting expertise. None of this is exclusive to WF. And if we remove it, the mod capacity will need to be limited to 4 or less, and we will have no gear (mod) progression.

Also:

I rarely use flow. The only 2 frames I use it on are Garuda and Trinity (on Ivara, but it is not needed). There is very limited use to increasing your energy base. Energy regeneration is where it is at. Streamline and fleeting expertise are far more important.

Rarely ever use vigor. Tanky frames rarely use shields, so it is a waste. I use it sometimes on caster frames instead of vitality mod, if they have high base shields.

I will concede on continuity. I use primed continuity and/or narrow minded on most frames (though many times, to counter fleeting expertise more than anything).

Redirection is useless on most tanky frames. If your frame has at least 150 armor base, you should not invest in shields at all. Waste of mod capacity.

Steel fiber is useless on frames with less than 150 armor base.

Corrupted mods are far almost mandatory late game on many frames. I do not think there is a single frame that I do not have at least 1 corrupted mod on (unless it is a frame that I do not use at all). 

Hunter adrenaline/rage is also used on many builds. 

Adaption is very important to tanky frames. Rarely ever used on none tanky ones. 

--------

Let me demonstrate how different builds can be from just three frames:

Valkyr every day ~50-120 level build + assassinations + kuva liches: Steel charge, power drift, narrow minded, adaption, Hunter adrenaline, 3 umbras, eternal war and streamline.

Volt, nuker build: Growing power, power drift, fleeting expertise, redirection, streamline, stretch, primed continuity, blind rage, over extend, augur message. 

Ivara, spy build: Corrosive projection, vigor, fleeting expertise, infiltrate, streamline, primed continuity, redirection, primed flow and intensify (honestly, do need intensify here and I could drop it for rush). 

Are these builds the same? No. They use different mods. The common thread is ability efficiency and ability duration. 

--------

Also: "Provoked, master thief, Equilibrium, fleeting expertise, reflex guard, and constitution are all mods that I think are useful, and honestly change up the game in really fun ways. However, I never use them because I simply don't have anywhere to put them." No S#&$. You need to forma if you are going to deeply invest in a frame. This is where the gear (mod) progression is at. 

Hint, do not use equilibrium. It may seem like a good mod, but it is a waste of space. Use Magus Repair on operator. Thank me later.

--------

My biggest issue with modding, is that some augments are absolute must. I have 2 main builds for Valkyr: the one above and arbitration pushing build. Both use eternal war. Every single mag build I use uses polarize augment. 

Edited by (PS4)thegarada
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