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60/60 Crit Mods?


Kingsmount
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I really wish there were more critical mods.   Would it make any sense for 60/60 crit mods to be a thing?   Less sense than status/element, since elements themselves are related to statuses.  

But perhaps 60/60 Crit mods could be a thing using BPS instead of elements.    Or since 60% crit isn't that much compared to status,   They might be 60-100% BPS with 80-160% crit?

 

Alternatively,  we might get mods that directly increase BASE crit chance.   A 10 rank mod with +1-2 Base Crit per rank.  Can do the same for status too.

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12 hours ago, Kingsmount said:

BPS

You mean IPS. Impact/Puncture/Slash.

12 hours ago, Kingsmount said:

Would it make any sense for 60/60 crit mods to be a thing?

I would like to see them, I'll agree. But we have to also consider the weighting of it relative to other mods. You have to consider that there really aren't many other good ways to get high status chance besides those dual stat mods.

13 hours ago, Kingsmount said:

They might be 60-100% BPS with 80-160% crit?

We have IPS mods that grant 120% and 30% on guns (rare and common variety), or 120% and 90% on melee (both rare).

We have gun crit mods that either grant 150% flat, or 135% while aiming (after a headshot).
We have melee crit mods that either grant 120% flat (x2 on Heavy), or 60% stacking with each combo point (this is the more popular option).

If this were a thing, they may have to completely rebalance both the IPS and crit mods to begin with.

It might be reasonable to see 90/90 dual stat - one of the IPS stats with +90% crit - for both guns and melee. Not sure we really need help making crit builds, though...

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1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

You mean IPS. Impact/Puncture/Slash.

I would like to see them, I'll agree. But we have to also consider the weighting of it relative to other mods. You have to consider that there really aren't many other good ways to get high status chance besides those dual stat mods.

We have IPS mods that grant 120% and 30% on guns (rare and common variety), or 120% and 90% on melee (both rare).

We have gun crit mods that either grant 150% flat, or 135% while aiming (after a headshot).
We have melee crit mods that either grant 120% flat (x2 on Heavy), or 60% stacking with each combo point (this is the more popular option).

If this were a thing, they may have to completely rebalance both the IPS and crit mods to begin with.

It might be reasonable to see 90/90 dual stat - one of the IPS stats with +90% crit - for both guns and melee. Not sure we really need help making crit builds, though...

 

Yes, IPS.  Sorry, played d&d recently.  BPS felt wrong but it didn't click why. (Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing).

 

I absolutely feel like we do need more crit mods.  Crit mods are lackluster for primary and secondary weapons.  Melee is fine, but primary and secondary aren't.

Crit doesn't feel good unless you exceed 100%,  because even 100% of 15 only gives you 30.  Even a high 25% only gives you 50.  You have to really dump excessive percentages,  I mean it'd take 300% to turn a 25 into 100%.   And then this is on top of the way crit works in warframe where you want to exceed 100% crit chance to hit higher crit tiers.  

Meanwhile the crit mods for primaries and secondaries aren't great.   The crit buff to melee feels great.   

But I'm struggling to ever find any reason to use any of my primary or secondary weapons so far, nothing I have compares to melee...  Or perhaps rather, it requires way too much investment to make a primary or secondary feel worth using compared to melee, since I do have reasonable mods and reasonable weapons such as the Dread, Opticor Vandal, Rubico Prime, and so on.  Or perhaps my sense of balance is skewed and guns aren't even meant to scale high enough to feel useful against Railjack enemies,  only condition overload or heavy scythe attacks seem to do anything to them. 

Edited by Kingsmount
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2 minutes ago, Kingsmount said:

Crit doesn't feel good unless you exceed 100%,  because even 100% of 15 only gives you 30.  Even a high 25% only gives you 50.  You have to really dump excessive percentages,  I mean it'd take 300% to turn a 25 into 100%.   And then this is on top of the way crit works in warframe where you want to exceed 100% crit chance to hit higher crit tiers.  

To be fair, maybe the crit mods shouldn't be multiplicative to begin with. Would be easier to balance overall.

2 minutes ago, Kingsmount said:

But I'm struggling to ever find any reason to use any of my primary or secondary weapons so far, nothing I have compares to melee

I do feel the same way at higher levels. Then again, I don't care for the "broken" guns.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

To be fair, maybe the crit mods shouldn't be multiplicative to begin with. Would be easier to balance overall.

 

The main issue with that is that any crit mod would then be just as effective with any weapon then,  and the base stats of the weapon would become mostly irrelevant.    If I get what you mean. 

Whether that's a problem depends on desired game design.     And if so, they should do the same to status. 

With such a balance the 60/60 status mods would instead be 25% base status for example,  so all four equal 100% status.

 

The existing basic status mods are a good example of mods that should definitely become base value additions,  with old status mods being as awful as just +15% status I believe.  Which would be fine if it were adding to the base status that gets multiplied by other real status mods. 

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38 minutes ago, Kingsmount said:

any crit mod would then be just as effective with any weapon then

I think this would be a good thing, actually. More weapon variety.

38 minutes ago, Kingsmount said:

the base stats of the weapon would become mostly irrelevant

Not necessarily. Fire rate, base damage, spread, damage types, firing and reload mechanisms, pellet count, etc.

Also depends on just how much crit can come from mods. If they made this change, I'd also expect them to go through all the different weapons and change how much base crit they have - because where it's at right now includes crit mods being multiplicative to begin with.

I actually think it's a problem that most weapons need 2-4 mods boosting status chance for a weapon's status chance to start to matter. We shouldn't have to stack ridiculous amounts of mods doing basically the same thing to make a build work.

It's also why, on melee weapons, Blood Rush just absolutely blows True Steel out of the water, and basically forces any crit-centric melee build to use it.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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3 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

To be fair, maybe the crit mods shouldn't be multiplicative to begin with. Would be easier to balance overall

To be fair, I'm of the opinion that none of our mods should be multiplicative...

The whole problem with the way things like Range for melee worked before they updated melee was that they were multiplicative, giving weapons with already high stats an unfair increase in proportion to the weapons with neutral or 'negative' range.

We never put an Armour mod on a frame that has low stats in the first place because 110% of 15 Armour is still a joke. Same with the Health mods, meaning we get frames like Inaros and Chroma with such fantastically multiplied Effective Health thanks to the combo of base stats and ability based damage reduction, versus a frame like Banshee who falls over the second you stop paying attention because she has neither EHP nor any damage mitigation.

If every single mod we had was additive to base, rather than multiplicative to base, it would be incredibly easy to balance and rebalance.

So having a Crit mod that gave an additive 50% Crit Chance would be great all across the board, able to give weapons like the Nukor a 53% chance from 3%, and take advantage of its massive 4x Crit Multiplier while a mod that gives a multiplicative 150% Crit Chance is only useful on a weapon if it's got around 20% chance already, and does almost nothing for weapons that have less.

I mean, yeah, sure, it would mean a rebalance of Primary weapons and Warframes base stats across the board, which would be a hell of a lot of work for DE...

But it would be worth it, I feel, to ensure that the modding calculations are all incredibly simplified by it.

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considering how niggling DE was with their creteria about what can go into the weapon exilus slot and what not (every mod that touches DPS even just a bit in seemingly not kosher), i don't think they will consider this.

personlly ofc, i would like such mods too ^^)

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