Stealth in this game is dead

[Sivialus]

Stealth in wf need some serious rework because if you don't have invisibility - you better go guns blasing. Enemies can see you crouching in like 50 meters behind the bush. So there's some ideas:

1) Enemy recognition time. When they saw you in crouched state - they must to spend some time (depends on range) to understand that they see tenno (giving you a chance to relocate), and only then start shooting. If you left their line of sight before recognition - they go to investigate last known position. If not - they start to shoot.

2) Stealth tools - we need ability to see enemy's line of sight (could be ideal if you start to see line of sight of the enemy if you're crouched for 5 seconds). Smoke bombs you can toss into room to slip unseen. Holographic suit to disguise yourself as enemy. Hide in a locker to wait out alert.

3) More secret passages - vents, wall cavities, catwalks and so on. More objects to hide behind.

There's a word "ninja" in wf's tagline, so i hope DE will do something about it.

P.S.: sorry for my english.

 

 

[DistantVocoder]

so easy to stealth with a rhino, you just don t get it, that s all.

And for "line of sight", look where ennemies are looking, it s as simple as that.

Edited January 4, 2020 by DistantVocoder

[DrakeWurrum]

Stealth isn't dead.

However, I would like to see it encouraged and incentivized more. So I do agree that they need to make it easier to avoid enemy detection, and provide us with more secret/hidden paths we can utilize.

[Sivialus]

2 часа назад, DrakeWurrum сказал:

Stealth isn't dead.

Maybe, but really close to dead. DE just slapped invisibility to the game and called it "stealth". 

[fr4gb4ll]

it's not that stealth is dead, but it's trival and un-fun since DE implemented the 'awareness' of enemies to prevent fast affinity/focus gaining... and then they released onslaugh instead which surpasses the stealth gains in those points by far...

i'm sure they meant well when changing the stealth system, but it's obvious to me that they either not really testing those changes themself or that they have a complete different way of thinking how some mechanics should work... sadly, stealth seems to had falling into this dev-trap <pun intended>

to make things even worse, now that we had channeling removed, we can't even 'dissolve' dead enemies anymore - i bet, most people never realized that stealth-melee killing while channeling dissolved the corpses so they won't get spotted while lying around for far longer. add to this the totally unlogic of enemies being alerted when getting shot in the face with 15 bullets in less than one second and thus not giving out the stealth bonus (resetting, actually) - worse yet, every enemy around this target also gets alerted, even if not wittnessing this brutal assault o their comrade... mind you, i speaking of a silent weapon here... in short, the whole awareness system works bad, real bad - might not be that the original system was perfect (and lets be honest, it really was too easy), but it was by far more intuitive than what we have now.

[Aldain]

The MR19 test after the buffs to enemy awareness is a good measure of how absurd it can be.

I got noticed by an enemy while jumping off the starting platform during my practice attempts, multiple times I might add. That alone is a huge issue, but there is also the issue that awareness among enemies spreads like the flu, if one enemy is alerted every enemy in the room (and about 3 rooms away) suddenly becomes omniscient and will know where you are through walls even if the enemy didn't manage to fire a single shot.

Without an alarm enemies from 2-3 rooms over shouldn't be aware of you because one enemy noticed you but far too often I've had this be the case, far too often I might add. The time an enemy has between "suspicious" and "alert" is also insanely small meaning there is little room for error before everything in the tileset knows you're there.

Enemy line of sight is also irritatingly unpredictable, though that more stems from the enemy pathing being awful than the actual line of sight, if an enemy winds up getting stuck on a corner or bumps into another enemy for example it will spaz out left and right at a high speed and so will its huge cone of vision.

Really the problem with what is now present in stealth is that it is now so easy to be detected that it isn't even worth it to bother trying unless your name is Loki or Ivara.

[Ham_Grenabe]

The interesting thing I find about stealth in WF is that a) it's much more valuable when you're new to the game, and b) you're almost always better off moving faster to remain stealthy. 

On the other hand, Warframe doesn't really jibe with "stealthy ninja" gameplay anyway, despite the tagline. It's just not structured for subtle assassin play -- you're better off completing missions through speed, surprise, and overwhelming violence.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Stealth was never really alive in the sense that it was a viable alternative playstyle to running and gunning. They did constantly talk about improving on it way back in the day, which is got us the stealth xp multiplier, but as time passed and people's questions about more stealth improvements piled up in the devstream questions, their responses slowly condensed down to "the game animation system and AI dont support it, we gotta work on those first.", and "better support for stealth play will naturally emerge as we improve other systems"

Yeah, that never happened, obviously.

People had a lot of cool suggestions that DE pooled in a semi official thread(OP by user, but pinned at the top of the feedback forums by DE). It lasted a long time, but eventually was removed from being pinned and disappeared into the aether of the archive. From that point on forward, DE stopped talking about improving it and only ever mentioned it when something about the stealth xp multiplier was bugged. Spy vaults never rewarded stealth play over waltzing in because you'd be much better or just rhino stomping the entire room or running through lasers with limbo or ivara.

What I think happened, personally, is that DE didn't want to bother balancing the viability of stealth for frames that can go invisible versus those that cant, and just left it there. The last time they ever talked about doing something against the supremacy of invis frames was when they were working on introducing hyekka masters. Originally they were supposed to be able to see through invisibility, or at least detect frames that are in some way, but apart from some bugged out AI that allows her to throw grenades at you even though you're invisible as long as she's aware of you, that didn't happen either. Guess that whacky mechanic is a remnant of their attempt to give that unit a stealth detecting mechanic.

[DrakeWurrum]

21 hours ago, Aldain said:

Really the problem with what is now present in stealth is that it is now so easy to be detected that it isn't even worth it to bother trying unless your name is Loki or Ivara.

Or Octavia. Or Ash. Occasionally Wisp, but that's less reliable.

21 hours ago, Aldain said:

The MR19 test after the buffs to enemy awareness is a good measure of how absurd it can be.

Last time I saw somebody complaining about that test, I went in myself with a Volt (obviously not a stealth frame) and a single sword (for the faster stealth attack animation, I usually have Dual Kamas Prime on him). Took me 30 minutes to pull it off, about... 5 tries?

The LOS issues were only really apparent on the final platform, but definitely highlights that DE has given up on stealth. I'm just saying it's not dead because you can still do it.. if you care enough to. Sometimes I've stealthed through maps without meaning to because... somehow I avoided detection and alarms without actually meaning to. I just moved through that quick.

Edited January 5, 2020 by DrakeWurrum

[Xzorn]

Warframe - Tanks Play Free

Stealth play was probably hit hardest when the Focus system came out. I recall counting 8 or 9 direct or indirect nerfs to stealth from DE trying to curve stealth farming Focus. As a result we've been left with pretty much non-function stealth without invisibility and even with invisibility it's becoming less of a viable option.

Stealth was probably most viable as a play style in the Damage 1.0 days.

Back then you couldn't turn off alarms once they were triggered and enemies were much more of a confrontation so there was a reasonable comparison between stealth and not tripping alarms or running through the mission guns blazing. Allowing players to turn off Alarms was probably the very first strike to stealth oh so very long ago.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

I still feel like Ivara needs to have the limitations on her movement speed removed while in stalk. Just have her use steadily more energy burn the longer she's moving at a high speed. Yes Ivara can be a stationary sniper by sitting on one of her cloak arrows but the reality is the real use of these is to shoot your team mates while you stay in stalk. 

In total, Ivara is the single most boring frame in the game to play. Oh sure there's skill involved. You have to be able to land your shots and all. But she is none the less the most boring calls in the game to play. I would be fine with it if, as i mentioned before, she had the ability to sight through walls based on the punch through of her equipped weapon, but she doesn't so.. oh well. I do still play with ivara... But she is an incredibly, incredibly boring frame to use. "Wahh ivara is the best frame!" some people will shout... sure if you like sitting around with your thump up your ass while everyone else runs around having fun like toddlers on a sugar fueled rampage. Ivara works good if you're in a coordinated team who's going to call out heavy targets for you to sit up on high and snipe and will stand still for the one second it takes to locate them and hit them with a cloak arrow to keep them invisible, but in random matches it's basically a frame for you to sit around and let everyone else do everything. Sure you can basically walk though spy missions, so can several other frames that /aren't/ dull to play.

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Or Octavia. Or Ash. Occasionally Wisp, but that's less reliable.

Last time I saw somebody complaining about that test, I went in myself with a Volt (obviously not a stealth frame) and a single sword (for the faster stealth attack animation, I usually have Dual Kamas Prime on him). Took me 30 minutes to pull it off, about... 5 tries?

The LOS issues were only really apparent on the final platform, but definitely highlights that DE has given up on stealth. I'm just saying it's not dead because you can still do it.. if you care enough to. Sometimes I've stealthed through maps without meaning to because... somehow I avoided detection and alarms without actually meaning to. I just moved through that quick.

I got through the test as well, but maybe just the Switch version detection radius was buggier than normal, I swear I got detected instantly after jumping off the starting platform a few times during my practice attempts. Oddly enough it took me roughly the same number of attempts to chart a path through the mission and only one attempt to clear it.

My point was more that there isn't really a method to the madness, stealth under almost every other game is usually a slower and more methodical thing, here it is the opposite where going faster and killing as fast as possible is the only way to not get detected, which makes "Stealth" not much different from plowing through the mission with a shotgun.

It isn't dead no, but they REALLY hammered it down, and honestly it is a bit of a shame that one of the few things that was slower paced and methodical in Warframe has been neutered because of whatever reason DE decided on. I used to enjoy doing purposeful stealth runs with non-invisible frames before the change, now I just tend to unga-bunga my way through everything with a Loki because it isn't worth even bothering doing it with anything else.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2020‎-‎01‎-‎04 at 6:55 PM, Aldain said:

Really the problem with what is now present in stealth is that it is now so easy to be detected that it isn't even worth it to bother trying unless your name is Loki or Ivara.

So true.  I've had enemies detect me or a killed enemy from ranges as far as 100m.  With the enemies having detect range that high, it almost impossible to stay undetected in the smaller maps of the regular missions.  

Then DE removed channeling which allowed destroying the bodies of enemies.

@Xzorn is correct that stealth mechanics started being nerfed hard after focus came out.  

4 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Stealth was never really alive in the sense that it was a viable alternative playstyle to running and gunning.

before the nerfs which increased enemy awareness ranges, I was able to stealth a good bit of the game without using invisibility.  This is no longer the case.  

[ganjou234]

Man....I remember sneaking through a rescue w/o stealth as an Excal/Rhino.... MR1-10 days....We marked then sync shotted the wardens...

That was really cool..

[Teridax68]

As with many discussions of this type, nuance would benefit conversation I think:

• Stealth isn't "dead" in the sense that it's not literally impossible to do, but it is certainly heavily flawed and dysfunctional now, for many different reasons. It could thus certainly benefit from improvements if it is still to be a playstyle in this game.
• Stealth is currently dominated by invisibility abilities, which are generally considered mandatory to participate in stealth gameplay. This phenomenon has been worsened by degradations in the ability to "naturally" engage in stealth, and an increasing number of invisibility abilities that can also bypass certain obstacles entirely, namely lasers.
• Stealth gameplay is far slower than guns-blazing gameplay, is far harder and less reliable to succeed at, yet brings the same rewards outside of Affinity. There are thus few to no incentives to play stealthily, outside of Affinity farming which is typically done using hyper-niche builds anyway.
• A lot of enemies now outright ignore invisibility effects, e.g. Thumpers and Orb Mothers, while most content that currently qualifies as "endgame", e.g. ESO, Arbitrations, etc., are clearly not designed with stealth in mind, as they promote horde mode-style combat instead.
• There is currently no reliable or generally-available way of making corpses disappear, and melee finishers draw the attention of nearby enemies, making it very difficult to perform surgical stealth eliminations without accidentally alarming other units.
• The addition of weapon exilus slots has made it possible to silence our weapons without sacrificing a damage slot, but as per the above, that is still not really enough to make stealth gameplay viable.

So effectively, we lack many innate tools to engage in stealth gameplay, with invisibility largely acting as a crutch, but on top of that the game has shifted to a state where there's no real reason to play stealthily, namely because many relevant missions make it outright impossible. As such, it would help the game if it introduced a balance of high-level missions that emphasized stealth, but also tweaked the game's different systems relating to stealth to make it more functional. Additionally, it would help to add some incentives to play stealthily, e.g. hidden rooms with valuable goodies that would lock permanently if the alarms get triggered, or extra rewards when doing stuff in stealth. Invisibility abilities also likely need to be looked at, as their abusive nature is likely why increasingly more enemies have been made to invalidate them.

[SordidDreams]

While I mostly agree, stealth is not quite dead yet. Stealth farming Flexa with Ivara is very much a thing right now, and for what it's worth I do actually enjoy it. It's the only place where the game gives you incentive to play as a space ninja rather than as space Rambo.

Edited January 6, 2020 by SordidDreams

[Sivialus]

Btw, even rakta dark dagger's buff is broken. 

[Sivialus]

Well, for a moment I thought that maybe stealth depends on lighting... (it is not)

And I understood that we can't even tell if it's a shadow or not :)

Hey, it's looks like a shadow...

 

Nope

[mrrobotto67]

Well, i do think that we could use more insentives on playing the game stealthy other than having extra affinity from stealth kills, because aside from that, there is no diference (rewards wise) on playing it stealthy or going loud and proud. 

[Zectico]

Not dead, just challenging. Thing is, players often don't like challenge if it requires planning.

 

[Long edit]: I'm saying this as someone who never used any defensive mods until Arbitration came out (glass cannons ftw) - using stealth to supplement survivability instead. Though stealth in solo is often slow, it can speed up co-op matches by allowing you to deal much higher DPS than players who spent mod capacity on survivability. In return, your team is able to tank damage while you fire from the back lines - or while hiding on the ceiling.

Stealth is viable in any mission, but with the downside of having to learn enemy AI patterns, and having to bring the right weapons/companions to deal with different problems.

The problem is that stealth is unforgiving. Small mistakes result in having to wait for revives, or even game-overs.

As for your concerns:

Enemy recognition time: AI Response time is actually quite long at low levels, but scales up with harder enemies. The long delay at low levels makes enemies feel incompetent, as you can often get away with rolling right through them. My preferred solution for leaping gaps is to kill witnesses when moving between cover (made especially easy with the new weapon Exilus slots allowing space for silenced mods), but radiation is just as effective if you're not farming stealth affinity. Another great way is just to use Spuds (see below).

Stealth Tools: Potato children (I'll call them "Spuds" for short) are absolutely amazing for getting around unseen. They can even walk through Nullifier bubbles while invisible. Void Sprint feels great as part of any stealth loadout, and some Spuds can even cloak allies. Magus Lockdown is also great for "sleeping" enemies within 20m when needed. Spuds can also rag doll enemies, preventing them form triggering alarms and responding to threats, with some skills even opening alerted enemies to finishers.

More secret passages: Nearly every tile can be traversed stealthily, with a surprising number of shortcuts and hidden trails. The problem is doorways, which never have shortcuts due to the game's tile-generation constraints. That's why you need to bring some tools to stun, kill, or even just hide. Enemies will also never look up, so don't forget to wall-cling often to get around.

You may have noticed, but near every solution requires some forethought while equipping your Warframe. This, and the increased risk of failure makes stealth more of a nuisance at times.

The reason stealth isn't popular is since all these problems can be solved with a Vitality and Steel Fiber, with stealth becoming even less relevant after the release of the insanely strong Umbral mod sets. Though tank builds cost more in terms of grind, they are punished far less for mistakes in game play, and work effectivly even without specialized tools.

^{_{Huras Kubrows can really help (don't use Shade, it's cloak is shorter and harder to activate). Octavia is also ridiculously strong as the rollers distract enemies even after you get spotted.}}

Edited January 9, 2020 by Zectico

[MysticDragonMage]

what i would personally like with the delayed reaction is the ability to stealth kill enemies from the front, giving us the ability to perform multiple stealth kills upon groups of enemies.

maybe even give us mimic technology like the Sentients as a hiding mechanic?

it would also be cool if enemies about to sound the alarm are marked, cause half of the time i dont even know when someone is triggering it.

basic indicators of alert status would also be nice. specifically Sound and HUD indicators similar to elder scrolls and of course MGS.

there are also two ways a player could be incentivised to playing the stealth route.

• special enemies that only appear if a player is not yet detected. these enemies would be designed like lookouts and have special tools to detect tenno, making them a challenge to kill quietly. they would also drop special rewards a player can find useful long term.
• potential to make some missions take less steps to complete.
  • assassinate: bosses will be unaware of your presence and waiting for you in their boss room, allowing you to perform a sneak attack for extra damage starting out the fight and no enemy reinforcements to support them.
  • spy: Vault C will contain all 3 data encryptions if undetected.
  • exterminate: less enemies if undetected.
  • capture: ability to stealth kill the target and capture than instantly.
  • mobile defense: enemies will not attack each terminal if undetected and terminal hacking process would be shortened.
  • etc.

On 2020-01-05 at 5:40 PM, AuroraSonicBoom said:

What I think happened, personally, is that DE didn't want to bother balancing the viability of stealth for frames that can go invisible versus those that cant, and just left it there. The last time they ever talked about doing something against the supremacy of invis frames was when they were working on introducing hyekka masters. Originally they were supposed to be able to see through invisibility, or at least detect frames that are in some way, but apart from some bugged out AI that allows her to throw grenades at you even though you're invisible as long as she's aware of you, that didn't happen either. Guess that whacky mechanic is a remnant of their attempt to give that unit a stealth detecting mechanic.

that's crazy. TBH, i think it would have worked out if they added more than just a single unique enemy. i honestly would think it would be fair if invisibility didn't work for stealth in high levels if every warframe had the potential to use stealth efficiently without it. i do expect some kind of nerf to invisibility along with my suggestions.

[kgptzac]

I think the issue is that some people have too narrow of a definition for "stealth", to the point they forget Warframe is a game about killing lots of enemies, fast, and loot their items from their dead, cold hands.  Duration Loki rampage thru extermination is stealth, the old Naramon spin2win was stealth, and Octavia full squad invisibility is also stealth.  It is ludicrous to demand non-invis frames to have the same efficiency in getting those sweet stealth takedown affinity bonus.

[Sivialus]

3 часа назад, kgptzac сказал:

I think the issue is that some people have too narrow of a definition for "stealth", to the point they forget Warframe is a game about killing lots of enemies, fast, and loot their items from their dead, cold hands.

 

[DatDarkOne]

6 hours ago, Zectico said:

The reason stealth isn't popular is since all these problems can be solved with a Vitality and Steel Fiber

I don't quite agree with this statement.  I think the main reason Stealth isn't popular with the masses is because there is no reward or incentive for the player to do it.  DE has slowly taken the few incentives there were away.  Mostly as a way to stop fast focus farming.  An idea with I think was unnecessary for them to do since we already have daily focus caps.  

[kapn655321]

On 2020-01-04 at 1:40 AM, Sivialus said:

P.S.

Your english is fantastic, OP. No worries!