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Toppien

so, according to the sacrifice...(spoilers)

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all of the warframes you are not using are suffering a terrible torment?

 

and before you come to me with the bs of "only umbra is like that" we have:

the rhino prime codex, and yes that's rhino prime otherwise why it would be in the RHINO PRIME CODEX ENTRY?

also, Titania's lore entries: normal warframes also have some tortured consciousness inside them

mirage lore entries (texts and prime trailer)

valkyr prime trailer where ballas mentions the exact same process of making a warframe mentioned on the quest

chroma quest, we basically have to put down a rogue warframe

with this out if the way, would stalker be also a rogue warframe?, is the shadow stalker a different warframe from the normal stalker? there's a rogue operator behind this? when are we getting an answer to these questions? never?, next year, on one of the new updates?

idk im just wondering stuff while farming intrinsics with my ivara prime and giant hammer, killing everything on the grineer galleon XD

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That depends on how much you assume about the Rhino Prime codex entries. The original Warframes were made from people and had some measure of autonomy and the ability to feel. Ballas cooked their mindset right into them by giving them a memory or set of memories relevant to their purpose. The Rhino Prime codex regards the first time someone found out that the Tenno children could directly influence the Warframes but that doesn't mean it was a Rhino Prime itself but possibly a Rhino Umbra or a Rhino prototype. Recall that all of our Warframes, save for Umbra, are mass produced from a pattern and/or a set of parts and lack any form of agency (with the potential exception of what happened at the end of The Second Dream.) Do note that we keep something, presumably Warframes themselves, preserved in a Dojo's cryogenic storage. What you are speaking of may be why we do that instead of keeping them in a closet.

A few other notes:

1) Valkyr Prime is a bit of an anomaly since it shares the trauma of its more generic variant. There are theories about this regarding how all Warframes share the same Oro so traumatizing one traumatizes them all. It may be that all Excaliburs share some measure of Umbra's torment or it may be that Umbra's torment is unique. Hard to say.

2) The Chroma in that quest is specifically marked as "Infested" but its behavior is extremely bizarre when compared to other Infested. We know for a fact that the infestation can be used to forcefully control a Warframe even if the person controlling them can't use Transference. Mesa, for example, was controlled by Alad V using infestation. Alad V can usurp control of our Warframes during his Infested boss fight as well.

3) The Stalker refers to himself and others like him as "low Guardians." He may be a sapient Warframe but I don't think he was created that way. Recall the Silver Grove quest. Transference is not exclusive to Tenno. Silvana was an Archimedian and she was perfectly capable of using Transference to permanently inter her consciousness in the Silver Grove. It stands to reason that these low Guardians may be previously normal people that voluntarily chose to be transferred into a Warframe but can't go in and out like we can.

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6 minutes ago, Mints said:

 The Rhino Prime codex regards the first time someone found out that the Tenno children could directly influence the Warframes but that doesn't mean it was a Rhino Prime itself but possibly a Rhino Umbra or a Rhino prototype. Recall that all of our Warframes, save for Umbra, are mass produced from a pattern and/or a set of parts and lack any form of agency (with the potential exception of what happened at the end of The Second Dream.) Do note that we keep something, presumably Warframes themselves, preserved in a Dojo's cryogenic storage. What you are speaking of may be why we do that instead of keeping them in a closet.

I don't think we should, at least yet, asusme that Umbra where made prior Primes. So far the only Umbra is a custom version, the prime one could have been made at same time, from all we know( I don't remenber having a timeline, but i can be slight wrong)

9 minutes ago, Mints said:

1) Valkyr Prime is a bit of an anomaly since it shares the trauma of its more generic variant. There are theories about this regarding how all Warframes share the same Oro so traumatizing one traumatizes them all. It may be that all Excaliburs share some measure of Umbra's torment or it may be that Umbra's torment is unique. Hard to say.

This was somewhat what happened to Revenant. I don't think hat the original one had all the light show that the current eidolon-radiated one has. 

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16 minutes ago, Mints said:

1) Valkyr Prime is a bit of an anomaly since it shares the trauma of its more generic variant. There are theories about this regarding how all Warframes share the same Oro so traumatizing one traumatizes them all. It may be that all Excaliburs share some measure of Umbra's torment or it may be that Umbra's torment is unique. Hard to say.

I would think Valkyr has the same clone memories that Umbra does, since modern Valkyrs are all post-Corpus

Obviously this can't account for Valkyr Prime, but I always assumed that she's actually Gersemi Prime and the devs just didn't name her that for marketing reasons

31 minutes ago, Toppien said:

all of the warframes you are not using are suffering a terrible torment?

Oh geeze, I hope not. In order to control a Warframe at all, you have to calm them down. I both love to think and really hope is canon for Umbra's sake that once we meld with a Warframe, they start having good dreams again

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1 minute ago, LupoDWolf said:

I don't think we should, at least yet, asusme that Umbra where made prior Primes. So far the only Umbra is a custom version, the prime one could have been made at same time, from all we know( I don't remenber having a timeline, but i can be slight wrong)

A very good point. The Vitruvian device that Ballas provided to Hunhow displays a Volt Proto when he references the original "failures." It is possible that the Primes and Umbras didn't come until much later, after the abilities of the Tenno children were discovered.

5 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

This was somewhat what happened to Revenant. I don't think hat the original one had all the light show that the current eidolon-radiated one has. 

I can only imagine the magnitude of that Sentient's power if it touched the Oro of a Warframe and tainted it on an intrinsic level. Truly terrifying to think of an invading alien machine that can manipulate the soul.

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Given that Prime frames are created in an identical fashion to Umbra, every prime frame would have a unique memory through which they can be controlled. They're after all just human hosts that were turned into cyborgs by being exposed to a strain of the infestation(on the physical side) and Kuva(on the mental side). Both substances seem to be instrumental in transforming a person into a warframe.

There's no reason not to assume non primed dont share their prime counterpart's memories.

What you fail to acknowledge is that only frames that through one means or another received the power to move on their own, whether its thorugh void energy, umbral echoes or some other means are conscious, would suffer. The inactive frames in a tenno's arsenal are inactive until they're being transferred into.

Lotus mentioned that the reason she didn't tell the Tenno what they are sooner is because the Stalker went mad when she showed him, implying that it there is indeed an Operator behind the frame. Sure, you could just call "unreliable narrator" on everything the Lotus told us up to this point because of who she turned out to be, but that's pretty unreasonable.

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4 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Lotus mentioned that the reason she didn't tell the Tenno what they are sooner is because the Stalker went mad when she showed him, implying that it there is indeed an Operator behind the frame. Sure, you could just call "unreliable narrator" on everything the Lotus told us up to this point because of who she turned out to be, but that's pretty unreasonable.

The most curious part about the Stalker's journey to the reservoir was how shocked he was to find a child in that cryopod. Lotus does indeed mention that the Stalker was "driven to madness" by the secret of the Reservoir. If that is so then why is he so surprised? This "secret" she mentions him having uncovered must have been incomplete. He knew that there was some consciousness, some other entity, that controls the Warframes. But he didn't know about the Tenno children, else he wouldn't have hesitated. Stranger still, he is so entranced by our Warframe acting on its own that he loses interest in us entirely.

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33 minutes ago, Mints said:

If that is so then why is he so surprised?

Where was he surprised? He clearly knows what an Operator is

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Warframes will do what i say and they will like it.

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21 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Where was he surprised? He clearly knows what an Operator is

If he already knew what we were then why didn't he just kill us on the spot? Why else would he go all the way to the reservoir to kill us but stay his hand at the last second? He clearly expected something different.

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Just wanna throw this out because people often forget about it. During the Second Dream stuff, when the stalker is on your ship, he has your operator by the throat after impaling your warframe. Your warframe acts on its own and breaks the sword. You don't control it.

 

Mine was Excal, but its whatever warframe you had equipped for the mission. Meaning regular ol' warframes have some sentience in there. Not sure what that means, but it did happen.

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5 minutes ago, Mints said:

If he already knew what we were then why didn't he just kill us on the spot? Why else would he go all the way to the reservoir to kill us but stay his hand at the last second? He clearly expected something different.

Ever read stories when you were young?

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I would say it's unlikely, due to the fact they're usually completely stationary, except in times of extreme stress - and even then, only for the Tenno they're currently bonded to. I would assume the vast majority are in an unconscious state for most of their time 'alive'. That's not to say they can't feel, or that they don't have their original selves memories, but I imagine it'd be like being in coma, which many people report as being very much like sleep - a complete blank space in memory. I would imagine being a standard-issue Warframe would be much the same.

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It really depends on the frame. Not all of them, not even those that seem to have an "intellect" of sorts through lore entries, share the umbra process. Atleast not those we have access to, since the umbra process was used on the original frames, prior to primes, umbra excal and our tenno versions. The primes have no real host inside, so no memories or emotions.

The entry in the Rhino prime lore just refers to some Rhino in a long line of Rhino experiments. Experiments that took place after the initial frames turned on their masters. So those entries simply show the process that happened between the orginal frames and the primes. I think even the lore entry regarding Rhino mentions that they've discarded many. This is all in a process where they are trying to make an infested core without emotions etc. In order to have no more frames to turn on their masters.

Mirage is the special case, because she has kept parts of the intellect from the initial host. This can be because the host that became Mirage never actually turned against the Orokin, so the process of making a prime didnt need the intellect and emotion taken away, because it was already stable and working. Hence why the same applies to the tenno made regular Mirage aswell, since the tenno versions are simpler copies of the primes.

For Chroma we dont really know the cause, it can be something as simple as a transferance malfunction, killing the Tenno's physical body and trapping him inside the frame. Or it is just that the Chroma has gone full on A.I. We know there is some form of A.I in Chroma, that is why his living hide works as it does, so it may have taken over the whole thing. They are machines, so a malfunction wouldnt be odd.

Titania is also a brand new type of frame, where the creation process has been different to the regular ones iirc. She falls into the category of odd frames that will be very hard to explain as primes, much like Revenant. Though in Titanias case it can be explained that the regular Titania, the one that the tenno use was the base version, then when it worked a prime version was also made. Though in normal cases the tenno versions came after the primes at the end of the war, those were the frames used by tenno to hunt down remnants of the orokin empire. But since Titania has been a seperate experiment it is probably that a basic "cheap" version was made first.

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25 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Ever read stories when you were young?

I'm not sure I understand the purpose or intention of your question. Everyone read stories when they were young. Care to elaborate?

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2 hours ago, Toppien said:

the rhino prime codex, and yes that's rhino prime otherwise why it would be in the RHINO PRIME CODEX ENTRY?

Haaaave you read Ember Primes Codex entry?  It doesn't have anything directly linked to Ember Prime.

Quote

 

Three figures waited behind a simple table. Their attention on a single chair, bathed in light. An old woman's voice from the shadow: 'Send her in'. Across the room a security officer, stern and plain, opened the door. The outline of a young woman appeared at the door. She hesitated, but only for an instant, then crossed the room and sat.

There was a gasp as the light hit her face. Her right eye was bright and blinking, but her left was a greasy slit. Her skin had been burned moon-white. Her mouth was a sagging gash without lips or expression. Her military beret was pulled snug over a scarred and hairless scalp.

The old voice: 'Your name is Kaleen.' Kaleen nodded. 'You were the principal investigator of the Zariman?' Kaleen's voice was a jagged whisper, a rigid face. 'Yes.'

Kaleen coughed, straightened: 'The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates. Mechanical failure. I notified families and filled a report with the inspectors. Nothing ever returns from the fold, so I closed the case.'

'But you reopened the case, days later.'

'I didn't believe it myself until I stepped aboard the ship. It was completely intact, full environmental, as if it had never left.'

'And the crew was gone.'

'Not exactly.' Kaleen hesitated. 'We thought it was empty but we began to find...' Her face twitched at remembered pain, 'We began to find children hiding in the ship.'

'And that is when you violated procedure?'

Kaleen bowed her head, a tear welling in her sightless eye. 'They were children. They were afraid. They needed comfort.'

'So you broke quarantine and this happened to you.'

There was silence as Kaleen touched her face, 'So what have you done with them?'

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on a military ship?'

'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ember/Prime

 

 

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2 hours ago, Toppien said:

all of the warframes you are not using are suffering a terrible torment?

It's a big question, yes, and the next question is, if not, why not?

Are we "taking their pain away", if so, how did we do that before the sacrifice or even before the Second Dream?

Was that done to them (The Primes) and then a new blueprint taken? (I mean we rebuild Umbra from materials and scans complete with his trauma, and out Valkyr Blueprint bears the Scars of Alad-V)

If so, was every Prime "re-imaged" after the discovery of the Zariman children's abilities?

Can we be sure we're not creating a new suffering being when we build a new warframe? Now that we suspect that can we morally build new warframes without knowing one way or the other?

It's a big problem. Without more information were are on very shaky consent grounds

2 hours ago, Toppien said:

the rhino prime codex, and yes that's rhino prime otherwise why it would be in the RHINO PRIME CODEX ENTRY?

Because it's a precursor to the Rhino Warframe. The Ember Prime codex entry doesn't include any Warframes at all, The codex entries are "On the topic of" not necessarily featuring them. That infested creature existed before the Zariman children were discovered to be capable of Transference, it may have been one of the uncontrolable "Bio-drone" entities but it could not have been a warframe, because Ballas coined that term after the addition of the Zariman children (As per the Titania story)

2 hours ago, Toppien said:

also, Titania's lore entries: normal warframes also have some tortured consciousness inside them

mirage lore entries (texts and prime trailer)

For all we know that was a Tenno-controlled Entity, retaining memories from it progenitor template that the Tenno though were their own (As was said in the second dream, our Tenno thought they were the warframe) Or it could be the earlier bio-drone era, if so were they decomissioned (as Ballas said) and they resurrected after tenno-transference could calm them, then new blueprints taken? But the timeline doesn't really work for that as we know that if Margulis was alive and Working on them then then Tenno were active.

2 hours ago, Toppien said:

chroma quest, we basically have to put down a rogue warframe

Sentient Controlled Warframe, rembember that Chroma was trying to activate (what turned out to be) a sentient relic and we have Hunhow quotes during the Quest (From the "Popol vuh" as a precursor to our understanding Sentient "Religion")

2 hours ago, Toppien said:

with this out if the way, would stalker be also a rogue warframe?, is the shadow stalker a different warframe from the normal stalker? there's a rogue operator behind this? when are we getting an answer to these questions? never?, next year, on one of the new updates?

We don't know enough yet, but the memories of the "low Guardian" in the Stalker Codex don't fit a Tenno, so maybe it is from a Dax who became a Warframe, Maybe they do still have a dreaming operator who's memories are merged with the Warframe Host, hunhow thought he had an operator, and seemed suprised that a non-Tenno controlled Warframe could move.

Maybe the Stalker was make by an Orokin remanant, to hunt us down, using a Tenno not on Lua and a Vengeful Dax. We don't know enough to say

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3 hours ago, Toppien said:

all of the warframes you are not using are suffering a terrible torment?

 

and before you come to me with the bs of "only umbra is like that" we have:

the rhino prime codex, and yes that's rhino prime otherwise why it would be in the RHINO PRIME CODEX ENTRY?

also, Titania's lore entries: normal warframes also have some tortured consciousness inside them

mirage lore entries (texts and prime trailer)

valkyr prime trailer where ballas mentions the exact same process of making a warframe mentioned on the quest

chroma quest, we basically have to put down a rogue warframe

with this out if the way, would stalker be also a rogue warframe?, is the shadow stalker a different warframe from the normal stalker? there's a rogue operator behind this? when are we getting an answer to these questions? never?, next year, on one of the new updates?

idk im just wondering stuff while farming intrinsics with my ivara prime and giant hammer, killing everything on the grineer galleon XD

They are your space bros. Treat them as such.

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I would think Valkyr has the same clone memories that Umbra does, since modern Valkyrs are all post-Corpus

Obviously this can't account for Valkyr Prime, but I always assumed that she's actually Gersemi Prime and the devs just didn't name her that for marketing reasons

My personal theory regarding Valkyr Prime(and any other Prime that doesn't make sense in the context of that frame's lore) is that it's the modern version rebuilt/redesigned with Orokin-grade materials, and is referred to as a Prime for simplicity's sake. As for why they turn up in relics, that's more of a symptom of the Gameplay vs Lore issue.

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5 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Given that Prime frames are created in an identical fashion to Umbra, every prime frame would have a unique memory through which they can be controlled. They're after all just human hosts that were turned into cyborgs by being exposed to a strain of the infestation(on the physical side) and Kuva(on the mental side). Both substances seem to be instrumental in transforming a person into a warframe.

There's no reason not to assume non primed dont share their prime counterpart's memories.

What you fail to acknowledge is that only frames that through one means or another received the power to move on their own, whether its thorugh void energy, umbral echoes or some other means are conscious, would suffer. The inactive frames in a tenno's arsenal are inactive until they're being transferred into.

Lotus mentioned that the reason she didn't tell the Tenno what they are sooner is because the Stalker went mad when she showed him, implying that it there is indeed an Operator behind the frame. Sure, you could just call "unreliable narrator" on everything the Lotus told us up to this point because of who she turned out to be, but that's pretty unreasonable.

This but not this. 

Your frame saves you in second dream and titania saves sylvana in silver grove. 

Also, its my personal headcanon that there is a clone bank hidden on our oribiters that provides bodies used in conversion when we build new frames. 

The clones are clones of our operator. And that is why transferrence works so well cuz were controlling ourselves essentially 

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I think there's a difference between original warframes, made from people, clone warframes, made in foundry's and Prime warframes, with added obedience features.
 

The 1st lot are certainly suffering, their minds have to be constantly suppressed to stop them rebelling, the others ... while we know that the Orkin are capable of extracting and converting minds, I doubt they'd bother for any frames they made from scratch, as their would be no benefit; Ballas was the only one who specifically wanted to torture that specific Dax.

Also, I think all frames can move on their own, it's just that modern frames never have much time when their not either dominated or in storage, so it might be a Hulk, Pre-Planet-Hulk, situation.

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6 hours ago, Mints said:

a Rhino Umbra or a Rhino prototype

yes to one or both! Umbra Rhino would be pretty sweet. a bigger Two-Handed Katana version of Skiajati would also be great. I doubt we'll get either, but it's fun to fantasize about..

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1 hour ago, PookieNumnums said:

This but not this. 

Your frame saves you in second dream and titania saves sylvana in silver grove. 

Also, its my personal headcanon that there is a clone bank hidden on our oribiters that provides bodies used in conversion when we build new frames. 

The clones are clones of our operator. And that is why transferrence works so well cuz were controlling ourselves essentially 

that would be a pretty sick plot twist XD

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12 hours ago, Toppien said:

that would be a pretty sick plot twist XD

I agree. Warframe does have a bit of underlying morbidity. Killing our parents. The umbra incident. Grineers scrap troughs. Live dissection. It would fit perfectly. 

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