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While giving feedback is fine...

This just sounds like you haven't played her effectively.
Have you tried her while using decent builds or just something you cobbled together?

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I can get behind OP's sentiment. When they showcased her abilities, I was very much on the fence whether it would turn out good or not, which wasn't helped with me disliking Fire Blast staying while Accelerant was scrapped and Inferno being just dropping meteors. BUT when we actually got her, and I started playing her again, I found that I actually enjoyed her new kit. Then I looked up a build or 2 and now I've fully adjusted to her new playstyle(s). It's not as chill (ironically) as WoF+Firequake was (despite it effectively dying with her nerf), but it feels impactful, at least.

Honestly, the worst things about her now is how clunky her abilities are, as in, sometimes they go through walls, and sometimes they don't hit enemies in the open, and Immolation's exponential energy drain coupled with Fire Blast's high-ish cost compared to how often we need to use it. The augments are helpful, especially Inferno's and Fire Blast's.

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Inferno does far more damage than world on fire. And Ember went from trash frame to farm level 30 mobs to end game frame with significant versatility. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Inferno does far more damage than world on fire. And Ember went from trash frame to farm level 30 mobs to end game frame with significant versatility. 

 

 

I think people who want the old Ember back are those who don't actually want to be engaged in the game and let the ability kill everything more than to actually shot and slash an enemy. For years DE has made the mistake of making us feel like God, being able to turn on an ability and camp without interaction with enemies and still being able to kill everything out of plain sight 50+ meters game play. I am guilty and will say I was one of them also. This is why I don't use nukes much any longer, honestly didn't feel engaged in game. In my opinion they need to make all nuke frames more like the new Ember, LOS abilities.

Edited by kwlingo
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Totally with you, sir.

It's an uninspired piece of 💩 and I stopped playing her. Thanks DE 🖕🖕 

Meteor-Ember... What a yoke. 🤣

And the animations suck too. Looks like she's taking a broom up in the ass and -phiuuu! phiuuuu!- all the S#&$ty meteorites fall from the sky.

👎👎👎 🤮

 

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15 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Inferno does far more damage than world on fire. And Ember went from trash frame to farm level 30 mobs to end game frame with significant versatility.

Even without a rework, the old Ember with the new heat proc would outperform her current self by a mile. If you think Ember is "end game viable" now, then you are one of the noobs who complained abour her for all the wrong reasons and actually turned her into a low lvl nuker.

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On 2020-01-05 at 4:20 PM, KroneVanguard said:

Totally with you, sir.

It's an uninspired piece of 💩 and I stopped playing her. Thanks DE 🖕🖕 

Meteor-Ember... What a yoke. 🤣

And the animations suck too. Looks like she's taking a broom up in the ass and -phiuuu! phiuuuu!- all the S#&$ty meteorites fall from the sky.

👎👎👎 🤮

 

You are too late to board the train of people who stopped playing her- That train left before her rework. Now that she has damage reduction and actually good abilities, only the good players will play Ember now-

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Posted (edited)

I think there's always a small minority that finds a trick to making a non-viable frame almost-viable, and they're understandably attached and lose something when a rework happens. And it's not really comparable since Nova's extremely viable despite her age, but if DE did come along and rework Nova into something with a coherent playstyle that built normal, instead of a mess of ill-fitting parts that scales by randomly selected attributes, I'd be sad to lose the fun little oddball she is and would probably find her new game design rather boring.

Edited by CopperBezel
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On 2020-01-06 at 7:40 AM, ShortCat said:

Even without a rework, the old Ember with the new heat proc would outperform her current self by a mile. If you think Ember is "end game viable" now, then you are one of the noobs who complained abour her for all the wrong reasons and actually turned her into a low lvl nuker.

It's entirely possible to post a disagreement with someone without sounding like a total skoom.

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14 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's entirely possible to post a disagreement with someone without sounding like a total skoom.

I won't deny, my response contains salt and hostility, because I am actually angry about Ember's development. Previous complaints came from a loud majority, who never bothered to explore the frame beyond simple P42W WoF builds and focused on superficial problems rooted either in general issues like scaling of Armor/enemy damage or in lack of experience connected to "Ember deals poop damage" slogans. I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why people are wrong.

Inferno is praised for its raw damage potential, while even without boosted heat procs WoF managed similar numbers with casual help from Accelerant, but with significantly less upkeep costs and busywork. This simple interaction was largely unnoticed, because people strangely ignored #2, would often build Ember with Overextended and Energy Conversion, or open fights with Fireblast, as suggested in a popular YT video.
Even now, Ember's top damage potential comes from Fireball augment, even though this playstyle was gutted with latest rework.

Previously, Ember survived on mobility, positioning and immediate CC, reflected in an active and awake playstyle. Now, people jizz with creativity and skill by activating DR in combination with Adaptation and face tank incoming damage. In a true Inaros sleepwalk manner.

What a degradation in mechanical depth as well as playstyle. 

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Surely you realize that the way to use her 4 as a damage dealer now is in conjunction with her 3's armor strip, exactly like Accelerant + WoF, yeah?

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I agree that I don't like Embers rework and I was quite disappointed upon returning to the game. I really enjoyed her World on Fire ability and during defense or survival missions my friend would bubble a point with Frost while I'd run around with World on Fire keeping the area clear. Imagine my surprise when I return and try to get back in the groove, start my ability up and I kinda flash with no effect...

I dislike the mechanics behind this new ability, the line of sight requirement, the energy cost, etc. The OP isn't alone in their feelings and you can see this opinion echoed on forums across the internet, blogs and YouTube. Sure there are people who love the rework, and that's great for them but the people who love the frame they had shouldn't be talked down to and treated like their opinion is disgraceful or something.

While I'm not going to cry doom and quit playing the game, I know at the very least I won't be playing Ember Prime anymore and now I have this lingering worry about when they might totally change another frame I like into something I won't touch.

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6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I won't deny, my response contains salt and hostility, because I am actually angry about Ember's development. Previous complaints came from a loud majority, who never bothered to explore the frame beyond simple P42W WoF builds and focused on superficial problems rooted either in general issues like scaling of Armor/enemy damage or in lack of experience connected to "Ember deals poop damage" slogans. I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why people are wrong.

There are individuals such as myself who were more or less completely aware of embers damage capabilities in the past who were not happy with how old ember was.  I won't pretend the new Ember is perfect.  But I enjoy this style of her over her past version simply on the basis that she feels more like the caster heavy damage frame that I was lead to believe she would be back when I first joined WF.

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

 

Inferno is praised for its raw damage potential, while even without boosted heat procs WoF managed similar numbers with casual help from Accelerant, but with significantly less upkeep costs and busywork. This simple interaction was largely unnoticed, because people strangely ignored #2, would often build Ember with Overextended and Energy Conversion, or open fights with Fireblast, as suggested in a popular YT video.
Even now, Ember's top damage potential comes from Fireball augment, even though this playstyle was gutted with latest rework.

As much as I am against the whole "raining fire meteors" as a thing for her I think it's a far more enjoyable ability just because of how it interacts with you and the enemies.  It feels nicer to have an on demand "nuke" that spreads itself like an actual burning fire compared to WoF.

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

 

Previously, Ember survived on mobility, positioning and immediate CC, reflected in an active and awake playstyle. Now, people jizz with creativity and skill by activating DR in combination with Adaptation and face tank incoming damage. In a true Inaros sleepwalk manner.

If movement was actually still effective as a way to midigate damage then I might feel for you on where you're coming from.  But not only was accelerant's stun duration based on the unit you hit but enemies in general have become far more accurate than in the past.  Sure, I'd absolutely love it if movement and positioning were things that mattered still.  As I prefer more active styles of play.  (this is largely why I don't mind newer frames keeping my fingers more occupied even if some if it is redundant busy work.)  However Ember's cc wasn't consistent enough for my liking compared to someone like Mag.  And when you couple that with enemies becoming more accurate over the years and it's easy to understand why Ember was given a new way to survive.

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

 

What a degradation in mechanical depth as well as playstyle. 

I would not consider the unorthodox way to reach ember's peak damage capabilities as true depth but rather just raw mechanical complexity.  It's a notion i've seen being tossed around in regards to reworks more and more lately.  And while I can agree that the shift to more "modern" versions of old frames has lost some of the old quirky aspects about kits I don't personally take it as a huge loss.  I absolutely want build depth present and to matter.  I'd like frames to have more to them that players learn as they spend time with the frame.  And in some ways old WF's had this.  But I don't believe it was done in any intentional or healthy way.

This more or less spills into the argument about old frames having defined different styles of play based on focusing one or two powers and tanking the others.  "Technically" that is depth of some sorts.  But it's not in anyway the way it should be ideally if we were really trying to have diversity when modding frames.  And this same sentiment applies to you and other's points about kit depth.

In other words I sympathize with where you guys come from.  I even some what relate just because of how long i've been playing WF.  I just don't see eye to eye.  And even if I don't agree with how DE is essentially simplifying frames (amongst many other things mind you) it makes perfect sense considering the overall direction WF has been moving and seems to continue to be moving.

I'd much rather find ways to improve upon the framework DE lays with reworks rather than lashing out at others simply because they disagree or are actually ignorant.  If anyone deserves your ire it's the devs.  But hey, I like to try and be positive even when some would say it's not appropriate.  So perhaps my call out is misplaced.

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Interesting discussion here, but I'm feeling that too many people missed the two key changes to Ember that make this edition better than anything she's had before.

The first has been raised, briefly, being the Damage Reduction. This is because enemies in Warframe don't actually scale in difficulty, they just scale in damage. Previously Ember did survive on placement and on stun CC, but this, as a player that could and did take her on long runs, was not good enough. Without taking gear to compensate, such as an Infested Healer spectre, the game became rocket tag too quickly and Ember could not bring her weapons to effect fast enough to survive once the game really got going.

Having DR or situational damage prevention, or something that takes the one thing enemies actually do to us and reduces the effectiveness of it, is something I feel is essential in the game at the current time.

The part that very few people have even noticed is that Ember has gained something far, far more important, something that allows her new 4 to actually be the nuke that it wants to be, and something that lets her scale up her damage equally with her new survivability: Armour strip.

Getting to 100% on Immolation and pressing 3 strips enemy armour completely. Combine this with the bonus that Heat gets against the Flesh of previously Armoured enemies, and her 4 hits for far more effective levels of damage. This simple function completely out-strips what World on Fire did. No questions asked. Especially as Inferno will not just damage enemies, but leave persistent effects on the enemies that survive, dealing all of that heat damage repeatedly because of the way the DoT for Heat has also been changed.

The question, though, is not whether one ability is better than another. The question is always 'is the frame better now?' and from these two objective points, the frame is better. Armour Strip and Damage Reduction functions where the frame had neither before is a objective buff to any frame, even if the fire-and-forget style of play was subjectively better for players before the change.

And let's not forget the new Augments that are... just far better than we've had before. With a choice of ally buffs, self-healing on our newly tankier frame, or marking for Energy Orbs on our newly more energy-hungry frame. Ember is in a better place, and if you don't enjoy playing her now... well, your loss is another's gain.

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On 2020-01-07 at 6:03 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You are too late to board the train of people who stopped playing her- That train left before her rework. Now that she has damage reduction and actually good abilities, only the good players will play Ember now-

To drop her after 2 days and find another warframe to bother. .... Nyx "whiii 😭" change pls. Titania "whiii 😭" change pls ... 😒.

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3 hours ago, KroneVanguard said:

To drop her after 2 days and find another warframe to bother. .... Nyx "whiii 😭" change pls. Titania "whiii 😭" change pls ... 😒.

Looks like a little projection on your part. Been farming Kuva Lich with Ember all day. 

I've been happy with the Nyx and Ember reworks- You can try to look for me asking for changes to them, but you won't find anything ever since they got armor stripping ❤️

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The first has been raised, briefly, being the Damage Reduction. This is because enemies in Warframe don't actually scale in difficulty, they just scale in damage.[...] Having DR or situational damage prevention, or something that takes the one thing enemies actually do to us and reduces the effectiveness of it, is something I feel is essential in the game at the current time.

I do not like this development, not only in Ember's case, but in general. If we look at the complete Frame roster good 2/3 of Frames have a mandatory skill that increases HP/regen, provides more Armor or some form of damage reduction, in order to artificially boost eHP. This development is a pathetic display of current design philosophy, because Frames end up with 1 of the 4 skills dedicated to band-aid scaling issues. Just stop for a moment and think about any other game that asks the player to run with 90+ DR all the time?
Instead of fixing the underlying issue, DE crams band-aids into Frame design themselves. As a result, Frames feel increasingly similar to each other and require reworks with every meta shift.

22 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Surely you realize that the way to use her 4 as a damage dealer now is in conjunction with her 3's armor strip, exactly like Accelerant + WoF, yeah?

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The part that very few people have even noticed is that Ember has gained something far, far more important, something that allows her new 4 to actually be the nuke that it wants to be, and something that lets her scale up her damage equally with her new survivability: Armour strip.

Getting to 100% on Immolation and pressing 3 strips enemy armour completely. Combine this with the bonus that Heat gets against the Flesh of previously Armoured enemies, and her 4 hits for far more effective levels of damage.

Armor strip is another band-aid though. Against non-armored enemies Fireblast is a knockback with a weak heat proc for whooping 75e. Then, logarithmic Armor scaling makes this skill worth using when Immolation has a high (best case if maxed) value; otherwise it hardly does anything for Inferno. The old Ember already had issues with Accelerant usage, as she had to debuff every new enemy, while Accelerant was cheaper and worked through walls. New Ember has to rely on Fireblast, but it costs more, cannot take full advantage of its range due to LoS and is tied to a timer. This firecaster playstyle many praise and advertise is not sustainable. Thus, the go to solution was and still is a high status weapon and selfbuffs.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This simple function completely out-strips what World on Fire did. No questions asked.

You have to compare Fireblast with Accelerant, not WoF. Furthermore, Accelerant worked on all enemies and had a unique design, not a run-off-the-mill Armor strip that can be done by a status weapon.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Especially as Inferno will not just damage enemies, but leave persistent effects on the enemies that survive, dealing all of that heat damage repeatedly because of the way the DoT for Heat has also been changed.

Inferno has 2 components: initial impact with direct damage, which will trigger a heat proc; Inferno debuff, which is duration based, spreads and scales with Immolation meter. The debuff itself just does fire damage, does not apply a heat proc, does not reduce Armor like heat proc, does not trigger Ember's passive, does not stack with itself and is not refreshed on repeated casts. In short - it is bad. All the damage is in the initial impact and its stacking heat proc. This why I said, old Ember with reworked fire damage would be stronger, because not only would you stack procs from WoF and weapons, you would also scale those procs with Accelerant even further.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The question is always 'is the frame better now?' and from these two objective points, the frame is better. Armour Strip and Damage Reduction functions where the frame had neither before is a objective buff to any frame, even if the fire-and-forget style of play was subjectively better for players before the change.

Ember got dumbed down and feels better to play for players who can only face tank and have no idea how to assemble a loadout. There are already enough Frames with training wheels in the game. Or is it because she is considered a beginner Frame, as she drops on Saturn?

 

Edited by ShortCat
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Enemy scaling exists though. = / You can say that DR and armor strip are bandaids, and in the case of armor strip I might even agree with you. (The idea that frames are inherently fragile and survive based on a variety of defensive abilities that can themselves be nullified is an interesting dynamic to me.) But when people said the old Ember wasn't playable and are now paying attention to her, that is why. These are things that exist in the game and define which frames do well. Another is the broken damage type system, where Corrosive does obscenely higher damage against most armored enemies even without considering the proc, so that there's a limit to how much work a buffed fire attack can do for you. I happen to think damage type vulnerabilities and resistances were a mistake, complexity without depth that just gives you a cheesy way to change weapon builds for bonuses against particular factions in a balance of rewarding performance for busywork, but I'm not going to pretend they're not a thing in the game with an effect that makes some things more viable than others.

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4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Armor strip is another band-aid though. Against non-armored enemies Fireblast is a knockback with a weak heat proc for whooping 75e. Then, logarithmic Armor scaling makes this skill worth using when Immolation has a high (best case if maxed) value; otherwise it hardly does anything for Inferno. The old Ember already had issues with Accelerant usage, as she had to debuff every new enemy, while Accelerant was cheaper and worked through walls. New Ember has to rely on Fireblast, but it costs more, cannot take full advantage of its range due to LoS and is tied to a timer. This firecaster playstyle many praise and advertise is not sustainable. Thus, the go to solution was and still is a high status weapon and self buffs.


You might have had a point, except that Ember is more unique now then she has been in the past.

Enemy scaling is a fixture of this game, its not going anywhere and never will. Enemy scaling is kinda what makes an RPG, an rpg. You fighter stronger and stronger enemies as you get stronger. Its kinda the point of "progression". You can't get stronger without scaling yourself. Simply one shoting non scaled enemies would be boring as people would just use the amprex and anything else to insta delete the endless fodder. 

That being said, there are some staples of what makes a frame good, and a frame needs to excel in one area for them to see widespread use. Old Ember was completely overshadowed in scaling, and was just a niche soft cc frame. Nidus is my standard to use to what makes a frame good. Self reliant kit that's unique while still being able to deal damage, or tough enough to tank unfathomable amounts of damage. 

When it comes to armor stripping you are also forgetting that there are other factions in the game other then armored units. Against all factions Post Rework Ember performs drastically better. Notably the damage of her Ult, combined with the energy cost being low for the target damage it can deal/spread. Her Ultimate is truly unique that its a nuke with an energy cost per enemy instead of something like Saryn's Miasma that is a flat energy cost no matter what. Casting her Ult is a base 2500 damage then a 350-700 dot for 15 seconds. The Damage over time on this ability alone deals almost as much damage as her old World on Fire, except you get an additional 2500 damage upfront per enemy. WoF worked like an Inferior Maim and Mend with an enemy cap. Her Ultimate is unlike everything else in the game, and having different ways of getting damage reduction, armor stripping and actual damage is a downside? 

Inferno deals much more damage then old Wof by a large margin. 

Ember's fluctuating damage reduction works different then most other damage reduction abilities, (having you to manage its upkeep costs.) keeping it unique enough from other classes. 
The energy upkeep on Ember is a little steep imo, and could be tweaked to help her energy economy but for the most part Im happy with her currently. (I do dream about how amazing it would be, if the energy drain was reversed and energy was only consumed when not as full heat. Wouldn't punish her energy as hard for that damage reduction.) Lowering her energy cost or giving her some energy regen somehow... is about the only real tweak I would give new Ember. I think she needs it, but I have been enjoying her nuking level 70s with no issue for quite a few days now. 

The only real point that you have, is fireball being kinda basic. It is pretty standard, nothing special and nothing notable. (If it was free when your immolation bar was full would be neat, but then again, I'm just trying to make it different then the generic ability it really is at the moment.) 

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6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I do not like this development, not only in Ember's case, but in general. If we look at the complete Frame roster good 2/3 of Frames have a mandatory skill that increases HP/regen, provides more Armor or some form of damage reduction, in order to artificially boost eHP. This development is a pathetic display of current design philosophy, because Frames end up with 1 of the 4 skills dedicated to band-aid scaling issues. Just stop for a moment and think about any other game that asks the player to run with 90+ DR all the time?
Instead of fixing the underlying issue, DE crams band-aids into Frame design themselves. As a result, Frames feel increasingly similar to each other and require reworks with every meta shift.

Yes, and?

Wanting a change and dealing with the actuality are two different things. Ignoring what we have now in favour if the future changes that 'should' or 'might' happen does not get anything done.

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Armor strip is another band-aid though.

Second verse, same as the first. Yes, and?

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

You have to compare Fireblast with Accelerant, not WoF.

No, no I don't. They are and always have been two separate abilities for different functions. Ember only needed Accelerant because of how comically bad her damage was without it. Now that she has a method of dealing with the other reality of the game, armour, she doesn't need Accelerant because regular weapons and her own normal damage can now apply up to vastly higher levels. Ember's problem was never Corpus, unless you whine about Nullifiers, or Infested. Ember's problem was armour, a health type that not only had resistances against her damage type, but also exponentially scaled enemy health.

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Accelerant worked on all enemies and had a unique design

Okay, this is definitely rose tinted glasses.

An AoE spam ability that had to be applied to every single enemy in turn, as and when they came into range, which only multiplied a single damage type as a fix for her damage type being considered so bad against the enemy type that scaled the most. That was not a unique design, that was a slightly more specialised Roar.

If you want to talk about DR or Mitigation casts so dismissively, why not slap in these AoE buff abilities that are only there to scale up damage into that category too? Frames can and do function completely fine without those too, but the simple logic of the game is that because enemy health doesn't ever cap out, damage needs to increase to maintain that 'time to kill' function that's important in long run game play.

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

The debuff itself just does fire damage, does not apply a heat proc, does not reduce Armor like heat proc, does not trigger Ember's passive, does not stack with itself and is not refreshed on repeated casts.

I'll copy this from the Wiki, which people test before updating:

  • Ember summons fiery meteorites to descend from above, crashing into all seen enemies within 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters. Enemies receive 1000 / 1500 / 2000 / 2500 Heat b Heat and Impact b Impact damage on hit, becoming surrounded by a ring of fire for 7 / 10 / 12 / 15 seconds, while dealt 200 - 400 / 350 - 500 / 300 - 600 / 350 - 700 Heat b Heat damage per second. Other enemies coming into range of the rings are also set ablaze and inflicted with Heat b Heat damage and proc.

Oh, look at that, a proc. Wait a minute, what's this other bullet point here:

  • Damage from multiple casts does stack.

Isn't that interesting...

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Ember got dumbed down and feels better to play for players who can only face tank and have no idea how to assemble a loadout. There are already enough Frames with training wheels in the game. Or is it because she is considered a beginner Frame, as she drops on Saturn?

Oh, and yes, let's finish this off with some kind of virtual dong measuring contest.

People built Ember just fine before, and they build her just fine now. Your elitism is unfounded and you sound childish when you use it.

The frame plays differently to before and all of your protests against it just sound like 'change is bad, I don't like it'. This is an 'OK Boomer' of Warframe moment, but I don't get to use that because in terms of Warframe time I'm actually the gen above you.

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12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes, and? 2x

So band-aids instead of actual fixes. Especially in case of DR abilities or survivability the whole RJ update shows the pinnacle of the problem.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, no I don't. They are and always have been two separate abilities for different functions.

I called it out, because you compared Fireblast with WoF previously.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ember only needed Accelerant because of how comically bad her damage was without it. Now that she has a method of dealing with the other reality of the game, armour, she doesn't need Accelerant because regular weapons and her own normal damage can now apply up to vastly higher levels.

What's the difference? Be it either Accelerant or Fireblast Ember struggles without it.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

An AoE spam ability that had to be applied to every single enemy in turn, as and when they came into range, which only multiplied a single damage type as a fix for her damage type being considered so bad against the enemy type that scaled the most. That was not a unique design, that was a slightly more specialised Roar.

Mentioned it. Same rules apply to new Fireblast but with more disadvantages.

19 hours ago, ShortCat said:

The old Ember already had issues with Accelerant usage, as she had to debuff every new enemy, while Accelerant was cheaper and worked through walls. New Ember has to rely on Fireblast, but it costs more, cannot take full advantage of its range due to LoS and is tied to a timer.

 

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'll copy this from the Wiki, which people test before updating...

Go play with Ember. Then come again and share your experience, because this underlines your lack of knowledge. The only part I am not sure about is stacking Inferno debuff duration, because there was a bug with certain abilities as Chroma's Vex or Atlas's Petrify were not working properly.

Edited by ShortCat

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