Ember rework

[Blexander]

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

So band-aids instead of actual fixes. Especially in case of DR abilities or survivability the whole RJ update shows the pinnacle of the problem.

I hope you realise that the problems which result in more bandaid abilities being added are engrained into the base mechanics of the game. It's not as simple as "why not just fix her instead of giving her DR/LoS requirement/armor strip etc.?", when the game doesn't facilitate gameplay without them.

Long story short, enemy scaling needs fixing 1st and foremost, then the resulting domino effect should in theory fix the over-reliance on "crutch" abilities.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

8 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Go play with Ember. Then come again and share your experience, because this underlines your lack of knowledge.

I like how your response to being proven wrong, is hurr durr "go play ember".

I have been playing Ember and after actually paying attention, I can confirm that is how she works, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Zalabim]

Okay, first, to settle the current dispute, I made a detailed post about how all of Ember's abilities actually work now and barring any stealth changes since then, Inferno's ring of fire damage never procs heat and does not stack. That's a fact you can go into the simulacrum and test for yourself whenever you like. Most of inferno's effectiveness comes from its up front damage with guaranteed heat proc.

Now to what has to be said, Ember is better off without accelerant. When doing the rework, there's three paths. Balance around accelerant, balance around removing accelerant, or just don't balance anything. That last one is not a real option. Keeping accelerant as is means having to use this ability that does nothing but gates 90% of your damage if you don't use it. Even if you do use it, if you use a build different than what it's balanced for, you lose/gain damage by the square of your power difference, and Ember has a passive that gives power intermittently already. The solution to that is a version where accelerant doesn't scale with power at all and still does nothing but unlock the rest of your expected damage. Finally, double dipping heat damage to heat proc damage with accelerant means we get even lower base damage values and likely none of the improvements to heat's status. How about an accelerant that's fixed at doubled heat damage and an inferno that does 700 heat damage. So much bet-arf. 

So when you complain about removing accelerant because it was soo good, you're just whining that DE didn't choose to intentionally leave the rework wildly imbalanced. Remember when Miasma was supposed to deal double damage to enemies with spores, but that didn't work, and when they fixed it DE made it deal half damage and then 4x to spored enemies. Accelerant would have been like that, except spores maintain themselves and actually do something on their own.

Also, point me to the weapon you're buffing that hits everything in a 36-45m radius. I want in on that.

[ShortCat]

Only I am to blame for this. Should have answere with pics instead of relying on people to spend 5 minutes in Simulacrum.

I did this experiment with a naked Ember, equiped only with Fireball Frenzy to capture the time frame. Inferno's base stats are 2500 damage on impact and leads to a 1250 damage heat proc; Inferno debuff lasts 15 seconds; Inferno debuff damage is 350 - 700 depending on Immolation meter.

Here, we can see an Ancient after 1 Inferno cast burning for 1250 damage, the second damage number (364) is Inferno debuff damage that ticks slightly higher than base, due to slightly raised Immolation meter. In the top right corner we can see an icon indicating Ember's passiv giving +5% PS due to 1 neaby burning enemy. Everything as expected.

Here, a second Inferno cast was initiated. Heat proc is ticking with twice the power (slightly more due to 5% more PS). Heat procs stack - nothing new. The Inferno debuff rameins ticking with 364. Conclusion - Inferno debuff damage does not stack. The timer on Inferno icon in ability bar is not reset: assumption - duration of Inferno debuff could not stack or refresh on repeated casts. Furthermore, Inferno debuff damage is not increasing with rising Immolation meter.

 

Heat proc run out, there is no status icon over Ancient's bar. Inferno debuff is still ongiong(skill effects are visible) and damaging Ancient for 364. The Icon in the top right corner indicating Ember's passive is gone. Conclusions - Inferno debuff does not play into Ember's passive. Inferno debuff damage is not retroactively affected by Immolation meter.

After 15 seconds Inferno debuff runs out. Conclusion - Inferno debuff cannot be stacked or refreshed.

 

Summary: Inferno debuff just does fire damage; does not apply a heat proc even if it spreads; does not reduce Armor, because it is not a heat proc; does not trigger Ember's passive, because it is not a heat proc; does not stack with itself either in damage or in duration and is not refreshed on repeated casts. Damage buff from Immaltaion only considered on the initial cast.

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I like how your response to being proven wrong, is hurr durr "go play ember".

I have been playing Ember and after actually paying attention, I can confirm that is how she works, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

You were saying...

 

7 hours ago, Blexander said:

I hope you realise that the problems which result in more bandaid abilities being added are engrained into the base mechanics of the game. It's not as simple as "why not just fix her instead of giving her DR/LoS requirement/armor strip etc.?", when the game doesn't facilitate gameplay without them.

Long story short, enemy scaling needs fixing 1st and foremost, then the resulting domino effect should in theory fix the over-reliance on "crutch" abilities.

I am confused why you are quoting me on this and explaining that the game needs scaling fixes to not rely on "crutch" abilities. This is my stance and I have stated this in my second post in this thread. This is precisely the reason I despise this rework.

Edited January 10, 2020 by ShortCat

[Blexander]

43 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I am confused why you are quoting me on this and explaining that the game needs scaling fixes to not rely on "crutch" abilities. This is my stance and I have stated this in my second post in this thread. This is precisely the reason I despise this rework

Then you should be aware that it's a difficult process. It takes time to figure out how to fix scaling and damage. It's not easy since DE's work schedule and plans are esoteric at best, and nonexistent at worst.

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, ShortCat said:

So band-aids instead of actual fixes.

No, silly, as I said; work with what you have because something better won't be coming soon. They aren't going to fix the entirety of the scaling system of damage and damage reduction just for Ember, so there is absolutely no harm in making Ember work with the current system until they actually do fix it.

12 hours ago, ShortCat said:

because you compared Fireblast with WoF previously

No, I pointed out that the new Fireblast, combined with Immolation, means that current Ember is better than previous Ember. World on Fire is the thing that people keep getting at, and I went to the specifics of the other two abilities because the damage on her 4 isn't what's important here. It's how even if the damage were to be exactly the same, both in burst and in over-time, the current fact that she can strip armour and DR makes her better, it doesn't even matter about the change to heat procs.

12 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Mentioned it. Same rules apply to new Fireblast but with more disadvantages.

Yeah, but the point of mentioning it was that it's all the same thing. (Also, kind of yes, kind of no. It's not a spam ability because spamming reduces effectiveness, you have to consciously combo this cast otherwise it doesn't work, making for active gameplay whether you want that or not, and whether it's actually the kind of active that you need or not.)

When the point of my comment was that you have to work with what you have, because the fixes that are actually needed are so far distant as to be non-existent, you can't ignore it by trying to say that my own logic also applies to abilities she has now. Of course it applies, I know it applies. Until we get the fix for armour and damage scaling, it literally all applies.

Simply addressing reality will get you further than bemoaning the absence of some mythical ideal when it comes to playing a game. Not because the mythical ideal isn't something to strive for, but because while you're striving for it, practicality has to take precedence.

Accelerant was not unique, neither is Fire Blast, and my entire point is that the practical effects being different is what distinguishes them. Ramping up damage with a simple buff to your damage type does not address the problem of armour, armour stripping addresses the problem of armour. The fix for armour? Not coming soon. So the ability that strips armour is better than the ability that simply increases damage.

12 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Go play with Ember.

Kinky... but again again with the elitism. I have, I do.

That's not the discussion here.

The discussion is that people don't seem to think Ember is better now, when she objectively is. Old World on Fire may or may not have out-done current Inferno for damage, so? Old Accelerant may have outdone the buff, in terms of numbers, that Immolation now gives to damage, so? Old Fire Blast... certainly is not as good as new Fire Blast, not by a country mile, and even Fireball has been buffed a little.

What matters is that the mechanical functions of her reworked abilities are de-facto better at dealing with the game as it exists now.

She may have to be changed further down the line if DE reworks the damage system or the armour scaling system, and that's absolutely fine when that happens too.

From Ember before to Ember now, she's better. She plays differently because of the necessary changes to add the functions she was missing in a balanced way. This may cause players to not like to play her on a preference basis.

But preferring to play Ember before or preferring to play Ember now are subjective.

The objective truth, based on what the game is and does now, and what Ember is and does now to address that, is that she works better now than she did before.

[Djego27]

On 2020-01-05 at 10:57 PM, (PS4)thegarada said:

Inferno does far more damage than world on fire. And Ember went from trash frame to farm level 30 mobs to end game frame with significant versatility. 

 

 

Um, WoF was just a very insignificant amount of the damage you could do with Ember, in the last 5 years everytime somebody complained about low damage on Ember, this complaints always came from not understanding what accelerant does on a weapon modded around that. A frame that did need zero anti armor abilities to melt L155 corrupted heavy gunners in about 1-2 second swith a corrosive/fire status weapon from 2014 has no scaling issues.

As for versatility, Ember is now worse then before at high levels by the lack of damage and at defending stuff by the lack of CC. DE removed what made Ember versatile, this was AOE CC, what made the frame shine in any kind of Mission, especially solo. The current Ember is just the lame old, here is your button for god mode(what is actually fairly useless compared to the CC you had before at high levels), here the one for damage(what also does insignificant damage compared to what Ember dish out before) and DE made Ember like that(plus most of the frames in the last 3 years) because aperently the vast majority of the community can not figgure out or utilize anything more complex then this.

Inferno does fairly poor at high levels(same as WoF did outside of CC), because even if you disable heat eximus, disuptor auras, healer auras with a status weapon(what 99% of the people playing the frame never use) you are still stuck with a few thousend damage per tick from Inferno, instead of having the CC of the old WoF with tthe massive weapon damage that accelerant did provide.

 

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

12 hours ago, Djego27 said:

A frame that did need zero anti armor abilities to melt L155 corrupted heavy gunners in about 1-2 second swith a corrosive/fire status weapon from 2014 has no scaling issues.

Correction. Any frame with a status based corrosive build weapon such as the tigris prime had no scaling issues.

Buffing fire element on a weapon per enemy group was notably worse in every regard then buffing a weapon's total based damage over a period time.

You had even less scaling issues using say, Banshee, Chroma, Mirage, or Rhino who buffed all damage aspects on a set duration rather then a single group of enemies.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

18 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Only I am to blame for this. Should have answere with pics instead of relying on people to spend 5 minutes in Simulacrum.

You were saying...

I am confused why you are quoting me on this and explaining that the game needs scaling fixes to not rely on "crutch" abilities. This is my stance and I have stated this in my second post in this thread. This is precisely the reason I despise this rework.

I was saying that you were completely wrong. But since you called me out instead of asking how it stacks, I'll tell you.

Inferno's debuff can only apply to one enemy at a time. This is true. Yet when you have two enemies together, the aura stacks on both enemies.

Here I have a 200% power strength Ember. Single Cast of Inferno.


Shame you didn't test any other possibilities for the word "stacking."

As you can see, there are two instances of 700 damage ticking away, plus the fire proc. I can stack the heat proc multiple times on the same enemy, and the aura stacks on all enemies around it.


Here I did a single cast of Inferno again. And you can see the aura's overlapping each other, stacking and doing multiple 700s per enemy in range.

"As you were saying?"
 

[Djego27]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Correction. Any frame with a status based corrosive build weapon such as the tigris prime had no scaling issues.
 

The Tigris prime is not a good corrosive/fire weapon for armor strip, given the low fire rate. It is mostly utilized with viral/slash. Weapons like the Mara detron, Boar prime, Staticor or Amprax etc are armor strip weapons, they remove the armor and then kill the raw unarmred targets with her damage, what is hardly used because they do lower damage and people do normally not play high levels. On Ember in comparision this however was not the case, given that accelerant added the equivalent of 12-15 90% fire damage mods to this weapons, what actually made them hit incredible hard.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Buffing fire element on a weapon per enemy group was notably worse in every regard then buffing a weapon's total based damage over a period time.
 

You mean like on Chroma?

It is not, it was actually ballanced, even superior for some elements you can just throw in on Ember for procs(like viral and radiation vs infested), what would be a massive damage loss on stuff like Chroma, what made Ember way more flexible and interesting in the status weapon department. Ember had to recast accelerant for CC to stay allive at high levels a lot anyway, so there never was a issue with having targets not under the effect of accelerant.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You had even less scaling issues using say, Banshee, Chroma, Mirage, or Rhino who buffed all damage aspects on a set duration rather then a single group of enemies.

Chroma did the same damage as Ember more or less, Banshee was designed as team buffer(made OP by the agument and stacking of sonar spots) and is dreadful to play solo at very high levels, because your main CC only works with low range, while your main damage source needs a high range, Mirage is just stupid OP and Rino adds 70-100% extra damage in practical builds what is fine(given that he also has a ton of CC, mobility and surviability) but a lot less then the old Ember could do.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Djego27

[Djego27]

The current Ember is just poor damage from inferno(that would be like nothing if I would not use a radiation status weapon to disable healer and disruptor auras what 99% of the Ember players do not even do) and what little Fireball frenzy can add, less survivable at high levels(I rather press 2 then to get shot by 20 units in the face for 3 seconds stright with a 60-80% damage resistance in practical applaications), can't keep her pet alive(another damage loss) by the lack of CC and is objectively incredible boring to play now(quite similar to most modern frame designs):

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

5 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The Tigris prime is not a good corrosive/fire weapon for armor strip, given the low fire rate. It is mostly utilized with viral/slash. Weapons like the Mara detron, Boar prime, Staticor or Amprax etc are armor strip weapons, they remove the armor and then kill the raw unarmred targets with her damage, what is hardly used because they do lower damage and people do normally not play high levels. On Ember in comparision this however was not the case, given that accelerant added the equivalent of 12-15 90% fire damage mods to this weapons, what actually made them hit incredible hard.

You mean like on Chroma?

It is not, it was actually ballanced, even superior for some elements you can just throw in on Ember for procs(like viral and radiation vs infested), what would be a massive damage loss on stuff like Chroma, what made Ember way more flexible and interesting in the status weapon department. Ember had to recast accelerant for CC to stay allive at high levels a lot anyway, so there never was a issue with having targets not under the effect of accelerant.

Chroma did the same damage as Ember more or less, Banshee was designed as team buffer(made OP by the agument and stacking of sonar spots) and is dreadful to play solo at very high levels, because your main CC only works with low range, while your main damage source needs a high range, Mirage is just stupid OP and Rino adds 70-100% extra damage in practical builds what is fine(given that he also has a ton of CC, mobility and surviability) but a lot less then the old Ember could do.

The Tigris actually can go either corrosive blast, to CC enemies, armor strip and slash proc or viral and radiation. Either way single volley can kill a level 140 corrupted heavy gunner (or a line of them if you have punch through if you let the bleed tic.

Secondly- It's cute that you think your screenshot means anything without listing the frames stats. I have no idea what either frames stats are, nor do I have an idea about the weapon.  The problem is that ember being so accelerant reliant that as I said, and you confirmed you need accelerant for effective damage. Did you build the rakta cernos for Chroma to take advantage of, or did you build the weapon just for her, and not compare a version just for Chroma?

That means that unlike Chroma using hit abilites once for the next minute, it takes multiple casts of accelerant for the same number of enemies.

Secondly- You can cherry pick warframes all you like, but old Ember can't hold a candle to This kind of damage.
 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

5 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The current Ember is just poor damage from inferno(that would be like nothing if I would not use a radiation status weapon

Kinda like old ember is just poor damage that would be like nothing if not use a heat weapon and accelerant every 5 seconds. xD

[Djego27]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The Tigris actually can go either corrosive blast, to CC enemies, armor strip and slash proc or viral and radiation. Either way single volley can kill a level 140 corrupted heavy gunner (or a line of them if you have punch through if you let the bleed tic.
 

The corrosive/blast build is just bad(same as it is on other status shotguns since you do crap damage with it, because the knock down of blast) vs groups. The thing you will shoot 90% of the time. Also the viral/radiation with sweeping seration is more effective till L150 ish compared to that, given that it does not relay on armor strip but armor bypass with the bleed procs. Non of that builds will kill a L140 level gunner in 2 rounds, they all need 4 with no CP(what I always test since I do not use CP when I solo most of the time). This status shotgun however used to kill in 4 hits(what is only 20% of your magazine with 0.1s per bullet reload compared to 0.5s on the Tigris prime, plus much faster firerate to boot), against L155, no CP and it did effortlessly continue to do so if you raise the level on the old Ember:

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Secondly- It's cute that you think your screenshot means anything without listing the frames stats. I have no idea what either frames stats are, nor do I have an idea about the weapon.  The problem is that ember being so accelerant reliant that as I said, and you confirmed you need accelerant for effective damage. Did you build the rakta cernos for Chroma to take advantage of, or did you build the weapon just for her, and not compare a version just for Chroma?

Well it is a just stright comparision I did for one of the countless "Ember damage sucks!!!" threads her on the forums, with both frames in practical high level builds and weapons I would personaly use on them for that stuff. Both pics are without Argon scope up, given they are one shots.

Here is the Ember, obviously wiht flash accelerant instead of Fireblall Frenzy before the change:

My Chroma for a bit longer runs, blind rage is obviously not maxed given we talk realistic mod setups that work at high levels and not ones that can not press 3 after a tick of a large energy restore:

The Cernos is like I use it(on Ember obviously with the 60% and 90% heat mod instead of the 90% Toxic and Electric like on Chroma):

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

That means that unlike Chroma using hit abilites once for the next minute, it takes multiple casts of accelerant for the same number of enemies.

Secondly- You can cherry pick warframes all you like, but old Ember can't hold a candle to This kind of damage.
 

Again you did need to use the ability a lot anyway to stay alive. Also I do not cherry pick. Ask around the forums what people could do with Ember and then ask me. I will tell you they had with the exception of like 1 person I seen per hole year in a public game with the frame no idea what they did. They did not utilize accelerant, where litterally 90% of Embers damage came from to do damage and they also did not use it to stay alive. All this people did press 4 and did think they played her damage frame good, while preaching here at the forums the endless story of Ember has crap damage and survivablity.

Also different to all the people that praise the new Ember, I actually did go solo with the frame into endless missions, like I did for years and I am fairly disapointed with the hole thing.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Kinda like old ember is just poor damage that would be like nothing if not use a heat weapon and accelerant every 5 seconds. xD

However on the old Ember 90% of your damage came from accelerant, while there is nothing there on the new Ember outside of a fairly poor impression of a boring to play damage frame. Btw you never used heat base damage weapons on Ember at high levels, given they did scale very poorly, what you used where mostly crit weapon that allow a very high amount of heat stacking(like bows or the vhek) or status weapons, preferable ones that came with radiation base damage, a element you need to penetrate aura protection and that you could not use outside of that weapons given it would remove the raw heat damage from them.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Djego27

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

10 hours ago, Djego27 said:

The corrosive/blast build is just bad(same as it is on other status shotguns since you do crap damage with it, because the knock down of blast) vs groups. The thing you will shoot 90% of the time. Also the viral/radiation with sweeping seration is more effective till L150 ish compared to that, given that it does not relay on armor strip but armor bypass with the bleed procs. Non of that builds will kill a L140 level gunner in 2 rounds, they all need 4 with no CP

 

That's nice that you think that, but Corrosive blast Tigris just two shot everything in a line of 140 gunners, sooooo- Kinda splitting hairs when you say it can't when it clearly can. 

You have severely faulty opinions on weapons at this point, which isn't surprising when you complain about a rework that makes a frame less dependent on fire based weapons for all of her damage, and ignore how vastly superior her entire kit is currently-

[ShortCat]

19 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yet when you have two enemies together, the aura stacks on both enemies.

Nobody questioned this in the first place, You left a conceited comment and made a fool of yourself, and now you moved the goal posts to save your face and made an even bigger fool of yourself.

 

On 2020-01-10 at 9:03 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Simply addressing reality will get you further than bemoaning the absence of some mythical ideal when it comes to playing a game. Not because the mythical ideal isn't something to strive for, but because while you're striving for it, practicality has to take precedence.

Every band-aid just delays the inevitable. Problems are known for a long time and sleeping on real solutions will only increase the workload down the road. The workaround seems easy, however DE has to spice it up with additional features to not make copy-paste designs blatantly obvious. The result is increasing complexity or feature creep, which make the whole development process even more difficult.
Back to Ember. I see no reason to play her, as she offers nothing besides her visuals to stand out among 40+ Frames.

[Keiyadan]

Well i have a few questions about ember:

1) Her ulti why it is that the ulit is limited by 3 factors: first range, Second Line of sight, third enemy count. while most of the other aoe frames only maximal limited by two saryn equinox dont care about seeing the enemy or how many there are. Mesa needs after her rework to see the enemys what makes sence to me.

2) Her Third abillity armore strip ability why do we need that exactly there are alot of ways how we can deal with armore i would more likely choose the armore reduce that ist perma aktive so like corrosiv projecktion and even Coaction Drift so i dont have to wait for an abillity to build up just to strip the enemys near me from armore

3) Her Second abillity Why do i see so many Ember builds with Adaptation if her 2 is so good does one be not enoght or is it because it has to get charged too so your gettin not alot out of it. with my pre rework ember the enemys could not even shoot me because they where burning what sttagering them.

what i could see too was how many energie it cost to keep everything up so some people would say well then use Arcane Energize to get the energie back.

So what im seeing here is a frame you can only realy enjoy while have alot of lategame stuff that most people will not have if they first encounter ember and then there are still better options to do her tasks with way less to care about So for what missions do you use ember then?

I would be happy to hear some of you answer my questions and why you choose your playstile

Greetings Keiyadan
 

[Blexander]

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

1) Her ulti why it is that the ulit is limited by 3 factors: first range, Second Line of sight, third enemy count. while most of the other aoe frames only maximal limited by two saryn equinox dont care about seeing the enemy or how many there are. Mesa needs after her rework to see the enemys what makes sence to me

I honestly couldn't tell you why she has a LoS restriction on Inferno. The only thing I can think of as a potential reason is "balancing", but, as you mentioned, Saryn and Equinox don't have said restriction, so...

To be prefectly honest, half of the time, it's almost as if she doesn't have LoS because she can sometimes hit enemies behind walls and under floors. However, every other time she struggles to hit enemies directly in front her. I think it has something to do with how room instances work. Same issue applies to Fire Blast, only it works less frequently.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

2) Her Third abillity armore strip ability why do we need that exactly there are alot of ways how we can deal with armore i would more likely choose the armore reduce that ist perma aktive so like corrosiv projecktion and even Coaction Drift so i dont have to wait for an abillity to build up just to strip the enemys near me from armore

Because you won't need to have a full team using CP if you bring an Ember. Plus, no gun in the game strip armor faster than an Ember.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

3) Her Second abillity Why do i see so many Ember builds with Adaptation if her 2 is so good does one be not enoght or is it because it has to get charged too so your gettin not alot out of it. with my pre rework ember the enemys could not even shoot me because they where burning what sttagering them.

Why do people take Adaptation on Inaros if he has the largest HP pool in the game and has self-sustain?

Because enemies and their damage scale very fast at high levels, and because Ember doesn't have the best DR ability due to having to micromanage it so you don't run out of energy, or lower it by 30% in a bad spot.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

what i could see too was how many energie it cost to keep everything up so some people would say well then use Arcane Energize to get the energie back.

The only energy issues she has is with Immolation's exponential energy drain, which is dumb and I hate it, and Fire Blast which costs too much for how often it's needed/used. The rest of her kit is fine. Inferno costs nearly nothing to use, and literally nothing if no enemies are nearby, but it still speeds up Immolation's gauge increase.

Arcane energize isn't really a requirement on her, you can do just fine with Inferno's augment.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Blexander

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Every band-aid just delays the inevitable. Problems are known for a long time and sleeping on real solutions will only increase the workload down the road.

We know what the real solutions are, but we are in no way in control of the solving of them.

Nothing we know of says that just updating a frame to work with the now delays or in any way influences the future. Hell, here's a concept; by updating the frame to not use multiplicative buff abilities, and instead have a direct percentage-based mechanical effect on enemies every time, maybe all of these changes are directly priming the frame itself for that later fix. Which is a logical way to prepare for that kind of fix, because having multiplicative functions still in the game once they try to change everything to additive or percentage based would screw with any calculations.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

18 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Nobody questioned this in the first place, You left a conceited comment and made a fool of yourself, and now you moved the goal posts to save your face and made an even bigger fool of yourself.

Uh, No. That was you dude. I said "I confirm this works this way." And while the phrasing of the ability make have confused you? The instant damage stacks, the heat proc stacks, and the aura stacks. 

You simply made it toxic with your elitist attitude and I corrected you, humbled you and you still toxic about it. 

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

We know what the real solutions are, but we are in no way in control of the solving of them.

Nothing we know of says that just updating a frame to work with the now delays or in any way influences the future. Hell, here's a concept; by updating the frame to not use multiplicative buff abilities, and instead have a direct percentage-based mechanical effect on enemies every time, maybe all of these changes are directly priming the frame itself for that later fix. Which is a logical way to prepare for that kind of fix, because having multiplicative functions still in the game once they try to change everything to additive or percentage based would screw with any calculations.

Skills that use direct percentages are extremely problematic though if they are damage based. 

If an ability ever does X amount of enemies total health, people will just insta kill it with viral procs then using the ability. So those kind of abilities are either brokenly op, or useless. 

[kwlingo]

On 2020-01-08 at 10:35 AM, (XB1)JTShadow said:

I agree that I don't like Embers rework and I was quite disappointed upon returning to the game. I really enjoyed her World on Fire ability and during defense or survival missions my friend would bubble a point with Frost while I'd run around with World on Fire keeping the area clear. Imagine my surprise when I return and try to get back in the groove, start my ability up and I kinda flash with no effect...

 

Your game play style stated was the exact reason why DE changed it. When you don't have to be engaged in the game and just sit to collect loot, your defeating the purpose of playing a video game. I remember as a kid there were game where you could just tape down a button and walk away for a few hours and come back to check on the progress. Trust me, the old World on Fire was this same game tactic, I did it also. With arcane energizer you could walk away for years on end and after come back to collect the billions of loot you got. Now you see what the old problem was? If you call this playing a game then you need to look for games that cater to taping a key down and getting rewards aka macros.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Skills that use direct percentages are extremely problematic though if they are damage based.

Key phrase there ^^ 'If they are damage based'.

If they are buff based? If they are debuff based? If they are support based? Now those... those work. A percentage based Armour strip, for example, works fantastically on both Gauss and Ember. A percentage based Heal or Damage Reduction works. And even damage can work when it's a buff to damage, rather than damage itself. For example, Ember having up to 100% extra damage based on her Immolation charge. Those are all the good kind of percentage.

There are, in fact, so many ways to work additive percentage into Warframe in place of multiplicative that I'm genuinely shocked that DE went with mods and abilities being calculated this way for so long.

[wolfamongstars]

She is more fun and playable than before imo because her abilities synergies with each other. Before rework ember was a bad frame with no reason to play.

Edited January 14, 2020 by wolfamongstars

[(PSN)ninjawolf2118]

Im not going to lie I have an attachment to the old style of ember I never thought she was broken. And I do tons of research on the best builds for every frame. I have played war frame for years when I started ember prime just got released for the first time. Also there was the void runs that you had to do to get primes.