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Nasrol

Crew ship health bubbles (veil) blocking artillery shots

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Posted (edited)

For those of you who don’t know this yet, in the veil the crew ships deploy health bubbles that expand over time which will rapidly heal any ally ship in them. I believe I am correct on the below points, but please correct me if I am wrong:

  1. The crew ship health bubbles are currently only visible to the host player.
  2. Only the host can continually shoot the health bubbles to shrink them until they disappear. The other players in the mission as far as I can determine, do not have shots blocked by health bubbles, and they do not reduce the side of them (only the host can do that currently). 
  3. Its is the frequency of the shots that matters, not the damage they do that affects the shrink rate. A slow firing heavily hitting weapon is nearly useless for this task, compared to a fast firing low damage weapon.
  4. When shot by the host, the health bubble absorbs all the damage. There is no punch through where the damage then continues onto the ship inside it.

Point 4 is the important one and something I would dearly like to see changed. When the host uses rail jack guns or the main artillery cannon (dome charges), if your shot originates outside of the health bubble that the target is in, it is protected from all damage by the health bubble. The bubble then reduces in size slightly for a brief period of time before expanded back to its original size. It's a minor annoyance when using normal rail jack weapons with a fighter that weaves in and out the bubbles (though interestingly they keep the health regain when outside the bubble... bug?), but its a real pain in the rear end when this blocks all damage from your artillery shot. I have more artillery shots ruined by a crew ship suddenly veering into a health bubble than any other reason (i.e., hitting an engine by mistake). 


I think there is a lot of scope for such shielding mechanisms like this to add to the challenge in rail jack missions (e.g., limited duration directional shielding) but it shouldn’t be part of the health regain bubble.

Edited by Nasrol

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Posted (edited)

pretty much yes. They work like nullifier bubbles IN SPACE.

It's quite annoying when soloing because they ALWAYS throw that thing out right as you charge the cannon.

 

One important thing i noticed is that they don't seem to be able to shoot into the bubbles if you park the railjack in them. Might be more of a line of sight thing but the protection works both ways, so sit in the bubble and shoot out of it.

Edited by Furybone

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12 minutes ago, Nasrol said:

(though interestingly they keep the health regain when outside the bubble... bug?)

Hard to say if its a bug, but I found that the health bubbles will generally affect ships for about 90 seconds.  Even if the bubble and the crewship that created it has been destroyed.

What I personally find to be a bigger bug is that you can kill everyone onboard the crewship, leave the ship, and if you're host watch the exploding ship send out 1 or 2 more healing bubbles in its last moments somehow.

14 minutes ago, Nasrol said:
  • The crew ship health bubbles are currently only visible to the host player.
  • Only the host can continually shoot the health bubbles to shrink them until they disappear. The other players in the mission as far as I can determine, do not have shots blocked by health bubbles, and they do not reduce the side of them (only the host can do that currently). 
  • Its is the frequency of the shots that matters, not the damage they do that affects the shrink rate. A slow firing heavily hitting weapon is nearly useless for this task, compared to a fast firing low damage weapon.
  • When shot by the host, the health bubble absorbs all the damage. There is no punch through where the damage then continues onto the ship inside it.

Hopefully most of these items gets changed/fixed.
Its really annoying that only fast firing weapons can do anything to the bubbles because I prefer the cryophan as a pilot weapon for quickly dealing with close targets while I have a good carcinox on the side guns, and I have to constantly swap places with a turret player in order to deal with a bubble so that they can go back to killing the enemy fliers.

Another thing I would like to see change is the healing on the Outriders, or at least some other way of dealing with them.
It is entirely possible for the outrider to survive all of the explosive points on it being blown up if its healing from a crewship...and then you are left with a near immortal ship flying around that you just can't do anything about.

18 minutes ago, Nasrol said:

I think there is a lot of scope for such shielding mechanisms like this to add to the challenge in rail jack missions (e.g., limited duration directional shielding) but it shouldn’t be part of the health regain bubble.

I fully agree with this.
Having a limited duration shield that protects enemies and that you can eventually destroy would be neat.
Having it rolled into a health bubble?  Not so neat.  Honestly the health bubbles shouldn't be blocking any shots and they should both shrink the bubble and hurt the ships inside...even if the damage from the attacks is completely negated by the healing.

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They can still fire the bubble when the ship is disabled, exploding and even when all crew inside are dead.

Another thing, the bubble can knock resources, avionics and the BP from Outriders away at such speed that even Blinking/Hyperion Thrusters can't keep up.

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Yes the healing bubbles are a major annoyance, 

The fact that the enemies can keep healing outside the bubble, 

Artillery and munitions (even void holes) just bounce off it. 

And you must have a rapid fire weapon to destroy them while said weapon becomes ineffective against fliers affected by he makes them a mechanic that does add significant difficulty, 

I just equip the cryophon and hope to Crit or use my munitions to destroy anything that is green. 

Shooting a bubble that has not yet reached its destination seems to insta kill it. 

Needs just a little tweak, a mean to skillfully destroy it just like the regular nullifiers bubble drones. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Another thing I would like to see change is the healing on the Outriders, or at least some other way of dealing with them.
It is entirely possible for the outrider to survive all of the explosive points on it being blown up if its healing from a crewship...and then you are left with a near immortal ship flying around that you just can't do anything about.

I always tell my gunners to use ordnance on outriders (mine being the seeker) as it blows up all mines instantly which will always kill an outrider (unless someone has shot them.) I used to use the galvarc for some multi hit potential, but the buggy bubbles and outriders I had to deal with in archwing made me switch to seeker.

DE better fix these bubbles in the first update of 2020 or I will not be happy. And Forward artillery being blocked by engines.

Edited by More-L
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another problem: health bubble shots are also able to kick your avianics drop into oblivion, true also for the small white shoots fired from Taktis 

 

seen it a few times already, when the avionic drop is hit by one of the things, in can accelerate to a level bejond Gauss with and active volt speedboost.

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Oh dear christ, they put nullicancer in space? I'm just glad that I've never once hosted in a veil mission and as such have never had to deal with one.

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One of many bugs that are going to start getting fixed this week since DE is back from vacation.

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4 hours ago, Nasrol said:

Its is the frequency of the shots that matters, not the damage they do that affects the shrink rate. A slow firing heavily hitting weapon is nearly useless for this task, compared to a fast firing low damage weapon.

host should pilot for better performance any way and then equip the carcinox or photor as the pilot's gun then that is the pilot's priority, that and I have not found the forward artillery to be very use full for killing grew ships the arch wing cannon is faster and safer for the ship.  but good to know none the less

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11 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

host should pilot for better performance any way and then equip the carcinox or photor as the pilot's gun then that is the pilot's priority, that and I have not found the forward artillery to be very use full for killing grew ships the arch wing cannon is faster and safer for the ship.  but good to know none the less

But the rapid fire weapons can't destroy the fliers that are affected,

Its kinda a poor situation where you can either destroy the field with rapid fire or you can destroy the fliers with cryophon Crit shots , not both. 

Even destroying the bubble does not remove the healing from the fliers for some time, 

So a central cryophon that will just kill the fliers and rapid fire turrets are a better option, but then the clients can't see the fields. 

It's a #*!%ing lose lose situation but the second one works better for me. 

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they should never have really added health bubbles (like WTF, healing spaceships make no sense), but if they are sufficiently nerfed then it won't be so bad.

- obviously fix the bugs so everyone can see the bubbles.

- reduce the size of them. haven't seen one but I'm told they get pretty massive.

- reduce the health regen they give. it's so insane that unless you can one-hit the craft (forward artillery only in most cases), you simply cannot kill those being healed. the regen rate should be halved at least, so that our regular weapons have a fighting chance to kill the craft.

19 hours ago, More-L said:

And Forward artillery being blocked by engines.

THANKYOU! this also makes no sense! an engine hit should result in an Explosion, and most likely a one hit kill, right now the pilot HAS to manoeuvre the ship to face the front or side of the galleon, and if the engine is just slightly in the way, you waste your shot. it's really dumb.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

they should never have really added health bubbles (like WTF, healing spaceships make no sense), but if they are sufficiently nerfed then it won't be so bad.

- obviously fix the bugs so everyone can see the bubbles.

- reduce the size of them. haven't seen one but I'm told they get pretty massive.

- reduce the health regen they give. it's so insane that unless you can one-hit the craft (forward artillery only in most cases), you simply cannot kill those being healed. the regen rate should be halved at least, so that our regular weapons have a fighting chance to kill the craft.

THANKYOU! this also makes no sense! an engine hit should result in an Explosion, and most likely a one hit kill, right now the pilot HAS to manoeuvre the ship to face the front or side of the galleon, and if the engine is just slightly in the way, you waste your shot. it's really dumb.

Yeah figured that out  after wasting 3 shots into the rear end of a Crewship and wondered why it wasn't blowing up till it recovered an engine on the third shot and it blew up the engine and had a "OOoooohhhh..........#*!%." moment and re-positioned the Railjack to the side

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But the rapid fire weapons can't destroy the fliers that are affected,

 

um no the photor is as good as if not better than the cryophan because it can do both it has laser precision (the photor is a continuous beam laser after all with some punch through to boot) and over 1km range unlike the short range cryophan that or use the carcinax as the other meta gun no it is not one shoting them but even the MK III Sigam photors are more than capable of killing any fighters that they see it just requires tracking they also deal heat procs reducing their armor effectiveness while the carcinax can strip armor and make other ship weapons more useful.  

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Even destroying the bubble does not remove the healing from the fliers for some time, 

I have had this happen before use the MK III tyko seaker to one shot them

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So a central cryophon that will just kill the fliers and rapid fire turrets are a better option, but then the clients can't see the fields.

no you want you pression hit scan weapon on the gunner where his movement jukes are not a severe the cryo phan/appok/carcinax belong on the sides where there AOE and spread compensate for the jerky movement of a pilot (they need to add little more inerta to the ship or jerk (rate of acceleration) compensation to the side guns some times)

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's a #*!%ing lose lose situation but the second one works better for me. 

honestly I hate the cryohan for the same reason I like the Photors and Carcinax, range. I want to start shooting a few km out and the Photors allow me to do that and kill targets that the cryophan could never hit. I might build a vidar or lavan carcinax for the helm for better cannon use but that is low on my priorities list atm I need to farm prime gear for me and for plat

Edited by spirit_of_76
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On 2020-01-07 at 7:57 AM, More-L said:

I always tell my gunners to use ordnance on outriders (mine being the seeker) as it blows up all mines instantly which will always kill an outrider (unless someone has shot them.) I used to use the galvarc for some multi hit potential, but the buggy bubbles and outriders I had to deal with in archwing made me switch to seeker.

honestly even with guns that are good at hitting the out rider weak points the seeker missile is still the best way to kill them if you hit the fuselage (not the engine necells) you will one shot them.  

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On 2020-01-07 at 8:08 AM, Nasrol said:

For those of you who don’t know this yet, in the veil the crew ships deploy health bubbles that expand over time which will rapidly heal any ally ship in them. I believe I am correct on the below points, but please correct me if I am wrong:

  1. The crew ship health bubbles are currently only visible to the host player.
  2. Only the host can continually shoot the health bubbles to shrink them until they disappear. The other players in the mission as far as I can determine, do not have shots blocked by health bubbles, and they do not reduce the side of them (only the host can do that currently).

I can speak to the first two points that you've made here! We have a fix coming soon to PC that will remedy the issue of the Crewship healing bubble not being seen or affected by Clients. Once that fix goes live and everyone else in your squad can also see/interact with the health bubbles it'll give better insight into the rest of the feedback. Thanks! 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Once that fix goes live and everyone else in your squad can also see/interact with the health bubbles it'll give better insight into the rest of the feedback. Thanks! 

Not just invisible Crewship bubbles, but how absurd the healing the bubble provides. Every weapon but the Cryophons and some Ordance weapons are unable to remotely damage them due to their healing speed. The prolonged healing also makes Outriders nearly unkillable unless you pound it repeatedly with your Archguns for the Tear proc to stack up.

Is it unintended that the healing lasts not only that long, but also to nullify most of the Railjack's arsenal?

Edited by Duality52
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2 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Not just invisible Crewship bubbles, but how absurd the healing the bubble provides. Every weapon but the Cryophons and some Ordance weapons are unable to remotely damage them due to their healing speed. The prolonged healing also makes Outriders nearly unkillable unless you pound it repeatedly with your Archguns for the Tear proc to stack up.

Is it unintended that the healing lasts not only that long, but also to nullify most of the Railjack's arsenal?

Given the bubbles can be destroyed, probably intended.

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Just now, Julian_Skies said:

Given the bubbles can be destroyed, probably intended.

Most players would be using Cryophons, which makes destroying the bubbles either impossible or undesirable since they might as well kill the Fighters with it. Besides, would it be best to just distance yourself from the Crewship at all times due to its weapons and Ramsleds?

Destroying the bubble doesn't solve the unintended bug of how long the healing lasts, which invalidates most of the Railjack's weapons.

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46 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Most players would be using Cryophons, which makes destroying the bubbles either impossible or undesirable since they might as well kill the Fighters with it. Besides, would it be best to just distance yourself from the Crewship at all times due to its weapons and Ramsleds?

Destroying the bubble doesn't solve the unintended bug of how long the healing lasts, which invalidates most of the Railjack's weapons.

I always just drag the fighters away from crew ships currently (or get the pilot to if they don't know) so both myself and the side turrets can eat them then go deal with the crew ships

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1 hour ago, Duality52 said:

Not just invisible Crewship bubbles, but how absurd the healing the bubble provides. Every weapon but the Cryophons and some Ordance weapons are unable to remotely damage them due to their healing speed. The prolonged healing also makes Outriders nearly unkillable unless you pound it repeatedly with your Archguns for the Tear proc to stack up.

Is it unintended that the healing lasts not only that long, but also to nullify most of the Railjack's arsenal?

From my experience, destroying the bubble/ all bubbles by shooting them completely removes the healing buff on every ship that had it. Every time I had to go out and shoot a bubble in archwing no ships were healing. Even ones that were just inside it so I think the healing is fine so long as that is an intended mechanic.

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it would be better if the whole mechanic of those healing-orbs is turned to something like an exploding bloom that heals affected ships once and then dissipate without being anyting shootable like this bubble nonsense - nor should it gives any lasting buffs. since it's grineer tech, the 'shield' effect of those bubbles is not really tangible imo - it would make more sense for them to apply some nano-machines that attach to friendly ships, do some repair and then go inert again. keep the funktion of those 'rockets', or whatever it is they shoot them from to be destroyable while in flight to its destination but that's it. also make those projectiles more like a missile or the ramsledges in their flight path. atm it looks rediculous how they get fired out of the crewship in all kind of angles and then still can do 90° and more sharp turns.

oh, and don't forget the nonsense of crewships without any crew on it left being able to shoot them or the ramsledges out. better yet: if you control a crewship and then left it sitting in space, it keeps shooting out those orbs that can't be destroyed neither in-flight nor when it becomes a bubble... and it still heals those grineer fighter that attacking said crewship...

and lastly, let there be a maximum of how many of those healing missiles a crewship can use - either at a given time (via cooldown timer) or better yet in total like you did with the ramsledges. atm, the spamming is so bad that combined with the 'visible to host only bug' the whole mission is dragging out far too much...

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On 2020-01-08 at 2:08 AM, Nasrol said:

For those of you who don’t know this yet, in the veil the crew ships deploy health bubbles that expand over time which will rapidly heal any ally ship in them

This most certainly explains why I couldn't seem to damage any fighters in the Veil. And here I thought the host just had rubbish weapons on their ship.

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6 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

um no the photor is as good as if not better than the cryophan because it can do both it has laser precision (the photor is a continuous beam laser after all with some punch through to boot) and over 1km range unlike the short range cryophan that or use the carcinax as the other meta gun no it is not one shoting them but even the MK III Sigam photors are more than capable of killing any fighters that they see it just requires tracking they also deal heat procs reducing their armor effectiveness while the carcinax can strip armor and make other ship weapons more useful.  

I have had this happen before use the MK III tyko seaker to one shot them

no you want you pression hit scan weapon on the gunner where his movement jukes are not a severe the cryo phan/appok/carcinax belong on the sides where there AOE and spread compensate for the jerky movement of a pilot (they need to add little more inerta to the ship or jerk (rate of acceleration) compensation to the side guns some times)

honestly I hate the cryohan for the same reason I like the Photors and Carcinax, range. I want to start shooting a few km out and the Photors allow me to do that and kill targets that the cryophan could never hit. I might build a vidar or lavan carcinax for the helm for better cannon use but that is low on my priorities list atm I need to farm prime gear for me and for plat

As I said, it works better for me, you may have a different approach that suits your playstyle, but both approaches have their downsides cause of the healing bubble effects. 

and photor feels weird after using projectile weapons, so I dont use it myself. 

Personal preference I guess. 

Tried both Vidar carcinnox for pilot and cryophon for sides and the other way around as well. 

I may have forgotten to mention that I do have a void Hole, that makes grouping enemies better so the side gunners can just concentrate at one point and blow them up with missiles while I destroy any incoming fighters as I can gauge the distance and adjust it. 

Vidar carcinnox also has more than 2k range  so most of my gunners are happy to use it. 

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