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Idea how to fix shields


Nikikin
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It's no secret that shields are right now useless in 40+ lvl content. Total capacity of the shield is on pair with health but unlike health it dose not have DR. And DE clearly shown to us over years that  they don't want to add DR to shields.

Ok. So why not go other way then. Let's make shields cap damage that it can receive over one shoot. Let's say every frame starts around 100 damage cap (HP heavy frames have bigger cap, shield heavy less). Plus mod for lowering this cap. That way no mather enemy level we will have shields for few stray shots. And frames like Hildryn can actually take a beating.

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Ever heard of Adaptation? It's a godsent on frames you want to go high-shield on. I have survived Lv. 100+ content with Mag with it no problem. Bonus points for keeping your shield up with Rakta Dark Dagger. 
Shields are not useless and, as opposed to health, have the huge advantage to regenerate fairly quickly after a few seconds. While I agree that they need something to be more attractive on squishy frames, I think this should be evaluated on a case-to-case basis and not as a general buff. 

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1 hour ago, Bouldershoulder said:

Imagine facing a heavy gunner lvl 250, feeling pretty secure behind your shields, and then it OHKO you as soon as shields are out

Well same thing with rhino...can't see anyone complaining about it.

And besides it would be at least something. Right now shields are completely useless.

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Il y a 1 heure, Vespilan a dit :

Ever heard of Adaptation? It's a godsent on frames you want to go high-shield on. I have survived Lv. 100+ content with Mag with it no problem. Bonus points for keeping your shield up with Rakta Dark Dagger. 
Shields are not useless and, as opposed to health, have the huge advantage to regenerate fairly quickly after a few seconds. While I agree that they need something to be more attractive on squishy frames, I think this should be evaluated on a case-to-case basis and not as a general buff. 

The problem is Adapatation stack multiplicatively with your EHP, so it's still better to invest in health rather than shield because health is better.

We need a real change to shield, not separate survivability tools, otherwise health will always be better than shields. Right know, shield is only worth using on Mag, Hildryn and the few frames that can regenerate shield through ability.
To be honest, I think the shield gating Hildryn has would be largely enough to make shield usable, maybe with the duration base on total shield or something else to encourage modding for it rather than keeping it as low as possible for fast recharge ?

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We need a real change to shield, not separate survivability tools, otherwise health will always be better than shields. Right know, shield is only worth using on Mag, Hildryn and the few frames that can regenerate shield through ability.


Not even on Mag, honestly. The reason shields are weak is universal and easy to understand: The two most dangerous enemy statuses in the game are Toxic and Slash. Can you really afford to forgo HP for Shields when you're a squishy frame, capable of being crushed by one hit from a status?

The issue with shields will remain simple: They have no benefit over HP other than they regenerate, and they cannot sufficiently PROTECT your health (like armor can). Think of general play enemies and how often they can avoid shields (just as we do right back): Grineer weapons almost always have slash in their kits (Eviscerator, Butcher, Flame Blade, Scorpion, and ofc Nox with Toxic, generally high Impact/Slash IPS weapons) whereas Infested have a ton of innate toxic/gas damage (specialty in Toxic Ancient, Osprey and Crawlers). Even when you get to Corpus, they specialize in heavy Magnetic damage, meaning they will deal bonus damage to your shields. 

You're going to get hit, is simply a reality. Which means that eventually you're going to catch one of these major statuses (although, for Mag/Hildryn they won't be bothered too much by Corpus even with the bonus damage). If that status is high enough to deal 300 damage, you lose. So you have to run HP on frames that would seem the perfect candidates for shields like Mag, who is too concerned with those status procs. Even if it isn't, the ways to recover your HP in warframe is super limited if your frame doesn't explicitly do so (Oberon, Inaros, Trinity, Nidus being the obvious HP recover frames). The 12% on your carrier coming every 15 seconds is slow, but more importantly it's based on your % health, not flat. This makes it WAY more powerful on something like an Inaros than a 300HP squishy, but it also doubles down on the reasons you want to run Vitality over Redirection.

IMO the problem of shields being weaker that raw HP will always exist so long as slash and toxic can undercut you. The best Quality of Life chance I can see to this is to let OVERSHIELDS eat status procs like Slash and Toxic. Until then, even frames that are shield-focused cannot stand to focus on their shields in mods because they constantly need to be aware that status procs happen. FWIW I think shields are fine in absorbing pure damage but this might also be that I am extensively a Mag-only player and can easily just refresh about 540 shield on command. The fix they need is to give them SOME way to protect you vs health-killing statuses, because shields already have innate weaknesses to specific damage types anyways.

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I've always seen shields as nice to have, but health keeps you alive. Playing Oberon I know once my shields fail it's time to turn on renewal, same with Ivara that once her shields drop run and cloak. Just like most games once your shields are gone that's your sign to get down. For now I'd agree with everyone here, prioritize health and even armor over shields unless you're playing someone like Hildryn. 

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9 hours ago, Vespilan said:

Ever heard of Adaptation? It's a godsent on frames you want to go high-shield on. I have survived Lv. 100+ content with Mag with it no problem. Bonus points for keeping your shield up with Rakta Dark Dagger. 
Shields are not useless and, as opposed to health, have the huge advantage to regenerate fairly quickly after a few seconds. While I agree that they need something to be more attractive on squishy frames, I think this should be evaluated on a case-to-case basis and not as a general buff. 

In the current state of Warframe, health is almost free. The "huge advantage" is actually a disadvantage as there are fewer ways to regenerate shield than regenerate health - a conscious decision based on the fact that shields regenerate naturally.

1) Not only do you heal faster than you regenerate shields (from Warframes, Arcanes, Weapons, and even many Mods), Adaptation is also not exclusive to shields - meaning that health can tank significantly more due to armor further increasing damage reduction.

2) Armor and health also don't have a max capacity, allowing buffs to stack. However, most shield buffs can only "heal" until over shields, and nothing more.

3) The Umbral mod set also gives massive boosts to health & armor but not shields. The result is that the boost is stronger on frames focused on health, rather than shields (especially frames that boost armor due to the +66% strength).

4) Rage/Hunter Ad. doesn't work with shields

5) All this, plus how Toxin/Gas/Slash procs completely ignore shields.

 

In the end, shields are valuable when first getting through the star chart, but are lackluster in late-game as people begin to build for better synergy.

Edited by Zectico
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I've posted a couple times on this issue before, and I've come to some specific conclusions on how shields need to be changed to make them a viable alternative to armor for EHP.
I'll be lazy about it and just quote the last time I brought it up:

On 2020-01-02 at 3:24 AM, DrakeWurrum said:

I personally think shields can be tweaked to have a greater impact on play if they did the following things:

  1. We need significantly MORE shields on every frame (besides Hildryn, really, but they would have to overhaul her kit if my suggestions were put in), since the full damage is done to shields. It needs to be able to scale up alongside how much incoming damage we take. Maybe shields should scale with our health by a percentage, and we can use mods to increase that percentage.
  2. Shields need to completely prevent status effects while up (Anthem did this, and it actually worked well), to give us a really strong incentive to wanting shields as a defense.
  3. Every warframe needs a universally-applied method of actively restoring their own shields during combat as an "active" defense method, rather than cowering behind cover, as that doesn't fit the combat style of Warframe. It could be as simple as picking up an energy orb, or a major regeneration boost upon using a Roll or Bullet Jump, or even when blocking with the melee weapon.
  4. Shield-gating needs to be universal for all frames, in order to reinforce that it's meant to protect our HP.
  5. Any shield regenerating method needs to do so by percentage, rather than flat amounts.

While also severely reducing the delay before shields regenerate. One thing I like about Railjack shields is I can reduce the shield delay dramatically. My ship only has 1.5 seconds on the delay, and it means my shields actually have in-combat value.

Maybe one aspect to shield-gating needs to be that, once you start regenerating shields, the invulnerability phase from shield-gating activates for a few seconds, giving you a chance to gain some shields back mid-combat as a reward for actively avoiding/preventing damage successfully.

Shot in the dark, completely random thought that probably sucks: what if our HP regenerated naturally while our shields are active?

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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shields have their benefits.

i just think that a health build costs less space and is even more rewarding than a shield focused build. health, armor, and a good health-regen method either by a warframe ability or life strike is really all you need in extremely high levels. that is without mentioning rage which rewards you energy if your health is damaged.

the best unique quality shield mods have is an electric shock to enemies that damage your shields with a melee attack, and that is just sad. also, to me at least, just one shield regen mod is not enough for high levels so you almost have to have all three (fast deflection, fortitude, and vigilante vigor), which are all warframe mods, not including redirection. you could argue that there is an augur mod set bonus, but that costs 4 warframe slots and costs energy.

i just think they need to do three things:

  • add a recharge delay mod that can be an alternative to armor as redirection is to vitality. 
  • add a melee mod that stacks recharge rate for a limited amount of time (either upon a kill, stacks with combo multiplier, or upon a critical hit/status effect).
  • shields initially protect health from the attack that destroyed them.
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@MysticDragonMage

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shields have their benefits.

Sure. They regenerate naturally. Otherwise, would you like to elaborate here?

Quote

also, to me at least, just one shield regen mod is not enough for high levels so you almost have to have all three (fast deflection, fortitude, and vigilante vigor), which are all warframe mods, not including redirection.

So because all these are % shield increases, your milage may vary. Playing Mag, one of these will get me to 1100 shields. The AMOUNT is more than enough, yet I'd still not run it because status procs undercut it.

 

Quote
  • shields initially protect health from the attack that destroyed them.

Shield gating has been discussed before by DE and never implemented supposedly because it would be abusable for some invincible warframe combination. Still doesn't answer the core issue.

 

Like I want to be clear: I play the perfect shield frame in Mag. I have high shields, instant regeneration, and ability to overshield. Uniquely, we HAVE all these suggested fixes (beyond shield gating) As I'm sure any Mag player can back me up in saying: None of these help shields. The core issue is just that they get undercut by status procs. Slash and Toxic are way too good against shields, just invalidating over half your EHP. Like I can't underpin this enough: the MAJOR, FUNDAMENTAL issue of shields is that they are completely ignored by the most pervasive statuses in this game and there is zero way to remedy that currently.

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39 minutes ago, Ajwf said:

Like I want to be clear: I play the perfect shield frame in Mag. I have high shields, instant regeneration, and ability to overshield. Uniquely, we HAVE all these suggested fixes (beyond shield gating) As I'm sure any Mag player can back me up in saying: None of these help shields. The core issue is just that they get undercut by status procs. Slash and Toxic are way too good against shields, just invalidating over half your EHP. Like I can't underpin this enough: the MAJOR, FUNDAMENTAL issue of shields is that they are completely ignored by the most pervasive statuses in this game and there is zero way to remedy that currently.

and i dont disagree. i'd even argue that i would prefer this over shield gating. i'd still like my other two suggestions though.

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24 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well ****
When can we expect that the be nerfed?

The same notion of how arcane grace, arcane energize and arcane guardian should be nerfed for being `meta` to builds. Those basically became necessities in all any builds in the later game so chonky frames like Grace allows a fun energy loop with rage mods or just being dang immortal except to being spam by bombards or similar elements. Energize cause its only one of two ways (Other being Zenurik but that gets clucked when channels are up, whether its the dash or the regen on orb pick ups) to easily recover energy outside of pancakes and relying on other frames to hand you some red bull, with the last one just being a over-all good boi filler to fragile frames since 600 armor is alot of D.R. especially to frames with low armor.

The point is if D.E. decides to nerf adaptation out of the blue, then its just going to do more harm to piss off everyone, since giving people a powerful tool for a long while and then suddenly taking it away is never a good idea. It only worked with Chroma because that was one frame, pretty much dominating being a mobile turret, which he still technically is, just we have Octavia & Ivara who can do alot more then that also.

Anyway, i feel that even if they double redirection`s shield bonus amount and also brought every warframe(that has a low shield amount) up to about 300-600 base shields, that likely will still do nothing, since shields have no form of D.R. meaning they need to have an absurd amount just to match even the bottom barrel of natural tankiness some frames can achieve. Which is kind of why i rather D.E. just changes how shields work as instead of a numerical damage guard, it should instead be some kind of layered blocker of things like status procs with thresholds based on the `shield amount` the warframe has (in addition to overshields and other things having a double functionality of sorts) on top of having periods of being status immune shortly after each shield layer break to make them last longer then only a short second if you have something like a Nox spamming you with toxin procs.

Since if Health and Armor already is in such a ridiculous state, it would be better if Shields were put into a different functionality that plenty of people have issues with, such as how ridiculous some kind of status ailments can happen. With of course Hildryn being likely that special snowflake alongside over shields still allowing numerical `shields` to still be possible, but would act more as a 2nd health `gate` as usual, with the `new version` of regular shields being something else.

Edited by Avienas
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5 hours ago, Avienas said:

The same notion of how arcane grace, arcane energize and arcane guardian should be nerfed for being `meta` to builds. Those basically became necessities in all any builds in the later game so chonky frames like Grace allows a fun energy loop with rage mods or just being dang immortal except to being spam by bombards or similar elements. Energize cause its only one of two ways (Other being Zenurik but that gets clucked when channels are up, whether its the dash or the regen on orb pick ups) to easily recover energy outside of pancakes and relying on other frames to hand you some red bull, with the last one just being a over-all good boi filler to fragile frames since 600 armor is alot of D.R. especially to frames with low armor.

The point is if D.E. decides to nerf adaptation out of the blue, then its just going to do more harm to piss off everyone, since giving people a powerful tool for a long while and then suddenly taking it away is never a good idea. It only worked with Chroma because that was one frame, pretty much dominating being a mobile turret, which he still technically is, just we have Octavia & Ivara who can do alot more then that also.

Anyway, i feel that even if they double redirection`s shield bonus amount and also brought every warframe(that has a low shield amount) up to about 300-600 base shields, that likely will still do nothing, since shields have no form of D.R. meaning they need to have an absurd amount just to match even the bottom barrel of natural tankiness some frames can achieve. Which is kind of why i rather D.E. just changes how shields work as instead of a numerical damage guard, it should instead be some kind of layered blocker of things like status procs with thresholds based on the `shield amount` the warframe has (in addition to overshields and other things having a double functionality of sorts) on top of having periods of being status immune shortly after each shield layer break to make them last longer then only a short second if you have something like a Nox spamming you with toxin procs.

Since if Health and Armor already is in such a ridiculous state, it would be better if Shields were put into a different functionality that plenty of people have issues with, such as how ridiculous some kind of status ailments can happen. With of course Hildryn being likely that special snowflake alongside over shields still allowing numerical `shields` to still be possible, but would act more as a 2nd health `gate` as usual, with the `new version` of regular shields being something else.

They nerfed CO and Chroma because they were “multiplicative”. That’s why I’m now expecting a nerf of Adaptation. Because we apparently can’t have good things because they’re “too strong”.

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50 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They nerfed CO and Chroma because they were “multiplicative”. That’s why I’m now expecting a nerf of Adaptation. Because we apparently can’t have good things because they’re “too strong”.

In my opinion, more strong tools game has, the better it feels. We need more "imbalanced" things in our arsenal, instead of achieving great communist goal - of everything should be the same and bland.

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48 minutes ago, Nikikin said:

In my opinion, more strong tools game has, the better it feels. We need more "imbalanced" things in our arsenal, instead of achieving great communist goal - of everything should be the same and bland.

Especially since warframe is a PvE looter slash mass musou killing spree sort of game at this point. C.C. unless it mass lock downs large groups of enemies, means little because mass map killing frames exist. Any attempt to keep old content like Conclave, resource extractor drones, pointless mechanics like regular mod transmutation, Darvo`s so-called weapon sales, plus a multi-tude of systems that have some in a quite literal sense, have not been updated since it has been first introduced, is just pretty much a waste of file size space, especially since some of it is not even newbie friendly and even for `vets` or `eccentrics` serves no use since some of it requires a `healthy population` for that content, but good luck with that when likely its a rarity to have enough people to play it to begin with.

Which is kind of a small irony i believe that they got rid of the 8 man raid content, yet left conclave in with no form of changes that i ever really heard of, Certainly might of been nice for some i guess if it is a feature, to be able to just do 1vs1s or 2vs2s in the content. But then its likely still only going to be some clan or close friends kind of thing, then hoping one can do it with public randos.

Never the less, games like Warframe are usually best when they learn to embrace that focus on feeling OP as heck, sadly i cant be pulling any perfect examples off the top of my head at the moment, but i always find those that do only PvE content, you can find games that let you do interesting things like turning into some giant super mode, typically after filling a gauge in combat and firing off huge lasers, a hailstorm of blasts from the sky, swinging around giant weapons, speeding thru a map and taking out dozens of enemies, if not hundreds and just plain having that feeling where if it was some musou style game, you would be clearing a large areas and making alot of red, enemy markers, on the map disappear in the process.

 

But back on topic, most games i recall that DO use shields tends to either have you have things like cover systems, alongside shields that do not take forever to regenerate. Have the shields be the LITERAL health bar and it s once you get to that moment when your shield fully breaks and you start getting pinged with the sounds of bullets penetrating your flesh, tends to be when your character is about to keel over since without the shields your quite squishie. That or they go for the real classical style of only a health bar that could be increased rather easily and sometimes equips that can give D.R. to mitigate damage, especially in higher level content, so you are not dying as fast.

In Warframe`s case its basically the latter since just like Doom guy, you just run into foes and start blasting the heck out of them, with no real concern if your frontside is just buried in layers of gunfire, but sadly unlike that nice element that alot of game developers pull in shooters, namely make your last bit of health have alot more durability then it looks like, typically as a last stand sort of bit. Warframe pretty much makes one not feel much weight to the shields breaking or the health getting low except a very silent ping noise and when one suddenly notices thar health is low and they either instant heal it with a operator`s vazarin dash or Magus Repair or be one of those frames that can just full heal from the damage in a instant like Trinity.

Edited by Avienas
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