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There is no customization in Railjack


Educated_Beast
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What I loved about Warframe is that I could tweak a frame the way I wanted.  Sure I could build the meta, but I know what mods are out there and could make an alternate builds for many different frames or make builds that synergize with other team mates.  

None of that is true with railjack.  I have no idea what is out there, it is just a bunch of random crap.  If DE was consistent with the design philosophy that made them popular, they would have made 10 or so (each) reactors, engines, shields with different stats.  Some with high top speed, low acceleration, the middle stat, and the extreme opposite with known boosts.

Then we could hunt and trade, min/max, and make the perfect railjack on configuration A, then work on configuration B.  

Imagine if shopping for a car was like this railjack game mode.  You would never get what you wanted.  Imagine the horrible quality control these futuristic manufactures have!  How in the hell can a futuristic engineer be such a moron?  Is this Warframe Idiocracy?  Well, it could be a really great reactor, but most likely it's garbage....

Warframe was about getting what you wanted but now it's about random physiological tricks meant to fool the simple minded into giving them more money.  

I guess I am done with my railjack, how would I know it's finished anyway?  

Edited by Educated_Beast
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I don't know what's DE's plan regarding expanding Railjack content, but if I were on their shoes I wouldn't invest tremendous amount of development effort on customization without first making sure that the game mode is successful enough to justify it.

The future will tell, I guess.

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8 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I don't know what's DE's plan regarding expanding Railjack content, but if I were on their shoes I wouldn't invest tremendous amount of development effort on customization without first making sure that the game mode is successful enough to justify it.

The future will tell, I guess.

They only have to look at success in past to know what to do in future.  Of course it will be rejected with the customer base they already built.  

The RNG design is based off mobile phone games/sales but these games never last for more than a year or two unless it pays some high royalty to build off someone else success like Star trek, star wars, etc.  

I guess they are looking for new customers used to mobile games and veterans who been around since beginning and starting to bother them.  

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14 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I don't know what's DE's plan regarding expanding Railjack content, but if I were on their shoes I wouldn't invest tremendous amount of development effort on customization without first making sure that the game mode is successful enough to justify it.

Before Liches and Railjack I'd have said the same about RNG stats on everything, that it's not worth the effort of investing tremendous amounts of development effort on RNG stats for content padding without first making sure that the content is successful and enjoyable enough to justify it.

But here we are.

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11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Before Liches and Railjack I'd have said the same about RNG stats on everything, that it's not worth the effort of investing tremendous amounts of development effort on RNG stats for content padding without first making sure that the content is successful and enjoyable enough to justify it.

But here we are.

Well I love to min/max and that WAS the attraction to Warframe.  Now it is impossible.  

For me, there is no reason to continue with random stats because I will never get there.  There is no finish line, there is no optimal build for one scenario and another good build for a different mission, it's just use the best you can find.  Some may find on first try, others never. 

I guess most people become addicted to casino type games and that's why DE is fundamentally changing the game.  

I guess I'm getting to old for video games.  While I enjoy what railjack could be, I just cannot support what it is.  I'm not going to keep playing to get the perfect build because it is not out there.  I'm going to just become a F2P player, play until progress is not possible, and wait around until the next thing.  

Railjack is an awesome concept that fell flat on its face due to corporate greed and Skinner box game design.  

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1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

What I loved about Warframe is that I could tweak a frame the way I wanted.  Sure I could build the meta, but I know what mods are out there and could make an alternate builds for many different frames or make builds that synergize with other team mates.  

None of that is true with railjack.  I have no idea what is out there, it is just a bunch of random crap. 

Have you.... Checked the wiki? 

I mean..... I seen people theorycrafting their avionics on the forums. They seem to know quite a bit about what's out there. 

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

Well I love to min/max and that WAS the attraction to Warframe.  Now it is impossible.  

For me, there is no reason to continue with random stats because I will never get there.  There is no finish line, there is no optimal build for one scenario and another good build for a different mission, it's just use the best you can find.  Some may find on first try, others never. 

And the vast majority of us will fall somewhere in between, probably near the expected average. Odds are that DE will eventually include a ameliorate those outliers who haven't gotten it. 

 

As for minmaxing.... You still can. You don't need a max capacity reactor for that. Minmaxing is about using what you have to produce the greatest results. You could minmax with a Sigma reactor, and upgrade as you go along. 

The issue isn't not being able to minmax. It's that you're upset because you haven't been instantly gratified by being among the luckiest few. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Have you.... Checked the wiki? 

I mean..... I seen people theorycrafting their avionics on the forums. They seem to know quite a bit about what's out there. 

And the vast majority of us will fall somewhere in between, probably near the expected average. Odds are that DE will eventually include a ameliorate those outliers who haven't gotten it. 

 

As for minmaxing.... You still can. You don't need a max capacity reactor for that. Minmaxing is about using what you have to produce the greatest results. You could minmax with a Sigma reactor, and upgrade as you go along. 

The issue isn't not being able to minmax. It's that you're upset because you haven't been instantly gratified by being among the luckiest few. 

I disagree.  

I'm upset because it is not possible to min/max the way it is possible for warframes.  Warframes are not limited by random capacity, anyone making a build will include a reactor, it doesn't even need to be mentioned.  You have a set amount of points with aura mod and build the best you can within those points for the desired outcome, which could be melee, caster, tank, etc., often on same frame!  Some random people don't have half Warframe capacity to work with.

With railjack, random stats on reactors, engines, weapons, and shields (to an extent) makes this impossible.   Especially reactors, you will always have a moving target.  Reactor capacity should be a trade-off (flux versus avionics is great) but should never be random!  This is a fundamental flaw in min/max philosophy.  If you don't get it yet, you will eventually.  

There is no way to make a guide for a railjack because everything is random.  Make the guide sure, but only some people would be able to use it.   

It is a garbage customization scheme built off a mobile game Skinner box mentality.  Do you understand that it is impossible to finish a build with a moving target?  I'm not talking avionics, those are identical to mods and not the problem.  It is the ship parts that screw up customization.

Warframe has never been about the impossible to finish and progress always possible with work.  But this is a fundamental change in game design.  You are free to disagree and blame me for wanting instant gratification but that doesn't make it true.  

I would just like gratification at some point in future.  I realize now that with this new game design philosophy DE has adopted, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to ever finish. That's my problem.  

I liked the old Warframe where I knew what was out there and had to make it fit in the box.  The box size wasn't random.  I knew what all the mods did and thier interactions.  Riven mods were exceptions but a sole source of heartache that could be traded for if really wanted.  Even then, a riven mod did not change the size of the box, only what else could be fit in it   With railjacks, every part is a riven mod and the reactor can limit progression forever.

Min/max is gone, you can only build what you have, there are no trade offs.  

Edited by Educated_Beast
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3 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

They only have to look at success in past to know what to do in future.  Of course it will be rejected with the customer base they already built. 

Sadly other companies will not learn to capitalize on better measures or actually get a clue to refer to actual successful titles that are roughly in the same style of genre (Looter games, Online games, etc.), To understand what approach they could of taken to improve upon the game.

  • Kuva Liches were suppose to be a hyped up nemesis system but instead we got a rushed out product of a bully who fks with our loot but is completely unlinked to the main gameplay. It would of made more sense to have them focused as a mid-level content then a so-called end-game level content. Since D.E. could of been more creative such as making part of it solo (such as the forward base motif some have suggested), where you could attack the boss directly, make it feel like a PERSONAL fight and even how some games do not need to land-lock people into scripted elements to make it work. Which certainly would of been better to have something like the Prelate Infested where he takes short invul periods to promptly kill the lights. For Kuva liches, something as simple as them charging up to unleash a powerful knockdown to THEN do the scripted kill wold of been better. BUT, by attacking the lich enough to pass the DPS check or so to interrupt them and open a op to Script stab them, would of certainly been more impressive and a nice sense of accomplishment.

Granted this is just how i tend to enjoy games which brings more control to players to `survive` a phase, while punishing you in ways that could be as simple as making a fight harder if you tried to mindlessly DPS a enemy, instead of doing something like doing a heavy attack on a enemy to stun them, just a small what-if example honestly.

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The RNG design is based off mobile phone games/sales but these games never last for more than a year or two unless it pays some high royalty to build off someone else success like Star trek, star wars, etc.  

RNG systems for mobile games, tend to have much higher drop rates then the 1% line, especially since MOST have stamina systems. Plus more successful designs tend to actually do good ideas like fully recovering your `stamina` when you level (not just some partial smidgeon amount), actually unload plenty of recovery items to you and instead of RNG-sus systems to acquire power. You can invest resources to build up the stats of your characters or even a particular element/weapon-type can be given percentage bonuses. Throw in things like half cost stamina events, double`d up drops( or drop rates) and even guranteed loot especially for first time or weekly clears, it becomes alot more pleasant to gravitate towards a game.

Granted, this is likely me just praising the model Dragalia Lost has despite not having any origin to it as a kind of original mobile IP, yet when i glance at stuff like Animal Crossing & Mario Kart`s mobile game spin offs, i simply shake my head in disgust on how terrible the mobile elements are. You could honestly have the most nasty of RNG-sus elements in a game but if its design is properly done and give some guranteed proc method that is fair, i feel like big fancy names will never let any game in general work at all, if approaches that are good to your playerbase are NOT done at all.

Warframe originally was alot more fair since such rng-sus systems weren`t so stupid, you did not need some absurd builds or extremely niche loadouts using absurdly annoying to get mods and things like Arcanes were entirely optional. Shame Warframe as i have repeated in many threads, had to get steered to constantly add `new content` without polishing anything it had or got before jumping onto the next fancy gimmick. Leaving Warframe with plenty of content that might as well get scrapped and revised in a more contained and connected system.

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I guess they are looking for new customers used to mobile games and veterans who been around since beginning and starting to bother them.  

You can bet console games styled in mobile like format is amongst some of the most scummy of design gameplay especially if they never try to redesign that mobile aspect in a much better way, which usually is the Gacha or Loot box system that got utterly shat on a few companies made it quite clear at how nasty they made it. To where they pretty much cut down the size of the content to be MUCH less, in favor of looking `absolutely stunning` or a `loot system` where your likely spending more time fiddling with weapons & armor and admiring so-called amazing visuals, then actually playing an actual game.

Plus if your going for a mobile like approach to gameplay, its a contradiction to veteran focused, because mobile gaming tends to usually focus on a amazing experience for newer players while making sure they have some kind of cling to keep them wanting to come back. Considering warframe does not make the EARLY weapons and Warframes have much faster crafting times, this kind of screws that important notion to get players having a good time and slowly increasing those wait timers for the bigger and more OP stuff, such as crafting prime weapons/warframes, which should be what that 3 day wait should be line (in total, honestly the wait time to craft warframe parts should just be removed or the full set should be condensed to be 72 hours between making the parts and the warframe itself).

 

Either way, if a game does not properly setup a friendly system at the beginning (*cough* Gifts & Tutorials *cough*), while giving something that is a exciting challenge for Vets, then they pretty much fail the point of even the most basic design of a game itself. Plus before you say Dark Souls or other similar games, your given the time to actually make your character, so your not entirely thrown to the ravenous wolves right away.

Edited by Avienas
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1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

I'm upset because it is not possible to min/max the way it is possible for warframes.  Warframes are not limited by random capacity, anyone making a build will include a reactor, it doesn't even need to be mentioned.

First off of course it is. 

And second, you act like there's only one way to minmax. But we both know that that you can do it without any forma, or with varying levels of forma as you advance. You don't start with a base warframe and drop all the mods in. You upgrade it several times depending on what you want to achieve. 

So I'm sorry but your claims are false, because you can very well craft your avionic builds around the capacity that's available. And you can upgrade, as better reactors become available. 

All your complaint boils down to is "I don't have the best of the best yet and I refuse to play unless it's given to me right now". 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

First off of course it is. 

And second, you act like there's only one way to minmax. But we both know that that you can do it without any forma, or with varying levels of forma as you advance. You don't start with a base warframe and drop all the mods in. You upgrade it several times depending on what you want to achieve. 

So I'm sorry but your claims are false, because you can very well craft your avionic builds around the capacity that's available. And you can upgrade, as better reactors become available. 

All your complaint boils down to is "I don't have the best of the best yet and I refuse to play unless it's given to me right now". 

Your comprehension of my complaint is lacking and stop with the entitlement crap.  I never once said anything to say I must have it right now.  Read my post again, I'm getting tired of responding to your white knight BS.  

- Warframes have a given capacity and reactors are given out frequently or can be bought via nightwave easily.  60 capacity + aura is the min/max limit for all warframes.  There are no random capacity warframes that screw over players.  None, not a single one.  If there were, guides would be impossible to create because the capacity is different player to player.  This is not a mod or avionic problem, it is a random capacity problem.  This makes the building process and min/max verses setting a goal and achieving it impossible.  How can you plan for random?  

- Railjacks have random capacity.  If the sigma series reactors were all that was available, that would be great.  That would be a much better system, with set capacity that can be traded off.  So you get a different reactor with set capacity / flux bonuses so the box is the same always.  The tradeoffs the same always.  Then the same capacity is available to all players, just like Warframes.  Then the min/max can begin.  DE could introduce new reactors with different bonuses, but never random BS that is impossible to plan and build for.  This design is a min/max nightmare.  

I'm trying not to be rude to you but you are making it very hard with the entitlement insults.  This design screws over players that enjoying thinking about different builds and squeezing every bit of power out of the same constants all players have.  I get it, you do not like to think, but some people do.  The problem here is not entitlement, its that everyone has different constraints.  If reactors were static but had varying levels of +/- flux, capacity, and even boost speed, then there is an "end" to a certain build.  This never ends and random is just not fun.  I'm all for hard to get, require grind to get (did hema in solo clan), but random just sucks.  

It can be fixed now by removing all randomness in railjack parts and just introducing multiple versions with +/- parts (such as corrupted mods do).  With many different versions, then many different builds can be made.  

With this BS, one build can be made, it is the only build available, the one you randomly get.  No amount of playing, thinking, trading, will ever change that.  You cannot min/max random.  If you do not get that, I'm sorry but nature wasn't kind to you.  

 

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1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

Your comprehension of my complaint is lacking and stop with the entitlement crap.  I never once said anything to say I must have it right now.  Read my post again, I'm getting tired of responding to your white knight BS.  

Followed by:

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

If the sigma series reactors were all that was available, that would be great.  That would be a much better system, with set capacity that can be traded off. 

So, just use the sigma reactors and quit the bellyaching? 

 

Oh wait you're not going to do that because you only want the best to minmax. 

 

Again pretending that a warframe with a single polarized slot, and one with 5 forma added have the same level of capacity, or that there aren't builds specifically made for items with varying levels of forma, with and without umbrals... Well that's garbage. 

The point of the game is to make the most of what we have at any given time, and upgrade when we can, if we choose to do so. 

You are more than able to do that with Railjack too, but you're pretending that it's not possible. If you want to revise your position and say "I could do it but I just want better than I have right now" that's perfectly reasonable and wouldn't be anywhere near as entitled as you're making yourself out to be. 

And claiming that "there's only one build possible" that's pure BS. Right now I get to decide between missile swarms or portable blackholes, between adding resistance to damage types, or adding to damage dealt, or maybe it'll be dumping shields and bulking up on armour, or was it shield regen that I want? 

Because again even with a great reactor, chances are that you will not be able to max out all of your avionics. Some will have to be left at partially ranked. 

So you'll have to make choices about what you want to put, and you'll find that there are multiple options for your builds. 

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I'm personally holding out hope that the current design for the Zetki/Lavan/Vidar Houses is not the way they really want it to be, because obviously everybody is using the same houses for what they see as the best version, with VERY few exceptions.

Let alone with avionics. I've not heard of anybody *wanting* to use Vidar Bulkhead or Hull Weave, for example.

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2 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

obviously everybody is using the same houses for what they see as the best version, with VERY few exceptions

If they are, they are probably not doing it right.

There are house variations that make sense to use when you have to manage avionics slot space. It's better investment to use those, rather than a low upgraded version than the best one.

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17 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

If they are, they are probably not doing it right.

There are house variations that make sense to use when you have to manage avionics slot space. It's better investment to use those, rather than a low upgraded version than the best one.

Generally... not really. I have the Sigma MK3 reactor still, so only the +50 from that. I have every grid slot maxed because I just haven't had any other use for DIRAC yet.

I have:

  • Zetki Bulkhead maxed
  • Zetki Hull Weave maxed
  • Zetki Hyperstrike maxed
  • Zetki Polar Coil maxed
  • Lavan Conic Nozzle maxed (not sure if there's a better one, haven't seen it)
  • Particle Ram maxed (useful for breaking rocks to farm resources, but also gets me plenty of dead fighters)
  • Vidar Winged Storm partially ranked (because, for now, it affects the Railjack damage too)

I probably could switch back to Vidar Hull Weave. 5 capacity for 40%~ armor loss. But I have no real specific avionic that I see as more valuable than maxing my armor. Same with Hyperstrike and gun damage.

My ship very rarely gets breaches, so long as I'm actively piloting and my team is taking down crewships for me. My guns take down fighters with ease. Zetki Cryophon needs two shots max for any target smaller than a crewship.

While I could squeeze more options in with the lower drain options, I see no reason to as my ship is excessively strong for the hardest Veil content. The only improvement I need is Void Hole, which I can squeeze in by trading out Winged Storm and Particle Ram, but it hasn't dropped yet. Might get a better reactor first.

More avionics would just be icing on my extremely durable cake.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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Eather remove random stats, wand make them maxed, or get rid of 100% of the resource cost to make up for it, I'm not going to grind resources just to drop something better 10 secs after I build something 

The whole idea if the railjacks grind makes me very close to quitting Warframe..

 2 years for this? Does this look like to years of work? It likes like 3 months if work at best from 15 people on a team of 300

I would not be complaining if it wasn't just 25+ of the same map and same enemies

And we r expected to do 2000 runs at 15 mins each just to have a decent build

I'm not doing 500 hours, I'm not doing 250 hours and I won't even do 100 hours without a fking pach that gives more mission types with the resources boosted by a factor of 100

Some resources don't even spawn half the time... And if ur lucky and get 10 when they do and need over 5k

Edited by (PS4)Spider_Enigma
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From what ive seen theres already pretty much a standard meta that most people seem to be using. 

Basically bulkhead, hyperstrike, the armor mod along with the crit mods are mandatory more or less. This is then run with a vidar cryophon at the pilot station with vidar carcinnoxes as the side guns. For battle avionics people tend to run with particle ram and void hole, mainly since the alternatives hit like a wet noodle against most enemies beyond earth. Add in a mk3 tycho seeker to nuke enemies caught in the void hole and you pretty much have the "standard" build as far as ive seen. This can be built on a mk 3 sigma reactor easily enough but the build is basically stuck with that and to actually add anything significant on top of it you need a better reactor.

So for "the" build you basically need to go vidar all the way with good rolls and they /really/ need to boost the drop chances of that stuff. Most of it has a 2% drop chance at mission completion on top of the RNG roll that can make the stuff either epic or garbage, usually garbage.

I'd love for the RNG on the stats to be removed entirely as people in this thread say, or the drop chance of vidar stuff to be increased by something like 1000% to 20% per mission. It doesn't really add anything other than repeating the same mission (they are all the same) to death until you /may/ get something better than what you have and probably never entirely finishing. I definitely hope that DE isn't going the standard MMO gear treadmill route with railjack in where they would basically be releasing increasing tiers of gear and force everyone to grind their stuff all over again and again. That kind of approach does have a huge downside in that it tends to make older stuff laughably easy and completely useless for most things, which is basically already the case. Once you have the needed avionics all you basically have left is to endlessly farm the veil for better RNG gear, which is what I'm currently on myself. No use farming anything else until i have a reactor to actually fit it.

That reactor is basically the big problem with railjack right no in my opinion. And in comparison to using forma etc on a frame there is no real progression you can actually work towards. Instead its just repeating missions until the slot machine spits out a jackpot. A far better system here would be some kind of upgrades with dirac or whatnot so that the avionics capacity is something that can be built over time rather than entirely dependent on being lucky.

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2 hours ago, Vahenir said:

 

That reactor is basically the big problem with railjack right no in my opinion. And in comparison to using forma etc on a frame there is no real progression you can actually work towards. Instead its just repeating missions until the slot machine spits out a jackpot. A far better system here would be some kind of upgrades with dirac or whatnot so that the avionics capacity is something that can be built over time rather than entirely dependent on being lucky.

Exactly, but I'd prefer they had mutiple reactors that have static stats that have different pros and cons.  Basically, the mod system already in place but for parts.  This would force thought into every build.  Want a fast ship with tons of flux energy for casting, great make it.  There can even be tiers for this type part   Want a tank, great, but it will be slow with less energy.  Want something in middle, great, farm for that.  The reactor, engine, and shield system could be so interesting and a min/max dream keeping players interested for years.  Instead we got a steaming pile of dung based off random stats and skinner box phycological mind tricks.

Quests could be made for clan research blueprints and could be an expensive resource grind but still have progress.  So many things could have been done to show creativity and keep player trust rather than creating a casino.

Random drops makes it impossible to work towards a set goal (min/max, develop guides, or work alternate builds).  It takes all the fun out of the game.  You just build the best ship you can with whatever random item dropped.  Forget planning or designing a build within certain known parameters.

I love the game mode and having fun so far, but I see a time in the very near future where I can't be bothered by it.  The skill building is gone and what I enjoy in Warframe is lacking in railjack.  Looks like DE has sold out and I no longer trust them as a game developer.  

In the past I'd compare other games to Warframe as a prime example of how it should be done.  I do not and cannot do that anymore.  It's now as much a Skinner box as any backally mobile game.  

 

Edited by Educated_Beast
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9 hours ago, Vahenir said:

This is then run with a vidar cryophon at the pilot station with vidar carcinnoxes as the side guns.

Actually, in my experience, Zetki Cryophon is the way to go for pilot guns, unless you get a near-perfect Vidar roll. Even with the increased heat generation, you're gonna be one-shotting enemy fighters regardless.

7 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

Looks like DE has sold out and I no longer trust them as a game developer.

That's an extreme reaction from one poorly-designed update that they literally rushed out at the last second of the year for the sake of getting it out in 2019 instead of 2020. Both liches and railjack screams that they procrastinated on the big stuff until the last second, then decided they didn't want to delay them and force it out in a hurry with major crunch-time.

They're an independently-run studio. They make mistakes all the time. It's up to us to let them know when it's a mistake. That's how it's always worked.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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5 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

That's an extreme reaction from one poorly-designed update that they literally rushed out at the last second of the year for the sake of getting it out in 2019 instead of 2020. Both liches and railjack screams that they procrastinated on the big stuff until the last second, then decided they didn't want to delay them and force it out in a hurry with major crunch-time.

They're an independently-run studio. They make mistakes all the time. It's up to us to let them know when it's a mistake. That's how it's always worked.

Perhaps, I really hope your right.  The problem is, they are adding more and more of these casino type mind tricks into the game.  The last few major updates has shown DE has lost focus of making a fun game and moved into making an addictive game. 

At the moment, it's still fun, but I've already finished all the customization I can with dojo sigma reactors.  Done in a couple weeks.  I'd like to move on but can't, or won't.  I'm ok with grind because I'm playing a game I enjoy.  I am not ok with gambling.  It's a fundamental change in game development.  

We all know how much customization warframes have if you let go of meta and be creative.  I'd like the same with ships but that will never be possible with random stats.  

We'll see on next patch if DE addresses bugs that help players, or fix the bugs that hurt players first.  It will really suck to see a cool game mode destroyed with loot boxes.

Edited by Educated_Beast
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