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A simple fix for the Hema Problem


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EDIT: This post is literally not asking for a change in the actual cost of the Hema, ffs read literally any part of it besides the title.

TL;DR at the bottom in bold, italics and underlined.  For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, need a refresher, or don't think there IS a problem and need a little perspective:

Numbers are for the smallest clan size.
You need a total of 3,465 Detonite ampules to complete all the Chem Lab research.  That's over a dozen weapons and a few gear items.  
You need a total of 3,121 Fieldron samples to complete all the Energy Lab research which is also over a dozen weapons and several gear items.
You need 5,000 Mutagen samples to complete the research for a single weapon in the Bio Lab.  That weapon is the Hema.  Legend has it that they screwed up on the amount required and never changed it, and won't change it now because it would make the people that already researched it angry that they wasted their time and resources despite every comment from those people being how they wouldn't care and just didn't want anyone else to suffer through that grind.

 

That's not the extent of the problem though.  See, Detonite drops on 6 planets.  It's a fairly common drop.  Fieldron drops on 5 planets, also a pretty common drop.  Mutagen samples drop on 1 planet and the derelict, and you need keys to access the derelict.  Despite the keys being cheap, it's literally an extra resource cost and extra time and effort to access the only place where mutagen samples "reliably" drop.  It IS after all, raining Mutagen Samples on the Derelict.

 

To make it even worse, they are a much rarer drop than the other two resources.  With a full meta farming set up: a farming frame (I've tested them all extensively, they're all about the same for getting Mutagen.) a Smeeta, and BOTH plat-paid boosters, as well as the gear to kill quickly to increase drop chances per minute and only going to pick up drops at the edge of my camp spot when I had the smeeta buff, I barely get as many Mutagen samples from Orokin Derelict Survival as I would get Fieldron or Detonite from any other survival without a meta farming set up, spending the same amount of time in-mission. 

 

I've spent many, many hours farming Hive caches, and farming Octavia Neuroptics for myself and clan/alliance members and randos from recruit, as well as dedicated farming specifically for Mutagen samples with and without other people.  I have never had to farm for Detonite or Fieldron for research, have donated to many clans, done the majority of the research for my own clan, and I still have 5 digits of each left over.  That alone should honestly be argument enough for a drastic change to Mutagen samples.

 

The proposed, incredibly basic solution:

Increase the drop chance of Mutagen samples to that of the other resources.  This honestly might not even be necessary if you just take the main suggestion.

Put each faction's respective material in the drop tables for those enemies instead of the planet.  It makes zero sense that Infested in Dark Sectors, Invasions and Crossfire missions don't drop mutagen samples just because they aren't on the right planet.  Hell, you could leave them in the planet and just give them to the enemies as well.  But the enemy type should be what determines which resource is dropping, because that is the only way the cost will ever be doable without a completely ridiculous farm.

This also alleviates the "But I suffered so everyone should" problem people that I don't even think exist in any real numbers.  I farmed the Oxium for Vauban Prime when Oxium was still a huge pain to get, and I love that they made it easier for everyone to obtain the resource.  I still think the cost is too high there, but they at least made it easier to get, which is all I'm asking for here.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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DE already said they weren't changing the Hema requirements to "respect those who already farmed it"

you're out of luck I'm afraid. I already have it, a couple weeks in the derelict with Resource Chance Booster & Nekros, just on and off farming survival for 1-2 hours and I had enough. that was before they buffed the drop rate as well. I'd be fine with them making it easier for everyone else, but it's unlikely to happen.

The Orokin Derelict; It's RAINING Mutagen!™

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Just now, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

DE already said they weren't changing the Hema requirements to "respect those who already farmed it"

you're out of luck I'm afraid. I already have it, a couple weeks in the derelict with Resource Chance Booster & Nekros, just on and off farming survival for 1-2 hours and I had enough. that was before they buffed the drop rate as well. I'd be fine with them making it easier for everyone else, but it's unlikely to happen.

The Orokin Derelict; It's RAINING Mutagen!™

Did you not read what I put, or did you just not understand it?

They wouldn't be changing the Hema, they would be changing the way you get the resources that are the problem for it, the same way the cost for Vauban Prime was partially alleviated by increasing Oxium drops.  The stupid cost is still there, the resources just make it more bearable.  I literally even said this at the end of the post.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Legend has it that they screwed up on the amount required and never changed it, and won't change it now because it would make the people that already researched it angry that they wasted their time and resources despite every comment from those people being how they wouldn't care and just didn't want anyone else to suffer through that grind.

Started our clan January sometime and was shocked to need so much for the Hema. I figured that legend I'd never read before now- someone clearly added one too many zeroes, but as you can expect it wasn't done for quite some time. Only after dropping a double resource weekend did I buy both boosters, grab a clanmate with several meta farming builds to finally complete it and I have less mutagen samples than Vitus Essence to this day. I wouldn't mind if they lower it now for newer clans, trust and believe they could use the help- I've seen some awful clans. There's no more guidance for clan leadership than basic Warframe gamplay in that regard. Railjack has us wandering the dojos of others, now the public can see the work that was or wasn't put in there and the logic or lack thereof to its architectural build. A recent video I watched did mention DE would never change the Hema values, though. I just wish the Hema felt more worth it if that's the case.

All of this to say I agree, +1

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Did you not read what I put, or did you just not understand it?

They wouldn't be changing the Hema, they would be changing the way you get the resources that are the problem for it, the same way the cost for Vauban Prime was partially alleviated by increasing Oxium drops.  The stupid cost is still there, the resources just make it more bearable.  I literally even said this at the end of the post.

my bad, however my point that DE likely won't go back on it still stands, else they would have done it already. plus they're focused on Railjack now, which is the more current resource grind. I get it's frustrating, but there's not much we can do.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

EDIT: This post is literally not asking for a change

trust me im on ur side
and i did read what u wrote so i know its more about where it drops and not how many/often

but in the end think about it u are ok with FOR EXAMPLE > going to 1 boss to farm 1 warframe part instead of being able to drop same parts from different bosses?
but ur not ok with some resources dropping in one location while it could drop in multiple where they should < AGAIN FOR EXAMPLE

just think about it for a sec
in the end grind is grind no matter where and how

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2 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

but in the end think about it u are ok with FOR EXAMPLE > going to 1 boss to farm 1 warframe part instead of being able to drop same parts from different bosses?
but ur not ok with some resources dropping in one location while it could drop in multiple where they should < AGAIN FOR EXAMPLE

just think about it for a sec
in the end grind is grind no matter where and how

What are you even talking about with the bosses?  If infested dropped the infested faction material then you'd gather them any time you faced infested, rather than JUST when you went to farm for it specifically in 1 of 2 locations.  I have 31,854 Detonite and I've never farmed it specifically, and I've done a huge chunk of research for more than one clan and built everything that requires Detonite injectors with most of my injectors being made rather than coming from invasions.  If infested dropped their faction material anywhere there were infested instead of just 2 areas then you'd build enough for the research just through playing like you do with almost every other resource. 

 

 

2 hours ago, 844448 said:

Ever crossed your mind to loot those crates and lockers? I got most of my mutagen from there and I finished hema most if not all of the mutagen by myself just from strolling with nezha looting the place solo

Ever crossed your mind to not make assumptions about the way other people play so that you can be condescending to them?  I loot the majority of the map and run a meta farming build.  I'm as efficient as possible.  I had a run with multiple smeeta buffs, which you can't count on, with both boosters on and I got 150ish samples in 40 minutes.  That's a 20+ hour farm for the research materials for one weapon, and that's doing the math using one of the best runs I've had.  For one weapon.

I know they aren't going to change the cost of the weapon because they refuse to admit when they're wrong.  Letting infested drop their faction material regardless of planet would provide enough of a boost in passive gain that nothing else would have to change though.  Yet everyone wants to straight up ignore everything I already wrote down to tell me it's fine, nothing is wrong, ignore the hard numbers, just accept the suck, don't even bother with feedback or suggestions.

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Did it with my co-founder of my clan last weekend with me running Nekros max desecrate with a crit kripath, him with a Speedva and both of us with boosters and smeetas. It's miserable if you don't have a consistent kavat buff doing Derilict Survival. In about 15 minutes, which seems to be the sweet spot for rinsing and repeating, we would get between us 200-300 mutagen. It took a lot of trial and error with us getting about 500-600 after an hour.That being said we finished farming the 5000 mutagen mass(for a ghost clan) in 6 hours which is super doable. If you think that the droprates are too low, idk bruh farm it up. Making a clan shouldn't be a cakewalk and it rewards people who are patient and willing to work with others long term. Really if you're doing hema at anything above ghost clan it's kind of a clown moment for not doing all research at ghost, again patience.

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3 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

What are you even talking about with the bosses?  If infested dropped the infested faction material then you'd gather them any time you faced infested, rather than JUST when you went to farm for it specifically in 1 of 2 locations.  I have 31,854 Detonite and I've never farmed it specifically, and I've done a huge chunk of research for more than one clan and built everything that requires Detonite injectors with most of my injectors being made rather than coming from invasions.  If infested dropped their faction material anywhere there were infested instead of just 2 areas then you'd build enough for the research just through playing like you do with almost every other resource. 

Correct me if im wrong
1 - problem here is not about cost of hema but where resources for it drops
2 - ur idea is to make resource for it drop in more places (im aware u mean to drop it from proper enemies like it should)
so u gather that resources just by casual playing and not by farming it with such a pain

now what i state is that im on ur side trust me and u are 100% right here
but JUST THINK ABOUT IT

FOR EXAMPLE u need to get trinity (or just want it like hema) it drops from ambulas assassination
not enough the fight is time gated u got RNG thrown into the mix but whatever in the end farming trinity will most likely devour allot of time

and now lets think about it
u need to go farm resources for hema in FEW specific locations and not that it just drop in many different places like it should - is bad and is not ok in ur eyes
but fact that u can get FOR EXAMPLE trinity only in 1 specific location ONLY 1 which in most cases will make u waste more time farming it than u would farm resources for hema - is ok with u? 

i mean look about what u are complaining here
u propose a fix for 1 thing where other stuff have exact same problem or even worse like FOR EXAMPLE color pigment (i dont remember which but 2 ones u get from cetus tusk enemies and pilots my god whai!?) should they drop in more places?
so in the end yes u are right about resources drop location or more likely source of them for hema researching for example
but u have way worse drop location and requirements for other stuff but u choose only to focus on hema problem
do u now get what i mean?

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5 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

1KzWTnL.jpg

Funny how they have no such qualms when it comes to swinging the nerfhammer...

This I think is perhaps the most apt illustration of just how silly the "respect" argument is: not only is it an inconsistent argument for DE to make, given the many times they've rebalanced content and toned down the grind after people suffered through it (we're getting this for Railjack now too!), the argument itself is just plain wrong. Nobody is being "respected" by making more people suffer through a notoriously poorly-designed and balanced grind, and I've yet to see any sizeable number of players who have completed the Hema and actively opposed reductions to its research cost (I myself did the entire grind myself for my one-man-clan years ago, which is precisely what's motivating me to ask for a reduction in cost for everyone else). This is just one of those issues where someone at DE has decided to plant their feet and not budge on, and given that there are bigger fish to fry, it is unfortunately unlikely that this will change anytime soon.

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12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I've yet to see any sizeable number of players who have completed the Hema and actively opposed reductions to its research cost (I myself did the entire grind myself for my one-man-clan years ago, which is precisely what's motivating me to ask for a reduction in cost for everyone else).

My thoughts exactly. DE's position boils down to "we want to appease selfish people who can't stand the thought that others won't have to suffer as they did".

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is just one of those issues where someone at DE has decided to plant their feet and not budge on, and given that there are bigger fish to fry, it is unfortunately unlikely that this will change anytime soon.

Yeah, it makes me sad to see the amount of damage a single stubborn dev can do to a game. Same with a lot of other things. Univac comes to mind...

Edited by SordidDreams
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What they need to do is get the Mutagen Stockpile into the game just as they did for all the other single drop resources in the game. I enjoy finding the Orokin Cells and Argon Pigaments and such to scan them....but Mutagen Samples have nothing to scan? No big culture? 

And there is a huge difference between respecting those who did the work and are still alive compared to those who died for something tragic. It's a freaking video game that people play. Some people enjoy creating things in the game while others want things the fastest way with the least work. The Hema is something that you can put in for the clan or buy it straight up. It has been done by many and yet, still some will cry about it. It's more akin to people that climbed Pikes Peak with their own hands and feet and the new generations getting in the cable car to get to the top nowadays. 

Until DE gives the big bundle of Mutagen Sample, we gotta keep opening lockers and smashing enemies and containers. Who knows.....they may give us something else to use them in in the future.

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The problem I find with your suggestion is that it removes ability of farming certain other resources that skip irritating enemies - namely - pretty much anything worth farming on higher corpus planets (everyone loves those nullies, right?) Dark Sectors as it is allows to farm those resources without having to bother with nullies.

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Like... I don't think 5,000 Mutagen Samples is too high, for a clan.  I'm sitting on 1,620 through no exceptional effort.  Just me.

That said, the Hema really needs to be revisited because it's a really neat gun with a really neat design, but it's spectacularly underwhelming, and its material and research costs compounds all of it.

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I think the cost was so high because it is more or less a resource dump + calculation error. Not many things require the samples themselves, and ever since Nova Sys and Ember BP were vaulted, the derelict just kinda........ existed until Octavia. There was a large player base that had x9,000 mutagen samples from old prime part farms and nothing to use them on. 
 

Is that fair to people who didn’t play during the 80+ wave ODD farms of the day?-no. Is DE going to change it? Nope. 

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The thing is, it's also not very good.  I've tried to make this weapon worth the time, I've even got a decent Riven for it.  The problem is that it is just underwhelming and not as good as other options.  I know it will probably be a thorn in the side of completionists, but honestly it is not worth wasting the the time to farm this weapon unless it is literally the last thing you need to do.

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After the backlash, DE:

b46.jpg

After all the feedback and ideas to move some of the derelict 'rain' to other infested locations... Nothing. It's been 3 years.

Rebecca said it herself on a stream at the time. Sometimes we have to make decisions like a company. Lo-and-behold it's one of the most purchased weapons. They all clapped to that as well.

6191ee42-4048-11e8-b6d9-57447a4b43e5_1280x720_202430.jpg?itok=DayFZzUB

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11 hours ago, Elenortirie said:

The problem I find with your suggestion is that it removes ability of farming certain other resources that skip irritating enemies - namely - pretty much anything worth farming on higher corpus planets (everyone loves those nullies, right?) Dark Sectors as it is allows to farm those resources without having to bother with nullies.

How?  How does putting JUST the enemy faction material in the faction enemy's drop table prevent you from farming cells on Ceres dark sector missions?

The [DE]fenders are really coming out of the woodworks for this thread too, everyone saying how "it's not an issue".  It literally takes more faction materials to research ONE goddamn weapon than it does for the ENTIRE chem or energy lab.  How does that look balanced to any of you?  I'm not even asking that they change the cost because DE is so deaf to feedback because of all the shills showing up telling them how good a job they did with BS like this, I'm just asking for a very minor change in how the resources drop so that you passively gain the materials like nearly every other #*!%ing material in the game.  How does a faction dropping their faction material instead of a different faction's material not make sense?  

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