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DE's worst idea ever: Weapons / RJ parts with random stats


tomrair
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I mean, seriously - who thought of that? Giving Kuva weapons and Railjack parts random stats just serves one purpose: to extend the grind in an already grindy game.

My suspicion is that this is exactly why DE put them into the game in the first place: If they made it harder for players to farm new items, they could keep us busy longer with just a moderate amount of new content. This way DE could buy themselves some apparently much-needed additional development time. The background behind all of this probably being that DE promised all those grandiose things at Tennocon, but then found out that they were much harder to implement than they'd originally thought, so now they're caught between the high expectations they've roused and the technical difficulties of actually putting all this stuff into working gamecode. Remember what Steve said at his TC presentation, that they didn't just want to add more stuff, but to connect everything? And now, after 6 months, what do we have? Both Kuva Liches and Railjack are the same old type of unconnected additions, just like Archwing, Lunaro, PoE etc. etc. This "connecting" thing that Steve talked about simply hasn't happened.

But be this as it may - if DE needs more time, fine, as long as they're honest about it. But the random stat items are an abomination and need to go asap. DE, take them out of the game and give Kuva weapons and Railjack parts fixed stats instead.

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb tomrair:

I mean, seriously - who thought of that?

Not DE, it's a design literally decades old. Some games even proudly advertise this, like the Borderlands series.

There are also very many players who greatly enjoy rivens,which are the very same.

As for my personal opinion, I actually prefer randomised weapons over grinding resources.

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The issue isn't the randomization, it is that far too often the components can be worse than a stock research version.

If they actually tighten up the stat ranges a bit this could be a good way to keep replay value, but currently the stats on several things (mainly Vidar and Levan components with their 2% drop rates) have too high a chance of being uselessly bad.

RNG loot isn't a bad thing on its own, it is just the poor implementation that is causing the issues.

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2 hours ago, tomrair said:

I mean, seriously - who thought of that? Giving Kuva weapons and Railjack parts random stats just serves one purpose: to extend the grind in an already grindy game.

Then you must really love Rivens.

If we are talking about worst ideas in general, I would say "open worlds".

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1 hour ago, slotschii said:

the advantage borderlands has tho is that you just get a S#&$ load of weapons. here you have a 2% chance and then the stats might even be lower than stock items you can outright buy from the dojo. imho they should bump up the drop chance of components after a mission or give us more in-mission drops (or at least any in-mission drops for vidar and lavan components).

Yeah, DE really have chosen the worst of both worlds. As a personal preference I prefer fixed item stats like what we've had in Warframe for years. However, I CAN play games with randomised loot and still enjoy them to a great extent, as long as I get plenty of gear with plenty of rolls so I can feel like I'm playing the long game. Instead, DE have taken the long, boring, massive grind from fixed item stats and then just made the stats random. So instead of walking away from a mission with 15-20 reactors and hoping at least a couple might be good, I walk away with NO reactors and have to repeat it over and over again just to GET one. And once I get one, THEN I have to hope it's actually good - which it usually isn't, so tough S#&$ try again.

A version of Warframe where everything is Rivens is a nightmare scenario. It's a horrifyingly grim view of the future. Yes, some people enjoy Rivens despite them being slow to earn, likely to be S#&$ and very expensive but the rest of us can generally ignore the whole system and be fine. This doesn't work when new content is ALL RNG, and seemingly will be for the foreseeable future. Randomness is no longer that really expensive grindy thing you do if you want an extra edge - it's the status quo, which is why you're seeing a lot more people complain about it.

Long story short is this: If DE want everything to have RNG stat rolls, then they need to give us a LOT more items and give us some meaningful salvage/trade-in currency option for getting rid of them. You can't have RNG loot AND hard-to-get loot, because you're just wasting people's time at that point.

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35 minutes ago, slotschii said:

best thing would be the ability to craft your own with the mats from trashing after trashing a whole lot of them as a kind of bad luck protection (which we literally have NOWHERE in this game)

Yeah, some kind of "standard lootbox currency" trade-in for bad rolls wouldn't be a bad idea, either. Trash bad drops for some unique shared resource, use that to craft new gear at a mark-up. It's basically what Diablo 3 did. Except Diablo 3 also let you re-roll random stats 🙂

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RNG is fine but needs to have a way to be offset. Fusing bad reactors together over and over to create a better roll would be my preference. Both liches and empyrean have adopted this philosophy that walking away from a few hours of play time with absolutely nothing of value is ok.

Edited by Skaleek
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The random stats are not so bad as the random capacity.  Random stats on weapons is completely different than random stats on a reactor.  This fundamentally changes Warframe as a game.  

Players can no longer find a guide online and work towards a build like they can for thier favorite Warframe with 30 capacity + 30 with reactor + aura mod capacity.  With a Warframe, the constraint is the same for all players, with railjack, everyone has a different box to play in.  

It is equal to my Excal Warframe having 70 capacity and yours, that you got the same way and played for 5 months longer, only has 25 capacity.  

RNG STATS ON REACTOR IS WORST IDEA IMPLEMENTED IN 2019-2020

That's definately a true statement!  It kills creativity, it kills goals to work towards, it makes the min/max impossible player to player, and puts a stain on an otherwise cool game mode.  

The best solution I have heard is to give 2 avionics points for each upgrade to grid so by time all done, you get 90 capacity. 

The different manufacturers can offer more flux versus more damage to artillery, or more flux versus more speed.  All manufacturers can have random bonuses (like shield recharge when clocked, bonus shields in ship, etc.) with perhaps a few desirable ones tied to one manufacturer or the other.  So a zetki reactor may be high flux with some rare nice bonus on it (that is nice but not game changing).  

I'm ok with the reactor having random bonuses, but never, under any circumstances, tie capacity and progress to randomness!

I'd also prefer weapons have bonuses that are not just damage increases.  Something that gives bonus for an action (shooting engine, no overheat if stay on target, etc.).  

I'd rather they have multiple parts with known stats we can hunt.  RNG stats in Warframe sucks.

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6 hours ago, Skaleek said:

RNG is fine but needs to have a way to be offset. Fusing bad reactors together over and over to create a better roll would be my preference. Both liches and empyrean have adopted this philosophy that walking away from a few hours of play time with absolutely nothing of value is ok.

That would be a good first step and - realistically speaking - the most we can hope for, I think. Call it "scrap for parts," where you salvage pieces from a few broken item to cobble together a single working item. Maybe let it work only on salvaged pieces before they're repaired, if it HAS to be annoyingly limited. The latest patch supposedly improved drop rates if I'm reading it right so MAYBE that'll help? But either way, pairing RNG stat rolls with low drop rates is a recipe for frustration.

 

5 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

The random stats are not so bad as the random capacity.  Random stats on weapons is completely different than random stats on a reactor.  This fundamentally changes Warframe as a game.  

And yes, there's also that. Like I said - I can live with random weapon stats if need be, even if it does mean normalising unjustified grind. Mod capacity should never be one of those random stats, however. It's so fundamental to our builds and crucially important as to trump quite literally every other consideration. Give everyone the same mod capacity, let us upgrade it in some other, deterministic fashion if you really want to and let reactors do something else, instead.

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Random avionic capacity, that can roll lower than on standard items combined with abysmal drop rates... It's just a flat out progression blocker. What to do with some cool battle avionic or a ship upgrade if you are unable to put it in? I got extremely lucky on my very first veil mission to drop a Lavan reactor with 64 capacity. I played a ton of missions since then, but never got anything better so far (Vidar reactors are a fairy tale, they don't exist in reality imo). My ship is still the best in our clan, because all other clanmates are still forced to play with the Mk III dojo reactor (and the clanmate that accompanied me on my first veil run got his Lavan reactor with a low roll...). This needs to be changed. Gating core progression behind RNG walls will kill the whole gamemode before it's even properly fixed.

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On 2020-01-09 at 10:07 AM, tomrair said:

I mean, seriously - who thought of that?

I can honestly say that this type of rng is absolutely not a bad idea. It is actually a good concept that many other games use. (as other people stated here too)

The real problem here is that they locked the good things behind such a ridiculus rng layered system, that it is absolutely impossible to get what you want. 

Yes I did the math. If you want one of the 2% dropchance things in the veil and you play one mission per day... You gotta play for 87 YEARS to get the best version. 

87 YEARS!!!

That is the problem. If the fix the droprates it will actually be a great system, but currently it is AWFUL, I will agree with that 😉 

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On 2020-01-09 at 5:40 AM, slotschii said:

the advantage borderlands has tho is that you just get a S#&$ load of weapons. here you have a 2% chance and then the stats might even be lower than stock items you can outright buy from the dojo. imho they should bump up the drop chance of components after a mission or give us more in-mission drops (or at least any in-mission drops for vidar and lavan components).

Not only that:

Borderlands the weapons are pre-built. No resource farming, no waiting for build times - you can pick them up and use them IMMEDIATELY in the mission and if you don't like it, drop it and pick up what you just dropped.

Also, even though they are random, the actual variety is fairly low - you get a sniper and there are maybe two significant variants - multishot and non multishot. Sure you can pick up to non multishot and they will be marginally different, but in practice there is not the crazy spread.  And the perks are just that - nice to have perks that maybe complement a specific character.

and character capacity is not limited by RNG stats. you level it up and boom you are good to go.

 

 

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The reactor needs to be modeable, fusionable, upgradeable! Whatever! Fair and square!

I love rivens and they give some of my weapons the final touch I want them to have. You also can roll them to your hearts contents or until you burn out on endlesss kuva survival. But rivens are optional. You can love them or leave them!

But if we would get weapon blueprints or warframe blueprints with random mod capacity... that would genuinely suck! Would it not?

Why is it a good idea to have the most important RJ component the reactor behave this way? Limiting all your options at making a decent build for your otherwise moist paper Railjack? Have an unrolleable riven at the core of your RJ, why? 

It shuts players out of content. Makes it impossible for them to try out tactical or battle avionics. I can live with randomised stats on all other components, but the lottery for mod capacity/avionics capacity feels insulting and over all really bad.

 

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So we poured all these resources into the railjack constuction just to be flying a slot machine through space?

Unsatisfying! This could be so much better! DE you can do better! You know it! We know it!

Edited by (PS4)PePSchaepp
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On 2020-01-09 at 10:51 AM, Vharu said:

Lets be honest.... It's a bad idea until you have all the good stuff on your railjack... then it becomes like "I earned my stuff - all you others just need to grind more".

I am bias though because I have Vidar reactor with total capacity of 127, ship does 750 m/s speed, 5000 armor, 6000 hull, Vidar cryo's with +51% damage, void hole, predator, section d.... all the works... my ship is awesome. And I sure everyone still struggling with their Railjack would love reading all this XD

I've got my +59.8/+0.19 Vidar engines. They're the only useful part that I've found.

I would not even be slightly displeased if every single Vidar engine were changed to have those stats.

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