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Actual Auction house is what we need

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb Marvelous_A:

Well if you are that busy how about just pay for plat? 

Trading in Warframe involves premium currency. Why would devs introduce a way for people to passively earn plat without doing anything? To hurt their plat sale statistic?

That makes no sense. Plat does not come from nowhere, and will be spend in the end on market items. That means by the dropping prices that have already occured, the people will more likely buy plat, because more people are willing to trade. The only margin that will be hurt, are the players with the free plat model.

This is actually benefiting the game, because DE would get more income.

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52 minutes ago, Mest_Gryder said:

 

That makes no sense. Plat does not come from nowhere, and will be spend in the end on market items. That means by the dropping prices that have already occured, the people will more likely buy plat, because more people are willing to trade. The only margin that will be hurt, are the players with the free plat model.

This is actually benefiting the game, because DE would get more income.

Dropping prices mean with every plat bundle bought people can get more stuff with the same amount of plat. They won't need to buy plat as frequently as before. No. It doesn't benefit the devs.

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Dropping prices are inavitable. When you want to hinder that, you may need a minimum price that is not allowed to be undercut. That is something that will never happen.

 

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Marvelous_A:

Dropping prices mean with every plat bundle bought people can get more stuff with the same amount of plat. They won't need to buy plat as frequently as before. No. It doesn't benefit the devs.

what do you mean, can get more stuff with the same amount of plat? I did talk about the prime junk and not official market prices.
I did not say, market stuff will get cheaper, hence there will be more frequent purchase of plat. People do not buy plat to buy prime junk, lol.
They spend it mostly for booster, forma, deluxe skins, decoration and rivens.
When you can't get so much plat like before for primed stuff or mods which you sell, then you are depending on plat purchases.

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6 hours ago, Mest_Gryder said:

Dropping prices are inavitable. When you want to hinder that, you may need a minimum price that is not allowed to be undercut. That is something that will never happen.

 

what do you mean, can get more stuff with the same amount of plat? I did talk about the prime junk and not official market prices.
I did not say, market stuff will get cheaper, hence there will be more frequent purchase of plat. People do not buy plat to buy prime junk, lol.
They spend it mostly for booster, forma, deluxe skins, decoration and rivens.
When you can't get so much plat like before for primed stuff or mods which you sell, then you are depending on plat purchases.

No. Just no. 

They explained it in simple terms. Go back and read what they wrote and just think about it for a little while. Please. 

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If there was an auction system where you could put an item up with a starting bid and a buy-out price, it would make it much easier for new players to get into the trading game, let them buy a few inventory slots to make the game less intimidating, and also give veteran players more motivation to buy plat because it's less of a hassle to spend plat.  It could even work for trades — the person initiating the trade could put up the item they have, select the item they want to trade for, and other players could search for trades they're interested in.

I almost stopped playing Warframe in the first week because the weapon and frame slot limitations were stifling.  A lot of the people I talk to who bounced off Warframe said that was the reason.  I know DE has to make money, and I know you don't have to get super far into the game before you can make plat by trading prime parts or ayatan statues, but the mechanics of how trading works creates a huge barrier for new players.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

No. Just no. 

They explained it in simple terms. Go back and read what they wrote and just think about it for a little while. Please. 

no, just no.

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Careful, you're going to get flooded with a lot of salty replies who are going to insist 'Warframe doesn't need an auction house of any kind', because they're content with the janky advertising spam that goes on in Trade Chat. Just a heads up.

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DE has stated several times that there will be NO auction house in Warframe. Here’s a few reasons why they won’t:

It incentivises lazy trading, with no pushing for lower prices, no actively looking at true trading chat to get the best deal, just scrolling through something like warframe market and selecting trade. 

This would hurt new players, as it means that they will need to drop their prices, meaning less play to get skits, forma, potatoes, ect. With hundreds of advertisements for prime junk up, people will drop prices to stay competitive. That means you will see less of 12p full trade, and start seeing 6, 5, 4. That’s 1/3 the plat, meaning 1/3 the slots.

It would ruin the trading community. As stupid as they may or may not be, as scummy as they may or may not be, they are also very vocal. It’s not just a thing DE can change (mhm... trials) as there is a big following.

So lazy trading, lower prices and a pissed off community? Not very likely tbh.

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We also have Nightwave, which is great for newer players as the normal weekly challenges can be done by them with a bit of determination. I’m all for allowing other ways to get slots rather than play, it changing the way people play.

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Yes, that's a core problem with the trade system we have now but I doubt anything will be done to make it new user friendly. I really wish something to be done to it

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53 minutes ago, 2ndPersonPlural said:

If there was an auction system where you could put an item up with a starting bid and a buy-out price, it would make it much easier for new players to get into the trading game, let them buy a few inventory slots to make the game less intimidating, and also give veteran players more motivation to buy plat because it's less of a hassle to spend plat.  It could even work for trades — the person initiating the trade could put up the item they have, select the item they want to trade for, and other players could search for trades they're interested in.

... I didn't get it.

No, I'm just saying "I didn't get it" to avoid insulting your face with my bluntness because, apparently, one does get penalties for it.

So~, you should probably explain it better so I can attempt at understanding what you're trying to say, so that I can give a reply that is relatively decent.

53 minutes ago, 2ndPersonPlural said:

I almost stopped playing Warframe in the first week because the weapon and frame slot limitations were stifling.

Been playing Warframe since U7, and I had no problems with inventory slots... Maybe you should be more selective about what you want to keep.

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2 minutes ago, Echoes said:

Yes, that's a core problem with the trade system we have now but I doubt anything will be done to make it new user friendly. I really wish something to be done to it

What’s the core problem? It’s hard to get into?

Just say “WTS Prime Junk 12p” and wait for a pm, it’s not hard. It just takes time, which goes down once you get access to more expensive items like full warframe sets, arcanes, ect which can go from a hundred plat to a couple thousand!

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48 minutes ago, Mest_Gryder said:

no, just no.

Refusing to read and consider what people have already explained means that you'll never understand why what you are saying is wrong and there's no point in further explaining anything to you. 

Have a great day anyway, Tenno. 

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auction house DE will charge you 10% of the platinum in the sold item! 

no ty go to warframe market!

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Refusing to read and consider what people have already explained means that you'll never understand why what you are saying is wrong and there's no point in further explaining anything to you. 

Have a great day anyway, Tenno. 

and do you think arrogance, will lead to a better result?
They made their point and I made mine. Isn't that a bit lazy to not being able to explain anything in your own words in a debate? Is it my job or your job to explain an idea?
Just because I have another opinion, does not mean that I did not read them, maybe I have missunderstood them, but how high is the possibility by countless re-reading of an opinion will change the understanding of something that I MAYBE have missunderstood?

Yeah have a nice day, too. That is ridiculous.

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On 2020-01-09 at 11:26 AM, TheGuyver said:

Yeah sure, so people can sit there for hours and hours and hours on end undercutting people by 1 plat at a time and tanking the hell out of any sort of market. Never mind the people who would want it on the mobile app, which after playing wow, is such a cancerous thing. 

We don't need an auction house, and we'll never get an auction house. The playerbase will drive the price of everything down to the bare minimum and then some and platinum would be virtually worthless outside of market only items. 

sometimes it a good thing, other times it can be bad. I can at least say using wow is a good example because i have in fact used that auction house back in wraith of the litch king and completely crashed the market for saronite ore a few years back just because i was tired of seeing the people selling stacks for high amounts, the result from that was the gold farmers pulled thier stacks, then set them in at prices under mine and the whole thing tanked for the server i was on, was a fun experiment to put into action.

But stuff like that can also happen here which is why it can be both good and bad, the good might be for people who like lower prices but at the same time people who want to profit can buy low then repost to sell high and just create an overall mess, take the example of what i did up above.

In the end while i respsect the idea of adding something like this, the big issue is it can create probably a far more frustrating situation and make things even harder than what we have now with trade chat, for now if i know what i want i use the chat filter to keep an eye out for what im looking for when i want to sell or trade.

big difference to keep in mind here as well is for both WOW and star treck online as the original poster made is the credits and gold were all completely game generated, for Warframe the big issue is all the platinum is generated by players spending real money so making a in game aution house in this case is a far more risky situation for all parties involved as that would invite "gold farmers" even more into this game would be the most logical argument i can see to keep this from happening.

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vor 18 Minuten schrieb Daskrieg:

sometimes it a good thing, other times it can be bad. I can at least say using wow is a good example because i have in fact used that auction house back in wraith of the litch king and completely crashed the market for saronite ore a few years back just because i was tired of seeing the people selling stacks for high amounts, the result from that was the gold farmers pulled thier stacks, then set them in at prices under mine and the whole thing tanked for the server i was on, was a fun experiment to put into action.

But stuff like that can also happen here which is why it can be both good and bad, the good might be for people who like lower prices but at the same time people who want to profit can buy low then repost to sell high and just create an overall mess, take the example of what i did up above.

In the end while i respsect the idea of adding something like this, the big issue is it can create probably a far more frustrating situation and make things even harder than what we have now with trade chat, for now if i know what i want i use the chat filter to keep an eye out for what im looking for when i want to sell or trade.

big difference to keep in mind here as well is for both WOW and star treck online as the original poster made is the credits and gold were all completely game generated, for Warframe the big issue is all the platinum is generated by players spending real money so making a in game aution house in this case is a far more risky situation for all parties involved as that would invite "gold farmers" even more into this game would be the most logical argument i can see to keep this from happening.

the good thing is, we are already limited by the amount of items we can trade on a day. And there are still creative ways  to tweak a better trading function. It does not need to be an afk-buy-my-merch-shop. There have been always good ways to make things fair and right, like Blade & Soul I think made a nice match making and trading system.

But like I already said, I would be glad if there would be a button to repeat the previous ad with all the linked items/rivens. Otherwise I feel like the need to make a trading script to take that part, to repeat offerings like a madman.

As soon as someone makes a trading or auto-it script to repeat trading messages, the one individual has an advantage.

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2 hours ago, Mest_Gryder said:

and do you think arrogance, will lead to a better result?
They made their point and I made mine. Isn't that a bit lazy to not being able to explain anything in your own words in a debate? Is it my job or your job to explain an idea?
Just because I have another opinion, does not mean that I did not read them, maybe I have missunderstood them, but how high is the possibility by countless re-reading of an opinion will change the understanding of something that I MAYBE have missunderstood?

Yeah have a nice day, too. That is ridicolous.

Sigh. 

 

No. They posted an obvious fact. You posted an opinion. Your opinion is not a valid point, especially because you seem to have based it on a flawed assumption. 

They explained that dropping prices means that people will have a greater buying power, for the same amount spent. This is not something that can be considered questionable. 

You failed to understand that most items in this game a single purchase items. Once you own it, demand for the same item becomes zero. It's true that a few items are multiple purchase items, but the vast majority aren't. 

Also:

12 hours ago, Mest_Gryder said:

People do not buy plat to buy prime junk, lol.

☝️ That's just silly of you. People buy plat to buy whatever they want. Your claim is nonsensical. 

 

In your case I doubt rereading would ever have changed your mind, because what they wrote was simple enough for anyone who has the capacity and inclination to think about what they said and that's why I said that explaining it to you again is pointless, you haven't displayed either. 

And the word that you tried to use seems to be "ridiculous", not whatever you wrote. If you are going to try to insult, it's usually best not to screw it up. 

Enjoy your weekend, Tenno. 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

dropping prices means that people will have a greater buying power, for the same amount spent

This is flat-out false, by the way. I am shocked by how many people fail to understand this simple point: that for someone who buys, there must be someone else who is selling, and the way prices fluctuate will impact both, not just the buyer.

Prices being left to the whims of the system being proposed here (permanent market with items for sale, akin to warframe.market, but regulated by auction) will result in prices drastically dropping: how do I know this? Because that is the common mindset of people who lack proper understanding of how economy works: for such people, I.E. the absolute majority of players of a game like this (I don't expect everyone to have studied the ins and outs of the current economy as part of their university curriculum, like I have), the thing is simple... "If I want to sell an item for which there's a lot of offer but very low demand, I'll just sell it for less than everyone else". After all, if everyone is selling for 10 and I sell for 5, I will end up being at the top of the list, so should a rare buyer actually show up chances are they will buy from me, right?

However, this is a very dangerous mindset: after all, if you're selling it for five, what's stopping the next guy from selling it for three? Or for two? Or for one? And this is a mentality that's encouraged even more by the presence of auctions, since those tend to lull sellers into a false sense of security ("even if I sell this for one, it will eventually go up when people start to bid"). But the trap lies in the fact that the people who think on a scale this small are those who have small things to sell: fairly common prime parts, syndicate mods, that kinda stuff. This is a problem, because these things are things MOST PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE, meaning not many people will bid for them: how do I know? Simple: it's because if this was not the case, then selling that kinda stuff would be easy and take limited effort, and if that was the case then we wouldn't be here having this conversation at all. You people are here to complain about how selling low-end stuff is difficult, and you fail to realize WHY it's difficult.

It's difficult because the market is oversaturated. And oversaturated market means low demand. High offer + low demand + people naively attempting to out-cheap each other = prices drastically drop. Now, you seem to be of the idea that such would be a good thing: stuff is cheap, one can more easily buy it! However, that is a blatant mistake: sure, you're spending less when you're buying, but YOU'RE ALSO MAKING LESS WHEN YOU'RE SELLING. But why, you may ask, does it matter? After all, if I both earn less when selling and spend less when buying, then it means that this system pretty much counterbalances itself, right?

Wrong. The system does not counterbalance itself. Why? Because DE has made it perfectly clear that they don't endorse, in any way shape or form, the very idea of players buying and selling stuff from one another... Which means that the stuff DE sells on its own store, most of which you NEED to buy in order to progress in the game, WILL STILL COST THE SAME NO MATTER HOW LOW THE PRICES OF PRIME PARTS DROP. Need two more weapon slots? That's 12 plat. Need a warframe slot? That's 20 plat. Need an affinity booster? That's 80 plat. Sure, the game is MEANT to be free, meaning that you're MEANT to be able to see to these mandatory expenses just by making plat off of your normal gameplay experience, but with prices dropping so low how are you supposed to do that? "Normal gameplay experience", especially for newcomers, means doing star chart, sometimes venturing into open world content, rarely doing some fissures: sorties, arbitrations and high-end farming are well out of reach still. Meaning, such people have AT MOST a dozen spare prime pieces lying around, maybe a syndicate mod or two: all things that sell for next to nothing, in the extreme situation promoted by auctions which we've been analyzing so far. Meaning that, throughout their "normal gameplay experience", these people will barely be able to earn the plat for two weapon slots: anything else they need, they have no choice but to buy with real money.

Thus, a situation where low-end items are dirt-cheap is a situation where players, especially new ones, are forced to spend MORE real money in the game. And all the while, high-end items (rivens, arcanes, vaulted things) are being monopolized by hoarders, who are free to set for them astronomical prices which then, since it's an auction, will go EVEN HIGHER, because those are the things everyone want, and so many are going to bid for them. Meaning, those things are now effectively impossible to acquire for the new-ish players who're stuck trading low-end stuff unless, again, they decide to spend A LOT of real money for it. Or grind for it, but if people were willing to just wait out the grind and never take the shortcut of buying stuff, then we wouldn't be having this conversation to begin with, right? 

So this right here, this is the fatal flaw in the "if things cost less then I have to spend less real money on them" logic. A fatal flaw that makes a permanent market system a potentially destructive mechanism for newcomers, who'll find themselves stuck into a loop where they have to fork out more and more money in order to make any progress. And regulating it by auction will only make this worse, because auctions are, by their nature, an extremely volatile, easy to exploit system.

There you have it. You said you wanted facts: I gave you some. 

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1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

This is flat-out false, by the way. I am shocked by how many people fail to understand this simple point: that for someone who buys, there must be someone else who is selling, and the way prices fluctuate will impact both, not just the buyer.

Sigh. 

Have you ever wondered about why you see such ridiculously high initial prices for player traded items on PC? Or why so many items go for substantially less on console? 

It's because we don't get plat discounts. We have to buy it at full cost, so there's less plat in our system. Our plat is stronger in value than PC plat because of this.

Dropping prices on the DE controlled market, would mean that we can buy more items for the same amount of plat. Dropping prices in player trade means the same thing for those of us who have bought plat. Dropping prices of the packages would mean that while both the prices in the DE market and player trade may be constant, less money buys the same amount of plat, which makes it so we can buy less plat overall and so less real money goes into DE's pockets at the end of the month. 

Which of these do you want to contest? 

1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

However, this is a very dangerous mindset: after all, if you're selling it for five, what's stopping the next guy from selling it for three? Or for two? Or for one? And this is a mentality that's encouraged even more by the presence of auctions, since those tend to lull sellers into a false sense of security ("even if I sell this for one, it will eventually go up when people start to bid"). But the trap lies in the fact that the people who think on a scale this small are those who have small things to sell: fairly common prime parts, syndicate mods, that kinda stuff. This is a problem, because these things are things MOST PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE, meaning not many people will bid for them: how do I know? Simple: it's because if this was not the case, then selling that kinda stuff would be easy and take limited effort, and if that was the case then we wouldn't be here having this conversation at all. You people are here to complain about how selling low-end stuff is difficult, and you fail to realize WHY it's difficult.

It's difficult because the market is oversaturated. And oversaturated market means low demand. High offer + low demand + people naively attempting to out-cheap each other = prices drastically drop. Now, you seem to be of the idea that such would be a good thing: stuff is cheap, one can more easily buy it! However, that is a blatant mistake: sure, you're spending less when you're buying, but YOU'RE ALSO MAKING LESS WHEN YOU'RE SELLING. But why, you may ask, does it matter? After all, if I both earn less when selling and spend less when buying, then it means that this system pretty much counterbalances itself, right?

Congratulations you've discovered "the Tragedy of the Commons". I'd offer you a cookie for the achievement, but I honestly don't feel like bothering. This race to zero is a phenomenon we see played out regularly in warframe.

And the answer is no. The system doesn't counterbalance itself. It eventually leads to a catastrophic failure without a system of checks and balances. The only people who won't suffer are the ones who typically buy plat, and will find themselves to be extremely wealthy with respect to the player traded item prices, and the people trading exceedingly rare items like rivens. 

It's all caused by a simple case of infinite supply of farmed items, and extremely limited demand. And in this game, for the majority of the player traded items, there's never going to be a recurring demand from those who bought the item in the first place. 

Now in case you were wondering none of the above changes a single thing about what I wrote. I didn't say that a drop in prices on the player market won't reduce our earning power. And no, your assumption that more new players will need to buy plat to compensate for the reduction in earnings is a bad one. The available data for f2p games suggests that the vast majority of people never spend a dime. What do you suppose this means? 

1 hour ago, TearsOfTomorrow said:

So this right here, this is the fatal flaw in the "if things cost less then I have to spend less real money on them" logic. A fatal flaw that makes a permanent market system a potentially destructive mechanism for newcomers, who'll find themselves stuck into a loop where they have to fork out more and more money in order to make any progress. And regulating it by auction will only make this worse, because auctions are, by their nature, an extremely volatile, easy to exploit system.

There you have it. You said you wanted facts: I gave you some. 

I do wish people would learn to read more carefully. 

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Which of these do you want to contest? 

The fact that neither this

30 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Dropping prices on the DE controlled market

Nor this

30 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Dropping prices of the packages would mean that while both the prices in the DE market and player trade may be constant, less money buys the same amount of plat, which makes it so we can buy less plat overall and so less real money goes into DE's pockets at the end of the month

Is ever going to happen, because DE has stated time and time again that they don't endorse player trading and have no intention of altering the prices of their own stuff for the sake of accomodating for that. Therefore, you're talking about hypotetical constructs that bear no significance in the realm of reality. Meanwhile, I'm talking about facts.

Facts to which you yourself, in your overbearing, condescending, arrogant, self-absorbed tone have conceded. Therefore, you have no argument here: a situation in which prices drop constantly, especially if regulated by auction, is bad for all parts involved and forces players to pay more money if they want to buy stuff (your "many people don't spend anything" argument is empty: those people get rid of mastered weapons/warframes to open slots, and grind without boosters. Again, that's perfectly doable but it doesn't pertain to the scope of this conversation, if everyone was willing to make do with the limited free assets at our disposal this topic wouldn't exist, nor would the trade chat). That is a fact, and will always be a fact unless DE starts lowering the prices of their store to go with the fluctuations of the players-driven market, and again, that's something DE will never ever ever do, they've stated as much in official announcements multiple times, so even contemplating the idea for the sake of argument is nothing but a waste of time.

Now, if you want to continue insulting, mocking, looking down on others to feel less ignorant and less wrong, feel free to. I for one have no desire to feed your visceral craving for "victory" in an internet argument, especially one like this one, which has no reason to exist because the points made by one side are rooted on things that the developes have explictly stated will never happen. Thus, off to the ignore list with you: farewell, it was a true displeasure knowing you.

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I will never not support any proposal for a better trading system. All the objections to such a change have been dealt with and debunked numerous times.

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It is better to stay silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

If I had my doubts at the Nth AH thread, the desire for control over a free market and the unbuff of (as of reciently) a perfectly viable frame removed said doubt.

An AH will ony hurt the economy.

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The last thing this game needs is an auction house, especially after the riven illuminati got semlar banned. The plat barons would just corner all the markets and everything would be outrageously expensive.

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