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Immersive changes for Void Hole... weapon? power? thing?


DaraSilverDragon
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Honestly not sure where to put this, as battle avionics are more like a warframe power than a weapon, but this clearly shouldn't go in the Warframes feedback section, so - sitting here until they make a dedicated Railjack section and a mod moves it there, I guess?
Anywho, real simple change here, and clearly there are a LOT of fixes that are higher priority than this, but... once DE gets around to checking for little tweaks and changes again, rather than running around the offices with Omnitools in a panic trying to put out fires like the hangar clipping bugs...

For Void Hole - I strongly believe that there should be three damage types for it, corresponding to two hitboxes on the world entity the ability places down when cast. The actual void hole itself should continue doing frost damage, yes... but the disk around it should deal mixed incendiary and plasma damage, instead. Presumeably, this ability is intended to be 'forcibly tearing open a hole into the Void', which very clearly generates an Event Horizon and an Accretion Disk - passing the event horizon and taking frost damage makes sense - enemies are temporarily being booted into the Void (though their ability to fly straight back out of it right through the singularity should probably be fixed), so yeah, they'd definitely be getting pretty frozen. However, there's also a clear accretion disk around the event horizon, and that is typically caused by gas and dust heating up to absolutely stupid temperatures - often as hot as or hotter than a star - due to friction as it's accelerated towards the event horizon. Getting caught in that accretion disk would be like getting caught in the sun's photosphere; very hot, lots of radiation, and not a lot of fun for those stuck there.

In addition, I'd suggest having the accretion disk's DoT be as normal (maybe 80/80 per tick at rank 7) with something like a 30+% status chance, but instead of doing frost DoT once in the event horizon, it should probably be more like Limbo's Cataclysm - one large burst of damage entering it with 100% status chance, and another upon exit (I say 'large', but I just mean in comparison to the accretion disk. Maybe even make it a set percentage of enemy hp rather than a set number - like, 5% or something, just so there's still a point to using this against Veil fighters but it can't just be spammed to guarantee a kill). Following that, this ability probably shouldn't do very much damage- enough to one-shot fighters on Earth Proxima when maxed out in a maxed avionic slot, maybe (the 80/80 + 10% I listed will oneshot everything up to a Kosma Outrider, but none of the elites, which seems fair)... but the status procs on it should be near-guaranteed.
You can't really have abilities scale effectively alongside the enemy scaling currently in Warframe - it's just too tall an order. Anything that deals enough damage to tickle endgame enemies will just Thanos-snap earlier enemies without even noticing. Hence, status procs on this guy - if you can't do heavy damage to Veil enemies with it (and frankly, you shouldn't, as a high energy-capacity railjack could just spam void holes out and insta-win a mission), then you can at least meaningfully affect them by using abilities to cripple them. They might not die from a void hole, but they'll come out of it slowed, burning, and armor/shield stripped - so even though you can't just press a button and win, the weapon still feels powerful.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Edited by DaraSilverDragon
Clarification of status chances
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I mean....for immersion yes.

But in practical Warframe terms....no.

The visuals and interationcs in RJ are already bad enough as is. Hell, the game sometimes stutters alot when trying to collapse void holes as is.  As for the damage types, anything that runs the risk of DE nerfing the CC aspect of void hole is a hard NO for me.  Right now it's the only effective space CC we have.  If they change/add damage types they might dilute the frost procs which are the only real reason why we get a stack of ships piled in the thing.

I like the idea, but I think that there is too high a risk of making void hole worthless.  Also, rather than making void hole 'better' i'd like to see changes to:

  • Shatter Burst
  • Seekers
  • Tether
  • Blackout Pulse
  • Fiery Pheonix

 

 

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5 minutes ago, zehne said:

As for the damage types, anything that runs the risk of DE nerfing the CC aspect of void hole is a hard NO for me.  Right now it's the only effective space CC we have.  If they change/add damage types they might dilute the frost procs which are the only real reason why we get a stack of ships piled in the thing.

That's actually the exact opposite of what I'm going for here - the idea is to make this a CC and status machine, at the expense of heavy damage.
Currently, ships can actually fly out of void holes - I mentioned that needs to be fixed.
Also, as I said - the procs for all three damage types should be basically guaranteed. You have a 100% frost proc on entering/exiting the event horizon, and then have something like 30% on the accretion disk so that spending 3+ seconds in it comes close to guaranteeing both incendiary and plasma procs.
The idea is that the majority of ships coming in contact with this ability should be captured in place until the ability expires, at which point they will be burned, frozen, AND armor stripped - and there's a 140 dps (3500 dmg total) sacrifice being made to accomplish that.

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This might negatively affect the effectiveness of the ability. Without the frost procs, it might not be strong enough to actually pull enemies in.

Also it's called void hole and not black hole. They might be very different.

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1 minute ago, gluih said:

This might negatively affect the effectiveness of the ability. Without the frost procs, it might not be strong enough to actually pull enemies in.

Also it's called void hole and not black hole. They might be very different.

If that were the case, I'd advocate for the pull being manually increased - it shouldn't be possible for a ship to fly right past this at sub relativistic speed
And, yeah, I know they're not exactly the same... but at the same time, you ARE still creating a singularity where realspace is interacting with the void, and they very clearly have an event horizon and accretion disk in the visuals, so it's pretty obvious they're trying to harken to that aesthetic. Obviously a real black hole wouldn't be very viable, as it would A) affect the Tenno/Railjack as well, and B) have the mass of a large jovian planet at that size, possibly even a small star - it would mess up the orbit of whatever planet you used it near. Clearly changing it to a Void Hole is necessary - but I don't really know that the local effects would be much different, other than the tenno and their equipment being immune to it

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1 minute ago, DaraSilverDragon said:

If that were the case, I'd advocate for the pull being manually increased - it shouldn't be possible for a ship to fly right past this at sub relativistic speed
And, yeah, I know they're not exactly the same... but at the same time, you ARE still creating a singularity where realspace is interacting with the void, and they very clearly have an event horizon and accretion disk in the visuals, so it's pretty obvious they're trying to harken to that aesthetic. Obviously a real black hole wouldn't be very viable, as it would A) affect the Tenno/Railjack as well, and B) have the mass of a large jovian planet at that size, possibly even a small star - it would mess up the orbit of whatever planet you used it near. Clearly changing it to a Void Hole is necessary - but I don't really know that the local effects would be much different, other than the tenno and their equipment being immune to it

Does a black hole actually need to have a lot of mass? Void gravity probably falls off quicker than normal gravity because of extra dimensions involved, so its effect on stuff further away is not actually noticeable.

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Just now, gluih said:

Does a black hole actually need to have a lot of mass? Void gravity probably falls off quicker than normal gravity because of extra dimensions involved, so its effect on stuff further away is not actually noticeable.

Well a black hole would need that much mass, yeah - or at least the mass-energy equivalent. Technically you can create one by just focusing enough energy into a single point (this is called a Kugelblitz), but it would still behave like a massive body due to special relativity.
That's why we have the void hole instead - because now we can just shrug at the physics and go 'Eh, it's space magic. It Just Works (TM).'

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4 minutes ago, DaraSilverDragon said:

Well a black hole would need that much mass, yeah - or at least the mass-energy equivalent. Technically you can create one by just focusing enough energy into a single point (this is called a Kugelblitz), but it would still behave like a massive body due to special relativity.
That's why we have the void hole instead - because now we can just shrug at the physics and go 'Eh, it's space magic. It Just Works (TM).'

Where do you get all that information?

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52 minutes ago, gluih said:

Where do you get all that information?

even though I'm a cellular biologist, I've loved physics since I was a kid - only reason I didn't go into astrophysics instead of biology is because physics is like 98% higher mathematics, and even though I'm pretty good at calculus... I also really hate doing it. I'd be a terrible physicist lol. However, that interest never went away, so I still read papers about it, watch youtube stuff like SciShow Space, MinutePhysics, etc... hell, one of my favorite books in high school was Hyperspace, by Dr. Michio Kaku. Highly recommend it if you want some really interesting light reading - he breaks everything down to very layman terms, and there's little to no math.
Getting a bit off topic now, though-

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