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Railjack enemy armor reduction actually an EHP rise?


0_The_F00l
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Update:

Short answer to title: No,

Detailed answer: non elite enemies up to about level 25 will have slightly more EHP then they had previously. enemies above level 25 have lesser EHP than before, All elite units are relatively easier to kill.

Observations through other player inputs and personal testing:

Zetki Cryophon variants are now requiring twice as many shots to do the same amount of damage and the TTK (for same build as before) is almost 2.5 x the previous one, the zetki variant especially can at max shoot out 4 shots before overheating (zetki polar coil needed) so 2 enemies in single "magazine" would be a lucky result thereby making their higher fire rate moot. These really need a better heat accretion (30%) rate or double the fire rate at least - preferably both.

In comparison , the photor , Pulsar and carcinnox (zetki variants) can easily take out 4 enemies and still be left with nearly quarter of the heat gauge still available - the  pulsar especially has become significantly better but the ion status procs can get a little annoying as they can make the fliers fly in weird ways- but they all feel on par for killing potential i cannot compare their before and after effects as i did not have them built before.

Zetki Apoc feels the same as before though , nearly no change to it and can take out just the same amount of enemies as before (about 4 to 6 in full heat gauge) , really felt lacking compared to the others but not as bad as the cryophon.

Vidar Apoc is still a good enough all round gun if nothing better is available did not notice any significant problems than before,

Vidar cryophon feels just slightly weaker than before maybe , 75% as effective as before could still kill enemies in 2 shots if lucky but the low fire rate is the major problem according to me definitely much much much better than the zetki one,

Vidar carcinnox is kinda unchanged, a 25% better kill time was observed , slightly better than the zetki variant , just very slightly.

I am yet to build any lavan - i really dont see a reason to do so as of now though.

My Railjack has zetki hyperstrike , predator and section density all intrinsics at 7 (i have increased my gunner intrinsic to 9 after doing these testings and it is noticeably better while drifting with pulsar and photor due to hitscan , too bad you cant aim properly while drifting unless you are heading straight for the enemy and projectile guns will just miss -_- )

 

Original Topic:

Hey guys, 

Went through the patch notes and something about the armor and health changes about the enemies felt off for me. 

So I made a few quick calculations and found that the EHP of all the non elite enemies except the out rider was actually increasing (by 10 to 20%). 

I myself haven't gotten home to test them in actual missions. I also understand the cryophon is now doing half the damage, so the results for that gun would obviously be worse than before. 

I would like to discuss if the damage output in actual missions has seen a rise or fall , in which case DE may have straight up buffed the enemies while implying the opposite, 

I have not yet formed an opinion and would like to know the results of those that have used other weapons and observed the TTK difference. 

Results may vary with missions and levels of course. 

Will update this as observations come in. 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
Updated observations
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I would not call it testing but I did some missions and running Zetki Cryophons is not rewarding any more. Before you took the time to aim shoot and things blew up. Feels much slower now. 

Will replace them. Did not use other guns, since update.

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1 minute ago, schilds said:

Nice clickbait title.

It's not clickbait, he's asking a sincere question

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have not yet formed an opinion and would like to know the results of those that have used other weapons and observed the TTK difference. 

Haven't played that much yet either, but TTK feels MUCH lower for me

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Well, lowering the armor and raising the HP is just turning a pancake 180º. And considering the nerf on the values for particle damage procs that made most RJ and AW weapons work (i.e Imperator vandal with status chance and especially Cyngas), basically it takes almost twice the time for most weapons to kill a certain enemy. At least that's what I feel with my Imperator, and Cryophon MK3 (sh1t one).

I really don't like this update on the stats, they should organize these new elemental or "chemical" damages on ships for AW weapons, plus the limited elements of choice in each RJ weapon, instead they just tweaked this and that, with no actual QOL improvement on the matter. Sure, a Zetki Carcinnox may be a little more viable with heat cost reduction, but then again, they just turned the pancake over and burned the other side.

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Honestly, if anything, this change has shown us that DE sometimes really don't understand some of the finer mechanics of the game. Unless their intention was to raise some enemies EHP then I guess they did a good job.

Also my Mk3 Vidar Cryophon with +50% damage and a maxed Zetki Hyperstrike (121% damage,) and Vidar winged storm (+17% damage) is so bad if you don't crit now. I used to be able to out damage a healing bubble on a Elite Cutter without critting. Now sometimes I can't even kill a basic exo taktis when I crit and this is with a maxed out Section Density, if they have the heal I actually cant kill them without 2 crits in a row and that gets very frustrating. Honestly I think that a Lavan Apoc is now the best pilot weapon and that is only because of its particle damage effect.

I literally have a nearly maxed out kit for my railjack (best crit avionics, best hyperstrike, winged storm as a bonus and 50% Vidar cryo) and the cryophon is so bad.

Edited by More-L
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Only the non-elites got an increase in health. Meanwhile, only the Cryophon sees a direct reduction. Sounds like they're just bumping the gaps closer between Cryophons killing things instantly and Elite variants soaking up a ton of ammo more than their regular counterparts. I don't know how you're calculating the same HP + Lower Armor as a EHP increase for elite enemies which make up the majority of the fights where it matters.

Edited by RX-3DR
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8 minutes ago, schilds said:

Nice clickbait title.

Not my intention, but I won't scoff that it is a catchy title. 

9 minutes ago, schilds said:

Lower level enemies saw an ehp rise.

Higher level enemies saw an ehp fall.

Discussion is about how much difference it would make compared to before. 

8 minutes ago, theFGMK said:

I would not call it testing but I did some missions and running Zetki Cryophons is not rewarding any more. Before you took the time to aim shoot and things blew up. Feels much slower now. 

Was expecting that, as the Cryophons has received a damage Nerf. But is it just half as effective or even lesser? 

10 minutes ago, More-L said:

Also the Cryophon is so bad if you don't crit now. I used to be able to out damage a healing bubble on a Elite Cutter without critting. Now sometimes I can't even kill a basic exo taktis when I crit and this is with a maxed out Section Density, if they have the heal I actually cant kill them without 2 crits in a row and that gets very frustrating. Honestly I think that a Lavan Apoc is now the best pilot weapon and that is only because of its particle damage effect.

I really do wish DE wasn't overzealous with the nerfs of popular items at times. So taking that the TTK is a lot more than double with cryophon now. 

1 minute ago, RX-3DR said:

Only the non-elites got an increase in health. Meanwhile, only the Cryophon sees a direct reduction. Sounds like they're just bumping the gaps closer between Cryophons killing things instantly and Elite variants soaking up a ton of ammo more than their regular counterparts. I don't know how you're calculating the same HP + Lower Armor as a EHP increase for elite enemies which make up the majority of the fights where it matters.

They all got a health increase though (except out riders as I said before) hence the overall rise to EHP on basic calculation, that's why I want to know first hand observations on the TTK, how has you railjack experience on damage been?

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20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's not clickbait, he's asking a sincere question

It may be a sincere question, but it's also a clickbait title (whether intentional or not).

Spot the difference:

"How did enemy ehp change with the last update?"

"Railjack armour reduction actually an ehp rise?"

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not my intention, but I won't scoff that it is a catchy title.

Fair enough. I'm no saint either :-P.

 

Did you take into account enemy level when you did your calculations?

 

On the cryophons. They are now objectively worse than other weapons for use with Munitions Vortex. If you want burst damage for that purpose, you will have to switch weapons.

Edited by schilds
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1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

They all got a health increase though (except out riders as I said before) hence the overall rise to EHP on basic calculation, that's why I want to know first hand observations on the TTK, how has you railjack experience on damage been?

Where does it say that?

Quote

Halved Fighter Armor
Enemy Fighters in Railjack have too much armor - meaning your Railjack weapons just don’t feel great in the time it takes to kill an enemy. All Fighter Armor values have been halved, with a slight boost in health for non-elites to compensate. 


Health value changes:

Flak health: 250 to 375
Taktis health: 200 to 300
Cutter health: 200 to 300

Unless you're talking about a previous update, I don't see how Elites are affected.

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6 minutes ago, schilds said:

 Did you take into account enemy level when you did your calculations?

No, it will need more time and proper charting which I plan to do when I am at my desk again. 

That's why i said 

40 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Results may vary with missions and levels of course. 

Will update this as observations come in. 

 

4 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Where does it say that?

Unless you're talking about a previous update, I don't see how Elites are affected.

You are right, it does not affect elites, it is only affecting non elites that now have a buff to EHP (potentially) while elites do have lesser EHP. 

Will update the main topic, 

I would still like your observations about the damage output and TTK. 

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14 minutes ago, schilds said:

It may be a sincere question, but it's also a clickbait title (whether intentional or not).

Spot the difference:

"How did enemy ehp change with the last update?"

"Railjack armour reduction actually an ehp rise?"

You need to be careful, or "clickbait" is going to go down the road of "SJW" and "baby boomer". It doesn't mean "anything that caught my attention which I found out I didn't like", it means this

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3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You need to be careful, or "clickbait" is going to go down the road of "SJW" and "baby boomer". It doesn't mean "anything that caught my attention which I found out I didn't like", it means this

I didn't say I didn't like it. Don't put words in my mouth.

If you're trying to say that I should have said "nice catchy title", fine, maybe I should have :-P.

Edited by schilds
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These are for a cutter.

Desmos link: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/bn8njudwlp

Ehp vs enemy level, red is old, blue is new:

4ImaS30.png

 

graph of (new ehp) / (old ehp) for elite units (orange) and other units (green):

mk7YMKa.png

New ehp starts off higher than old ehp, crossover is at about level 25 after which it is lower, approaching what appears to be an asymptote of about 0.75 x old ehp.

Though that's at very high levels that we never see. In Veil Proxima we're talking maybe at most 5% lower than before.

That's for normal units. Elite units are just a flat nerf, about 0.65 x old ehp at the levels we see them in Veil Proxima, and half old ehp at very high levels. Is that why Cryophon does half its old damage?

 

In short:

  • Cryophon was nerfed (the reduction in enemy ehp doesn't match the reduction in Cryophon damage, at the levels we see them, even for elite units).
  • Normal enemies are slightly tougher around Earth and Saturn, very slightly easier around Veil.
  • Elite enemies are easier.
  • Zetki weapons (bar Cryophon) were buffed.
  • Pulsar was buffed.
Edited by schilds
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17 minutes ago, schilds said:

These are for a cutter.

Desmos link: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/fia53l6amf

Ehp vs enemy level, red is old, blue is new:

4ImaS30.png

 

graph of (new ehp) / (old ehp):

mhEizXz.png

New ehp starts off higher than old ehp, crossover is at about level 25 after which it is lower, approaching what appears to be an asymptote of about 0.75 x old ehp.

Though that's at very high levels that we never see. In Veil Proxima we're talking maybe at most 5% lower than before. That's for normal units. Elite units are just a flat nerf since they didn't get a health boost.

Hey thanks for that. 

Guess technically all the problematic enemies are after level 40, so they did get a Nerf. 

But, In my opinion it feels so... Minimal. 

Time to start repairing the other weapons I have stocked I guess. Can't help but being slight relieved but also disappointed at the same time. 

Maybe the other fixes and changes will add up in actual missions. 

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1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hey thanks for that. 

Guess technically all the problematic enemies are after level 40, so they did get a Nerf. 

But, In my opinion it feels so... Minimal. 

Time to start repairing the other weapons I have stocked I guess. Can't help but being slight relieved but also disappointed at the same time. 

Maybe the other fixes and changes will add up in actual missions. 

Whoa, don't quote the whole post!

Also, I made a slight edit for elite units, since I didn't originally include them.

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2 minutes ago, schilds said:

Whoa, don't quote the whole post!

Also, I made a slight edit for elite units, since I didn't originally include them.

Hmm, the EHP reduction to elites is rather significant, an overall 40% reduction feels like it (in relevant content above lvl 40) 

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7 minutes ago, saradonin said:

EHP out of context doesn't matter.

What matters is time to kill or in more practical terms time to finish a RJ mission, which is in fact significantly longer due to archgun status build nerf.

For people who park their railjack and use archguns, sure.

 

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hmm, the EHP reduction to elites is rather significant, an overall 40% reduction feels like it (in relevant content above lvl 40) 

I think the elite graph is not correct, hang on while I redo it :D.

[edit] Turns out roughly the same so I'll leave it :-P.

Edited by schilds
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1 minute ago, saradonin said:

EHP out of context doesn't matter.

What matters is time to kill or in more practical terms time to finish a RJ mission, which is in fact significantly longer due to archgun status build nerf.

That's why i want to know the observations,

we can all do the calculations as nicely put up by @schilds

But overall effects can only be observed by actually playing. 

I also do not want to consider archguns personally, but I understand a lot of players don't have good railjack weapons and that is the fall back tactic. 

I would like your observation and some actual reference (feels twice as long? Just slightly longer? Half as long?) against whatever weapon you used before and after. 

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I can only speak for the use of a RJ with battle avionics. It's not any different. Though I did swap to Zetki Carcinox from Vidar Cryophons for the front guns.

I personally think people need to moderate their expectations a little.

  • I don't think you should expect to be efficient when not using the railjack at all.
  • I don't think you should expect to be efficient when not using the railjack's abilities (e.g. battle/tactical avionics). That's like using warframes without their abilities.
  • If you're visiting the highest level railjack missions in a railjack that needs parking, then it should expected that you're pushing the boundary of what you can comfortably handle.

That said:

  • I agree there's an argument to be made that just increasing ehp isn't the same as increasing challenge, Often it just increases tedium.
  • I agree there's an argument to be made regarding the feeling of squashing hordes of enemies. The hordes of trash we're fighting should feel like trash. I think that's the Warframe people expect. Challenge can come from the inclusion of other things. Though sometimes people complain about units that mix it up a little, like Nox, too, so I dunno.
  • Archwings should be viable, especially when the railjack *is* being used.
    • Those winged avionics need a larger range, and possibly provide larger buffs. Railjack design implies that the owner can choose to specialise their railjack for a variety of roles, including supporting archwings.
    • There could be battle/tactical abilities that support archwings.
    • The nerf was to one damage type to bring it into line with the other damage types. Since that damage type was what made archwings somewhat viable, the nerf should be followed by a buff to archwings (and DE have said they will rework Archwings, possible entirely from the ground up).
Edited by schilds
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18 minutes ago, schilds said:

For people who park their railjack and use archguns, sure.

Also for people who use regular non-void-hole crew consisting of pilot + engineer/gunner + 2 archwing vanguards/boarders.

Minor turret (other than Cryophon) buff doesn't cover the massive nerf of particle status effect. Cyngas is back in the drawer leaving only Imperator Vandal doing the job with crit/status hybrid pulling slightly ahead. To compensate for that loss Cryophon should not be nerfed at all, in fact other turrets should be buffed to the same level as Cryophon.

25 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I understand a lot of players don't have good railjack weapons and that is the fall back tactic.

It's not a fall back tactic, until yesterday it was the only time efficient tactic for those who were not lucky/rich enough to spam Void Hole.

Quite frankly spending 10-15 min (instead of 6-8 min) in a simple mission shooting peas is enough for me to quit it for now and wait till further changes.

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