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Empyrean: reactors - the one big thing you have to fix and that's killing the game mode


(XBOX)KayAitch
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Dear DE, we all agree, reactor drop rates suck, but it's fundamentally worse than that - random reactors will kill entire the game mode.

I'm MR27, long time player, I clearly love this game. I watch lots of build videos, I spend time on these forums talking about builds and almost as much time getting my builds right for the content I want to play as actually playing it. I really enjoy how mods work, how forma works and all that.

Every frame, every weapon, has predictable capacity. Add Orokin Catalyst/Reactor to double it. Add Forma to reduce the cost of mods, and so on.

But railjacks are just busted.

Your railjack and my railjack are completely different. It's a dice roll. I can share my amazing build but it doesn't matter, as you probably can't fit it. Either that or I can't fit yours.

And that sucks. It doesn't just loot-box suck (though it does that too) - it fundamentally breaks the gameplay loop of Warframe.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this. My railjack has every grid slot maxed. I have 20k Dirac sitting there doing nothing. My build is dead. It hasn't changed this year and if I don't get a better reactor (2% per mission chance of even having a chance of that) it will never change again.

That gameplay loop of trying builds out is dead.

For frames I can go see some cool new build cooked up and then go try it out.

For railjack I can't. 

It's burning me out on railjack already. The variety is gone. The design/build element is gone. It's just dice rolls. Not a chance to get a mod that I can use in a build, but the whole build is just dice rolls.

DE, as it stands your best outcome is that we get that one reactor that has 100 capacity and we still never get to share a build - nobody wants to hear about your amazing build that only you can run.

Your build and iteration gameplay is gone. Instead we now have keep rolling dice until you get the one good thing and then stop.

I don't mind grind, so long as there's progress. 100 missions for 2-4 dice rolls at a chance of a good reactor sucks. Just give us a new resource X, make the reactor cost 100X and make each mission give us 1X.

TL;DR: Either reactor capacity should just be fixed by tier (all T3 reactors give 100) or you can spend Dirac for extra capacity (up to 50 on top of the reactor, which would be the Sigma base). Set the Dirac cost to whatever you want, it can be crippling, Hema level rediculous, it doesn't matter - so long as every mission is a bit of progress towards what we want that gameplay loop can come back.

Or try this 

 

 

 

 

Edited by (XB1)KayAitch
Added link to better idea I had for fixing this
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Quit using rivens because of RNG stats and wasted time farming.

Quit doing Lich's because of RNG of getting a weapon.

Pretty much decided last night I don't even want to touch railjack either for the same reason. Especially considering Archgun feels like trash after their "fix" yesterday and it doubled the length of the mission.

But this prolongs game play I guess in their minds but in reality they're blinded by the reality it makes people lose hope and ignore said content

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12 minutes ago, --Brandt-- said:

Pretty much decided last night I don't even want to touch railjack either for the same reason. Especially considering Archgun feels like trash after their "fix" yesterday and it doubled the length of the mission.

But this prolongs game play I guess in their minds but in reality they're blinded by the reality it makes people lose hope and ignore said content

Man I really hope they “hear” the community in that awesome thread (here) and don’t bring that trash update to consoles before a real “fix” I read 30 pages in total til now and it’s getting worst and worst. Most of my friends stop playing after lich when I tried to convince them “railjack was fun” my answer was “ok wait for a month and they’ll screw even more the game”.

guess my friends were right. When this reach consoles I’ll have to get back to ffxiv or another game for a year and see if they finally learned how to balance things.

 

btw i quoted u and get an screen shot to when they delete I have a copy to post on Reddit 

Edited by (PS4)f0l1v31r4
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33 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

They started rng with riven

Rivens are OK, they get away with it, because rivens are only a game changer for the weapons nobody wants, and for the weapons everybody uses (Catchmoon, Tig Prime, etc) they're a minor perk at best.

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

then kuva weapons

While not great, now you can merge in a better roll if you get it. It still feels arbitrary, but not painful.

Railjack is a whole other level. It's like the worst parts of rivens and Kuva weapons, but no re-rolls, no merging stats and impossibly low chances in the first place.

But that's not even the killer problem. The killer problem is that the capacity is the dice roll. Almost any other stat we could deal with, but capacity means no build is worth sharing.

The whole build community is dead.

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Rivens are OK, they get away with it, because rivens are only a game changer for the weapons nobody wants, and for the weapons everybody uses (Catchmoon, Tig Prime, etc) they're a minor perk at best.

Kinda, yeah. My impression of Rivens has always been that they're there for min/maxers who enjoy trying to make terrible weapons workable in high-level content, but still something the mere mortals among us could safely ignore and pretend doesn't exist. You're right that Riven Disposition is a good way to keep the system mostly relevant to underperforming weapons. However, with Railjack and Liches, Riven RNG is everywhere and this time there's no avoiding it. There's no using Kuva weapons without engaging in the RNG, there's no real way to do Railjack without having to deal with House RNG and especially for your reactor. I'm honestly pretty disheartened with the state of the game.

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If we had some means to influence or change the stats on our ships components, similar to how void traces are used to change the odds of what we get from relics?

If we're going to be saddled with trying to slog through an RNG system to get what we're after, then certainly the players can be given a means to mitigate the grind somewhat, and allow for players to further customize their railjack's stats and abilities; no?

Rivens have re-rolling and transmutation as a means to get around the limits initially present in the system.
Relics and their refinement are our way around the limits of the initial void keys.
We have some limited influence regarding the Kuva Lich's abilities and elemental damage bonus on their weapons.
Hek, we even have several warframes and augment mods to improve loot drop chances, but these only work outside of archwing/railjack space.

What we need is to find a way to implement something similar for railjack weapons/components.

Idea:
Perhaps something along the line of a mission blueprint made in the foundry like the keys for some quests (Sands of Inaros.) A blueprint for a mission that is guaranteed to reward a specific railjack part. But a version of it with higher component costs to build it from scratch rather than repairing old salvage.
This component, built from the ground up, would have sub-component blueprints. With options for each segment that we would be able to choose for ourselves what we wanted. Just like building a modular weapon or pet moa.

Higher MK components would have a higher capacity for additional segments (MK 1 has 1, MK 2 has 2, etc.) which could all be the same to focus on a particular component stat, or they could all be different to build a decent generalist component.

The modular systems in use already lay an excellent foundation for the future if this route is followed. And the chance to make each player's railjack even more customized and as varied as each player's zaws and amps sounds like a lot of fun!

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2 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

Idea:
Perhaps something along the line of a mission blueprint made in the foundry ...

This sounds rediculously overcomplicated, but yeah, still better than the current dice rolls. 

Railjack relics that contain reactor parts would be fine if (and only if) those reactors always had the same stats.

RNG to get the thing is OKish. Not great, but we can deal.

RNG of the thing so that half the time you get it and it's rubbish is just awful. It sucks.

Rivens are bad but manageable because we can both re-roll and disposition means it's not game-critical.

Reactors are game-critical. 

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I made a thread very similar to this and gave the alternate (horrible) scenario of random capacity warframes.  Or, (nightmare) what if catalyst reactors worked same way for warframes giving -10 to 30 points?  Or forma gave a random percent bonus to each slot, or even a random polarity?   There would be no guides and no glue holding community together.  

One good idea I heard was to grant 2 points capacity to every point invest in grid for a total 90 points possible (perhaps updates in future can expand this further so future grind could occur).  The different manufactures can have a set amount of flux energy traded off with a boost to forward artillery damage or trade-off with extra speed or extra armor (set amounts, so only RNG is finding the part you want) to allow planning to design ship and pick builds.  Random passive stats are acceptable as they currently are (10% shields in shield, shield charge on cloak, etc.).  These are more like quirks and nice to have a anyway.  Each manufacturer could have some special really nice feature bonus that's rare and sought out, but base capacity and stats should never be random.  

Many different set stats could be made and players could go min/max crazy to create a tank, a carrier (archwing boosts), a speedster, or a middle of road do-it-all.  I'm sorry, but if you like to min/max, railjack may not be the game mode for you.  There is no customization, you just build whatever you can, no plan, no goal, just whatever you are lucky with.

It seems DE is looking for short term profits now and not long term success.  Just squeeze the milk as much as possible then hype up another game mode.  I'm not convinced DE designed railjack to be long term.  There will be the next big thing soon enough and railjack forgotten.  Sad because it has amazing potential but DE ignoring players and will likely leave it a steaming pile of poop.

DE is slowly destroying the good will the have built up.  Customization is dead, welcome to WarCasino.  

Edited by Educated_Beast
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To give an example of what I meant above, all m1, m2, and m3 reactors have identical capacity but there are tradoffs that allow specialization.  

 

Zetki reactors could be about damage:

3 versions - min flux energy with max forward artillery damage boost versus min artillery damage with max flux energy and one in middle

 

Vidar reactors could be about defence

3 versions - min flux with max armor versus max flux with min armor boost, then a middle of road version

 

Lavan reactors  could be about speed

3 versions - min flux versus max speed (top speed and acceleration) boost versus max flux versus min speed boost, then one in middle.

 

Now all reactors are useful but each manufacturer would allow different specializations so players can customize railjack when combined with avionics and flux hungry battle avionics.  Want a speedster, get a lavan reactor combined with the desired engine for major boost.  Want a tank, get a lavan reactor.  Want them all, great, play the game!  Add a configuration tab and when new mission types introduced, be creative.  Unfortunately, that was the old Warframe....

 

This is just 9 parts that would not waste space on server further screwing up game mode with random stats that forces an illogical limit on scrap parts forcing frequent micro-management.  This would allow players to set goals, make guides, follow guides, create alternate builds.  New reactors and parts could be added such as a trade off of shields versus flux energy, or archwing boosts versus flux (to make a carrier).  

 

Instead we get random.  The worst possible outcome.  It's not to late, DE could get rid of this garbage, give players the equivalent version, and create a game mode that will last.  

 

Problem is, they are creative.  They already thought of this or something similar and decided to go casino route instead.  That means it's not the same DE and they are no long future focused, but what they can squeeze out of players now.  

Edited by Educated_Beast
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An easier fix, and also a compromise, would be set Sigma MK3 at +80, and all the MK3's of the three houses give various bonus from +80 to +100.  I for one don't see why avionics capacity needs to be variable, and punishingly to obtain.  But I guess DE is cooking something else, so while simply upper the number can't make everyone happy, it's at least will make most of the stuff more bearable.

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8 minutes ago, kgptzac said:

An easier fix, and also a compromise, would be set Sigma MK3 at +80, and all the MK3's of the three houses give various bonus from +80 to +100.  I for one don't see why avionics capacity needs to be variable, and punishingly to obtain.  But I guess DE is cooking something else, so while simply upper the number can't make everyone happy, it's at least will make most of the stuff more bearable.

That is still random capacity.  With random, you will always have that one guy that played for years and still not get a perfect roll.  

The variable capacity avionics is ok, because you can still get a bonus squeezing in points within set capacity, depending on goal.  Random capacity is a whole other unacceptable piece of dung no matter what the spread is.  

Warframe is a game of tradeoffs and corrupt mods are some of my favorite.  If you want a max, gotta deal with a min.  Reactors could do same for flux energy but trade off other bonuses so specialty railjacks could be made.  

That would have the longest replayability.  I'd collect multiple to be able to customize for different missions (assuming we get them and railjack doesn't die before start).

Edited by Educated_Beast
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There needs not be an ideological aversion to random stats.  The underlying reason why random capacity is egregious is precisely the degree of imbalance between a high and low roll would cause the player to lose several degree of power, a fluctuation that no other RNG on ship parts could match.  In the end it's about enabling a player who spent a reasonable amount of time and effort to have a reasonably power level to complete missions in a reasonable amount of time and effort.  Tightening the degree of randomness is a valid and logical approach, lest you want to risk DE kneejerking their fixes (as demonstrated by the recent patches with quite radical changes in modifiers) to the wrong direction.

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1 minute ago, kgptzac said:

There needs not be an ideological aversion to random stats.  The underlying reason why random capacity is egregious is precisely the degree of imbalance between a high and low roll would cause the player to lose several degree of power, a fluctuation that no other RNG on ship parts could match.  In the end it's about enabling a player who spent a reasonable amount of time and effort to have a reasonably power level to complete missions in a reasonable amount of time and effort.  Tightening the degree of randomness is a valid and logical approach, lest you want to risk DE kneejerking their fixes (as demonstrated by the recent patches with quite radical changes in modifiers) to the wrong direction.

No, random capacity is always unacceptable. However I think random quirks as they currently exist are perfectly fine.  However the base stats and capacity should be unchanged creating tradoffs, specializations, customization, personalization, and all of that leads to replayability.  You know, like warframes.  

Drop rates could be adjusted so most desirable min max rarer than base version.  New engines, reactors, etc could be added for events.  But as is now, who cares, everything is random.  

Just explain to me this, how is random capacity better than what I proposed above?

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It's not that I doubt you, or anyone else in this matter, can come up with a better solution, it's just making blanket statements like the one below doesn't constitute a conversation starter in a place that's about offering constructive suggestions.

Quote

With random, you will always have that one guy that played for years and still not get a perfect roll.  

Perfect roll is rather a concept of vanity, when the real question is something entirely else.  My previous reply was addressing that, primarily.

Nevertheless, if you want to delve deeper in to the hypothetical, then I can come up with a bunch of new battle/tactical avionics that have very low, zero, or even negative capacity costs, that can fairly, effectively, and meaningfully offer actual choice to the players in exchange of the lost avionics capacity from the reactors' RNG.  These battle/tactical avionics would work more like highly specific warframe abilities that shifts the need to tank and kill enemies from avionics to abilities that can make good use of the excessive amount of flux capacity Zekti reactors offer.

Obviously, solutions like this is much harder to implement correctly and satisfy us, the unpaid armchair game developers that both you and I and most others who come up fantastical blueprints of new mechanics.

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I have posted about this topic in many threads but it is a pressing matter to me.

We NEED modeable, upgradeable, fuseable reactors!

To lock the fundamental component that defines your ability to individually customize your railjack via avionics behind pure randomness is a foul fact! It breaks with EVERYTHING Warframe is a beacon for. I left Destiny years ago because WF’s modding systems are just so much more sopisticated, pleasant and satisfactory. 

Now I find that the ability to mod your railjack to uniqueness and satisfaction is locked behind pulling the lever on the slot machine as many times until one day finally dropping a useful part and finally start modding those tactical avionics or those battle avionics I wanted to try out. 

Unsatisfactory! I stopped playing RJ.

In itself Railjack is a incredibly bold move, almost visionary and could become a core aspect of WF that interconnects almost all already existing aspects of the game and pushes it further. It can become something really outstanding in the whole gaming world.

The New War? Railjack at it’s core gameplay? RNG-Railjack? The space slot machine for the RNG reactor?  I am not so confident I should look forward to the NEW WAR. If this randomness for fundamental core parts is here to stay, I am not interessted in anything RJ in the future. Thanks, but no thanks.

If the core aspect of this mode is to be such a simplyfied, gamble driven and inpersonal RNG stupidity... no thanks!

Edited by (PS4)PePSchaepp
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vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)PePSchaepp:

The New War? Railjack at it’s core gameplay? Railjack? The space slot machine for the RNG reactor?  I am not so confident I should look forward to the NEW WAR. If this Randomness for fundamental core parts is here to stay, I am not interessted in anything RJ anymore.

I guess its just the beginning... They are so hyped about RNG right now. Fear the worst.

w39wtfa4.png

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12 minutes ago, ValinorAtani said:

I guess its just the beginning... They are so hyped about RNG right now. Fear the worst.

 

I really like farming for resources, blueprints and such.

I adore the riven system, which you can embrace or blend out entirely.

I did not particulary like the Kuva Lich system, but I liked the variation of elemental damage on Kuva weapons. 

But this? Your most important part that defines how well you can mod your Railjack is locked behind no popular and pleasing progression system but is just a blunt and uncreative random drop? Does not feel WF at all!

Edited by (PS4)PePSchaepp
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16 minutes ago, kgptzac said:

Perfect roll is rather a concept of vanity, when the real question is something entirely else.  

Not when it comes to capacity.  That's my heartache and if we do t see eye to eye hear, no worries, I'm sure there is much more we agree on.  

But random capacity is a deal breaker for me.  It's not a vanity thing, it's the stich holding the community together.  Comparing builds, watching guides, customizing and specializing all withing set boundaries is critical to logetivity and replayability.  

You cannot do that with random capacity.  Probability will always bless and screw those outside the bell curve.  

Edited by Educated_Beast
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I bet the Sortie completion rates have suddenly gone up since people realized the rarity of avionics. My friends who have not done a sortie in ages certainly have started praying at the screen once a day for that mod drop chance booster to have a higher chance of not wasting their lives so much while grinding outriders for void hole...

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1 hour ago, kgptzac said:

There needs not be an ideological aversion to random stats. 

There isn't.

The problem, the killer, game-breaking, fun-ruining problem is just capacity. I cannot use your build, you cannot use mine, and in one move the build community is dead.

For builds to be a thing on railjack, for YouTubers and twitch streamers to share these great new build ideas they had or found, y'know, a big chunk of the heart of the Warframe community, for any of that: capacity needs to be a static, predictable thing.

If it's a dice roll none of that matters.

I can go and see your great build for the Pennant, you can find out about my Ivara Prime build, but nobody gives a flying f**k about either of our railjack builds because only our own dice rolls matter.

That is a community killer, it's a game loop killer, it's burnout for this game for everyone (because one you finally get that perfect roll after whatever lucky tries what else is there? Roll again?)

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I've already stopped playing Railjack altogether until they fix the drops. I've played Anthem, and I dropped Railjack faster than I dropped Anthem because the drop rates are that much more worse. If DE wants to add randomized stats, then fine, but they need to make it rain loot and drastically increase our wreckage storage capacity if they want Railjack to be rewarding. It also wouldn't hurt to make it so that the loot we get from drops are better than the stock Sigma reactors.

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