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Gasau

will there be difficulty in this game some day?

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Not rant or whiny post.

I am interested in the opinions of other players. Do you think there will ever be really difficult tasks in this game?

 

You know what I mean. Most of the content in this game has become too simple.

Almost all missions are spammed by one button. Enemies up to level 100 die with a single shot. Even sorties no longer pose any danger.

 

The game is just huge powercreep. But this is not so bad. It only needs to be used correctly.

 

For example, I really liked the grendel’s missions. It was a good challenge and for the first time in a long time I was putting together a team and thinking about tactics.

I really liked the grineers on railjack missions (veil). They are fat, they are dangerous.

 

Lvl 200 super sorties? Heck lets go lvl 300 mega sorties with cool rewards. Players who collected super gear finally feel that it was not in vain.

For me, the game has recently been reminiscent of boring work. Yes, I understand that Warframe is all about grind. 

 

Why not add more meaning to this grind instead of this new dull RNG?

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It's pretty difficult to log in after all the RNG that's been added in the recent months. I find it challenging to stay on Warframe when there are so many other games that value my time more.

Be careful what you wish for i guess, because they just delivered difficulty and challenge.

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To me its not about levels but about the structure of gameplay. 
Now I enjoy this game, I really do. There is a lot to this game that I really appreciate and I like the overall gameplay to an extent. 

The issue I have is they give us an overabundance of tools and do not challenge us in using them. 
We have all these cool parkour skills, but the one mission where I was even remotely required to use them was the Lua spy mission. 

Operators are only useful due to arcane and anything related to the sentients. 

The existence of Umbra (and the idea of Echoes of Umbra) would be useful if there was any need to require the player to be in operator mode and fight separately from their warframe for any length of time.

Status effects can trivialize previously difficult content, not to mention certain Warframes themselves. 

The problem stems from balancing that with the whole power fantasy that this game also represents. And that is where things get difficult.

I wish I knew a solution, but I have a hard time coming up with ideas that wouldn't require fundamental changes to the gameplay that would turn a lot of people off.

 

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11 minutes ago, Gasau said:

Not rant or whiny post.

I am interested in the opinions of other players. Do you think there will ever be really difficult tasks in this game?

 

You know what I mean. Most of the content in this game has become too simple.

Almost all missions are spammed by one button. Enemies up to level 100 die with a single shot. Even sorties no longer pose any danger.

 

The game is just huge powercreep. But this is not so bad. It only needs to be used correctly.

 

For example, I really liked the grendel’s missions. It was a good challenge and for the first time in a long time I was putting together a team and thinking about tactics.

I really liked the grineers on railjack missions (veil). They are fat, they are dangerous.

 

Lvl 200 super sorties? Heck lets go lvl 300 mega sorties with cool rewards. Players who collected super gear finally feel that it was not in vain.

For me, the game has recently been reminiscent of boring work. Yes, I understand that Warframe is all about grind. 

 

Why not add more meaning to this grind instead of this new dull RNG?

The dumber you are the hard the game is.

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There are several problems here. Difficulty is not universal. What constitutes a fun challenge for some is a head-banging nightmare for others. Some players just have lower skill levels. Some players have disabilities. Any time you start talking about making the game harder for yourself, you may well be talking about making it unplayable for them.

Some people say Warframe should have optional difficulty levels, and I would be down with that, if the people who play on the highest difficulty wouldn’t demand better rewards, and you know they will.

Also, let’s be real here. Bloating enemy stats like health and damage (which is all that is accomplished by simply jacking the level up) isn’t really a solution to a lack of challenge. If power creep is a problem, creating higher level content that even further demands the over-powered meta is the opposite of the solution. If all you want is for enemies to hit harder and die slower, you have the power to make that happen now. Don’t use the meta. Take off some mods. Put on some dragon keys. You can make the game harder for yourself.

”But why should I stow away all the rewards that I worked so hard for???” Well I’m sorry, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

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Of course not. Whenever something hard in any capacity is added, people will ask for it to be nerfed.

And it will. Just give it time.

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there are many reasons why it is difficult to apply more difficulty.

one of them is the consistent debate between two sides who either want a power-fantasy or dark souls level of difficulty.

another concerns cooperation. the problem with forcing cooperation in order to apply difficulty is that it will feel too restrictive. take railjack for example where players are already more interested in the continued development of its archwing or solo aspects rather the development of the actual railjack. most of everyone likes to be a lone wolf.

there is also a risk concerning restricting a player's freedom of choice. how difficult could we possibly make a game where every playstyle is effective in its own special way? its extremely difficult to do so. i personally still wish i could beat Laphantis and vey hek with a nikana as effectively as any firearm.

 

 

 

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There's already difficulty in this game.  At the beginning, when you have nothing.

There isn't ever going to be a broad section of the game which cannot be made easy through simple progress. 

This is a game about progress, it establishes the rules very early on. Any piece of content can be made easier through acquiring mods, levels, applying forma and otherwise grinding.  If they were to suddenly make content where that wasn't a viable strategy, it would essentially be Warframe becoming a different game.

Might as well just add a dating sim at the end if that's what you want, or just go play conclave.

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15 минут назад, (PS4)sister-hawk сказал:

There are several problems here. Difficulty is not universal. What constitutes a fun challenge for some is a head-banging nightmare for others. Some players just have lower skill levels. Some players have disabilities.

Ugh can we please stop use disabilities as an excuse for dumbing down gameplay pls.

 

I have a friend who wound his hand on the saw and stayed with one finger on his left hand and he plays damn well in souls like games. Pretty hardcore player. 

Disabled people are not so pathetic and they do not need this special care.

21 минуту назад, (PS4)sister-hawk сказал:

There are several problems here. Difficulty is not universal. What constitutes a fun challenge for some is a head-banging nightmare for others

Why do heroic raids exist in Wow when only 1% of players can pass them? Why there are raids in Destiny 2? Why 9 star quests exist in MHW?

I’m talking about a special non-standard difficulty especially for players who can play it. This is the point that not everyone can pass it.

28 минут назад, (PS4)sister-hawk сказал:

If all you want is for enemies to hit harder and die slower, you have the power to make that happen now. Don’t use the meta. Take off some mods. Put on some dragon keys. You can make the game harder for yourself.

Well here we go again. Put a stick in your butt lvl advice.

if dragon keys give me at least 10% more resourses drops i will use it. 

Yes, I can complicate the game myself, but it will not give me any advantage for the additional complexity.

advantage for the additional difficulty thats the point.

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I don´t think it ever will, Warframe gives you the tools to absolutely decimate enemies, i´ve seen streamers radial blind a single enemy on screen. Difficulty is the measure of engagement a enemy gives you, but most warframe abilities are engagement deniers, so long as players seek for efficiency they will always shut down any engagement in the name of loot, so no matter how many tactics or weapons an enemy gains, they are always gonna be radial blinded, and weapons will pile as much damage as possible with the ideal to one shot enemies, you can see it now on RJ comments 3 shots is too slow for some players.

Its a weird thing, veteran players say everything is made for casual new players, while new players only see hardcore grinders accomplishing anything in game, maybe DE has cater to none but the median, and that is why a lot of people are disatisfied.

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When you have played the game so long that nothing is challenging, it is You who much create the challenge. No one is forcing you to use a min/max meta builds for every mission. I often have fun going sword alone, with no mods. 

Every mission type, every challenging task that has been created has a simple way to achieve success. Once that method is discovered, it becomes trivial as it is now viewed as “the only way to do it”. 

The problem you would run into with our community is that any new “difficult task” would quickly become easy with the right builds. 

My suggestion is always to slow down and enjoy the game a bit without being a try-hard about it. Look at Railjack. Most people think the only way to do it I say with archwing, when if you apply yourself a little more, you can have a powerhouse ship.

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9 minutes ago, Gasau said:

Well here we go again. Put a stick in your butt lvl advice.

if dragon keys give me at least 10% more resourses drops i will use it. 

Yes, I can complicate the game myself, but it will not give me any advantage for the additional complexity.

advantage for the additional difficulty thats the point.

If you're asking for challenge, advantages shouldn't be necessary, just nice.

The real problem though is with power abuse.  All nerfing our health and damage really accomplishes is the same as increasing the level of our enemies.  The game breaking mechanics have always been found in the power of our 1, 2, 3, and 4 keys (default keybinds.)  Until energy becomes more scarce (as in, back to relying solely on orb drops,) lowered caps on how much better abilities can become with mods, or even plain old cool downs, then powers will always be the reason the game is "easy."

Also and One has to admit, nerfing one's own abilities and stats only works in solo play.  Good luck getting everyone in public to play along.  There's usually always that one guy raking in 70-90% of the damage done per mission and not for the other three Tenno's lack of trying.

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Hopefully not. I'm here to chill and turn off my mind, not play Dark Souls.

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God I hope not.

Warframe is the game I go to to be godlike powerful and wreck mass quantities of trash mobs, while looking stylish. I want to kick ass and find there are just far too many names to take.

If I want difficulty I’ll find another game.

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il y a une heure, (PS4)sister-hawk a dit :

There are several problems here. Difficulty is not universal. What constitutes a fun challenge for some is a head-banging nightmare for others. Some players just have lower skill levels. Some players have disabilities. Any time you start talking about making the game harder for yourself, you may well be talking about making it unplayable for them.

Some people say Warframe should have optional difficulty levels, and I would be down with that, if the people who play on the highest difficulty wouldn’t demand better rewards, and you know they will.

Also, let’s be real here. Bloating enemy stats like health and damage (which is all that is accomplished by simply jacking the level up) isn’t really a solution to a lack of challenge. If power creep is a problem, creating higher level content that even further demands the over-powered meta is the opposite of the solution. If all you want is for enemies to hit harder and die slower, you have the power to make that happen now. Don’t use the meta. Take off some mods. Put on some dragon keys. You can make the game harder for yourself.

”But why should I stow away all the rewards that I worked so hard for???” Well I’m sorry, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Can people stop with their "nerf yourself to give you challenge" ?

What is that, an excuse to prevent dev criticism about difficulty, or egalitarianism dystopia ?

About difficulty, what is the problem if some can't handle it, and why playing a harder difficulty shouldn't give better rewards ?

Equality ? So as the actual society you prefer that people are all equal, but for that you need to reduce the requirement so everybody can handle it and the best are equal to the worse ? 

I think it's this kind of speech that gave us high RNG in the game, or at least confort the devs in that way of thinking, because difficulty is just time spent and RNG (except some very few game mods (Eidolon)), nor challenge since it could "hurt" some, so it's better to frustrate everyone than rewarding more the people who can and WANT.

 

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You lost me at "i really liked the grendel missions" but to answer your question, maybe not, DE does know how to make a good story with pretty graphics, as well as fun gameplay, but the only challenge in recent memory that they have put out that certain people  in the community really loved were raids, and those are gone. Many other game modes have tried to add challenge  ( arbitrations, kuva liches, elite sanctuary onslaught, high level railjack missions) but none have really caught on, originally i wanted a good challenge but it seems thats the one area where DE struggles, 

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I got a challenge weekly for 4 Lua puzzle rooms. I am not prepared. It has been so long since I did something tricky! 😧

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Nope because every time they do the community (or  the really loud ones) REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE till DE has to reign things in

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1 hour ago, Gasau said:

I am interested in the opinions of other players. Do you think there will ever be really difficult tasks in this game?

No.

As background, Warframe is not a game that challenges skill. Warframe is a game that rewards grind. Once you have advanced to the level of basic competency, skill is no longer a factor, and everything becomes a gear check. Either you have the right gear and kill all the enemies, or you don't kill them before they surround you and rip you to pieces. There's different combinations to have the "right gear" (Duration/Efficiency Ivara is just as valid as Strength Chroma) but you can't use unranked Warframes with unmodded weapons and no Z-kid to kill level 200 enemies, you need some form of the "right gear"

And the devs have NEVER had ANY inclination to change this paradigm. Well they did once, in the Exploiter Orb battle. But besides that they have strictly adhered to the gear check game design. So as I said at the start, no, I don't think we'll ever see true difficulty in this game

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Lvl 200 300 sorties could be nice, for some more challenging mission they could add a time counter: if the timer is over, you lose (like GR in Diablo III).

A timer would help a lot for difficulties.

At least for that you need a revamped reward table, more interesting, naturally, since it demand more effort.

 

 

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@Gasau

No, Warframe is not a difficult game, nor should it ever try to be. At this point the only thing Warframe needs is a proper endgame, and DE doesn't seem to know how to accomplish that.

Given the variety of weapons and frames we have available my suggestion would be to give players something truly random. Add Void Portals where you enter a portal using your Railjack and have to complete a series of objectives (using railjack, archwing, and afterwards having to enter a base/moon/planet). The more objectives you complete the better your reward. The catch is that the void portal loses stability over time and if you don't make it back through then you lose the bonus rewards (you still keep enemy drops).

This could have different difficulties with random modifiers, so if you want more of a challenge then you get more and more modifiers active as you play, similar to sorties. The goal being to present all content in the game, from Eidolon hunts to Defection, since you never know what the conditions will be on the other side of the Void Portal.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

There are several problems here. Difficulty is not universal. What constitutes a fun challenge for some is a head-banging nightmare for others. Some players just have lower skill levels. Some players have disabilities. Any time you start talking about making the game harder for yourself, you may well be talking about making it unplayable for them.

Some of us just want to play the power fantasy and explore everywhere without having to use X frame because our favorite is trash tier or too squishy to take one hit with 100% Slash proc which bypasses the shields for example, and yet there are people who keep saying "these enemies die too fast", well, making them last longer is the worst possible way to implement "challenge", not to mention having certain people say "this is a challenge" just because they play only on streams with unmodded stuff is pure cringe.

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1 hour ago, Intotsu said:

To me its not about levels but about the structure of gameplay. 
Now I enjoy this game, I really do. There is a lot to this game that I really appreciate and I like the overall gameplay to an extent. 

The issue I have is they give us an overabundance of tools and do not challenge us in using them. 
We have all these cool parkour skills, but the one mission where I was even remotely required to use them was the Lua spy mission. 

Operators are only useful due to arcane and anything related to the sentients. 

The existence of Umbra (and the idea of Echoes of Umbra) would be useful if there was any need to require the player to be in operator mode and fight separately from their warframe for any length of time.

Status effects can trivialize previously difficult content, not to mention certain Warframes themselves. 

The problem stems from balancing that with the whole power fantasy that this game also represents. And that is where things get difficult.

I wish I knew a solution, but I have a hard time coming up with ideas that wouldn't require fundamental changes to the gameplay that would turn a lot of people off.

 

I think an easy improvement could be to add in units like liches to normal random missions. Its not a lich YOU have to kill. It can be the lich of some random unknown tenno. But, with adding in the tank, an increase in fodder spawns to protect and support the lich. Perhaps even lock down that area. Wear the lich down and they leave and maybe drop something (bribe you to let them escape, or rather, throwing a shiney object at the tenno feet and escape while theyre distracted by it) or they kill everyone and laugh and leave (thinking theyve killed you for good) .

Maybe liches can have weaknesses to certain types of attacks or behavior. Like weak to slam or heavy attacks. Weak to shotguns or bows. Weak to aerial attacks or back attacks. Or weak to dmg from wf abilities or operator gear Etc. That wouldnt totally fix power creep but it might help justify it. Perhaps even have lich squads or a few at different areas in the mission. Like multiple simaris units in one game. 

I think the nox was kinda supposed to do that, like a more common juggernaut but most players tend to ignore them if the objective isnt right by it. 

 

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