will there be difficulty in this game some day?

[sxdrfgh]

The problem in mmo, is there wil lalways peopel for complaning about the lack of "difficulty" because they cannot flatter  their virtuel ego by being self proclaimed above everyone and can consider the other player  as trash. . before starting  changing video game, we should by changing the mentatlity of gaming comunities, being good in video game, will make you prettier, or stronger, or smarter IRL, you will always be the same, so stop wanting to pump your virtual-D, and start by  being normal a player.

 

[Troposphere6]

What would difficulty even mean in a game like warframe? Stripping us of abilities the corpus do that a poorly placed scrambus can be a nightmare. Reducing the amount of damage our weapons do? That's essentially making everything a massive health pools. Having places where we have to use brain power to overcome puzzles? Complicated to build and loose there shine once you have the solution like the spy vaults. What is it that's actually being asked for or even complained about enemies going down to fast? Warframe is a horde shooter isn't that the point?

[Morthal]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm not entirely sure this is actually going to make you happy, is the thing. "Scaling rewards" are a rallying cry for people who generally already have all the rewards, so it becomes a measuring stick rather than a source for actual rewards.

But looking at the 7x3 Tridolon meta, a measuring stick might be enough

My end game is rolling rivens, good weapons, bad weapons, I don't care if it's meta or not. Customization requires absurd amounts of plat ( riven capacity ) and Kuva. Arcane hunting isn't fun for me, the boss mechanics are outdated, boring and bug ridden. Was just in Kuva Disruption Relic mission and discussing the lack of reward for time spent--even 5%-10% gains per cycle would be welcome. 
For me though, I'd like an overall cost reduction per roll or a permanent increase to Kuva gains ( think always active resource booster ) when purchasing Riven slot capacity. Relics and credits, with the exception maybe for Index waves, don't need scaling rewards. And the base game resources? What a joke that's become, leaving only Nitain and *sometimes* Orokin cells to be used anymore...why? Because DE continually brings new and useless crap to grind that in less than a week, will serve no further purpose. Kuva however is infinitely useful and also one of the most neglected aspects of the game, aside from constant Riven Disposition changes. Seriously DE, just set ALL riven dispo to neutral(3) and be done with it, then focus on sorting out your piss poor base weapon values and power creep...give weapons unique modifiers and reasons to use one over the other.

Bah, ranting now. I haven't slept more than 2 hours in the last 28 😐 Time to head to Taveuni I suppose, that mission is a lullaby.

[Morthal]

2 hours ago, sxdrfgh said:

The problem in mmo, is there wil lalways peopel for complaning about the lack of "difficulty" because they cannot flatter  their virtuel ego by being self proclaimed above everyone and can consider the other player  as trash. . before starting  changing video game, we should by changing the mentatlity of gaming comunities, being good in video game, will make you prettier, or stronger, or smarter IRL, you will always be the same, so stop wanting to pump your virtual-D, and start by  being normal a player.

 

Apply this logic to the sciences. You and I wouldn't be typing out thoughts our on this forum if everyone was an apathetic consumer of low standards and deserter when faced with challenges. Disgusting. 
No. People with this logic are the reason EA, Bethesda, Ubisoft and all the other scumbags are ruining the industry for a quick buck. That lethargic attitude towards potential greatness, is tempting DE every single update. 

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Morthal

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Nope. Warframe just isn't that kind of game. 

[TARINunit9]

23 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Seriously DE, just set ALL riven dispo to neutral(3) and be done with it, then focus on sorting out your piss poor base weapon values and power creep...give weapons unique modifiers and reasons to use one over the other.

I mean I agree with you, but only when I reversed the order of those wishes. As for Kuva, yeah scaling Kuva specifically sounds like a good idea, really weird that the 100th survival siphon three hours in rewards the same amount as the first one you did thirty seconds in

Edited January 11, 2020 by TARINunit9

[Veridian]

Ah, more clickbait...

1. Wasn't Warframe a power trip?

2. On the other hand, try for once to not rush a crewship with Inaros.

3. Its just this type of game. Was Diablo II dificult because of fancy mechanics?

4. If you're looking for souls like combat, play a souls game. I know what to expect from the games I play. 

5. I myself enjoy that for once I'm an unstoppable force outside of cinematics. 

[Gasau]

2 часа назад, sxdrfgh сказал:

The problem in mmo, is there wil lalways peopel for complaning about the lack of "difficulty" because they cannot flatter  their virtuel ego by being self proclaimed above everyone and can consider the other player  as trash. . before starting  changing video game, we should by changing the mentatlity of gaming comunities, being good in video game, will make you prettier, or stronger, or smarter IRL, you will always be the same, so stop wanting to pump your virtual-D, and start by  being normal a player.

 

So, if i want some challenge in a game, I just want to pump my virtual-D?

 

I know this is very difficult to imagine, but you are not the center of the universe and some players really enjoy the difficulties in the games.

 

So please stop projecting your game impotence on others.

[IIDMOII]

I think the way the game is structured would prevent an all-in-one solution to difficulty. It isn't like a traditional RPG with level thresholds keeping you equal to allies and enemies. 

They seem very adamant to keep players in the same pool of content regardless of their "power level". It's beyond the point where we need to separate high level players from star chart players. Higher level players shouldn't have to sit through 20 waves of w/e before it becomes mildly entertaining.

I've always thought Diablo 3's rift system would be absolutely ideal for this game. The rift system is an incredibly simple and elegant solution to difficulty for such wildly different power levels of players. Everyone can find the sweet spot for their own difficulties and be rewarded appropriately. Everyone wins.

Something like sanctuary without the efficiency nonsense. 

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by IIDMOII

[Corvid]

Hopefully. Steve is aware that the intrinsic experience in this game is lacking (IE: The moment to moment gameplay lacks lasting satisfaction), and looking into difficulty is something they've put on the whiteboard as a long-term focus.

For all people like to say this game is a "power fantasy" where "you play as gods", that was really never part of the game's premise. For one, while you do play as a faction with precursor tech, the enemies have also had time to develop their own tech-bases in the interim between the collapse and the awakening, using said precursor tech as a springboard. The same assertions are also unsupported in gameplay. While we have a few outliers, most warframes and weapons fall off rather rapidly, and the devs have made adjustments that rein in a lot of the really broken ones.

Personally, I think we need a mods 3.0-type rework, reducing the emphasis on scaling our stats (and likewise reducing the extent to which enemies scale) in favour of more conditional buffs and utility improvements. Anything to make the gameplay more tense and dynamic.

And before anyone goes to the strawman of "this isn't Dark Souls", may I remind you that there are more than two extremes when it comes to difficulty balancing. It is more than possible to have a game that lets you feel powerful without letting you turn your brain off. Further, when you stop making continuous enemy and player stat scaling your basis for difficulty, you can implement things like difficulty selection.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, IIDMOII said:

They seem very adamant to keep players in the same pool of content regardless of their "power level". It's beyond the point where we need to separate high level players from star chart players.

That's a good thing, by the way. It prevents the game from slipping down the path of regarding more health and damage on enemies as challenge. It's not and never will be. It's a gear check, nothing more. Railjack enemies just proved that. It's also one of the reasons why I'm glad raids are gone and DE has continued to not lock out solo players from their content. It's kind of an assurance in a way, keeping them from just throwing 50 level 500 enemies at you and calling it endgame.

Warframe in its current state I'm not hopeful for becoming more interesting to play, mainly because DE seems to absolutely hate revising starchart content or basic units that you fight every day. That's the meat of the game, accessible by everyone. It's has been a never ending cycle of "add more elite units with more health and damage and relegate them to their content islands. Done." I remember back in the day when they were messing around with new unit designs to put in the bog standard missions, like artificiers or datalysts.

As someone said before, revising the combat is no task that has one solution. Warframe power levels are just as out of control as enemy combat is flat, and to a point the first even exacerbates the latter. The reason why I have no faith in DE doing anything to shake up the core game anymore beyond enemy HP and damage creep is because a big part of their revenue comes from plat sales driven by power creep. Rivens, new weapons that happen to be OP and never get nerfed day 1 but half a year down the line when the profit margins dwindle, or a new set of mods trivializing a part of the game mechanics(parazon mods for spy vaults).

There can be such a thing as endgame in warframe and doesnt rely on cheap MMO raid mechanics, but a more tactical and satisfying combat wont be part of that IMO.

[844448]

10 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

There can be such a thing as endgame in warframe and doesnt rely on cheap MMO raid mechanics, but a more tactical and satisfying combat wont be part of that IMO.

More tactical and satisfying combat can be found on warframes other than saryn, inaros, chroma and any "mindless" warframe. Banshee or Vauban for example need the build and skill to use it at the right place and at the right time or it's just a squishy frame that can't handle enemies beyond level 50 as the majority see them

[Furybone]

35 minutes ago, 844448 said:

More tactical and satisfying combat can be found on warframes other than saryn, inaros, chroma and any "mindless" warframe. Banshee or Vauban for example need the build and skill to use it at the right place and at the right time or it's just a squishy frame that can't handle enemies beyond level 50 as the majority see them

and most of those are hella energy dependent and stop working after lv 120 or so when everything is a nullifier or energy leech. That is its own issue however.

It isn't hard to get past 120 ish with them, just requires you to not be a potato, which is most of the community. We could give steve a carrot, a stick, and a string and i don't think he could get anyone to even TRY content past 100. This bothers me at a fundamental level. We can easily kill things upwards of 500 with the builds people are using but they refuse to use defensive mods because muh power strength or my favorite - "I used too many forma on this frame and cant slot anything other than this exact build and i refuse to admit i wasn't thinking"

[844448]

20 minutes ago, Furybone said:

and most of those are hella energy dependent and stop working after lv 120 or so when everything is a nullifier or energy leech. That is its own issue however.

It isn't hard to get past 120 ish with them, just requires you to not be a potato, which is most of the community. We could give steve a carrot, a stick, and a string and i don't think he could get anyone to even TRY content past 100. This bothers me at a fundamental level. We can easily kill things upwards of 500 with the builds people are using but they refuse to use defensive mods because muh power strength or my favorite - "I used too many forma on this frame and cant slot anything other than this exact build and i refuse to admit i wasn't thinking"

I myself rarely use defensive mods, only my fingers and eyes to see enemies around and move quickly across the battlefield to not get hit while using guns and abilities and it works fine

[Furybone]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

I myself rarely use defensive mods, only my fingers and eyes to see enemies around and move quickly across the battlefield to not get hit while using guns and abilities and it works fine

so your in ivara main?

[844448]

1 minute ago, Furybone said:

so your in ivara main?

Vauban and Nyx main now from Nezha, going to do a project with Banshee

[SenorClipClop]

19 hours ago, Gasau said:

Do you think there will ever be really difficult tasks in this game?

Not unless the amount of power we have to trivialize obstacles is unable to trivialize a difficult task. That, and if enough of the playerbase can cope with cycle of defeat and repeated attempts that difficulty entails.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, Furybone said:

and most of those are hella energy dependent and stop working after lv 120 or so when everything is a nullifier or energy leech. That is its own issue however.

It isn't hard to get past 120 ish with them, just requires you to not be a potato, which is most of the community. We could give steve a carrot, a stick, and a string and i don't think he could get anyone to even TRY content past 100. This bothers me at a fundamental level. We can easily kill things upwards of 500 with the builds people are using but they refuse to use defensive mods because muh power strength or my favorite - "I used too many forma on this frame and cant slot anything other than this exact build and i refuse to admit i wasn't thinking"

Forma, by its design, is restrictive. Players also cannot predict new mods, changes to content, or new game modes. So designing a build and then having umbral mods released changed things for the worse. The fact that umbral forma were not added for so long required players to limit their builds to use them.

It doesn't help that DE think difficulty means restricting our abilities either, as even rolling guard won't save you when you can't refresh what is keeping you alive. Weapons other than melee need very specific setups to deal with high level enemies too, which again limits build diversity. Even augments only do so much to help since they require a mod slot and often won't fit in the exilus slot.

In the end, the mod system is designed to fit into a premeasured box. If the box is too big or heavy for the postage you have, no amount of changing the mods will help; you need a different sized box. So players use the box that works the majority of the time instead of investing into the box that can only be sent to some of the places.

__________

Now if DE let us apply multiple polarites to the same mod slot using forma then all of this changes. So if a frame starts with 2 V polarities, but you only need 1 for most builds you could apply a forma to the second V slot and add a D polarity to it, allowing either V or D polarity mods to work. This allows players to add additional forma to builds that add diversity, not restrict it. Due to aura forma however, this would not apply to unique aura slots. Now adding forma to overwrite/remove polarities isn't required and players could diversify their builds, not be forced to restrict them.

Edited January 11, 2020 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Furybone]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Forma, by its design, is restrictive. Players also cannot predict new mods, changes to content, or new game modes. So designing a build and then having umbral mods released changed things for the worse. The fact that umbral forma were not added for so long required players to limit their builds to use them.

It doesn't help that DE think difficulty means restricting our abilities either, as even rolling guard won't save you when you can't refresh what is keeping you alive. Weapons other than melee need very specific setups to deal with high level enemies too, which again limits build diversity. Even augments only do so much to help since they require a mod slot and often won't fit in the exilus slot.

In the end, the mod system is designed to fit into a premeasured box. If the box is too big or heavy for the postage you have, no amount of changing the mods will help; you need a different sized box. So players use the box that works the majority of the time instead of investing into the box that can only be sent to some of the places.

__________

Now if DE let us apply multiple polarites to the same mod slot using forma then all of this changes. So if a frame starts with 2 V polarities, but you only need 1 for most builds you could apply a forma to the second V slot and add a D polarity to it, allowing either V or D polarity mods to work. This allows players to add additional forma to builds that add diversity, not restrict it. Due to aura forma however, this would not apply to unique aura slots. Now adding forma to overwrite/remove polarities isn't required and players could diversify their builds, not be forced to restrict them.

for the most part you don't need more than 2 or 3 forma with a few exceptions on non prime frames for them to function well into lv 200-300 content. dropping a forma into every slot is actually wasteful unless you want to build extra warframes of the same kind. But who does that anyway, other than that one guy that built 100 oberons.

weapons are a bit different because of the lack of an aura for extra points. Most of the popular ones only have 1 or 2 innate polarities and things like ignis don't have any at all. not to mention the high cost of some of them in the first place. So sure, throw 6 forma into a weapon. knock your socks off.

 

 

The difficulty problem is hard to address because most things simply die in less than 3 seconds which means they don't have a chance to hurt you. So when they stop exploding in 3 seconds or less (or your money back) a lot of people go splat. Which to the common person is a sharp spike in difficulty while to others its not even a speed bump.

Personally i would be happy with weekly challenge missions that go up to around 500 or so with reasonable rewards. i'm not asking for unique skins, im simply asking that the bad guys are strong enough to get people to work as a team.

[Corvid]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Forma, by its design, is restrictive.

That's kind of the point. You're trading flexibility for a power increase.

[Monolake]

You got railjack lol. DE cant balance so there will never be proper difficulty either. And if you remove all player power its not fun either because there are too many unfair/broken mechanics

[Monolake]

1 hour ago, Furybone said:

. So when they stop exploding in 3 seconds or less (or your money back) a lot of people go splat. Which to the common person is a sharp spike in difficulty while to others its not even a speed bump.

Personally i would be happy with weekly challenge missions that go up to around 500 or so with reasonable rewards. i'm not asking for unique skins, im simply asking that the bad guys are strong enough to get people to work as a team.

There are unkillable frames and infinitely scaling damage so nothing is difficult no matter what. They have to disable all you powers or mods to make it any challenging.

And on top of it average players start complaining whenever its something non-trivial so DE is afraid to give us even few optional high-level maps. 'Council alerts' - weekly challenge - were cancelled cause some people whined about them being too hard.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Monolake

[Miledude]

22 hours ago, Phatose said:

There's already difficulty in this game.  At the beginning, when you have nothing.

There isn't ever going to be a broad section of the game which cannot be made easy through simple progress. 

This is a game about progress, it establishes the rules very early on. Any piece of content can be made easier through acquiring mods, levels, applying forma and otherwise grinding.  If they were to suddenly make content where that wasn't a viable strategy, it would essentially be Warframe becoming a different game.

Might as well just add a dating sim at the end if that's what you want, or just go play conclave.

at the beagining lol, meaning you beat a game now #*!% off... hahaha

i dont see any progress in warframe i dont know what you playing, the only progress you can have is wen you start game to the moment wen you realise thre is noting left to do exsept grind to be even stronger, for what progres? You know how big is progres in this game, 4 mounts, that took newcomer how joined last year in my clan to get to max MR, beat everything possible in game, and now he's out, because there is no progress after that, you just wait for a miracle...

[RoninFive]

There is hard and there is obnoxious, the game is already medium difficulty when starting out, and only gets harder as you progress, unless you farm - in which case you have the resources to make it easier on yourself by getting better mods or ranking them up or building the best weapons and frames.

We also have side challenges that don't relate to our powercreep farming ways - gated progress in the case of eidolon and orbs, no mods in the case of grendel missions, permadeath on arbitrations, etc.

If you want there to be no way for the game to be easier, you basically want a lot of people to quit the game. Nothing is served on a platter by DE, you can work toward improvement and see a noticeable effect. Yes, those of us who reached the upper caps find everything to be fairly easy now, but we didn't get there overnight, and we can always choose to lose some of the powers we got, or try different builds that don't focus on nuking everything in 1 shot.

Take the flipside, new players who are just starting out arbitrations: flopping on the ground dead in the first 5-10 mins and everyone else complaining that they modded badly or whatever. AKA the one thing that makes anything either hard or easy in the game. Or railjack in veil, anyone who hasn't built for 1shotting max level boarders is doing it wrong, they're supposed to be powerful enough to repel the boarders, right? Well they don't get that powerful by default, and Railjack is available pretty early considering all the game content that those of us who are nukers had to go through before it was even released. A newbie going out with a low damage, low health, low armor railjack? Everyone leaves rather than deal with it.

The game can be hard, but no one wants to turn on hard mode.

Edit: if it took anyone 4 months to reach max MR, that's insane and close to 4 months of actual playtime. As in 4 months of active play. If you're not satisfied with 4 months full worth of content you've got something else going on.

Edited January 11, 2020 by RoninFive

[Venus-Venera]

Am 10.1.2020 um 21:35 schrieb Skaleek:

It's pretty difficult to log in after all the RNG that's been added in the recent months. I find it challenging to stay on Warframe when there are so many other games that value my time more.

Be careful what you wish for i guess, because they just delivered difficulty and challenge.

agree. best topic so far 😄

i tried to get at least of 1 khora part... and then i saw comments on wiki... one guy wasted 2 weeks (!!!!!!!!!!!!) and he still dont have full set.

but hey... i am coder! i better work 1 day and buy 10+ normal warframes then playing this super challenging and super interesting content.