Banshee quality of life changes (no rework required)!

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

Hello fellow Tenno. I see a lot of Banshee talk and how to videos on the rise. Banshee is bad, Banshee isn't end game, Banshee doesn't fit current meta, etc. Even the supporters want to see some changes. Banshee is near perfect and hosts a fast paced play style that keeps the game fun and engaging. The ONLY thing I find strange is that her abilities don't synergies as I feel they should. All of her abilities should work together making each one stronger and more viable ( without being OP).

Banshee is known for her 2nd and 3rd ability that's her bread and butter when it comes to damage and minor CC. While her 1st though not high in damage is one of the strongest, cheapest CC abilities in the game. Most people find her 4th to not be great and not fit her overall feel and always moving play style. I disagree and find ALL of her abilities and augments to be perfect for different situations.

However, Banshee's 1st and 4th ability should work with her 2nd, hear me out. "Sonic Boom" should do more damage when cast after "Sonar" similar to the blast of an explosive weapon would, in addition to taking impact damage upon colliding with the environment and other enemies. This improves it's damage maybe not but much but again I'm talking quality of life changes and how I feel it should work. The blast from her "Sonic Boom" should proc the bonus damage when "Sonar" is active.

Banshee's 4th causes the enemies to stagger but they never stubble and fall as they should and then(as it does already) slowly push them outward. If it did that again while on the ground the shock waves would be hitting the weak points while "Sonar" is active and doing the bonus damage. Side note, many people don't care for her 4th but it is one of the best team CC abilities (remember not every ability is useful in every game mode).

Now the 3rd ability...... It's stuns for a short period of time then leaves the affected enemies basically deaf for the duration. I think this is AMAZING! I do see a lot of comments about making it better...... This part is tricky because I don't but do agree (if that makes sense). Again quality of life changes, a busted eardrum affects more than just hearing but ones equilibrium as well, enemies should find it much harder to lock on to there targets and adopt a more spray and pray attitude. So I'm clear if you stand still you will still get hit A LOT, however is you strafe or run to one side then they will miss pretty much all of there shots. Now what makes this fun and not OP is like invisibility, if you run into another players path you can still get caught in crossfire. Also serpentine movement is ill advised (especially with heavy Gunner's) as you will be run back into the bullets trailing you.

I know many Tenno may look at this as a rework of sorts but I really feel that it's merely a quality of life change that has her abilities doing what I feel they should be doing in the first place.

Another side note, I feel enemies hit by her 1st ability should proc concussion but those are IPS thoughts for another post.

Well I apologise for the length of the post but I hope it's found interesting and thought provoking. 

Good journey Tenno!

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

Since she's called Banshee an ear piercing scream would make a bit more sense as well given her name. Stunning enemies and killing weaker ones, causing a slash proc maybe because their ears are bleeding too.  

I agree with your points that Banshee could use some love at this point, a lot of other Warframes have gotten some of their abilities changed up due to newer Warfames making them a bit obsolete. Banshee was kind of in a weird spot since Ivara and Ash have come around and changed up the stealth game. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by (XB1)Red Dough Boy

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

I do agree given her name, that's the first thing you think of.

Banshee to me is the teacher! She is the one that does what everyone else is doing without all the extra tricks that everyone else has! She is old school!  So I don't want a change to what she does because currently she does it all. However she has a very high skill cap when it comes to mastery. I love this about her! I just noticed while playing her that her abilities don't synergies and they should. 

[AuroraSonicBoom]

I've been saying that for literal years and thrown out pretty much the exact same suggestions. None of her abilities, including quake, needs to be reworked. They're all good and useful in their own right. I do think making her 4 automatically hit all weakpoints is a bit over the top. People always complain about her 4 being boring, which is true, so instead of hitting spots automatically, it could have a channeled mode where an additional, aimable cone of damage pulses can be sent out at twice the drain. All enemies hit by that additional damage, are hit at the last spawned sonar spot on their bodies.

For her first I agree with you hands down, but I dont think DE would work on changing their entire to support physical damage of ragdolled enemies being thrown against the wall. Still, Boom should always hit sonar spots, for how weak the damage is.

Now for her three, our opinions diverge. Again, DE would have to code a "stunned" state into their AI, which I think they wont do. It would be a very nice way to increase her survivability without giving her a straight up damage reduction like so many want, but I just cant see DE putting anywhere near that work into a frame they havent touched in 5+ years.

My idea for Silence went through a few iterations to streamline and minimize any dev work needed while keeping the spirit of the ability alive and making it syngerize not only with her other abilities, but certain weapons as well: Enemies inside the aura are significantly more vulnerable to blast and impact procs, and take longer to recover from them. The numbers here are obviously debatable, but I usually suggest something like 50% impact/blast proc vulnerability, and a 100% increase in stagger/KD recovery time. The latter one can even scale with power strength, but doesn't need to, really.

With these changes, her 2 and 3 would have a natural synergy with her 1 and 4.

One thing that would really push her from perpetually least played frame is for her first 3 abilities to become castable while on the move. For a frame that relies on staying in motion to not get hit, the lockdowns are a pretty significant drawback, especially in an age where new frames coming out barely suffer from it.

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

For her first I agree with you hands down, but I dont think DE would work on changing their entire to support physical damage of ragdolled enemies being thrown against the wall. Still, Boom should always hit sonar spots, for how weak the damage is.

I agree I do think they would make it hit the weak points but not go as far with the physics if the thrown enemies.

 

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Now for her three, our opinions diverge. Again, DE would have to code a "stunned" state into their AI, which I think they wont do. It would be a very nice way to increase her survivability without giving her a straight up damage reduction like so many want, but I just cant see DE putting anywhere near that work into a frame they havent touched in 5+ years.

True however if it follows the same mechanic as aim gliding does, many people don't realize the enemy struggle to Target you while aim gliding and mods like agility drift with the +6% evasion is better than given credit for. So if it worked in the same fashion I think they could do it without to much fuss.

 

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

My idea for Silence went through a few iterations to streamline and minimize any dev work needed while keeping the spirit of the ability alive and making it syngerize not only with her other abilities, but certain weapons as well: Enemies inside the aura are significantly more vulnerable to blast and impact procs, and take longer to recover from them. The numbers here are obviously debatable, but I usually suggest something like 50% impact/blast proc vulnerability, and a 100% increase in stagger/KD recovery time. The latter one can even scale with power strength, but doesn't need to, really.

I'm just going to go with YES on this one. With the numbers being negotiable.

All in all yes Banshee is amazing and the name of the game is synergy, that would just bring her entire kit together.

[Kaggelos]

The fact that many consider Banshee non-viable isnt her fault i believe. I think the problem lies elsewhere. Banshee, in my opinion, is a great stealth frame as well. But they way stealth adn spy missions work, she is severely outclassed by better stealth frames who have invisibility as a power. One way to counter this, invisibility being the go-to solution for stealth, is to make the power not so OP, by having some enemy units capable of locating you, even if you are cloaked. Chalk it up to thermal vision, kubrows or kavats smelling you, motion trackers, whatever u want. This way, you make Banshee viable again, for stealth missions at least. Cause, my god, her playstyle is sooo fun to use, but she just cant compete in some cases.

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

On 2020-01-12 at 6:47 PM, Kaggelos said:

The fact that many consider Banshee non-viable isnt her fault i believe. I think the problem lies elsewhere. Banshee, in my opinion, is a great stealth frame as well. But they way stealth adn spy missions work, she is severely outclassed by better stealth frames who have invisibility as a power. One way to counter this, invisibility being the go-to solution for stealth, is to make the power not so OP, by having some enemy units capable of locating you, even if you are cloaked. Chalk it up to thermal vision, kubrows or kavats smelling you, motion trackers, whatever u want. This way, you make Banshee viable again, for stealth missions at least. Cause, my god, her playstyle is sooo fun to use, but she just cant compete in some cases.

I agree that the frames that they have now just make things easier and easier and Banshee although amazing isn't a first choice for stealth.

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

Another thing to consider is that she doesn't need a change at all..... Hear me out, they could always improve her through a augment she wouldn't be the only one with more than three augments. Aside from the fact that her abilities should have more synergy, this could answer all issues. A augment for her 3 that disarms for the duration, that would increase survivability, as well as synergies with range and her other abilities. Another for her 3 that like the rakta dark dagger reduces the range enemies visual engagement range. Two new augments one to help stealth and one to help in the endurance runs. Of course I'm just spitballing things here but those two augments sound good to me.

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

More armor, more healthy and 3 needs to do more than pause the enemy for a few steps!!!

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

On 2020-01-17 at 8:38 AM, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

More armor, more healthy and 3 needs to do more than pause the enemy for a few steps!!!

You know that is cool yes she does sit low in those areas, however those things would be addressed if her 3 did more as you stated. She is meant to be squishy, she is meant to be high damage. A glass cannon and all of that is great except DE has created a number of frames that have both damage and defense, full stealth and CC. Banshee does all of that (minus the defense) but she is like Oberon when he was in that weird place were he was good but you always picked someone better. Now he is a great well rounded pick, yes there may be someone that does one thing better but he has a number of things he does. They didn't even make much of a change to him because he was already good. The quality of life change just put him right in line with the rest in his class. That's all I feel Banshee needs is that cherry on top to bring it all together. I do agree that it's in her 3 that the answer will be found tho. 

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

The more I think about it the more I like it. If you add a disarm, basically the Sonic frequency damage the fire mechanic for the duration that would be perfect. Why? I'm glad you ask! The disarm add survivability "period", also because it's on duration she still has to be mindful of her surrounding enemies. This prevents those that think it's OP because ones it goes down they will begin firing. So its not like Loki or Baruuk as it isn't permanent. This also keeps her old school feel (which I Love) because she still has to do all of things she I doing now she just has the increased survivability because she isn't being shot at from a distance. Now I know the comparison will sway some, however it fit to me at least. Now I'm a Limbo and Banshee main, much like Limbo and his change he was strong (though challenging to master for many) but it was difficult to take full advantage of him because the larger his cataclysm the money re vulnerable he became. That is EXACTLY what is happening with Banshee the larger her Silence is the more vulnerable she becomes. However adding the temporary disarm fixes all of that and keeps her fun and on the move. 

Let me know your thoughts!

[yles9056]

2020/1/11 AM10点45分 , AuroraSonicBoom 说:

None of her abilities, including quake, needs to be reworked. They're all good and useful in their own right.

I still think Sound Quake is an outdated ability and doesn't fit Banshee's play style at all.

• It doesn't work with stealthy play style.
• It's too slow even with Natural Talent which is a big problem for Banshee, the most fragile frame.
• It prevents Banshee from moving or doing anything else.
• As an AoE damage ability, there are many much better choices than Sound Quake.

Edited January 18, 2020 by yles9056

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

54 minutes ago, yles9056 said:

I still think Sound Quake is an outdated ability and doesn't fit Banshee's play style at all.

• It doesn't work with stealthy play style.
• It's too slow even with Natural Talent which is a big problem for Banshee, the most fragile frame.
• It prevents Banshee from moving or doing anything else.
• As an AoE damage ability, there are many much better choices than Sound Quake.

Ok I'll just tell you why I like it from my perspective.

Now my first statement is on off topic and not direct at you but I am using what you said to set it up.

First Banshee is a stealthy frame but is not a stealth frame like the others and we may be unfairly categorizing her. I say that to say silence makes it easier to kill without detection but stealth it is not. Silence makes it so you can have a whole fight next to a group and not alert them even if the enemies you encounter are alerted.

Back on topic sorry, I love "sound quake" for several reasons. One I view it a a team ability so past lower levels I don't use it solo much unless I'm using the augment. However with range you can guard any point. I use it in defection, interception and disruption when solo, excavation and defense when in a team. Also with the augment Banshee has the largest (I think) area CC in the game knocking enemies down in other tile sets. Now "knock down" isn't "kill" I get it but in objective based game modes (defection, interception) it's King or in her case Queen. In disruption the only target that I have to worry about is the demolyst because I have CC'd and killed everything else in the area (with augment). Without the augment I use it for team play to CC for my team. 

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

I do believe that Banshee has been put into a space she doesn't belong in (Stealth). Banshee is a CC frame like Nova or Nyx or Vauban. I believe that when you look at her in that regard then her kit makes more sense and she seems less out of place. Her 4 does make her stay in one place but it still fits her style of sound manipulation and is amazing CC. It just isn't a ability that you are supposed to use everywhere, in every mission is all. 

[yles9056]

@(PS4)Zero-0-P

A lot of frames can guard a location with cc abilities. But more importantly, they can do other things while doing cc. If the team needs cc, there are many much better options than Sound Quake.

Edited January 19, 2020 by yles9056

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

5 hours ago, yles9056 said:

A lot of frames can guard a location with cc abilities. But more importantly, they can do other things while doing cc. If the team needs cc, there are many much better options than Sound Quake.

Well her augment makes it mobile as well as increases it's range and adds flat damage. Also I agree there are many options for CC. Better? Now I'm not questioning your opinion. However there are multiple defensive frames, there are multiple frames with exalted weapons. What I'm saying is that we have many options. I know you don't think it fits or is any good, however there are many that think it's fine and love it. 

[yles9056]

1小时前 , (PS4)Zero-0-P 说:

Well her augment makes it mobile as well as increases it's range and adds flat damage. Also I agree there are many options for CC. Better? Now I'm not questioning your opinion. However there are multiple defensive frames, there are multiple frames with exalted weapons. What I'm saying is that we have many options. I know you don't think it fits or is any good, however there are many that think it's fine and love it. 

I'm not sure what Resonating Quake is meant for. The cast speed remains slow. With 260% power strength, it cannot kill lv.34 heavy grineer in one hit. Also, it replaces the continuous stun with knock down. So if you want to effectively cc a location, you have to spam Sound Quake frequently, which, again, is a rather slow ability.

I think increasing Sound Quake's default cast speed is a good start if DE doesn't want to replace it with a new ability. But it certainly needs more than that.

Edited January 19, 2020 by yles9056