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Throwback... "IPS" rework


(PSN)Zero-0-P
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Ok so let me start by saying I know you "slash" lovers are going to come for me but it must be done.

Ok they have talked about changes to "IPS" but there is a fear that ALL of the slash lovers are going to go crazy if they do. We must restore balance to the force!

First I feel the IPS gold mods should be dual stat mods (240/120). Double the damage and add 120% status chance. Currently the elemental counterparts are killing them in every way! I feel this will at least influence some more build variety.

Impact: Still staggers but heavy or subsequent procs of light impact will cause a "concussion" that stacks (to a cap of 2-3x) increasing the damage to a target from a sources for 6-8 seconds. The idea came from thinking about boxing. A boxer gets hit with a haymaker and is knocked down, they get up and have a standing 8 count, so I figured 6-8 seconds. Concussion is refreshed with more procs of impact. 

Puncture: Still weakens but now when a puncture proc happens a small area will light up on the target and hitting the target again in this/these spots will do "True Damage" ( total damage of your weapon). This will work on shielded enemies as well. I figured puncture is a armor piercing round and so it makes sense that it would work in that way. 

Deep breath.......

Slash:.........Still has procs but it no longer bypasses shields and armor. Slash procs on flesh will act the same but on shielded and armored targets they heavy or subsequent light hits will cause "Break". Slash procs on areas highlighted  by a break will take damage the way they normally would. 

I feel that this will balance and increase the use of "IPS" in the future and all of the procs have a synergy now. 

I'm going to keep this one short and stop here, I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Good journey Tenno!

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IPS statuses are weird. They're difficult to build for since the mods multiply against only the proportion of the base damage that is their element, so that even the Rare ones are generally going to give you less total damage than an elemental mod. The effects are less elaborate than those of elemental mods, and Puncture has a fairly useless status effect that simultaneously seems to have nothing to do with puncturing anything. Only Slash scales with the damage behind the proc, and bizarrely, the strength of the proc ignores physical and elemental damage mods, so adding slash mods to a weapon increases the relative chance of the proc, but not its strength.

I don't think anything needs any kind of nerf, though, including Slash and even with a caveat attached. A really careful Slash build on the right weapon can deal out a comparable amount of damage to a corrosive build on the same weapon against an armored enemy ... if you include the DoT, and don't mind it taking its sweet time to finish off the enemy. Armor is too much the ever-present problem to be solved in this game for Corrosive to have much real competition right now, and the last thing it needs is to lose what competition it does get from Slash.

I'd worry that adding 120% status chance to the Rare physical damage mods would just lead to them being used as a way to increase status chance. Like, +120% status would be a pretty sweet mod even on a pure elemental weapon, turn your Ohma into a Chromatic Blade or whatnot.

I think Puncture needs to be replaced with a more sensible proc effect, possibly increasing damage vulnerability like Corrosive or Viral and weak but stacking, and perhaps all status should just roll twice, once for physical and once for elemental effects, to emphasize that it's a physical weapon with an elemental effect attached and both are hitting the enemy, and just eliminate the idea of tradeoffs between them entirely. Beware the Corrosive / Slash builds in that scenario, though.

I have to agree that Impact could use a longer duration. Right now, it feels like Slash >> Impact >>>>>> Puncture, regardless of enemy level, and that doesn't seem to be intended.

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Does Slash necessarily need to be changed, especially if Puncture and Impact are refashioned to increase its efficacy? Players often run Viral with Slash builds because it enhances the Slash damage, despite the Viral procs taking away from the Slash proc frequency. If Puncture and Impact have similar "Slash-boosting" effects, even if those effects are secondary to their damage reduction / crowd control purposes, they'd likely end up in a better position by that tie-in alone.

As for the finer details of the rest, to go point-by-point:

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

First I feel the IPS gold mods should be dual stat mods (240/120). Double the damage and add 120% status chance. Currently the elemental counterparts are killing them in every way! I feel this will at least influence some more build variety.

If we're looking for build variety, I would rather see two mods, be it one 240% and one 120/120 or...whatever the numbers are.

I will say that 120% extra status chance is probably a hard sell. It can be interesting, e.g. it can free up an extra slot on a Tigris Prime viral setup. But that also runs the risk of some weapons being monochromatic in their builds. You get an entire mod slot on this particular Tigris Prime build compared to, e.g., the standard 60/60 one we have now, so why would you ever build it any other way? And that doesn't get into how those kinds of weapons would start to perform versus their crit counterparts. Status-based weapons could be a proverbial god mode compared to crit just by that change alone.

Not necessarily a bad thing based on that limited example (after all, changes to crit mods could come with it), but arguments can be made that that high of a status chance could do more harm than good.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

Impact: Still staggers but heavy or subsequent procs of light impact will cause a "concussion" that stacks (to a cap of 2-3x) increasing the damage to a target from a sources for 6-8 seconds. The idea came from thinking about boxing. A boxer gets hit with a haymaker and is knocked down, they get up and have a standing 8 count, so I figured 6-8 seconds. Concussion is refreshed with more procs of impact. 

That it increases damage is interesting, but I'm not sure how intuitive it might be. I'm almost tempted to say that the extra procs on Impact and Puncture should be reversed. I.e., weakened opponents take more damage (as they're weaker and deal less damage), concussed opponents have weak points in their shields and armour, like cracks caused by...well, a hard hit. I say that because sound cues can also be leveraged, like ice breaking sounds for impact procs on a weak point emphasizing that it's shattering the shield / armour. It also matches some with Shattering Impact.

That's just me.

One thing I might suggest is a change to the animation so that the duration they're stunned isn't explicitly tied to the animation. It makes the stun itself annoying, as follow-up shots can be a bear to land just because of impact procs, which would undo the damage bonus they might impart (and would really affect the Puncture damage increases in a negative way). If they're much more stationary, that probably helps a lot.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

Puncture: Still weakens but now when a puncture proc happens a small area will light up on the target and hitting the target again in this/these spots will do "True Damage" ( total damage of your weapon). This will work on shielded enemies as well. I figured puncture is a armor piercing round and so it makes sense that it would work in that way.

I mostly addressed that in the comment about Impact. However, I will say making it translate the weapon's entire damage to True Damage, especially with those changes to Slash, very much runs the risk of Puncture being the new Slash. Yes, it requires consistency in aiming...as long as you don't pepper them in so many Puncture procs that their entire body becomes a Christmas tree and even a Heavy Calibur Strun from across the map can nuke a 150 Bombard because of the armour bypass. Maybe that just requires some extra details or a limit on how many proc areas can be generated, which could affect the size of a proc area, etc. etc. - something to consider.

EDIT: I should also say that I don't see how this synergizes with Slash, at least how its described. Does it forcibly enable Slash procs through protections? That'd make some sense but I don't see that mentioned.

---

One thing I noticed you mentioning that I wasn't sure of:

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

heavy or subsequent procs of light impact

Do you mean heavy melee attacks? Or do the IPS procs get a "heavy" variant at >100% status chance?

Edited by Tyreaus
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I'm really not sold on the weak-points idea itself. It's got that problem from Banshee's sonar to start with, that a crit headshot is worth 4x a crit body shot - although that's kinda irrelevant in this case when you're bypassing armor and damage type resistance. But if the new game is hitting heavies in the same spot again for massive damage, I dunno, it's a pretty massive change to gameplay, and I don't know if it helps to define what IPS's job is exactly and why it builds so differently from elemental damage.

And yeah, whatever the system, if there really must be a status that reduces enemy damage dealing, make it impact, not puncture.

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4 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

EDIT: I should also say that I don't see how this synergizes with Slash, at least how its described. Does it forcibly enable Slash procs through protections? That'd make some sense but I don't see that mentioned.

Yes that is what I meant. So a slash proc on a puncture proc would cause the bleed to bypass shields and armor.

 

4 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Do you mean heavy melee attacks? Or do the IPS procs get a "heavy" variant at >100% status chance?

The second, yes IPS procs would have a heavy variant ( haven't worked out the threshold yet)

To everything else as the comments are similar. I agree that weaken should be on impact. Oh wait......

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I'm really not sold on the weak-points idea itself. It's got that problem from Banshee's sonar to start with

I did think of that and that could turn out to be a damage disaster sending damage off the charts, I was trying to stay true to the nature of puncture or armor piercing round but I definitely see your point.

DE  talked about changing IPS and how they work, slash values drastically reduced, impact ragdoll effect (please don't do that to impact damage). Anyway slash is just strong with no balance to it. Impact damage is my favorite damage type the stagger is great in long endurance runs and I like the opposing idea of weakening enemy verse buff self. Puncture just needs help hahaha. 

However I see what everyone is saying this was a rough draft with a lot of red marks I'll have to make many changes.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

impact ragdoll effect (please don't do that to impact damage).

God, no kidding. Stagger is extremely useful, just brief; ragdoll is actively counterproductive. I can just see crowds of enemies bouncing around like lottery balls - although the first thing that came to mind was the Catchmoon with its guaranteed impact procs, and at the very least, that's one gun that wouldn't be losing headshots or having too much trouble hitting. X ]

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If you want to address the mechanics of IPS there's two ways you can go about it. The first, and better way is to address the entire damage system overall.

There are multiple pitches on this idea, for example one where IPS becomes the main sources of direct damage, single elements become sources of damage over time and mechanical stuns and slows and combined elements are sources of things like radial damage or faction specific weakening.

The other route is to simply buff the potential damage of each Status up to the level of Slash, which can ramp up to deal massive damage over time, but is a base damage type not effective against one faction, neutral against another and effective against the last.

Just be sure to remember this:

"When both physical and elemental damage types are present on a weapon (such as a base physical damage weapon with elemental mods equipped), physical damage types are weighted four times as much as elemental types in the proc calculation, making elemental procs relatively rarer." - Status Effects (there's a helpful table about damage distribution on there to help).

Oh, and that IPS as actual damage types are not really being out-done by elementals, specific damage types are weighted unfairly because of their Status types. Don't forget that. Mechanical effects of Status are the more important thing here.

So, your thread here does seem to be the simple route; buffing the status types to try and equal Slash for desirability in the weighting and encourage players to try builds without heavily weighting to elemental types.

It has the right theory, but the wrong execution in my mind.

For example, the main reason that Impact is considered un-desirable is because of its Stagger. It's a mechanical effect that throws off aim and prevents players from landing crit hits reliably. Now, animation staggers are likely never going to leave the game, but what you point out about damage increases is not wrong.

To counter the problem, try this: Impact will cause a stagger, the first single instance of damage dealt to a staggering enemy will count as a 4x critical multiplier regardless of where it hits. What this does is turn the entire staggering enemy into a crit-hit box, with a greater multiplier than a headshot would have gotten. It takes those handy bullet-hose weapons, or fast-attacking melee, and grants them the ability to spike their damage over and over, and it also means that single-shot weapons with heavy Impact, such as snipers and bows, will actively benefit from their status type rather than suffer from it.

Puncture is considered irrelevant because of how damage scales, a 30% decrease in damage is simply not a factor when the game scales to the point that an enemy can one-shot you with a glancing hit. Giving Puncture a damage increasing proc is smart, but think of the way the other two scale; one is a hit and tick over time, the other is a hit and then a bigger hit before going back to the regular hits again, what Puncture needs is a damage increase that acts differently to these two.

Try instead; a Punctured enemy is weakened physically and takes a small amount more damage. Further Puncture procs compound up to a natural cap (the idea being that you can only make defenses have a hole in them, at that point you're hitting them for 'full' damage the whole time) but to balance it against the other high-damage types the debuff is permanent. So one proc might be 10% more damage, but a second is a further 5% on top, and then a third is 5% on top of that. So from 100 damage dealt the first hit, the second would deal 121, the next 133, the next 146, the fifth 161 and the sixth would cap out (at an example of 5 Puncture Procs) at 177 damage. So you would be able to ramp up to deal an additional 77% damage after hitting consistent procs.

In this way you have Slash, where you hit, tick, hit again, two ticks going, again, three ticks going, and so on as long as you're proc'ing consistently, and the damage over time means every proc'ed hit deals 245% damage to the enemy as True damage, it would still be the best at bypassing defenses.

You have Impact, where you hit and then smash for massive damage the second hit, normal damage for the animation's duration, then repeat for as long as you like.

And you have Puncture, which ramps up to a permanent damage boost over the course of multiple procs, meaning every hit does increased damage, but not as massively increased per hit as the other two.

See? And they would combo together on weapons with full IPS, where if you actually hit an Impact, then proc'd Slash on the boosted hit, you would deal a Bleed of 245% the 4x Critical damage from the Impact. And as that ticked, you could proc Puncture on the next hit so that you could repeat the process for even higher damage.

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If you want to change IPS, look to railjack for an idea how they might be doing that.

Ballistic/plasma/particle will be the new impact/puncture/slash, or in layman's terms, damage-out reduction/armor reduction/damage-in increase.  No more bonuses or resistances, the only consideration is status effects.  Of course there's an effect in there no one will give a $#!% about.  The community should probably think-tank what ballistic should really do, keeping in mind incendiary is already the stacking(?) DoT so bleed is redundant.

That should give them some room to pull back on armor and armor scaling a little bit, but also trust that between plasma and particle (assuming they'll be on nearly every weapon,) ensure players won't be dealing with something too tanky because of its armor but because of it's raw HP pool is just that damn big, and even then stacking particle procs work as a miniature viral of sorts.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

If you want to address the mechanics of IPS there's two ways you can go about it. The first, and better way is to address the entire damage system overall.

There are multiple pitches on this idea, for example one where IPS becomes the main sources of direct damage, single elements become sources of damage over time and mechanical stuns and slows and combined elements are sources of things like radial damage or faction specific weakening.

The other route is to simply buff the potential damage of each Status up to the level of Slash, which can ramp up to deal massive damage over time, but is a base damage type not effective against one faction, neutral against another and effective against the last.

Just be sure to remember this:

"When both physical and elemental damage types are present on a weapon (such as a base physical damage weapon with elemental mods equipped), physical damage types are weighted four times as much as elemental types in the proc calculation, making elemental procs relatively rarer." - Status Effects (there's a helpful table about damage distribution on there to help).

Oh, and that IPS as actual damage types are not really being out-done by elementals, specific damage types are weighted unfairly because of their Status types. Don't forget that. Mechanical effects of Status are the more important thing here.

So, your thread here does seem to be the simple route; buffing the status types to try and equal Slash for desirability in the weighting and encourage players to try builds without heavily weighting to elemental types.

It has the right theory, but the wrong execution in my mind.

For example, the main reason that Impact is considered un-desirable is because of its Stagger. It's a mechanical effect that throws off aim and prevents players from landing crit hits reliably. Now, animation staggers are likely never going to leave the game, but what you point out about damage increases is not wrong.

To counter the problem, try this: Impact will cause a stagger, the first single instance of damage dealt to a staggering enemy will count as a 4x critical multiplier regardless of where it hits. What this does is turn the entire staggering enemy into a crit-hit box, with a greater multiplier than a headshot would have gotten. It takes those handy bullet-hose weapons, or fast-attacking melee, and grants them the ability to spike their damage over and over, and it also means that single-shot weapons with heavy Impact, such as snipers and bows, will actively benefit from their status type rather than suffer from it.

Puncture is considered irrelevant because of how damage scales, a 30% decrease in damage is simply not a factor when the game scales to the point that an enemy can one-shot you with a glancing hit. Giving Puncture a damage increasing proc is smart, but think of the way the other two scale; one is a hit and tick over time, the other is a hit and then a bigger hit before going back to the regular hits again, what Puncture needs is a damage increase that acts differently to these two.

Try instead; a Punctured enemy is weakened physically and takes a small amount more damage. Further Puncture procs compound up to a natural cap (the idea being that you can only make defenses have a hole in them, at that point you're hitting them for 'full' damage the whole time) but to balance it against the other high-damage types the debuff is permanent. So one proc might be 10% more damage, but a second is a further 5% on top, and then a third is 5% on top of that. So from 100 damage dealt the first hit, the second would deal 121, the next 133, the next 146, the fifth 161 and the sixth would cap out (at an example of 5 Puncture Procs) at 177 damage. So you would be able to ramp up to deal an additional 77% damage after hitting consistent procs.

In this way you have Slash, where you hit, tick, hit again, two ticks going, again, three ticks going, and so on as long as you're proc'ing consistently, and the damage over time means every proc'ed hit deals 245% damage to the enemy as True damage, it would still be the best at bypassing defenses.

You have Impact, where you hit and then smash for massive damage the second hit, normal damage for the animation's duration, then repeat for as long as you like.

And you have Puncture, which ramps up to a permanent damage boost over the course of multiple procs, meaning every hit does increased damage, but not as massively increased per hit as the other two.

See? And they would combo together on weapons with full IPS, where if you actually hit an Impact, then proc'd Slash on the boosted hit, you would deal a Bleed of 245% the 4x Critical damage from the Impact. And as that ticked, you could proc Puncture on the next hit so that you could repeat the process for even higher damage.

Ok so this is a more polished version of where I was trying to go with my idea, so thank you!

9 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

If you want to change IPS, look to railjack for an idea how they might be doing that.

I agree that I am interested in the direction they have gone with the damage and procs

 

15 hours ago, (XB1)Orcus Imperium said:

fix enemy armor scaling before killing slash procs

I dig where you are coming from but I'm one of "those" people, you know the ones trying to get the enemies scaled to our MR hahaha. I also think that the infested should have not armor but a hardened skin and be much stronger than the grineer are. The grineer are tough but also the easiest to manage. Though most the might find me crazy the Corpus are the real issue which is why they keep nerfing them (DE please stop that by the way). That and with the way corrosive and heat work, corrosive projection and all the armor isn't much of a issue, that's in my humble opinion though.

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I know my ideas may not have been the best but I was hoping to spark a think-tank that would see those flaws and help me perfect something or add new ideas I had yet to think of. Some just out right said no hahaha and that's cool but no isn't a idea. I know most people think DE just does what they want anyway but I do believe they listen more often than not. So thanks for all comments made and future ones.

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No, don’t nerf slash, buff impact and puncture:

The bullet that hits a puncture proc should have all of its damage bypass the targets armour, it should also go straight through the target like a mini punch through. 

Impact should do a buffed stagger effect, and if it hits another enemy it should do a portion of the first targets health as true damage. Meaning it kinda turns into a human catapult. 
 

Slash is awesome because it doesn’t care about Enemy factor, it is great at them all, we just need to see more variety. The real problem is the other types suck at everything, even Crit because elements do more damage and have better bonuses to enemy types.

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On 2020-01-17 at 11:12 AM, (XB1)DA ZACHYZACHY said:

No, don’t nerf slash, buff impact and puncture:

The bullet that hits a puncture proc should have all of its damage bypass the targets armour, it should also go straight through the target like a mini punch through. 

Impact should do a buffed stagger effect, and if it hits another enemy it should do a portion of the first targets health as true damage. Meaning it kinda turns into a human catapult. 
 

Slash is awesome because it doesn’t care about Enemy factor, it is great at them all, we just need to see more variety. The real problem is the other types suck at everything, even Crit because elements do more damage and have better bonuses to enemy types.

Ok I agree to most of this, well maybe all minus the impact idea (not that it's bad). 

Ok first yes impact and puncture should be buffed. Also my issue with slash is that it is the only damage of all damage types that doesn't care and to a high degree so much so that we have things like "hunters munitions". Also toxic is supposed to do the same thing and yet it not even mentioned. Mainly because it is one part or the combo needed for corrosive, however I feel like that just shouldn't be.

Now is you can create balance without nerfing slash I'm all for it but there is no balance right now. So much so that you can go slash with high status or crit build (with hunters munitions) and do just fine not caring until you do super long endurance runs. You can't really do that with any other damage type. However again if you can buff the rest without touching slash then don touch slash I'm all for it.

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On 2020-01-19 at 3:13 AM, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

Ok I agree to most of this, well maybe all minus the impact idea (not that it's bad). 

Ok first yes impact and puncture should be buffed. Also my issue with slash is that it is the only damage of all damage types that doesn't care and to a high degree so much so that we have things like "hunters munitions". Also toxic is supposed to do the same thing and yet it not even mentioned. Mainly because it is one part or the combo needed for corrosive, however I feel like that just shouldn't be.

Now is you can create balance without nerfing slash I'm all for it but there is no balance right now. So much so that you can go slash with high status or crit build (with hunters munitions) and do just fine not caring until you do super long endurance runs. You can't really do that with any other damage type. However again if you can buff the rest without touching slash then don touch slash I'm all for it.

Toxin isn’t used in corpus because it doesn’t do true damage, it does toxin damage which is great as it bypasses shields entirely, but it is affected by armour. So it’s garbage high level.

Slash is amazing, definitely op on some weapons, but there is no nerf in the world that’s going to stop that other than making slash absolute S#&$e.

If other IPS damage types were powerful and had interesting statuses then it would be a lot more interesting to build a weapon. It’s not like DE doesn’t buff damage types, heat is amazing now, a big difference from it being an exclusively Infection weapon.

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