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Avionics Capacity Needs A Procedural Increase


Enexemander
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I'll try to keep this simple and sweet. 

We need an incremental increase in power in Railjack, so that the feedback loop of Play Railjack -> Get More Powerful -> (Have more fun when you) Play Railjack. That's the loop the regular game runs on. In Railjack, it doesn't. I have a Sigma III reactor. I'm capped on Avionics. It doesn't matter if I get more Dirac, because I can't upgrade my Avionics. It doesn't matter if I get new Avionics, because I can't use them.

My only recourse here is to hope for a 2-4% drop on a Vidar Reactor and probably a 2-4% RNG chance that the reactor actually has a decent roll. Due to the resources involved, even if I got one over 50, it'd have to be close to cap to be worth my time to repair it due to the crazy resource cost.

So the gameplay loop is just broken, guys. I have no reason to do Railjack anymore. I can't upgrade the guns, because those resources... *drumroll* would need to be used to upgrade and repair the reactor.

It just doesn't work. Avionics Capacity needs an incremental increase to cap, and you need to either take the RNG out of it completely, or be so generous that the result is the same (like 50% drop chance on a Vidar Reactor if the roll is RNG anyway).

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Imo the best thing would be to replace the extra avionics capacity with increased effectiveness for battle avionics. Every Mk3 reactor would give +100 avionics capacity.

This way vidar reactors would still be very desirable, but it wouldn't be as important to get one with a good roll. It would also give some scaling to the damage abilities, so they still feel useful in the veil.

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4 hours ago, Enexemander said:

My only recourse here is to hope for a 2-4% drop on a Vidar Reactor and probably a 2-4% RNG chance that the reactor actually has a decent roll. Due to the resources involved, even if I got one over 50, it'd have to be close to cap to be worth my time to repair it due to the crazy resource cost.

You can scrap wreckage that you repaired. 

Also they announced that they're bumping the drops to make it a more reasonable grind. 

And sorry, but no. As with evolution, you don't need advance from the lowest form, directly to the apex in a single step. You can go gradually, one step at a time, improving as you go, and thus making it easier for you to advance over time..... Wait a gosh darned second, that sounds eerily familiar.... 

4 hours ago, Enexemander said:

We need an incremental increase in power in Railjack, so that the feedback loop of Play Railjack -> Get More Powerful -> (Have more fun when you) Play Railjack. That's the loop the regular game runs on.

Your refusal to do the partial upgrade, that's what's preventing you from experiencing the loop. 

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You can go gradually, one step at a time, improving as you go

 No he can't, it's random.

However, i think he's making undue fuss about the resource costs. There is a somehwat high initial entry cost, but you now get back 80% from a built part. Once you get started, each replacement you're only farming for 20% of the listed cost.

Edited by schilds
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This was actually shown as a feature during the tennocon 2019 demo. 8:10

It looks like you could use resources to boost the railjacks performance for a certain number of missions temporarily. That's exactly the kind of resource sink we need once you have your maxed out MKIII whatever. Boosting your crap reactor to a less crap reactor by sacrificing resources would be a nice temporary solution until you get a better one.

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They should at least place the reactors, shield arrays, and engines in the drop table of the derelict vault.

And I don't mean as a rare drop. It should guarantee one of them to drop, although the current drop table for it is random trash. Just randomize which one.

Would be much more bearable to farm that.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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11 hours ago, schilds said:

 No he can't, it's random.

However, i think he's making undue fuss about the resource costs. There is a somehwat high initial entry cost, but you now get back 80% from a built part. Once you get started, each replacement you're only farming for 20% of the listed cost.

Yes, it's random, but I saw a post where someone graphed the probability of getting a reactor, as well as what we can call a "better than Sigma", as well as what we can go ahead and call "top tier". They provided an estimate of the number of runs needed (with the original drop rates) for a 50% of the population to get it, and for 90% to get it. 

(Pretty sure I can find the post if you want me to. It had a graph and everything. Do I need to though? Because I figure you're already familiar with it.)

 

 

And here's the thing, the odds of me getting a better than Sigma, is pretty good (I currently have more than one so in a purely anecdotal sense it matches the expected outcome) but the odds of me getting a top tier are significantly less. I'm expecting to need to do many more runs to get one of those. Yes it being RNG means that I might have gotten the best from the start, but that's just not very likely, now is it? 

But in the mean time I can build one or more of the "inferior" options, just as prior to getting those I built the Sigma mki and mkiii, which are both marked upgrades from the base reactor. 

Yes it's random, but unless we hit the jackpot at the very beginning, we would most likely be following the very "play - progress - play" loop that they were talking about, and claiming can't be done. 

"Some of them are rewards that can mean the difference between 6 minute missions and 30 minute missions."... Sounds familiar? Is moving from a 30 minute mission, to a "sub 30 but greater than 6", to a 6 minute mission not play - progress - play? Will this not be the norm for the majority of us who choose to play? 

No, not every drop will be an upgrade, but that's expected and totally normal. 
 

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The point is that there is no control over progress. You say "gradually, one step at a time", but whether you can take a step or not (or whether it is gradual or not) is at the whim of a dice roll. Each mission you play does not reduce the distance to the goal (that belief is called the gambler's fallacy). In fact, you never know how far away from the goal you are. You don't know how many steps there will be. That unpredictability also makes it difficult to plan or strategise.

Now that you've triggered this train of thought, it'd be interesting to do the maths to simulate the expected variation in upgrade steps taken across the playerbase. While everyone may end up in the same place (90+ Mk III Vidar reactor), some people will spend not just far more time, but also far more steps and hence resources, getting there than others. Which means his point about waiting until a 90+ reactor drops before spending resources repairing it is not entirely irrational.

Players are being faced with a "choose your poison" dilemma (those always put people in a good mood, much like trying to figure out which politician to vote for :-P) . Do they spend and potentially waste more resources and farming time than they need to, or do they tough things out with worse equipment for some unknowable duration?

On the other hand: 

  • At the point an upgrade does drop we're just talking the normal predictable grind for resources,
  • You get 80% of your resources back.
  • A quick sweep with Particle Ram around wrecks when you see them (and the occasionaly asteroid) leaves you with tons of resources.

On that basis, choosing not to take the upgrade when it drops is just overthinking things. Don't stress yourself out, just upgrade as and when it happens :-P.

 

Zetki parts might be a little different. They're a fairly common drop so upgrading straight away every time may very quickly end up wasting a lot of time and resources. Better to hang onto them and only upgrade once every several drops or at given thresholds

Edited by schilds
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19 hours ago, Enexemander said:

So the gameplay loop is just broken, guys. I have no reason to do Railjack anymore. I can't upgrade the guns, because those resources... *drumroll* would need to be used to upgrade and repair the reactor.

I said the same thing: 

Capacity cannot be a dice roll, it has to be linear progression based or static.

My suggestion to fix: 

 

 

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6 hours ago, schilds said:

The point is that there is no control over progress. You say "gradually, one step at a time", but whether you can take a step or not (or whether it is gradual or not) is at the whim of a dice roll. Each mission you play does not reduce the distance to the goal (that belief is called the gambler's fallacy). In fact, you never know how far away from the goal you are. You don't know how many steps there will be. That unpredictability also makes it difficult to plan or strategise.

Now that you've triggered this train of thought, it'd be interesting to do the maths to simulate the expected variation in upgrade steps taken across the playerbase. While everyone may end up in the same place (90+ Mk III Vidar reactor), some people will spend not just far more time, but also far more steps and hence resources, getting there than others. Which means his point about waiting until a 90+ reactor drops before spending resources repairing it is not entirely irrational.

You have, what, a 3% chance of getting something better than Sigma - which could mean a reactor with 51 capacity instead of 50. And only about a 1 percent chance of getting something in the +80 range. Might as well wait for a good one rather than spend resources on anything less than that. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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