Hildryn Rework (Theme / Skills / Balance / Teamplay)

[selig_fay]

9 часов назад, Damaein сказал:

I agree the dragon key build is stupid. Which is why I nerfed it. It isn't fun. I also agree that some Arcanes are quite a bit power creepy in many circumstances. However, Aegis is in no way overpowered compared to many other arcanes (really only the useless ones). It's actually pretty ok with how it's designed.

The problem is that you are nerf playstyle of people who play correctly with big shields. Arcane aegis supports dragon keys build because when you have 300 shields, you get 15 standard regeneration + 60 from arcanes aegis = 75 shields / s without any mods. In 3 seconds, you regenerate 225 shields. (15 + 0,05 * 300) = 30 * 2,7 (From shield regen mod.) = 81 + 60 from arcanes aegis = 141 shield/s. In three seconds, you will regenerate 423 shields. This gives you infinite invulnerability.

The problem is not in the passive ability, the problem is either in arcanes aegis, which is more effective with small shields, or in the mechanics of restoring shields. If you want the nerf build of the dragon keys, you can do a simpler thing, namely, take the shield recovery system from railjeck, because a whole percentage is taken there. But I think it's worth applying to all frames.

9 часов назад, Damaein сказал:

I made a small video of a variety of grineer L60 as I afk. Most people playing Hildryn aren't having a problem with normal enemies. Especially at this level. Also, I would never be standing here and taking damage like this, and I could get a LOT more survivability if I wanted.

The problem is that I can easily refute your video. I don't think you can check all the mob combinations that can kill you quickly. But OK. I also see that you are not using hp and armor and because of this all your problems with toxin and slash now. Also, you constantly spend your shields on ability. Now feel like a newbie and remove arcanes and adaptation. Still tanking so well? 

The problem is that now that I'm properly distributing gear and specters, As you have shown, you have no problems with level 60 mobs, because your equipment is strong. I have a lot of survival on any level, including these mad 9999 levels. Because right now, it's a game mechanic like nidus stack. This is what I can do, this is what I can use. The timer is something I can't control. And I'll have to hide to survive. You know, it's a nerf. I have nothing against your concept, except that you nerf a passive ability that will significantly reduce your survival rate against overlvl. 

And if you think that no one else is capable of gate mechanics, then I will point you in the direction of nezha, which implements it more easily than Hildryn without any timers and for the entire team. Yes, you need to play correctly. But nezha must hide for 3 seconds to get the gate. Hildryn in your concept - 15 seconds. And I can say that even if you make a mistake and mobs were able to do damage when you are invulnerable, you can use dangerous weapons to reduce your defense points in order for the gate to work before your hp runs out. Now, Nezha is still a better tank than Hildryn. Your concept may change that, but you just make a mistake in one thing, which makes Hildryn much weaker than it is now.

 

 

 

[CopperBezel]

It'd be very hard for a Nezha not to out-tank a Hildryn. Give each of them a typical build (with or without Adaptation since they benefit equally) and Nezha has about half of Hildryn's eHP before casting his 90% DR. And it's not like restoring health with Life Strike or Magus Repair is significantly more difficult than restoring shields with Pillage. (That's not to say that Hildryn in her present state doesn't have advantages Nezha doesn't, as they're very different frames, but Hildryn just isn't a tank at sortie levels and up with any build that isn't abusing her shield gate.)

[Damaein]

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

The problem is that you are nerf playstyle of people who play correctly with big shields.

You already have to hide at extreme levels of the game with a big shield build.

If I have 4000 shields, and Aegis my regen would be (15+.05*4000)*2.7+60 = 640.5. That would take a minimum of 6.24 seconds to refill if you didn't get hit after invulnerability and you didn't use a single ability. Both of these being somewhat unlikely. So you are already hiding at minimum 3.24 seconds when you lose your shields right now in a big shield build.

I would maybe be ok with lowering the cooldown to 10 seconds, but I believe having permanent invulnerability is bad game design. This nerf hits dragon key WAY harder than a big shield build. 

Secondarily, the taunt is actually something I put in to increase tanking consistency. Adaption, Arcane Aegis and Barrier both proc off of being hit so they would fall off less. It's not just a support mechanic.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

The problem is that I can easily refute your video. I don't think you can check all the mob combinations that can kill you quickly. But OK. I also see that you are not using hp and armor and because of this all your problems with toxin and slash now.

I picked an assortment of enemies. Including enemies that are good against shield frames. I am using Rapid Resilience so I rarely have a problem against toxin or slash procs. I would use Prime Vigor if I had it for a little more HP cushion and bigger shields as well. I get along just fine without it though.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

Now feel like a newbie and remove arcanes and adaptation. Still tanking so well? 

The problem is that now that I'm properly distributing gear and specters, As you have shown, you have no problems with level 60 mobs, because your equipment is strong.

Are you of the opinion that a naked weapon using no arcane, frame, or mods should be able to kill all levels of content. I don't hold that view. I also don't think frames should be capable of tanking all levels of play out of the box. Even if they are a tank frame.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

Now, Nezha is still a better tank than Hildryn. Your concept may change that, but you just make a mistake in one thing, which makes Hildryn much weaker than it is now.

In my version, with Haven projection and augment, Hildryn would be far tankier than her current iteration while also being better at support. This should allow her to tank Arbitrations and Sorties with relative impunity without relying on a shield gate crutch (which basically leaves her without the ability to even use abilities).

This isn't about Nezha or whether I know all the shield gate mechanics in the game. The only place you would actually see a loss is at the most extreme levels of the game where you have to shield gate (which I believe is a bad mechanic in general).

[CopperBezel]

I don't play Hildryn a lot, but my usual build for her has focused on Pillage for its armor strip and regeneration advantages, with as much power strength as I can fit into a full efficiency build. Since the speed of regen is more important than the range, as just a few high level enemies will put me into overshields from nearly flat and the armor strip is strong enough that it's most useful on just a few nearby enemies that I can kill before draining the next bunch, I've been building with lower than 100% duration, because 2s might be plenty of time for my shields to be depleted from damage. Plunder removes some of the weirdness by depleting enemy shields or armor linearly and being able to drain something from health if they're not present, meaning I wouldn't have to think of enemies as exhaustible batteries of shield regen I have to ration out; I wouldn't find myself in the position of being mobbed by dozens of enemies I've completely or almost-completely depleted of armor and having no regen but no way to kill them quickly enough either, as I managed to do in a Lech Kril assassination sortie once, and less completely in many other situations. 

Could Plunder just return shields on contact with enemies instead of waiting for the pulse to return, though? That would make building for a higher duration viable, taking advantage of the longer range of the higher-duration pulse instead of that being a disadvantage, and mean you'd be less likely to drop into your shield gate in the interim since the restore would be bit by bit instead of all at once at the end.

[selig_fay]

2 часа назад, CopperBezel сказал:

It'd be very hard for a Nezha not to out-tank a Hildryn. Give each of them a typical build (with or without Adaptation since they benefit equally) and Nezha has about half of Hildryn's eHP before casting his 90% DR. And it's not like restoring health with Life Strike or Magus Repair is significantly more difficult than restoring shields with Pillage. (That's not to say that Hildryn in her present state doesn't have advantages Nezha doesn't, as they're very different frames, but Hildryn just isn't a tank at sortie levels and up with any build that isn't abusing her shield gate.)

I'm only talking about the gate mechanics. In this they differ not much, only hildryn gets 3 seconds, and nezha 1 second, but this does not change the essence, it stops the lethal damage. Shields are very easy to restore using Dark dagger, for example, or shield osprey, but it requires gameplay. The timer does not require gameplay and is a worse alternative in my opinion. 

Make the nerf shieldgate up to 1 second invulnerable, I won't worry about it, because that's enough time for me to deal damage to restore shields, or use my operator to retreat to shield ospray, or use shield pullege.. But not a timer, please. I will have no choice but to wait for the cd.

[Damaein]

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Could Plunder just return shields on contact with enemies instead of waiting for the pulse to return, though? That would make building for a higher duration viable, taking advantage of the longer range of the higher-duration pulse instead of that being a disadvantage, and mean you'd be less likely to drop into your shield gate in the interim since the restore would be bit by bit instead of all at once at the end.

I agree that this would be better outright in terms of strength. Though I think, thematically, it makes more sense on the return given the name of the skill. Kind of like reaching your arms out slowly and then snatching everything.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Shields are very easy to restore using Dark dagger, for example, or shield osprey, but it requires gameplay. The timer does not require gameplay and is a worse alternative in my opinion. 

Make the nerf shieldgate up to 1 second invulnerable, I won't worry about it, because that's enough time for me to deal damage to restore shields, or use my operator to retreat to shield ospray, or use shield pullege.. But not a timer, please. I will have no choice but to wait for the cd.

I think I see why you hate the cooldown now. You don't like dragon key + Arcane Aegis invulnerability build, presumably, because it requires little input and just a gear setup.

But I would argue shield stealing on Rakta Dark Dagger to spam invincibility cycles is not that far off of Decaying Dragon key setups. It's exceedingly easy to execute (melee is pretty easy) and requires a specific weapon instead of a key / arcane. To me the main difference between these setups is playstyle and doesn't affect power level that much.

The entire reason I nerfed the invincibility the way I did was to limit invincibility to a specific uptime (3/15 = 20%). Invincibility spamming is too powerful and is easily abused. Being immune to damage 100% of the time isn't good game design. Just like someone holding down a melee auto attack macro doesn't make someone skilled.

I would hazard a guess that the intended purpose of this passive is to be a last resort defensive stop gap. It is not meant to provide permanent complete invincibility. Whether you make it that from a Specter, Arcane, Mod, Weapon, or otherwise is irrelevant. In fact, I'd change that feature back, if someone from the warframe design team tells me it was intended to provide 100% invincibility up time.

[CopperBezel]

17 minutes ago, Damaein said:

I agree that this would be better outright in terms of strength. Though I think, thematically, it makes more sense on the return given the name of the skill. Kind of like reaching your arms out slowly and then snatching everything.

Yeah, I definitely get that it's an outright buff and that the way it presently works is thematically more consistent. It just ends up having a big impact on her survivability IMO. I know she can recall the pulse with a recast, so she doesn't lose much for having a high duration, but she doesn't gain much, either. 

[Damaein]

16 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, I definitely get that it's an outright buff and that the way it presently works is thematically more consistent. It just ends up having a big impact on her survivability IMO. I know she can recall the pulse with a recast, so she doesn't lose much for having a high duration, but she doesn't gain much, either. 

I was trying to sort that out a little through the use of the Plunder Projector. I played around with sending a new pulse every 2 or 3 seconds. Still not sure which I would rather. Having duration while using projector doesn't hurt your shield return after the first wave comes back. The way I intended it was so that new waves can be sent out while old waves are still in transit. So you always get the a new wave back every 2 or 3 seconds (whichever I land on) and duration truly just affects the range of enemies effected.

This of course is limited to when you are using projectors. But does that ease your concern? I realize it may not be apparent with how it looks on paper.

[CopperBezel]

It does, yeah, that makes sense. Cool. = ]

[selig_fay]

8 часов назад, Damaein сказал:

The entire reason I nerfed the invincibility the way I did was to limit invincibility to a specific uptime (3/15 = 20%). Invincibility spamming is too powerful and is easily abused. Being immune to damage 100% of the time isn't good game design. Just like someone holding down a melee auto attack macro doesn't make someone skilled.

Look at this ability:

Спойлер

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Invisibility

This makes you invisible, allowing you to avoid damage very easily. You can abuse this very easily, 100% time. Does this make someone skilled?

Look at this ability:

Спойлер

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Wil-O-Wisp

This ability makes you invulnerable 100% of the time simply because you are spam 2. Does someone skilled do this too? And if you think that the nullifier removes this invulnerability, then you are mistaken.

What about Protective Dash?

I have already given you 2 ideas about how to balance this passive ability to reduce the power, but keep this active gameplay. A timer is not an option. The current system must be saved. Work either with shields or with invulnerability time.

But you should understand that trying to balance things based on the warframe balance is a big mistake, because you are balancing things based on nothing.

[Damaein]

9 hours ago, zhellon said:

Look at this ability:

  Hide contents

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Invisibility

This makes you invisible, allowing you to avoid damage very easily. You can abuse this very easily, 100% time. Does this make someone skilled?

No. It doesn't. However, Invisibility is not invincibility. I agree it's very strong but it does have drawbacks (unlike permanent invincibility).

• You can be energy starved (Eximus, etc)
• You can be one shot by AoE (quite easily since you rarely build defense on stealth frames)
• You can be one shot by random stray shots
• You aren't splitting damage with rest of team (they get hit more)

9 hours ago, zhellon said:

Look at this ability:

  Hide contents

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Wil-O-Wisp

This ability makes you invulnerable 100% of the time simply because you are spam 2. Does someone skilled do this too? And if you think that the nullifier removes this invulnerability, then you are mistaken.

What about Protective Dash?

Playing the game where you have a mandatory spamming of one button isn't fun. Dropping into Operator (especially out of necessity) every 5 seconds, isn't fun. I get that they are in the game this way now, but if you prefer to play that way, I find it odd. Operator in general isn't fluid and half of the abilities are useless while the other half are OP. How many times have they reworked and will rework operator because of reasons like this.

9 hours ago, zhellon said:

I have already given you 2 ideas about how to balance this passive ability to reduce the power, but keep this active gameplay. A timer is not an option. The current system must be saved. Work either with shields or with invulnerability time.

Like I said previously, I do not like permanent invincibility. It's a bad mechanic and should have massive drawbacks (being unable to move, being unable to attack, draining massive energy, or health, etc.) Hildryn get's it for free automatically when necessary. It should not have a high uptime.

You say you hate Dragon Key build and an arcane should be nerfed. But a build where you hold Melee Auto attack macro to get permanent invincibility is somehow ethically superior because "active gameplay". I don't agree.

As well, it doesn't even remove the playstyle. Your shield stealing melee build will still be good. You just won't have invincibility all the time.

9 hours ago, zhellon said:

But you should understand that trying to balance things based on the warframe balance is a big mistake, because you are balancing things based on nothing.

This sentence doesn't exactly make sense. But I think I understand the sentiment. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[selig_fay]

1 час назад, Damaein сказал:

But a build where you hold Melee Auto attack macro to get permanent invincibility is somehow ethically superior because "active gameplay". I don't agree.

I don't do macro. I just use it as needed. Dark dagger doesn't do much damage.

1 час назад, Damaein сказал:

As well, it doesn't even remove the playstyle. Your shield stealing melee build will still be good. You just won't have invincibility all the time.

Like I said, if you don't like invulnerability all the time, just nerf invulnerability itself. I would even settle for 0.2 seconds of invulnerability, I just like that random high damage won't kill me. And this is something that I can maintain thanks to the mechanics. The timer spoils everything. This is my opinion.