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Archwings - why all the " nerfing" ?


Tenno76856
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Now, strictly speaking im not biggest fan of archwings (submersible missions are yuck... No idea how they are in RJ), and i know they need an overhaul/rework, however, i enjoyed their base functions for what they were - but first they killed Itzels blink and now plan to nerf ameysha (why exactly?. Isnt as if its kit is that great)?. Its not even as if its meta ( hahaha) - if anything there isnt anything remarkable about even if it feels more solid than Odonata imho. ??????!!!!

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Amesha very much is meta in RJ due to the enemy damage and projectile tracking being so hilariously overtuned that the only way to survive for more than five seconds is to be completely invincible all the time.

As for why they're nerfing it, I don't know. I guess they want Warframe to cease being about exciting high-speed combat (archwing) and focus more on piloting a slow, lumbering, clunky ship, or sitting in a turret, or putting out fires and watching canned animations of activating crafting consoles (railjack).

Edited by SordidDreams
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10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Amesha very much is meta in RJ due to the enemy damage and projectile tracking being so hilariously overtuned that the only way to survive for more than five seconds is to be completely invincible all the time.

you could say that about all the end game content since fortuna

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Yeah. Scott said some things are getting buffed, others are getting overhauled and others are getting nerfed. But we just focus on the nerf part.

If I have to sacrifice Amesha to make all Archwings viable and surviveable in the Railjack missions, I will take it.

I want to use my Elytron there without getting my ass destroyed damnit.

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7 minutes ago, Toppien said:

you could say that about all the end game content since fortuna

True, but there are a lot more tanky warframes than there are tanky archwings. Arcanes and Adapatation also help a lot to make semi-tanky ones tanky enough to be viable.

A lot of people say DE has no clue how to balance, but that's not quite true. In reality DE has no clue how to design gameplay mechanics. Hitscan bullets, invisible AoE damage, and aggressively homing missiles can't be avoided through skillful play, so of course the only viable frames and archwings are those that can simply face-tank the damage. Balance is impossible while those things exist.

Edited by SordidDreams
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22 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I guess they want Warframe to cease being about exciting high-speed

... Warframe's a "Power Fantasy Tactical Shooter". The "Fast" factor is an added bonus.

Now, one thing is having people use the stuff, but its completely different when players exploit it... And, lets face it, I haven't seen anyone "use" something, only "exploit" that something until DE decides to bury the thing simply because players fail to know the difference between "using" and "exploiting"...

No, I'm not referring to exploits that end up in banning people. I'm referring to exploits that players do and that they know they're not going to be banned for doing it.

... There are signals everywhere that entice players not to exploit, but they still do and do it harder.

 

Taking in consideration Amesha's superiority in RJ, Archwings are generally very weak against RJ content. No, its not because of its weaponry, its because of their general armor values. Amesha is used by most people exactly because of its 1st ability, which technically grants invulnerability against a certain number of hits taken. That, however, doesn't mean that the player in question is unable to survive with any other Archwing, because I've tested it myself and its perfectly possible to survive without Amesha. The difference is, you actually have to dodge incoming fire...

Random player: "What about the Crewship's explosive turret fire?"

Longer dodges, faster reactions, faster Archwing! (Hyperion Thrusters, for those that are unaware of what it actually is)

For those that actually think that moving in a straight line is the answer in RJ, when flying an Archwing, then you're an expert at dying quickly and blaming Amesha for its superiority while hoping that DE doesn't do a thing about it.

Never move in a straight line, especially when you have the freedom of movement to do it.

Random p14y3r: "Pfft, you don't know what you're talking about. stfu gtfo noob."

True, I don't know what I'm talking about... But I'm not the one dying while flying an Archwing on RJ content. I guess that's the difference between me and that p14y3r, since that p14y3r's always either leeching while being afk or straight up sleeping in space... or causing host migrations on purpose.

Edited by Uhkretor
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1 minute ago, Uhkretor said:

Warframe's a "Power Fantasy Tactical Shooter"

It is not and never has been.

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

you actually have to dodge incoming fire

Except you can't, because almost every projectile is an aggressively homing missile, and enemies surround you and shoot at you from all sides.

3 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I don't know what I'm talking about...

Finally something I can agree with.

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6 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Random p14y3r: "Pfft, you don't know what you're talking about. stfu gtfo noob."

6 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

True, I don't know what I'm talking about...

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Finally something I can agree with

7 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

But I'm not the one dying while flying an Archwing on RJ content. I guess that's the difference between me and that p14y3r, since that p14y3r's always either leeching while being afk or straight up sleeping in space... or causing host migrations on purpose.

 

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29 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

As for why they're nerfing it, I don't know. I guess they want Warframe to cease being about exciting high-speed combat (archwing) and focus more on piloting a slow, lumbering, clunky ship, or sitting in a turret, or putting out fires and watching canned animations of activating crafting consoles (railjack).

I would suggest for you to try an actually good Railjack, because it has better speed (with piloting skills) and it kills enemies faster than Archwing.

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29 minutes ago, NigglesAU said:

Its not even as if its meta ( hahaha)

Amesha totally is the meta, for reasons @SordidDreamsmentioned.

Actually fighting stuff in Archwing is far more trouble than it's worth. Enemies move as fast or faster than you. When Archwings had hitscan attacks this wasn't a problem, but now it's a huge hindrance. Enemy damage is also super high, so Archwing combat is inherently a losing prospect for the player

The meta shift is obvious: the less time you stay in Archwing, the better. While other Archwings have power sets to effect the enemy, Amesha affects herself. When you don't need to shoot and only need to get from point A to point B, it's hard to beat invincibility

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14 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

I would suggest for you to try an actually good Railjack, because it has better speed (with piloting skills) and it kills enemies faster than Archwing.

I have a good one. A pair of 50%+ Vidar Cryophons, +87 reactor, 5704 armor, Void Hole, Munitions Vortex, decent engines, literally all the speed mods that exist, 10/8/8/8 intrinsics... it's still slow and clunky and not very exciting. Yeah, with the avionics that are most likely getting nerfed next it kills faster than archwing, especially after the archgun nerf... but it's nowhere near as fun.

Edited by SordidDreams
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7 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Warframe's a "Power Fantasy Tactical Shooter"

Correction: Warframe is a Power Fantasy LOOTER Shooter, it's not tactical at all just pull the trigger, swing your melee and use your abilities until everything is dead then pick up the loot.

9 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

The difference is, you actually have to dodge incoming fire...

Agreed, i play RJ with the Itzal and so far i've only gone down a handful of times because i stopped moving or because of homing missiles.

Speaking of:

10 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Random player: "What about the Crewship's explosive turret fire?"

As stated in hotfix 27.0.8: "Crewship projectiles no longer seek after Archwings! They’ll still attempt to fire at you but they will no longer seek and one-hit-KO your Archwing."

which means if you get hit, it's because you didn't dodge them.

Piccolo would be disappointed.

 

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20 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Yeah. Scott said some things are getting buffed, others are getting overhauled and others are getting nerfed. But we just focus on the nerf part.

If I have to sacrifice Amesha to make all Archwings viable and surviveable in the Railjack missions, I will take it.

I want to use my Elytron there without getting my ass destroyed damnit.

The problem is that, as it stands right now, Amesha is only just invulnerable enough to survive. You have to make sure you are keeping a close eye on your energy and timers in order to survive.

So if DE is nerfing that, and bringing other archwing's survivability up some, then we don't have great hope that any of them will actually be survivable in Veil level content.

As it stands now, every single archwing would need either damage immunity (Amesha/Revenent style), damage block (Volt/Garuda style), or damage resistance (Trinity/Mesa style) in order to survive, with only immunity and resistance being reliable enough to feel good in a mission type where most incoming damage has an AoE component. Now, if Elytron gets scaling damage and a replacement for Core Vent that gives max 95% DR, then sure, it will be viable. But as of right now, all archwing abilities deal too little damage to be effective in the Veil, so we only look at survivability, thus we only use Amesha, thus DE thinks it's a problem.

I am afraid that this will be like when Pablo looked at ESO and saw only Saryn being used, and thought 'Wow, she must be way overtuned if she's the only one being used'. It's not that Saryn, or Amesha, are overtuned for what they are being used for. The reason they are the only thing in use in ESO/Railack is because they manage to fit within the limitations of the game mode they are used in, while all potential competition is prevented by the limitations of the mode. If invisibility/Core Vent/flares/frontal shields actually worked in Railjack, we might use those archwings instead of Amesha. If ESO didn't have an arbitrary timer on casting your 4, then players would use something other than Saryn for DPS. In both cases, the problem lies more fully on the game mode than on the tool that fits that game mode.

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3 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

If invisibility/Core Vent/flares/frontal shields actually worked in Railjack, we might use those archwings instead of Amesha. If ESO didn't have an arbitrary timer on casting your 4, then players would use something other than Saryn for DPS. In both cases, the problem lies more fully on the game mode than on the tool that fits that game mode.

I mostly agree, though I'm not sure there is a problem at all. Of course specific gear dominates in specific modes. Different tools for different jobs, you know? Thinking that Saryn needs a nerf because of her dominance in ESO is like thinking that screwdrivers need a nerf because nobody is using hammers to drive screws. I'm not a game dev, but expecting numerous frames with specific abilities to be used evenly across numerous game modes with specific gimmicks seems more than a little naive to me.

3 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The problem is that, as it stands right now, Amesha is only just invulnerable enough to survive. You have to make sure you are keeping a close eye on your energy and timers in order to survive.

I do actually like that, though. It's been a very long time since I had to pay attention to anything in WF. I don't know that tiny numbers in the corner of the screen should be the focus of that attention, but at least I'm doing something other than brainlessly going through the motions. For the vast majority of content I either chat with friends when playing in a group or watch youtube videos on my second screen when playing alone. If you focus, you win. If you don't, you lose. Surely that's how it should be in games...?

Edited by SordidDreams
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57 minutes ago, Toppien said:

you could say that about all the end game content since fortuna

FTFY.

Fortuna might have been the first really egregious example, but even the old void towers which made Endurance the popular end-game was like this sooner or later. The Meta for long endurance runs is always to reduce engagement with enemies as much as possible, in ways such as invisibility, frost's snow-globe blocking all incoming attacks, or crowd-controlling everything so they don't ever get the chance to attack you.

Fortuna only started being egregiously noticeable for a simple reason: The average EHP of players varies immensely. It's the same problem as Grineer vs everything else. We build our weapons for Grineer because they're the only enemies that need us to, brute force can simply power through most other enemies. The same applies to DE when they're designing enemies to face us. My Limbo Prime Setup has about 2,975 EHP, whereas an Umbral Inaros build I found kicking around Tactical Potato's channel (probably not even the actual max, but decent enough) has around 26,357 EHP, before both Adaptation and double Arcane Grace work their magic. There's no way for DE to reasonably balance a reasonable time to kill between those.

The same, of course, applies to archwings vs railjacks. Railjacks seem to have much more EHP than Archwings do.

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I think there are three separate components to this discussion:

  1. Amesha I do think deserves to be nerfed on its own merits -- even without Railjack, the Archwing is notorious for being the frame you take to Salacia, plop three Benevolent Decoys in quick succession at the objective and become essentially unable to lose. Similarly, its current point of strength in RJ is that its 1 turns the player invincible, which doesn't really make for great balance either.
  2. On the flipside, Railjack itself is still a mess of balance, and needs many more changes. Amesha is picked not simply because it's the strongest Archwing, but because it's essentially the only Archwing that makes the mode playable past a certain level. Enemy fighters deal far too much damage relative to the health of Archwings, and Itzal's stealth, which could've perhaps allowed it to compete, often just doesn't work. If Amesha is to be nerfed, DE needs to make especially sure that they retune enemies so that players don't get randomly one-shot quite so often.
  3. Amesha is the strongest Archwing not just because it's so powerful, but because the design of the other Archwings is just so awful. Itzal's slow, almost stationary kit is horribly ill-equipped against the excessively fast enemy fighters in Railjack (why are they faster than our Archwings again?), and its replacement 1 ability is as pointless as it is redundant. Odonata's forward-facing shield doesn't fare well in an environment where the player can and does get attacked from literally all sides, and its missile damage is piddly. The same goes for Elytron, a nuke Archwing whose nukes deal very little damage, and require contact with solid objects in an environment largely made up of empty space. The latter two also have these dedicated anti-missile abilities as part of a minigame that never took off or contributed positively. In short, every Archwing we have right now besides Amesha is so bad they likely all need drastic reworks of their own, which I don't think will be solved by making Archwing modular.

TL;DR: Yes, Amesha does need a nerf, because it's currently broken in its current state by making the player largely invulnerable. However, if DE is to nerf Amesha, they need to implement some severe further rebalancing to Railjack, because that Archwing is one of the threads the mode is hanging by right now, and without it more players are likely to be driven away by the excessive enemy damage and accuracy. Additionally, every Archwing besides Amesha is currently various flavors of crap, and they all need redesigns. Ideally, the rebalance and/or reworks should happen before the Amesha nerf, just so that when it does happen, it won't hurt quite as much.

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2 hours ago, NigglesAU said:

but first they killed Itzels blink and now plan to nerf ameysha (why exactly?. Isnt as if its kit is that great)?. Its not even as if its meta

Itzal's Blink gave it a serious mobility advantage over other Archwings, which made it the only one people ever used in open worlds, and it would have been the same with Railjack. Amesha's getting nerfed because you can basically become immortal with it, and it's the only one that can survive a beating from railjack enemies: taking any other Archwing, even the supposedly "tanky" Elytron is suicidal.

we've needed an Archwing rework for a long time, but DE have had no real reason to go ahead with one since the majority of the playerbase barely tolerate Archwing and many hate it: they've never gotten the Flight System to feel right, the abilities are terrible, and the missions themselves are boring at best and frustrating at worst (I've yet to meet anyone that openly likes Rush or Pursuit missions.). every Archwing needs buffing drastically, save for Amesha, and the flight system needs to be made more fluid and less clunky. I just hope DE will actually go ahead and do it. they say they will.

 

Edited by (PS4)robotwars7
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I'd be more comfortable with some rebalancing IF they had taken the time to improve and perfect archwing before railjack and the didn't. So all the issues just carried over into railjack so I have no faith in any tweaks as they feel like they're coming from a place of ignorance considering how untouched archwing has been until now.

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2 hours ago, NigglesAU said:

Now, strictly speaking im not biggest fan of archwings (submersible missions are yuck... No idea how they are in RJ), and i know they need an overhaul/rework, however, i enjoyed their base functions for what they were - but first they killed Itzels blink and now plan to nerf ameysha (why exactly?. Isnt as if its kit is that great)?. Its not even as if its meta ( hahaha) - if anything there isnt anything remarkable about even if it feels more solid than Odonata imho. ??????!!!!

It's because DE was thinking star wars and some players were thinking gundam. Lol!

Since the archwings are literally warframes with added wings, the heavy artillery from space ships proved too much so the archwings have to be beefed up to handle the heavier combat. I wouldn't be surprised if DE changed the sizing of the modular archwings to better fit the new functionality. Perhaps full body suits?

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2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I do actually like that, though. It's been a very long time since I had to pay attention to anything in WF. I don't know that tiny numbers in the corner of the screen should be the focus of that attention, but at least I'm doing something other than brainlessly going through the motions. For the vast majority of content I either chat with friends when playing in a group or watch youtube monoitors on my second screen when playing alone. If you focus, you win. If you don't, you lose. Surely that's how it should be in games...?

I don't have a problem with it either. The problem is that DE sees that and says they are going to nerf it. It is already a case of 'keep a careful eye on it and if you mess up you're dead', and DE says they are going to nerf it. How? How do you make survival that requires perfect care in number tracking less 'easy' without making it no longer reliable?

Players should always have a reliable way to avoid death in games, with only a few exceptions (e.g. a plot in which you 'die' and are then revived by an NPC somewhere else to recover, learn stuff, and continue the fight). Death outside of the story should be limited to failure, not to random chance or insurmountable challenge. You shouldn't die just because the devs don't want you to survive. This is my problem with Kuva Liches, and if DE isn't really careful it will be my problem with archwing in Railjack too.

As it is right now, if I die while using Amesha, I know it was my fault for not doing it right. I ran my energy too low, or let it get too high, or I didn't keep my 1 up, etc. I don't see how DE can 'nerf' that and still keep it fair to the players.

Edited by -AoN-CanoLathra-
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59 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Players should always have a reliable way to avoid death in games, with only a few exceptions (e.g. a plot in which you 'die' and are then revived by an NPC somewhere else to recover, learn stuff, and continue the fight). Death outside of the story should be limited to failure, not to random chance or insurmountable challenge. You shouldn't die just because the devs don't want you to survive. This is my problem with Kuva Liches, and if DE isn't really careful it will be my problem with archwing in Railjack too.

That's a very old-school understanding of games, one that I 100% share and agree with. Sadly the modern gaming industry doesn't. When I saw Steve say they made the liches kill you because "you kill everyone, so that's why we did that inversion", I wanted to throw something at the screen. That was like a gas station owner saying "we put water into one of our pumps because everyone always just pumps gas". B*tch, that's what we come to you for! I don't know if it's me or them, but someone's seriously out of touch here. It seems to me DE have no clue what people play the game for and how games should even work.

Edited by SordidDreams
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