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Damage Abilities in the "endgame"


Nevuz
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So damage abilities feeling a bit useless in the "endgame". Yeah theres no real endgame but i mean against +lvl 80 enemies, when you are doing kuva lich, sorties or arbitrations. For example ember, there no point for using inferno or fireball over a +50k dps weapon and investing in ability strength, it doesent feel powerful anymore and for many other warframes too. It should be be working a bit like the exalted weapons where u can mod your damage abilities seperately or like atlas landslide. I think level scaling abilities like flechette orb and photon strike from vauban shouldn't be a thing. 

 

And second the mod sets, they should work like the umbra mods, more sets = better Bonus. They are just a normal mods with a little passive.

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40 minutes ago, Nevuz said:

It should be be working a bit like the exalted weapons where u can mod your damage abilities seperately or like atlas landslide.

Being able to do that for every single ability would invalidate ability Mods on Warframes, it'd mess things up big time I'm afraid.

Also, I hate how Landslide / Whipclaw uses your equipped Melee's Mods,
that is an instance where separate modding should be added already, stat sticks are terrible.

40 minutes ago, Nevuz said:

I think level scaling abilities like flechette orb and photon strike from vauban shouldn't be a thing. 

Could you give any reason why?

I've heard positive reports about e.g. Flechette Orb at higher levels, so what's wrong with that?

40 minutes ago, Nevuz said:

And second the mod sets, they should work like the umbra mods, more sets = better Bonus.

That is how they work, though.

It's just that the set bonus isn't a boost effect to the Mods themselves, but different stuff.

... mind, I'm not saying I fully disagree, it'd be super neat to have a version of e.g. the Augur set that replaced the Shield thing with a Mod stat boost.

Edited by NinjaZeku
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1 hour ago, Nevuz said:

 I think level scaling abilities like flechette orb and photon strike from vauban shouldn't be a thing. 

Abilities like Flechette Orb is the only way to have really good Scaling without relying 100% on just the damage alone since damage alone with no way to Scale with enemies would never scale. It always find a point where it would do nothing while level damage or % damage on a Enemy would not. That’s why Players use Frames like Octavia while stripping the enemy’s Armor or just ignore the Armor and one hit kill the enemy (like Revenant and Garuda). If the damage Ability got CC, then it would be more of a CC use but without it, might as well forget about it at higher levels. 

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I think it's fine, if you want to go past a certain point you need to think about your setup and synergies.

Using your Ember example, you probably would need to think of a viral/corrosive setup to make it work. Not just proccing the statuses, but mechanics for proccing them, like a way to group enemies up before nuking to make it effective. Ferrox, arcanes and Zenuirik dash come to mind.

It does narrow down the path a lot but I haven't come across a frame that simply can't handle higher level content. It may take some tinkering and deviating from the "slap a vitality in there and we're set" builds but its doable.

And to be honest tinkering is the best part of the game, at least for me.

 

Now there are a set of frames that having scaling damage and/or survivability, which makes the others look like garbage, which is kind of a problem, but there is a time and a place for most stuff in the game.

For example, I wouldn't take my nuking mirage with zero survivability to arbitrations, but I do take her to fully lvl up 3 weapons in a few minutes in ESO.

And that is not saying that frame X is for doing Y only, because through tinkering and synergies I breeze through lvl 100+ with her using another build/weapons.

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And that can be a really well designed progression for some frames. Nezha is one that starts with a bland but understandable radial damage ult from a new player's perspective, but through mods and synergy and health scaling as they advance, it becomes a radial CC and setup for a debuff. But making that happen with every frame would be a special balance nightmare.

8 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Could you give any reason why?

I've heard positive reports about e.g. Flechette Orb at higher levels, so what's wrong with that?

In gameplay terms it's fine. You can still choose to mod for power strength or not to, making a particular frame build deal more or less than the prescribed amount of damage provided for a particular level of enemy. It also parallels CC and utility abilities and most buffs, which largely don't become any more or less effective against higher level enemies. Particularly in cases like Nezha again, where his Warding Halo DR has a health bar, but scaled to the enemy damage he absorbs.

But even the defensive ones never come completely for free - they're based on absorbing fire or stealing from enemies or whatnot - and damage generally comes from squeezing every last drop out of a weapon build or is directly scaled by one. It feels very wrong to just have your abilities scaled up to the enemies you're fighting while you're polarizing a gun eight times and farming mods for the same difference in DPS.

8 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Being able to do that for every single ability would invalidate ability Mods on Warframes, it'd mess things up big time I'm afraid.

I'm not so sure, since the one thing you're not really modding for in max-level content is damage, even when modding for power strength. But there are plenty of exceptions even to that, like Nezha one last time, and the fact that his Burning Chakram gives a power-strength-scaled bonus % damage against enemies, or Saryn being Saryn, both cases where it starts to be a problem with corrupted mods and less-than-100% power strength.

8 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Also, I hate how Landslide / Whipclaw uses your equipped Melee's Mods,
that is an instance where separate modding should be added already, stat sticks are terrible.

God yes. What I really just wish though is that every warframe had a designated stat stick, whether it's Khora's whip or Garuda's Talons or Octavia's Mandachord or whatnot, and if it was used in an attack in any ability its stats would be as modded (and Power Strength as well when appropriate) while other abilities could draw from its modded damage or status chance or other attributes. Get rid of this business basing abilities on installed mods without regard to the weapon they're installed to, so we can't abuse rivens and don't have to sacrifice weapon slots into an ability build. (And let all the melees use Blood Rush, because come on, if Khora can, so can Excalibur.)

Edited by CopperBezel
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