Jump to content
gluih

Keeping players busy 24/7 vs. getting players to come back

Recommended Posts

I wanted to share my thoughts on this, based on my experience in and outside of warframe. Specifically my experience/ expectations around railjack seemed to be very different from a lot of other players.

The short version of my argument would be, that trying to give all players something to do all the time, either requires too much development time or it is going to make the game worse, by extending the grind for xp and so on. And of course you run into a situation, where you can't really have a job and play the game at the same time or at least it means sacrificing other aspects of your life.

The game, that seems to have found the best solution (at least from the outside/ in principle) is patch of exile. Players just play as far through a league as they want and don't have a lot of pressure to complete everything, because everybody starts fresh in the next league anyway. One very important aspect to this is, that there is an occasion for players to come back into the game, whenever a new league starts.
I don't advocate for resetting progress in warframe every few months. I don't think it is actually necessary either, as long as it doesn't take too long for players to catch back up.
The other part is giving players these occasions, where a lot of players return at the same time to experience the game together. Warframe already has a little bit of this in the form of prime releases. Other than that, the current policy of releasing content very early and the patching it up actively works against this. This doesn't have to be a problem, but it would help a lot to have an event, that clearly communicates "play this content now!", once everything is working. I'm thinking of temporary events like the acolytes here or a quest release.

Just for some context and to illustrate, what I mean, here is how I experienced 2019 in warframe and some thoughts on what I would have done different:
I basically stopped playing once I had everything from nightwave season 1.
Nightwave itself was part of this. Some of the challenges just aren't a lot of fun and it's frustrating to do them, just to progress nightwave. Specifically the mining and hunting challenges just take too long imo and would feel much better if they took half the time. Nightwave can also be very annoying, when returning, because some of the challenges can't really be done actively. This makes catching up more difficult. I'm mostly thinking of stuff like "complete 3 sorties" or "scan 5 synthesis targets". Nightmare missions can also be annoying, because you are basically looking for capture, sabotage and other short missions and have to wait for a reset to avoid longer ones.
For the longest time I only really watched baro videos on youtube, to make sure I wasn't missing out on anything there.
I came back around the time, when we could build our dry dock. That gave me some time to catch up with the current nightwave, get all the warframe I missed and farm some liches. The liches are actually something, that could stretch out other content, instead of being its own thing. As far as I understood it, they were supposed to take longer to farm and just happen alongside the other content and I don't really understand why that didn't happen.
For Empyrean itself I didn't have a lot of expectations, just because it seems like such a huge project. There are entire games out there, that do similar things without all the other stuff, that warframe has to offer and also has to include. Games like guns of icarus and sea of thieves, where you have to manage a ship or other games, that focus entirely on air combat. And none of those have ground combat on a level with warframe. There is a reason, why not many projects with this level of ambition are completed.
And then Empyrean ran into the exact trap of trying to keep players busy, without actually giving them much to do. The intrinsics grind is partially the players fault, at least for those who followed the devstreams, knew that it was supposed to take months to max out and still decided to burn themselves out, because they wanted to have it maxed out right away. Maybe some players need something like the standing cap we have for syndicates, but that seems a bit sad to me. The resource grind makes sense to me, to make people spend some platinum on repair drones over the holidays. Not the most honest approach, but who knows if there was a better solution. The reactors don't make sense to me. It seems obvious, that everybody is going to want as much avionics capacity as possible. Not only can it be extremely frustrating to get there, but you also end up with a lot of bad reactors, that just seem out of place. There are a lot of suggestions to solve this and hopefully it gets changed soon.
It seems like a lot of other players, that were more involved with warframe over the year had a lot higher expectations, maybe because they didn't get much else throughout the year and maybe because the demos from tennocon and so on seemed so promising. I have no doubt, that the whole railjack experience is going to improve a lot, now that the holidays are over. But this is a situations, where it makes sense to not push players, who don't enjoy it at the moment. Instead only add additional stuff to earn, once it is actually enjoyable and somewhat resembles the vision, from the demos.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Burning out players isn't a good option, it never was.

RNG x RNG x RNG = extreme grind != to content

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember which company it was - I think maybe it was the Diablo III devs, during their huge "we have to fix loot" revision. But anyway, they said, paraphrasing, that their breathrough moment was understanding that it was okay if players leave, as long as they leave happy. Because if they leave happy, then they are far more inclined to return, since their experience was good. 

As a result, they altered their game drastically, accepting that players may stop playing because they'd accomplished everything they wanted to accomplish, until there was more to do - at which point the players would come back because hey, the game was really fun and worth coming back to. 

Waframe has a problem that, however, they live or die on daily login counts (per something one of the DE folks said) so leaving happy or mad doesn't matter -- they have to figure out how to keep us from leaving ever. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

historically, extremely high grind for DE is a clear sign of "hey don't run this too seriously, we ain't finish building it yet" so that "hardcore" players turn away, that's it intended purpose. Then over time, DE would either decrease the grind, or make up an entire mechanic to "boost" your "effectiveness" of grinding it. From which point onward, newer player started at that time don't have to experience the old horrendous grind anymore. 

I started playing since late 2014 and that have happen more time than i can count, it's simply part of how DE introducing new mechanic and not have it completely obsolete before they even finish working on it. There will always be players that choose to burn themselves out, the different is if DE rewarding that burn out behavior or not (and DE actually doesn't)

 

 

  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, gluih said:

The short version of my argument would be, that trying to give all players something to do all the time, either requires too much development time or it is going to make the game worse, by extending the grind for xp and so on. And of course you run into a situation, where you can't really have a job and play the game at the same time or at least it means sacrificing other aspects of your life.

I'm reminded of a conversation we had in City of Heroes from some 15 years ago, back when the Incarnate raid grind was first being introduced. Developers sold it to us as "a progression system" rather than as content - something which could keep us playing long-term. Then and now, I had to remind people that there's no such thing as sustainable gameplay design. If you try to stretch out your content, you're going to run into some combination of three things: it's going to be glacially slow, it's going to be prohibitively difficult, or it's going to be mind-numbingly repetitive. Unless you're some kind of early access open world crafting survival game where players go to make their own creations, there's no way to stretch out your content without stretching out your players' patience. Warframe managed to nail all three with Railjack. It's pretty difficult without proper gear and a lot of experience, missions are pretty long and the grind for low-drop-chance items is pretty slow for the same reason... And even when you do get an item, it's probably going to have a S#&$ roll so you're going to need to do it all again.

This is what happens when you stop designing systems with the intent of making them fun and start designing them solely with an eye towards retentions, progression and monetisation.

 

3 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

I can't remember which company it was - I think maybe it was the Diablo III devs, during their huge "we have to fix loot" revision. But anyway, they said, paraphrasing, that their breathrough moment was understanding that it was okay if players leave, as long as they leave happy. Because if they leave happy, then they are far more inclined to return, since their experience was good. 

Yup! That's the long and short of it, as far as I'm concerned. Trying to keep people coming back and going through the motions, playing your game until they're so sick of it literally nothing can please them is a dead end business strategy. Even with high churn, you're going to end up with problems in the long run. By contrast, a game which allows players to get their fill and leave happy is one with a long tail. That's a game that players keep wanting to go back to. Even if they stop playing for a while, they'll keep coming back every time there's a major content release, a major revision - some kind of major patch. It's what kept Payday 2 alive for 5 years. You look at the numbers, you can see them nosedive constantly, but they'd always spike the next time a heist was released. Letting people have their fill, leave and return refreshed ensures a healthy, happy playerbase. Trying to keep a deathgrip on the throats of players, by contrast, leads to a community full of people like me - jaded, cynical and officially over the development team's rose-tinted glasses spin.

  • Like 1
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just going to add my 2 cents here, many players trusted DE and pointed to then as the ideal F2P video game business model.  A company you could recommend to friends, sure they make money, but everyone has to eat to live.  I could get behind them because I felt they generally wanted to make a fun game and we're passionate about thier art and hired smart people.  

I do not have that impression anymore.  The straw that broke the camel's back was making reactors (which are equivalent to warframes in Railjack) have random capacity.  Under no circumstances, even if they tightened the range and increased drop chance to 50%, is this acceptable.  If you don't get that, if you don't understand how killing guides, min/max, and the whole online community around it is bad, I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't be developing games anymore.  Excluding the majority of players is never a good thing.  

The guys making the streams are not the guys making decisions, or they are tired and no longer care about the game and want out.  It's sad because many players still love Warframe, but this isn't Warframe, it's a new game I jokingly call WarCasino.  It's not the same game.  

DE could have hit a home run with railjacks offering years of repeatability with customizable and personalized railjacks, different builds, and adding missions that encouraged different builds (I.e. tank, speedster, carrier, artillery, etc.).  None of that is possible in this system. 

Instead they hit a foul ball that looked like it was going out of the park, but actually it's just a strike.  I will be very surprised if they fix the core issue, or just nerf other parts instead actively destroying thier own work and community good will.  My new impression of DE is stubborn and prideful.  Damit, just accept it was a wrong decision and fix it!  Your players, the community you built, rejects random stats and I've never seen more complaints that last two updates.  

I used to believe they always fixed thier stuff, but now I see them as a different company.  Random railjack reactors need to be removed immediately and replaced with another reasonable system.  I have a solution and I've read at least a dozen other great ideas, even a progression system built over random would be acceptable where all players could have a level playing field (eventually with work).  But the major issue in last few patches is not even mentioned.  Very little hope for Warframe future.  

Creativity isn't the problem.  The problem seems to be greed now.  Isn't that why all casinos are opened?  

Edited by Educated_Beast
  • Like 3
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

I'm just going to add my 2 cents here, many players trusted DE and pointed to then as the ideal F2P video game business model.  A company you could recommend to friends, sure they make money, but everyone has to eat to live.  I could get behind them because I felt they generally wanted to make a fun game and we're passionate about thier art and hired smart people.  

I do not have that impression anymore.  The straw that broke the camel's back was making reactors (which are equivalent to warframes in Railjack) have random capacity.  Under no circumstances, even if they tightened the range and increased drop chance to 50%, is this acceptable.  If you don't get that, if you don't understand how killing guides, min/max, and the whole online community around it is bad, I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't be developing games anymore.  Excluding the majority of players is never a good thing.  

The guys making the streams are not the guys making decisions, or they are tired and no longer care about the game and want out.  It's sad because many players still love Warframe, but this isn't Warframe, it's a new game I jokingly call WarCasino.  It's not the same game.  

DE could have hit a home run with railjacks offering years of repeatability with customizable and personalized railjacks, different builds, and adding missions that encouraged different builds (I.e. tank, speedster, carrier, artillery, etc.).  None of that is possible in this system. 

Instead they hit a foul ball that looked like it was going out of the park, but actually it's just a strike.  I will be very surprised if they fix the core issue, or just nerf other parts instead actively destroying thier own work and community good will.  My new impression of DE is stubborn and prideful.  Damit, just accept it was a wrong decision and fix it!  Your players, the community you built, rejects random stats and I've never seen more complaints that last two updates.  

I used to believe they always fixed thier stuff, but now I see them as a different company.  Random railjack reactors need to be removed immediately and replaced with another reasonable system.  I have a solution and I've read at least a dozen other great ideas, even a progression system built over random would be acceptable where all players could have a level playing field (eventually with work).  But the major issue in last few patches is not even mentioned.  Very little hope for Warframe future.  

Creativity isn't the problem.  The problem seems to be greed now.  Isn't that why all casinos are opened?  

I have a hard time believing, that much changed really. And I also don't think the problem is, that they were greedy all along.

There are some problems, that seem to be inevitable for games like this.
One of these problems is the increasing number of bugs. So far warframe has been pretty good when it comes to this. Sure after releases you generally have a lot of issues, but they also usually got fixed pretty quickly.
And then you have power creep. Warframe has never been really balanced or difficult. A lot of people claim, that this is one of the features of warframe. You can argue whether properly balancing the game would worth the time it would take, but it definitely wouldn't make the game worse to have less op warframes. Generally the Devs have avoided this problem, but I think they are playing with an illusion there. The players have to feel like their investment into more power will be used for something at some point. And you also can't avoid this by making players not use their weapons and warframes instead(eidolon hunts, orb fights, railjack).

One thing, that makes railjack unusually frustrating is, that it was sitting without many over the holidays. It will be interesting to see, what it is going to happen now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't believe I'm gonna praise Raid SL here, but they have a daily/weekly/monthly mission system too, much like Warframe's nightmare, the only difference being those missions are actually you'd normally do while playing. So, in essence, they reward people for doing what they are supposed to do. Nightwave, however, takes the opposite approach and reward people for doing stuff you wouldn't necessarily do, and once you're done, that's it. Most people won't bother with the measly credit reward. I mean, come on, 1 week to get at most 60 credits? Not even enough to get a #*!%ing potato. 

I think nightwave needs to have a more custom, personalized approach and give you missions organically depending on what you're actually doing and present you with several choices you can agree or refuse to do. 

Say, the game detects you've done several thrall missions in a row and gives you a weekly challenge: Kill or Convert 1 lich. You can then accept or refuse. If you refuse, the game will simply present you with another one. Say: You're using the ignis for a few missions in a row and asks you to kill X enemies using the fire element.

On top of that, I think alerts need to come back and reward you with nightwave credits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grind and having so much crap to do in-game actually pulls me deeper into the game.  I barely get to try other games.  I liked the original nightwave where we had more tasks.  I would love like 3x the amount of tasks we get now.  Liches only interest me in terms of getting ephymeras,  if they gave way more kuva that would be pretty dope just to run them for that.  PoE/OV have plenty of incentives but it doesnt take long to get everything and then what?  Those need some powerful temporary buffs you could buy with standing.  7 day boosters for 130k standing??

Railjack seems kind like a dead end. Intrinsics, Dirac, gear, mods....but once you get all that stuff what will be the point?  It is seperate from the rest of the game.  Kuva, endo, Ayatan, money, void trace are all things that could connect it back to the rest of the game and create a reason to do it beyond that initial stuff.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Railjack seems kind like a dead end. Intrinsics, Dirac, gear, mods....but once you get all that stuff what will be the point?  It is seperate from the rest of the game.  Kuva, endo, Ayatan, money, void trace are all things that could connect it back to the rest of the game and create a reason to do it beyond that initial stuff.   

 

It's probably a good thing, that it's not that connected to the rest of the game, while it's not much more than a bunch of exterminate missions. Ultimately I hope it will be more connected and that's probably where things are going, but there is no need to rush that aspect more than actually giving the depth to railjack, that it could have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

I can't believe I'm gonna praise Raid SL here, but they have a daily/weekly/monthly mission system too, much like Warframe's nightmare, the only difference being those missions are actually you'd normally do while playing. So, in essence, they reward people for doing what they are supposed to do. Nightwave, however, takes the opposite approach and reward people for doing stuff you wouldn't necessarily do, and once you're done, that's it. Most people won't bother with the measly credit reward. I mean, come on, 1 week to get at most 60 credits? Not even enough to get a #*!%ing potato. 

I think nightwave needs to have a more custom, personalized approach and give you missions organically depending on what you're actually doing and present you with several choices you can agree or refuse to do. 

Say, the game detects you've done several thrall missions in a row and gives you a weekly challenge: Kill or Convert 1 lich. You can then accept or refuse. If you refuse, the game will simply present you with another one. Say: You're using the ignis for a few missions in a row and asks you to kill X enemies using the fire element.

On top of that, I think alerts need to come back and reward you with nightwave credits.

They still have to be actual challenges though? Not that they have to be very difficult. Having a choice would be nice, so you can avoid the stuff you really don't like doing.

Alerts could be interesting. Didn't they want to change the star chart, so not every mission type would be available on every planet? I liked that idea. You would just have to make sure, that a version of every mission type would be available at every level range, similar to how void fissures are available at different levels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-01-14 at 12:30 AM, gluih said:

I wanted to share my thoughts on this, based on my experience in and outside of warframe. Specifically my experience/ expectations around railjack seemed to be very different from a lot of other players.

The short version of my argument would be, that trying to give all players something to do all the time, either requires too much development time or it is going to make the game worse, by extending the grind for xp and so on. And of course you run into a situation, where you can't really have a job and play the game at the same time or at least it means sacrificing other aspects of your life.

The game, that seems to have found the best solution (at least from the outside/ in principle) is patch of exile. Players just play as far through a league as they want and don't have a lot of pressure to complete everything, because everybody starts fresh in the next league anyway. One very important aspect to this is, that there is an occasion for players to come back into the game, whenever a new league starts.
I don't advocate for resetting progress in warframe every few months. I don't think it is actually necessary either, as long as it doesn't take too long for players to catch back up.
The other part is giving players these occasions, where a lot of players return at the same time to experience the game together. Warframe already has a little bit of this in the form of prime releases. Other than that, the current policy of releasing content very early and the patching it up actively works against this. This doesn't have to be a problem, but it would help a lot to have an event, that clearly communicates "play this content now!", once everything is working. I'm thinking of temporary events like the acolytes here or a quest release.

Just for some context and to illustrate, what I mean, here is how I experienced 2019 in warframe and some thoughts on what I would have done different:
I basically stopped playing once I had everything from nightwave season 1.
Nightwave itself was part of this. Some of the challenges just aren't a lot of fun and it's frustrating to do them, just to progress nightwave. Specifically the mining and hunting challenges just take too long imo and would feel much better if they took half the time. Nightwave can also be very annoying, when returning, because some of the challenges can't really be done actively. This makes catching up more difficult. I'm mostly thinking of stuff like "complete 3 sorties" or "scan 5 synthesis targets". Nightmare missions can also be annoying, because you are basically looking for capture, sabotage and other short missions and have to wait for a reset to avoid longer ones.
For the longest time I only really watched baro videos on youtube, to make sure I wasn't missing out on anything there.
I came back around the time, when we could build our dry dock. That gave me some time to catch up with the current nightwave, get all the warframe I missed and farm some liches. The liches are actually something, that could stretch out other content, instead of being its own thing. As far as I understood it, they were supposed to take longer to farm and just happen alongside the other content and I don't really understand why that didn't happen.
For Empyrean itself I didn't have a lot of expectations, just because it seems like such a huge project. There are entire games out there, that do similar things without all the other stuff, that warframe has to offer and also has to include. Games like guns of icarus and sea of thieves, where you have to manage a ship or other games, that focus entirely on air combat. And none of those have ground combat on a level with warframe. There is a reason, why not many projects with this level of ambition are completed.
And then Empyrean ran into the exact trap of trying to keep players busy, without actually giving them much to do. The intrinsics grind is partially the players fault, at least for those who followed the devstreams, knew that it was supposed to take months to max out and still decided to burn themselves out, because they wanted to have it maxed out right away. Maybe some players need something like the standing cap we have for syndicates, but that seems a bit sad to me. The resource grind makes sense to me, to make people spend some platinum on repair drones over the holidays. Not the most honest approach, but who knows if there was a better solution. The reactors don't make sense to me. It seems obvious, that everybody is going to want as much avionics capacity as possible. Not only can it be extremely frustrating to get there, but you also end up with a lot of bad reactors, that just seem out of place. There are a lot of suggestions to solve this and hopefully it gets changed soon.
It seems like a lot of other players, that were more involved with warframe over the year had a lot higher expectations, maybe because they didn't get much else throughout the year and maybe because the demos from tennocon and so on seemed so promising. I have no doubt, that the whole railjack experience is going to improve a lot, now that the holidays are over. But this is a situations, where it makes sense to not push players, who don't enjoy it at the moment. Instead only add additional stuff to earn, once it is actually enjoyable and somewhat resembles the vision, from the demos.

Lich grind and Railjack being either squad up or shut up made me quit the game. Couldn't have made a better start to a new year. I am enjoying my life a lot now. 🙂 I know it's wrong of me to think this way, but I can't help it... The game is a toxic abusive relationship that doesn't respect your time. The mere fact that my friend got top notch railjack gear in 1st try and I didn't get anything for 100+ runs is heartbreaking in itself. So much time wasted, and I can't blame anyone but myself. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-01-14 at 10:52 AM, Educated_Beast said:

I'm just going to add my 2 cents here, many players trusted DE and pointed to then as the ideal F2P video game business model.  A company you could recommend to friends, sure they make money, but everyone has to eat to live.  I could get behind them because I felt they generally wanted to make a fun game and we're passionate about thier art and hired smart people.  

I do not have that impression anymore.  The straw that broke the camel's back was making reactors (which are equivalent to warframes in Railjack) have random capacity.  Under no circumstances, even if they tightened the range and increased drop chance to 50%, is this acceptable.  If you don't get that, if you don't understand how killing guides, min/max, and the whole online community around it is bad, I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't be developing games anymore.  Excluding the majority of players is never a good thing.  

The guys making the streams are not the guys making decisions, or they are tired and no longer care about the game and want out.  It's sad because many players still love Warframe, but this isn't Warframe, it's a new game I jokingly call WarCasino.  It's not the same game.  

DE could have hit a home run with railjacks offering years of repeatability with customizable and personalized railjacks, different builds, and adding missions that encouraged different builds (I.e. tank, speedster, carrier, artillery, etc.).  None of that is possible in this system. 

Instead they hit a foul ball that looked like it was going out of the park, but actually it's just a strike.  I will be very surprised if they fix the core issue, or just nerf other parts instead actively destroying thier own work and community good will.  My new impression of DE is stubborn and prideful.  Damit, just accept it was a wrong decision and fix it!  Your players, the community you built, rejects random stats and I've never seen more complaints that last two updates.  

I used to believe they always fixed thier stuff, but now I see them as a different company.  Random railjack reactors need to be removed immediately and replaced with another reasonable system.  I have a solution and I've read at least a dozen other great ideas, even a progression system built over random would be acceptable where all players could have a level playing field (eventually with work).  But the major issue in last few patches is not even mentioned.  Very little hope for Warframe future.  

Creativity isn't the problem.  The problem seems to be greed now.  Isn't that why all casinos are opened?  

Amen

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-01-14 at 10:52 AM, Educated_Beast said:

I do not have that impression anymore.  The straw that broke the camel's back was making reactors (which are equivalent to warframes in Railjack) have random capacity.  Under no circumstances, even if they tightened the range and increased drop chance to 50%, is this acceptable.  If you don't get that, if you don't understand how killing guides, min/max, and the whole online community around it is bad, I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't be developing games anymore.  Excluding the majority of players is never a good thing. 

Absolutely.  I thought it was "okay" that these random stats were limited to Rivens as they're generally unnecessary and such, but now with the Kuva weapons and essential parts for Railjack? If I wanted to play Path of Exile, I have it, and it does random-stat loot in a much deeper rewarding way.  This is the laziest sort of ARPG loot with a blatant linear scale of power and I want nothing to do with it.  One of the things I always enjoyed about warframe was how the RNG was very binary, you either had something or you didn't, there was no "Yeah, I got my Braton but it's not as good as Jimmy's Braton so I guess I'll throw it out :/"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-01-14 at 10:06 AM, FireSegment said:

historically, extremely high grind for DE is a clear sign of "hey don't run this too seriously, we ain't finish building it yet" so that "hardcore" players turn away, that's it intended purpose. Then over time, DE would either decrease the grind, or make up an entire mechanic to "boost" your "effectiveness" of grinding it. From which point onward, newer player started at that time don't have to experience the old horrendous grind anymore. 

I started playing since late 2014 and that have happen more time than i can count, it's simply part of how DE introducing new mechanic and not have it completely obsolete before they even finish working on it. There will always be players that choose to burn themselves out, the different is if DE rewarding that burn out behavior or not (and DE actually doesn't)

 

 

This man knows the way.

This is all too true, the ephemera and the vidar reactors are examples of that. Not to mention the bloody battle avionics as well.

They will get boosted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...