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*Spoiler* So does Warframe have aliens now? 0.0


TheArcSet
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3 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Up until this point, despite the conspiracy framing and all the unreliable narrators, I thought had a fairly good grasp of Warframe's lore and story.

I even had part of the most recent quest spoiled for me in a lore post I made after the Ropalyst fight, where I pointed out the plot holes in some in-universe-character's conspiracy accusations about the Lotus (or just DE plot holes) and considered her current action/motives.

However, after 6 million credits and 5 days of time-gating I finally got my railjack and because of the cutscene (and the fact that you can only really interact with 4 things in solo), I took a good look at the Reliquary Drive; I studied it, stood on it, wondered if it was a pod for ceyphalon's remains?

Then I turned my camera slightly and ... 
 

Oh, OH, OH

Well, that is certainly authentic to a medieval reliquary ... .


The question is what creature is that massive finger from and how are they linked to the void and Lua's spirit echo rooms.

Also, if that body part powers the railjack's jumps, does that mean that the orbirter's void jump capabilities are powered a body part too.

Depends on what you find alien. For me I seems normal and not alien at all bit it might be for others.

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On 2020-01-14 at 5:44 PM, Vit0Corleone said:

I don't think that even DE knows exactly where they are going with the lore.

That's why they were teasing sentients in 2013 already, right?

Spoiler

 

Anyway, here's what I believe.

Does the orbiter transference chair(and Tenno) power the orbiter's engines? Yes. In fact, the an early concept for the railjack had a copy of the transference chair in place of where the reliquary is right now.

Spoiler

rosa-eunche-lee-rl-operatorctrlchair-wip

rosa-eunche-lee-rosa-eunche-lee-wf-004-1

You could chock that up to "they just wanted to give players a way to change their operator on the fly but decided against it" but if you look at the bigger picture there are way more similarities. Both installations use aboriforms(the glowing roots transferring void energy), and both railjack and tenno powers have the same color design.

The reliquary contains the body part of the faction DE will introduce with the Duviri paradox and is tied to the Tenno's personal story. It does not belong to the Man in the Wall but the entity below, which as you can see not only misses one arm, but has fingers on its intact arm that look very much like whats in the reliquary.

Spoiler

b3vY4ON.jpg

I realized I also neglected to mention that the finger is probably a reference to the biblical Finger of God, which is a metaphor for divine energy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_of_God

Here's some more in depth thoughts about all of this: Cephalon Cy mentions sometimes that the Orgone accumulator(likely referring to the reliquary) has been resealed and the negentropy risk is returning to normal levels. Both orgone and negentropy are terms found in real world concepts, some pseudoscientic, others scientific. Orgone can be easily described as energy based on life force, while negentropy is a concept describing the opposite of entropy. While entropy is most easily thought of as the tendency of things to decay and become less complex, negentropy describes a measure of a something less complex randomly becoming more complex. Picture a broken plate putting itself back together without any outside intervention. If negentropy were as common as entropy, causality and logic could no longer be relied upon. It would utterly destroy our understanding and ability to live. That's why from our point of view, negentropy can be also described as a measure of normality. Hence why Cy disclaims the negentropy risk as such.

Now, going back to orgone and the finger. Cy's line about the reliquary being an orgone accumulator directly suggests that void energy is orgone. Not only that. It also suggests that a major effect of void energy is the discharge of a negentropic force. If you ever wondered why the void is poison to the Sentients, a robotic species based around surviving by adapting to specific threats, now you know. If your entire being is predicated on the function of adaption and anticipation, being exposed to negentropy through orgone, a force able to spontaneous create and change into anything imaginable(and unimaginable), will be your Achilles heel.

This revelation about void energy being orgone causing negentropy, or random anti decay, can also give us a strong hint about what the creature the finger belongs to might be. Since the finger is the one radiating orgone, which the reliquary accumulates, it stands to reason that the body was cut from is shares the same property. Now, what kind of creature could a finger radiating copious amounts of a an energy that could also be called force of creation belong to?

For the longest time people kept speculating about the Man in Wall being some sort of super powerful void demon, and while I never agreed with this idea, I did have to admit the one quest dialogue line this idea is based on referred to something I had no idea about. In the Chains of Harrow quest, Palladino talks to the Lotus at some point:

Spoiler

Palladino: Holy Rell, let us bring you the peace you have earned... Guide this Tenno so you can return to the Harrowing vessel... so that you might rest.
Lotus: Rell's warnings... those dire consequences... he was talking about Void exposure, wasn't he? The effect it has on human minds is well understood...
Palladino: But it's not. This isn't some kind of deep pressure bends as Margulis suspected. Rell saw what it was, truly. An entity, indifferent. Old as stars.

Another instance of this entity was likely referenced in the War Within, during one of the memory flashbacks.

Spoiler

Cinematic (second memory)

Operator: The air was acrid and still.
Queen: The biomes had been sabotaged. The food stocks dwindled. Paranoia gripped your father's mind. What was it he said - as he stared out into the starless black?
Operator: Something's out there, kiddo... watching us.

This line is also repeated randomly when you approach the reliquary. A lot of people(including me, I must admit) took this as hint that the Man in the Wall was related to the Tenno's father. For a while anyway. Now I realize that this was a red herring, but more about that later.

There is this thought experiment related to entropy called Maxwell's Demon which in essence describes a theoretical creature capable of breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics(entropy) by being able to observe every single particle in a space at the same time and filtering them in a way that would create order out of chaos without expending any force to achieve that goal, thus breaking the natural law. It'd could be seen as an embodiment of negentropy.

That's what Rell really meant, and what I think this new faction will be lead by. A race of gods(or demons) of decay, capable of creating anything they wish by plucking the thoughts of those trapped in the void like ripe vines. This also explains the constructs in the duviri trailer, which look like artificial, recreated approximations of actual things from the physical universe.

As for the Man in the Wall, I guess I have to get into him as well, since I think he'll be closely linked with this part of the story.

Going way back, I think it was DE Taylor who tweeted out a picture of the heroes journey diagram, explaining of how closely they've tried to stick to it for the Tenno's story, and asking if people could figure out where on that diagram the Sacrifice took place. While Taylor did delete the tweet a few months later, I still remember the version of the diagram he used:

Spoiler

heroes_journey.gif

Most people accurately guessed that the Sacrifice plot corresponds to the Ascent portion between the second that third threshold. If we assume that's correct, then the War Within would have taken up the space between the first and second threshold, and skimming the plot points, it does seem to line up pretty well. But lets look closer, particularly the first two points, Approach the Inermost Cave and Meeting of the Shadow Self. The inmost cave seems to have been taken rather literally in the War Within, as most of the quest takes place in their mind, which is represented by a literal cave they have to enter. Teshin pushes the Tenno to venture on and put a giant ayatan statue in motion. This statue, a symbol for the Tenno's ability to remember, doesnt budge, and the Tenno eventually falls into an abyss.

Waking up in the inmost cave, the deepest reaches of their mind, this is where the Tenno actually hears the Man in the Wall for the first time, and not at the end of the quest as it's commonly thought. After the Tenno finishes recollecting their memory, one can hear the distinctly modulated voice of the Man in the Wall repeating the last line:

Spoiler

 

This happens a few more times throughout the quest, actually, and culminates in the Tenno speaking the Man in the Wall's voice at the moment they break out of the Elder Queen's trap, implying that they were taken over for that short moment.

Spoiler

 

So, what's this mean? I think it means that the Tenno has met his Shadow Self. That's what the The Man in the Wall is. What is the Shadow Self? Well, looking at psychology, there's a very similar term used. Shadow.

Spoiler

From: https://psychology.wikia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)

In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" is a part of the unconscious mind which is mysterious and often disagreeable to the conscious mind, but which is also relatively close to the conscious mind. It may be (in part) one's original self, which is superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind; afterwards it comes to contain thoughts that are repressed by the conscious mind. The shadow is instinctive and irrational, but is not necessarily evil even when it might appear to be so. It can be both ruthless in conflict and empathetic in friendship. It is important as a source of hunches, for understanding of one's own more inexplicable actions and attitudes (and of others' reactions), and for learning how to cope with the more problematic or troubling aspects of one's personality.

The Man in the Wall in my eyes embodies many aspects of what a Tenno's Shadow could manifest as. They're not the polar opposite, but the other side of the same coin, one that is much more powerful, but also more dangerous and uncontrollable.

Ever noticed the disconnect between what Ballas portrays us as and how we(up until now) behave?

Spoiler

Ballas: ...What they need, Margulis, is to be destroyed! They're devils from that hell, not human anymore.

Ballas: How can you defend those devils, Margulis, after what they've done to you?!

Ballas: ...I know we are desperate, Executor, but these aren't Dax soldiers. These are golems possessed by devil minds.

Ballas: Transference-linked: the Warframes, the body - and they, the mind. I give you now the coordinates and codes to this place. But do not underestimate these devils, Hunhow.

Ballas: I tried to release you from your torment. But it seems those devils rebuilt you.

Ballas: You think you can defy me? Not even your Tenno devil can--

This isn't just a random insult he uses to attack the Tenno. Ballas talks about them the way he knew them. Before Margulis healed them. Not calm and rational beings, but aggressive and emotional, prone to seemingly random acts of horrific violence, including blinding Margulis. Natah herself references this side of the Tenno as well.

Spoiler

"Your great power, your great evil. The voice, the Void, within you. Our ancients still wither at its touch...

"We suffer these testaments of Tenno evil. Their voice and Void. Suffer it well, ancient child. Do not relent."

"I have seen the wall's other face, too. I have heard the voice."

But if the Shadow is part of the Tenno, why is it separate? And why dont the Tenno act more like they've said to have done?

Here we have to look at the Zariman incident. A group of families was stranded in the void. The adults were said to have gone mad and either killed each other, themselves or were killed in self defense by the children. Why did they go mad and not the children? This is where the the mystery is unraveled.

What's one of the biggest differences between adults and children on a very basic level? Simply put, they haven't lived as long as adults. Adults have twice, thrice or more times as many life experiences as children, including both very positive and negative ones. The unconscious part of an adults mind, their Shadow, is many times stronger simply due to having lived and experienced more hardships, trauma and whatever else shaped their character over the years. Now, what would happen if the unconscious part of an adult's mind is split off from the conscious one? The part of an adult's mind that is many times larger than their conscious one?

The Shadow would take over very quickly, especially in a stressful situation like being stranded in a strange place without help. Opposed to their parents, however, a child's mind could bear much more emotional stress before their Shadow breaks through. Their lack of life experience, suffering, trauma, wouldn't have made their Shadow grow with suppressed memories to the point where they couldn't fight it consciously. Read Rell's webcomic again with this in mind, and pay attention to Rell's void beam before and after he killed his mom. Also take note of his eye color when fear takes over and makes him do it.

Spoiler

Vs3WBGu.png

CcgtcTv.png

This is my best guess as to how the Tenno really got started. Void exposure causes a person's subconsciousness to become a conscious entity itself, and because there is just one body both consciousness and animated subconsciousness are in constant conflict. A conflict that can be affected by strong emotions(or the lack thereof). This is why the adults went mad and the kids stayed barely sane. This is why transference was created - to separate a Tenno's body from their mind. This is why Focus was created - to help suppress their emotions. This is why Margulis made the Tenno forget.

Spoiler

Teshin: I warned you. Now you're trapped inside this place with the Queens burrowing in. Now I am forced to undo what Margulis did, to open the gates...

Teshin: Margulis lied to you, a lie of omission. She did not cure the Zariman children - she erased them. My only hope is that truth still lingers inside you, buried within your mind. The power and the misery... of the Void.

How does Duviri fit into all of this? Well, first off, the term duviri seems to be an amalgamation of the latin words duo and viri, two men. Steve on his pre lich release stream mentioned offhandedly that the duviri paradox is inspired by the twin paradox thought experiment. It explores the idea of two one of a pair of identical twins traveling at close to the speed of light while the other one remains on earth, and how much the one that traveled through space would come back to see his sibling having aged entire decades. Time dilation.

Due to a lack of information this final part is mostly speculation, but I'll still try to support it as best as I can.

I believe that an event occurs switching the mind of the Tenno with that of his older twin in the Void. This event can be seen in the interlude cinematic preceding the duviri trailer on the TC '19 stream.

Spoiler

 

Note how both young and old Tenno react. The young tenno, after he has been hit by void energy currents a few times, looks at his hands completely baffled, while the old Tenno has no idea where he is, and even tries to use his void powers, which he would have realized were useless if it was his own mind.

The Zariman being stuck in the Void is obviously an incident from the Tenno's past, but since the Void has shown to be no stranger to allowing time travel(Lua spy), it's certainly imaginable that the young Tenno in the old twin's body, could set events in motion that causes their past self to be able to get back.

That leaves only the question of who it is the adult body's mind belongs to. Given everything that we know or presume to know so far, I think it's most likely the Shadow's who was left behind in the Void, waiting for their twin to come back for them. Why do I say that they'd be waiting? Because of their most infamous lines, that also get repeated whenever you go near the reliquary.

Spoiler
  •  You mad at me, kiddo? Did you forget? You owe me
  •  Don't forget, kiddo... you're nothing without me.
  •  Hey, kiddo, what took you so long?

The Shadow's lines clearly imply that they've been waiting for the Tenno, and the second in particular that they plan to become one again.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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5 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Personally, I'd see him more as shaped or deriving his/it's form from the orokin/tenno.
Any reference to him has been to 'alien otherness' or devilry.

This.  In order to enter our dimension he needs the identity, shape and substance of our dimension...our Tenno.

Likely a battle of wills...”man vs self” is coming...perhaps the Void isn’t so much an evil doppleganger as it is a reflection of what we have become after centuries of war and no Margulis to guide us.

 

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10 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Up until this point, despite the conspiracy framing and all the unreliable narrators, I thought had a fairly good grasp of Warframe's lore and story.

I even had part of the most recent quest spoiled for me in a lore post I made after the Ropalyst fight, where I pointed out the plot holes in some in-universe-character's conspiracy accusations about the Lotus (or just DE plot holes) and considered her current action/motives.

However, after 6 million credits and 5 days of time-gating I finally got my railjack and because of the cutscene (and the fact that you can only really interact with 4 things in solo), I took a good look at the Reliquary Drive; I studied it, stood on it, wondered if it was a pod for ceyphalon's remains?

Then I turned my camera slightly and ... 
 

Oh, OH, OH

Well, that is certainly authentic to a medieval reliquary ... .


The question is what creature is that massive finger from and how are they linked to the void and Lua's spirit echo rooms.

Also, if that body part powers the railjack's jumps, does that mean that the orbirter's void jump capabilities are powered a body part too.

I'd say more of a god than an alien. It's the finger of the man in the wall. Whenever you plug the key in your doppelganger appears and waves at you with their index finger bent over like it was missing.

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14 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Well, I'd consider the fingernails of such am entity pretty alien. Also, I'd say this casts a bit of doubt on that theory.

The void is a spacial dimension, but these extremities were removed from inside it, not from it.

the problem with this theory though, the sentients were made by the orokin, making them non alien in origin.

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14 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Up until this point, despite the conspiracy framing and all the unreliable narrators, I thought had a fairly good grasp of Warframe's lore and story.

I even had part of the most recent quest spoiled for me in a lore post I made after the Ropalyst fight, where I pointed out the plot holes in some in-universe-character's conspiracy accusations about the Lotus (or just DE plot holes) and considered her current action/motives.

However, after 6 million credits and 5 days of time-gating I finally got my railjack and because of the cutscene (and the fact that you can only really interact with 4 things in solo), I took a good look at the Reliquary Drive; I studied it, stood on it, wondered if it was a pod for ceyphalon's remains?

Then I turned my camera slightly and ... 
 

Oh, OH, OH

Well, that is certainly authentic to a medieval reliquary ... .


The question is what creature is that massive finger from and how are they linked to the void and Lua's spirit echo rooms.

Also, if that body part powers the railjack's jumps, does that mean that the orbirter's void jump capabilities are powered a body part too.

It's either your adult self's finger or someone's you meet in the furure. Listen to the voices at the engine. One says,"you couldn't do this without me". My guess is it's directly connected to the Divirie paradox. DE has a plan, but to tell anyone would spoil years of story telling. 

Steve did joke it was a middle finger. 

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has no one put together the drive and most people's favorite place to get credits?

Has no one seen what is on the surface of Fortuna and the size of the drive?

The Index?

Giant Statue on Venus with its head in one area and body in another yet the being it is based on is still causing havoc all over the system?

Who does this giant statue look to as the one they worship? Which society uses proxies to get things done while trying to stay in the background? How many rebellions of things being controlled have we stopped while DEFENDING a body inside of a chamber? 

The Corpus have been basing their motives and actions around the religion of the Void and those devil's, those Void Demons, have been doing the same since they were crafted on the ship lost in the Void. Manipulated the crew to the point they went mad. Taken memories of those who suffered real pain and living. Grown in power while keeping the strings on the ones that can unite or repel that which they cannot defeat. 

The Void Demons are the aliens that have been etching their way into the world since the ship returned with them on it. That was the first invasion, disguised as children aboard a ship. 

But I will wait and see what DE does....whatever it is, it's a cool story.

Cheers

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On 2020-01-15 at 7:30 AM, Zeclem said:

the problem with this theory though, the sentients were made by the orokin, making them non alien in origin.

Indeed, although as this post has nothing to do with the sentients, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

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On 2020-01-15 at 2:03 PM, (XB1)DShinShoryuken said:

has no one put together the drive and most people's favorite place to get credits?

Has no one seen what is on the surface of Fortuna and the size of the drive?

The Index?

Giant Statue on Venus with its head in one area and body in another yet the being it is based on is still causing havoc all over the system?

Who does this giant statue look to as the one they worship? Which society uses proxies to get things done while trying to stay in the background? How many rebellions of things being controlled have we stopped while DEFENDING a body inside of a chamber? 

The Corpus have been basing their motives and actions around the religion of the Void and those devil's, those Void Demons, have been doing the same since they were crafted on the ship lost in the Void. Manipulated the crew to the point they went mad. Taken memories of those who suffered real pain and living. Grown in power while keeping the strings on the ones that can unite or repel that which they cannot defeat. 

The Void Demons are the aliens that have been etching their way into the world since the ship returned with them on it. That was the first invasion, disguised as children aboard a ship. 

But I will wait and see what DE does....whatever it is, it's a cool story.

Cheers

An interesting narrative, but I'm not quite certain what you're implying?

The ship pre-dates the 1st Corpus company.

Most defence pods are sleeping tenno, codex-machines, or bombs that they didn't bother to make a different skin for. 

Isn't the Valis statue of a conman who rose to power in the last decade, or so; also, don't only Nef's followers believe his void-prophet religion, with the rest of the Corpus considering them kind of crazy.

So you think the tenno are alien mimics, pretending to be human?

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On 2020-01-14 at 2:02 PM, TARINunit9 said:

It's the Chaos God Tzeentch, he's on loan from Warhammer 40k. Basically DE have finally (and by finally I mean two years ago when Harrow was added) dropped all pretense that the Void is just the Warp

While the Warp is awesome, it has an over-the-top fantastical “killer clown/Edgelord” feel to it’s chaos angle.  

 

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

While the Warp is awesome, it has an over-the-top fantastical “killer clown/Edgelord” feel to it’s chaos angle.  

 

Yeah the marketing department can't move away from "you're playing as the devils!" when a lot of the playerbase i've talked to wants to hear more of the "the government is corrupt, and we chose THIS path!" aspect of the lore

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18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah the marketing department can't move away from "you're playing as the devils!" when a lot of the playerbase i've talked to wants to hear more of the "the government is corrupt, and we chose THIS path!" aspect of the lore

I actually think that when it comes to the MiTW, what we are may be far more sinister than we want to believe...it’s in-game characters that label us as “devils”.

In the end the lore of Warframe, I think, will be about choice.  This key line has far reaching implications...farther I think, than even at the time of The Second Dream Reveal:

”Dream...not of what you ARE, but what you want to BE.”

Natah could make her dream of being Lotus a reality...

And what of the “Tenno”?

Have you ever considered that the REAL “us” exists in the Duviri Paradox and that the reason we don’t age is because we AREN’T human children with Void powers but literally CHILDREN OF THE VOID who simply needed a body to exist in this Reality?

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I actually think that when it comes to the MiTW, what we are may be far more sinister than we want to believe...it’s in-game characters that label us as “devils”.

Well I was talking strictly W40k in the last comment, but that is a nice point

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

And what of the “Tenno”?

Have you ever considered that the REAL “us” exists in the Duviri Paradox and that the reason we don’t age is because we AREN’T human children with Void powers but literally CHILDREN OF THE VOID who simply needed a body to exist in this Reality?

No. I like your theory, that's a cool theory for what an Operator is. But in my mind, that's not what a Tenno is.

I always considered that a "Tenno" isn't just a human gifted/cursed with Void powers, or the pilot of a Warframe, or the ghost of an alternate dimension granted a new body. A Tenno is a culture, a state of being. A Tenno is the survivor of Zariman whose powers give purpose to the tortured descendants of the Orokin, and a Tenno is the armored guardian who wields weapons of war and powers beyond ordinary men so that the child may stay safe. A Tenno is a drop of poison that hones the Karyst into a weapon of assassination, and a Tenno is the thunderous force of a Fragor pulping flesh and bone. A Tenno is the training and discipline needed to conquer the Icefields of Riddah, and a Tenno is the delicious gooey cheese that makes hilarious videos about their overpowered guns. The silent footsteps in Void Mode, or the thunderous stampede of Gauss and Volt, or the blitz of Archwing afterburners, these are equally Tenno

In theory this identity of Tenno is a lie, propaganda fed to us by the Orokin to control us. But we threw the Orokin aside, and took the identity as our own truth far greater than the Orokin could have imagined

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On 2020-01-17 at 11:40 PM, TheArcSet said:

Indeed, although as this post has nothing to do with the sentients, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

i thought we were talking about ropaloyst. nevermind. 

and as far as we know, the man in the wall is likely to be from that zariman ten zero ship. we had hints towards it in the war within, and now he keeps spawning in our ship with the same kiddo line. 

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