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Enialyx
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Up the focus daily cap. Eidolon shards aren't capped, why can't regular focus gains be at least higher. Uncapped would be a bit much I think but maybe double it compared to what we have now. Granted I'm done with focus now, but the focus pool took way to much time. 

Give us a way to remove lens. I don't care if it disappears after removing it, Sometimes I just don't want to earn focus on some frames, but I'm not rebuilding and wasting more forma just to get a frame without a lens.

 

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Three big things off the top of my head:

1. "Inner Might", it being a melee / combo node, should go in Naramon.

2. The tree system puts weird limits on certain Focus nodes. In Zenurik, for example, if you want to use Void Singularity, you have to use Void Static. Maybe you don't want to use Void Static. Maybe the damage from Void Static isn't worth it at all. But you have to. So that means 2/s energy cost on Void Singularity boosts itself to 4/s. (Other nodes are more egregious, as at least Void Static and Void Singularity work together - Void Aegis from Vazarin pretty much nullifies the need for healing from Void Regen, but you still need the latter to use the former)

3. Non-Zenurik schools could likely use means of passive energy regeneration. E.g., Naramon could have energy regen on heavy attacks. Unairu can have an innate Rage mechanic, but applied to shields. Zenurik is so popular and potent in large part due to its energy generation, which it should excel at but, given how universal energy is, probably shouldn't have a monopoly on.

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2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

1. "Inner Might", it being a melee / combo node, should go in Naramon.

I don't think it should. It originally had to do with energy drain from channeling. Since channeling was replaced with heavy attacks it's still doing what it was made for.

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Non-Zenurik schools could likely use means of passive energy regeneration.

Also I disagree, Zenurik is the energy school. If they all had it what's the point of picking Zenurik then? 

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19 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

I don't think it should. It originally had to do with energy drain from channeling. Since channeling was replaced with heavy attacks it's still doing what it was made for.

"Originally" being the key word. Heavy attacks now deal with the combo counter, which is under Naramon as per Power Spike.

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Also I disagree, Zenurik is the energy school. If they all had it what's the point of picking Zenurik then? 

Low-conditional availability and high strength of energy generation, plus team applicability. There's also potential for further reworking that can give Zenurik things like extra ability efficiency or enhanced energy reserves. If Zenurik needs a monopoly on energy generation to be purposeful, then something is very amiss.

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1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

<snip>

3. Non-Zenurik schools could likely use means of passive energy regeneration. E.g., Naramon could have energy regen on heavy attacks. Unairu can have an innate Rage mechanic, but applied to shields. Zenurik is so popular and potent in large part due to its energy generation, which it should excel at but, given how universal energy is, probably shouldn't have a monopoly on.

I completely agree here. Zenurik is very much at the level of vacuum and archwing blink right now. Everyone runs it all the time. Yes, folks swap it out for some niche usage, like eidolon hunts. But guess what? They go right back to Zenurik once the hunt is done. I think tailoring the theme of each school to give back energy in some fashion would be a very neat idea and a good way to change up the current focus school mix.

My ideas for the other schools off the top of my head:

1) Madurai - Energy on a heavy melee kill.

2) Naramon - Energy on a finisher/parazon kill.

3) Unairu - Energy regen from damage, like a super boosted rage or hunter adrenaline.

4) Vazarin - Energy from health orb pickup, similar to Equilibrium.

5) Zenurik - Keep it the same, a lot of constant energy over time

Now I know some of these would be waaaay too OP if they weren't tested well, or a good alternative is found (Unairu Rage), but these are just to get the ball rolling on the creative process.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Furious Kaiser said:

Now I know some of these would be waaaay too OP if they weren't tested well, or a good alternative is found (Unairu Rage), but these are just to get the ball rolling on the creative process.

They seem like solid ideas and how OP they might be depends on the energy values they generate, all of which can be modified per school. I might only suggest swapping Madurai and Naramon and making Madurai on headshot kills, so that 1. firearms have some involvement and 2. the requirements are approximately equal in accessibility (stealth almost requires sleeps, invisibility, or finisher-forcing combos - not impossible, but much less accessible than a health orb drop)

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2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

They seem like solid ideas and how OP they might be depends on the energy values they generate, all of which can be modified per school. I might only suggest swapping Madurai and Naramon and making Madurai on headshot kills, so that 1. firearms have some involvement and 2. the requirements are approximately equal in accessibility (stealth almost requires sleeps, invisibility, or finisher-forcing combos - not impossible, but much less accessible than a health orb drop)

Ya, I do kinda agree shooter mains would need something, and would fit in Madurai well. But I am stuck on the finisher idea for Naramon as you get easy finishers using your void dash in operator form with that school. Which reminds me... what are your thoughts on this energy gain for each school being tied to some ability from your operator working with your frame? With Zenny we already have to use void dash to make the energy ring zone.

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Zenurik is the best school by default because of the seemingly infinite energy it provides to the entire squad. energy and warframe abilities are responsible for giving us more damage, support, control, and damage resistance than any of the 4 other schools can provide, so why not choose Zenurik?

i think every school should have some form of energy regeneration branch and Zenurik should be a school focused entirely on controlling, managing, and mixing status elements.

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I would get rid of the "focus orbs".

  1. ironically, they make it harder to focus on the mission.
  2. they often spawn in awkward places
  3. in some missions (PoE, I'm looking at you), they spawn after the mission phase is already over, and you're flying to the next one 

Instead, I'd have focus collect automatically, constantly, after maxing affinity.

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4 minutes ago, MysticDragonMage said:

Zenurik is the best school by default because of the seemingly infinite energy it provides to the entire squad. energy and warframe abilities are responsible for giving us more damage, support, control, and damage resistance than any of the 4 other schools can provide, so why not choose Zenurik?

Part of the issue is Zenurik also covers alot of things in a very passive way which for the other 4:

  • Naramon has its combo decay slow down but even before the melee rework, getting a 20 decay after the timer was over was kind of useless since Drifting Contact existed and even post-melee rework its reason got further yeeted since people can just use Zenurik`s Efficiency instead and most likely will not be wanting to store the combo that much. Plus +45% affinity gain on melee is honestly just bad, besides focus farming, which you need to kind of max that skill as kind of a small irony, it really had no use, especially since people would rather just goto hydron for grinding gear and take Vazarin for the aff share range bonus.
  • Vazarin pretty much has the 2nd best tree cause being able to heal defense targets, instant revives and extended aff range which can translate to boosting certain warframe abilities like Trinity & Harrow who rely on aff share range for some specific abilities. Too bad the instant rezzes lose any worth if people know how to not die and its only a few uses that a little exploit lets you have 8 cause how operators and warframes are treated as separate entities, plus being one of the few things D.E. has not yeeted from operators being affected by also. Sadly also a good deal of content does not really need heal dashes, which further stomps Vazarin down to kind of not that good.
  • Madurai, Only thing this big boi of a tree has is Void Strike, because just like Unairu Wisp, its main use is just for dumpster`ing on eidolons since you got the perfect windows to abuse that damage bonus which is one of the only three ways to boost operator damage outside of arcanes. Even the raw damage bonuses are extremely piss poor that apparently they do not affect operator damage to begin with.
  • Unairu...So much wasted potential to give us a useless damage reflect(which a real reflect would NEGATE part of the damage since its a reflect not a BIDE move) and barely much of a durability boost, Its funny that a defensive focus tree`s best skill is a damage boosting one, which last i checked, Unairu Wisp basically doubles amp damage, which means besides its proc annoyance, it technically can be more useful then Madurai since your not stuck charging for a while to get a big multiplier going, nor are you limit on a shot count. Sadly, if i recall also correctly, it doesnt work on regular damage so that kills the reason to use it over Madurai`s void strike. Since getting a easy, rather long lasting 2x damage on all your damage beats a long to charge and energy draining, damage spike of 8 shots(which is easy to waste cause of hitboxes and other nuances).

If i had to say, I would just like to believe the entire focus system needs to be scrapped and have alot more of it acts as passives that boost warframes and the operator. Since its the same argument of certain games relying on things like a Effect/Weapon SLAVE character in certain mobile games, which only purpose is to either give a massive buff or debuff to the target, usually a difficult boss fight or something. Namely, is it worth wasting time to use that character to apply the buff/debuff, or is it not due to the duration, amount of impact it applies and how much damage can the real DPS dish out during that period of buff/debuff.

In warframe`s case, Zenurik`s Energy pulse and Energizing dash is absurdly non-intrustive since you can use the void dash for easy map traversal while also getting a free 150 energy regen and as long as your not running around as Excalibur with your 4th constantly active, every single energy orb is going to give a butt ton of extra energy, which STACKS, Which just like how Slash & Corrosive stack with themselves, mean its able to bypass the usual issue one gets when a particular effect procs. Namely if a effect is active, how reapplying it becomes kind of moot unless its to keep refreshing the effect so it does not poof. With pretty much everything else in the focus tree that is not just a straight up passive, is just MEH damage or incredibly niche & scenario specific `buffs` that may or may not even be necessary at all.

4 minutes ago, MysticDragonMage said:

i think every school should have some form of energy regeneration branch and Zenurik should be a school focused entirely on controlling, managing, and mixing status elements.

Oh how i repeated this energy regen bit so many times. Again why i feel like it should just be converted into a end-game type of passive bonus system so people who do the investment in it, would get powerful benefits effects that are either useful passives or situational triggers in things people would do often. Like Spinning `crouch` slashes, Heavy Ground slams, Killing enemies while they are C.C.`d in some way, Taking a bunch of damage in a short period of time and even applying a bunch of crits OR status effects.

This would be much less intrusive sort of focus system and would function as a progressive ARCANE like system. Because D.E. can YAMMER on about game-balance or stuff but they introduced Adaptation, let people cram 2 arcanes on your warframe, introduced riven mods and so many other things, that they honestly should learn to just embrace vertical progression by making its grind heavy systems, like how intrinstics act as vertical progression to one`s railjack experience. Also apply to the Operator focus system, so it is USEFUL in ALL forms of content, instead of just being one particular tree`s 2 particular skills, most of the 5 schools main reason to max is the waybound skills so your operator is not worst then a non-amesha archwing in veil proxima railjack, plus just straight up allow players have something useful to chase towards so they get some actual power for putting in the time instead of mods they have to REMOVE one particular mod(which could utterly ruin a build) just to put in another mod that has became highly important just to survive in higher end content.

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Also: I'd make lenses recoverable from frames. 

Either similar to arcanes, freely replaceable and changeable, or at least transferable from basic to Prime frame of the same type.


Further on, I'd make lenses upgradeable after placing them.

No more having an eidolon lens somewhere, and grinding it to lua lens from the start. If lenses were recoverable, this would be possible then and there.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Furious Kaiser said:

Ya, I do kinda agree shooter mains would need something, and would fit in Madurai well. But I am stuck on the finisher idea for Naramon as you get easy finishers using your void dash in operator form with that school. Which reminds me... what are your thoughts on this energy gain for each school being tied to some ability from your operator working with your frame? With Zenny we already have to use void dash to make the energy ring zone.

There's a few things I consider:

1. Zenurik should be both the easiest and most productive form of energy generation by a sizable amount. If it's very easy to gain energy in some other school, depending on what the gain ends up being, that runs the risk of diminishing the importance of Zenurik.

2. Some schools don't have Operator means to boost their energy acquisition means like Naramon's finisher opening. Vazarin, e.g., has no way to generate more orbs—indeed, its healing powers can actually make picking up orbs impossible, working against energy generation.

3. Those sorts of systems create Operator and non-Operator means of generating energy. One doesn't need Executing Dash to perform finishers. Perhaps ironically, Zenurik would still lack a non-Operator form of energy regeneration (something that's an issue whether or not energy gain is tied to Operator abilities in other schools).

I would personally suggest giving Zenurik an innate Energy Siphon effect for its wielder at minimum, mostly to fix point 3 but also to solidify point 1. Point 2 remains a bit of a sticky situation.

I don't believe Operator abilities should be required (or borderline required) to enact the school's means of generating energy. They can help, and (barring Zenurik) the energy generation should be adjusted downward in consideration of that, but trying to base it off Operator abilities invites trouble and headache. Straightforward passives would work just fine, at least as a baseline, and allows for the addition-but-not-requirement of Operator abilities to assist them.

That said...maybe a combination of the two for Naramon: either finishers or heavy attack kills, so that Naramon can work off Executing Dash but, in practice, need not?

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Thumbs up for an engaging discussion.

21 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

There's a few things I consider:

1. Zenurik should be both the easiest and most productive form of energy generation by a sizable amount. If it's very easy to gain energy in some other school, depending on what the gain ends up being, that runs the risk of diminishing the importance of Zenurik.

2. Some schools don't have Operator means to boost their energy acquisition means like Naramon's finisher opening. Vazarin, e.g., has no way to generate more orbs—indeed, its healing powers can actually make picking up orbs impossible, working against energy generation.

3. Those sorts of systems create Operator and non-Operator means of generating energy. One doesn't need Executing Dash to perform finishers. Perhaps ironically, Zenurik would still lack a non-Operator form of energy regeneration (something that's an issue whether or not energy gain is tied to Operator abilities in other schools).

I would personally suggest giving Zenurik an innate Energy Siphon effect for its wielder at minimum, mostly to fix point 3 but also to solidify point 1. Point 2 remains a bit of a sticky situation.

I don't believe Operator abilities should be required (or borderline required) to enact the school's means of generating energy. They can help, and (barring Zenurik) the energy generation should be adjusted downward in consideration of that, but trying to base it off Operator abilities invites trouble and headache. Straightforward passives would work just fine, at least as a baseline, and allows for the addition-but-not-requirement of Operator abilities to assist them.

That said...maybe a combination of the two for Naramon: either finishers or heavy attack kills, so that Naramon can work off Executing Dash but, in practice, need not?

You do raise some fair points here, biggest one being accidentally making Zenurik obsolete. I agree that it should have the easiest from of energy generation, such as a constant passive buff, but it shouldn't be both the easiest and the most productive, as that will just keep it as the meta. It will still have it's use as it generates energy all the time, even when no other enemies are around, while the other schools will have to rely on enemies being present, and killed in some fashion, to generate their energy. I still stand that using the operator's abilities in some fashion to prep for energy gain in some way will help keep operator play, even at the small rate that they do with Zenurik today as just poofing, dashing, and disappearing, relevant.

Another idea that cropped up just now is to institute it all as a sort of ramping combo system across the board. The more you do X with regards to your chosen school, the more decaying combo meter you get that provides energy at a higher rate, which is capped, obviously.

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42 minutes ago, Enialyx said:

I would get rid of the "focus orbs".

  1. ironically, they make it harder to focus on the mission.
  2. they often spawn in awkward places
  3. in some missions (PoE, I'm looking at you), they spawn after the mission phase is already over, and you're flying to the next one 

Instead, I'd have focus collect automatically, constantly, after maxing affinity.

---------------------------------

Also: I'd make lenses recoverable from frames. 

Either similar to arcanes, freely replaceable and changeable, or at least transferable from basic to Prime frame of the same type.


Further on, I'd make lenses upgradeable after placing them.

No more having an eidolon lens somewhere, and grinding it to lua lens from the start. If lenses were recoverable, this would be possible then and there.

I wouldn't say get rid of them, but tweak their spawn system to NOT flipping spawn near the end of waves/objectives/wherever they are useless lol.. that sh*t is pretty annoying, not gonna lie.

Completely agree with you on the lens treatment.

 

 

Edited by (XB1)Furious Kaiser
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4 minutes ago, (XB1)Furious Kaiser said:

it shouldn't be both the easiest and the most productive, as that will just keep it as the meta.

To be clear, I mean to speak on average. A hypothetical player with average aim, using all weapons almost equally, with average builds, etc. I think it would be absurd to say "Naramon can't generate more energy than Zenurik ever" if, for example, a Naramon user gains energy for heavy attack kills and uses almost nothing but heavy attacks through an entire mission.

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Furious Kaiser said:

I still stand that using the operator's abilities in some fashion to prep for energy gain in some way will help keep operator play, even at the small rate that they do with Zenurik today as just poofing, dashing, and disappearing, relevant.

I may not have been clear, but I meant to say that I think the "abilities for energy gain" works fine - just that it should be a boost, not a requirement. Why, for example, I suggested Zenurik have an Energy Siphon passive that Void Dashing increases. Same goes for Naramon finishers and...well, whatever nodes can be devised for the other schools to feed their energy generation schemas.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Furious Kaiser said:

Another idea that cropped up just now is to institute it all as a sort of ramping combo system across the board. The more you do X with regards to your chosen school, the more decaying combo meter you get that provides energy at a higher rate, which is capped, obviously.

I think just having certain abilities help a school's means of energy generation is enough. We wouldn't want the Gauss problem of "hop into Operator, void blast and void dash and void mode at a wall, do the thing for energy, gain a ton of energy". Things like school abilities that increase orb generation or open enemies to finishers or create bullet magnets around targets's heads - using those for their purpose boosts energy generation.

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7 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

To be clear, I mean to speak on average. A hypothetical player with average aim, using all weapons almost equally, with average builds, etc. I think it would be absurd to say "Naramon can't generate more energy than Zenurik ever" if, for example, a Naramon user gains energy for heavy attack kills and uses almost nothing but heavy attacks through an entire mission.

 

Agree with you there. And it just loops back around to the exhaustive testing and balancing of all the schools if this were to be implemented.

10 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I may not have been clear, but I meant to say that I think the "abilities for energy gain" works fine - just that it should be a boost, not a requirement. Why, for example, I suggested Zenurik have an Energy Siphon passive that Void Dashing increases. Same goes for Naramon finishers and...well, whatever nodes can be devised for the other schools to feed their energy generation schemas.

Ya, I was keying in more on the power of Zenurik vs the other schools possible energy gain mechanics. I do like the idea of a much smaller passive, always-on energy gain effect of some kind that can be boosted in some way via operator use. Obviously with flavor pertaining to your chosen school.

15 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I think just having certain abilities help a school's means of energy generation is enough. We wouldn't want the Gauss problem of "hop into Operator, void blast and void dash and void mode at a wall, do the thing for energy, gain a ton of energy". Things like school abilities that increase orb generation or open enemies to finishers or create bullet magnets around targets's heads - using those for their purpose boosts energy generation.

/shudders @ Gauss 1 spam into walls.... Ya, ideally, IMO, the situation would be to pop to operator form, do a thing once, pop back to warframe, do a thing, get energy. Creates more synergy between operator and Frame.

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6 hours ago, --Brandt-- said:

Up the focus daily cap. Eidolon shards aren't capped, why can't regular focus gains be at least higher. Uncapped would be a bit much I think but maybe double it compared to what we have now. Granted I'm done with focus now, but the focus pool took way to much time. 

Give us a way to remove lens. I don't care if it disappears after removing it, Sometimes I just don't want to earn focus on some frames, but I'm not rebuilding and wasting more forma just to get a frame without a lens.

 

Focus gained definitely can't be uncapped, or it would turn double affinity weekends into living hell for players. Even doubling might be bad enough. As it is, the only way you'll ever get anywhere near the daily focus cap is by actively trying to grind focus.

Given how huge the pools already are and the mechanics of focus grinding I doubt that removing lenses would ever matter, either. If you don't intend to get a substantial amount of focus out of a particular frame, you just won't.

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The actual system is fine enough, but it's in the wrong place... it should be the Arcanes, some end-game extension to the Operators, not their core progression. It is extremely slow and difficult for something that's apparently supposed to be part of the base game - the story. You are expected to have upgraded your operator over the course of the story, but doing so is entirely unreasonable by how much focus it takes. They should definitely have another system that unlocks more core powers you can mix-and-match, that Focus then lets you further specialise and get passives with.

On that note, I feel like Operators themselves are heavily underutilised. These kids are supposed to have a colossal amount of untapped Void power brimming inside them, right? For the part of the duo that represents spiritual strength made manifest through psychic abilities, they seem awfully limited. Void Dash, Void Blast and Void Mode are cool, and 2/3 are useful, but I feel it would both assist the customisable feeling of the Operator, and greatly expand their gameplay if, over time, you unlocked more, which you can swap into. I understand that DE wants to maintain the hand/will element, but you don't need to give Operators very physical abilities - or at least physical coding for said powers. 

Example: instead of Void Dash, you get super speed. Volt and Gauss are clearly sprinting mostly on their own power. Operators could take the Infamous approach by clearly showing that they're utilising their Void power to run that fast.

Spoiler

Related image

This could be slightly slower (and obviously limited to ground movement) but is considerably cheaper than Void Dash, letting you use it more freely as both a traversal tool and as a combat approach option, since you'd have more energy for other void powers.  Instead of the weird slide (or unlocked as an upgrade to the slide), why not pull a Vergil and let Operators do a teleport sidestep for their dodge move? Void Blast could get a variant that's a more sustained push rather than, well, a blast, which would then combine with focus powers to produce a flamethrower, a sustained lightning attack, a different kind of shield to the normal one, depending on the school.

 

Lastly, why not have, after a fairly considerable amount of work on your Kiddo, let them get this back as a temporary 'super mode' they can access mid-combat:

Spoiler

Image result for warframe transcendence

A powered-up avatar state, though cliché, is so for a reason. 

 

Tl;Dr let the kids have superpowers.

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At this point since operators are more like small buffs to our main warframes id do the following:

1.Let every focus school have a way to regen energy but do it differently say madurai you mark enemies with your void blast and killing them withing a timer restores 3 energy per enemy killed,Vazarin healing your teammates or companions restores 2 energy and so on 

2.Let the operator buffs be a seperate tree no reason for them to part of normal focus trees

3.More unique abilities for each school plus buffs to already existing skills to make them useful

Thats the simple version but honestly id love for there to only be 1 giant focus tree kinda of like Path of Exile that has just an insane amount of skills,buffs,upgrades and modifiers so you can kinda keep progressing and augmenting your gameplay but that might screw up the balance even more

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Assuming we're not talking about "scrap it and start over" (which we really should), I have a few ways in which I'd change Focus.

  1. Scrap the "Waybound" system entirely. Move all of the Waybound passives out of their respective Schools and stick them into a separate School of their own, call it "Fundamentals" and make them cheap. Just like Railjack Intrinsics give you the basics firsts (turret lead indicator, Tactical menu, pilot Boost, etc.) and then expand into more complex and niche abilities, so players should have the option of getting their Operator basics first AND THEN focusing on specific esoteric School abilities. Let us get some meaningful amount of Operator health, armour, energy, speed and ammo, then maybe people won't be as put off by the limitations.
  2. Scrap School-specific Lenses entirely. Instead, merge them all into the same one progression path of Lens -> Greater Lens -> Eidolon Lens -> Lua Lens. Further allow players to choose one School as "Active" and one School as "Study." All focus gained from the Lenses of all currently-equipped gear will go to the Study School, while the player will gain stats and benefits from the Active school. The Fundamentals school would always be active.
  3. Reduce all Focus costs down to 10% of their current values but also reduce the daily Focus cap and the Focus gained from Shards down to 10% as well. This ensures roughly the same Focus progression per day, just in a manner achievable through means other than grinding Sanctuary Onslaught. Like playing the sodding game. Currently, SO/ESO Affinity/Focus gains are entirely out-of-scale with the rest of the game and Focus progression seems to be balanced around playing those modes. Consequently, doing anything else offers negligible Focus progression. I want to see a rebalance.

Beyond that, I don't want to get into specific balance discussions as I don't have enough experience with individual Focus Schools to speak to their balance. I would like to see more parity, however. Having means of recovering energy for all Schools would be a nice first step, even if Zenurik remains the best at it. Warframe's energy system as a whole is... Kind of a mess, but we're operating on a "fix it rather than scrap it" mentality here so I'd say let other schools gain energy somehow, as well. Or failing that, move Energising Dash over to the aforementioned Fundamentals School and give Zenurik some other energy-related ability, such as maybe resisting Leech Eximus / Ancient Disruptor / Magnetic energy drain to some extent?

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