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Prime Riven issue


(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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With the last mass riven nerf to "higher" variants of weapons getting their disposition nerfed, weapons like the Aksomati Prime are outclassed by their regular counter parts using the same riven.  I'm sure this is the case for several weapons.  Even after 5 forma my Kuva Kohm was barely better than my regular Kohm both using a riven.  I feel like this change was completely for the worse as weapons like the Aksomati and Aksomati Prime aren't very good without a riven, which basically makes them swap roles on which is the preferred for use, if you're going to use them at all.  Instead of the prime being the automatic choice, making me want to forma the weapon out for use, the prime becomes mastery fodder as it's not enough of an improvement over what I have for me to care about building it out like I did the regular version.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

With the last mass riven nerf to "higher" variants of weapons getting their disposition nerfed, weapons like the Aksomati Prime are outclassed by their regular counter parts using the same riven.  I'm sure this is the case for several weapons.  Even after 5 forma my Kuva Kohm was barely better than my regular Kohm both using a riven.  I feel like this change was completely for the worse as weapons like the Aksomati and Aksomati Prime aren't very good without a riven, which basically makes them swap roles on which is the preferred for use, if you're going to use them at all.  Instead of the prime being the automatic choice, making me want to forma the weapon out for use, the prime becomes mastery fodder as it's not enough of an improvement over what I have for me to care about building it out like I did the regular version.

I dont know about Aksomati but I need a chart comparing the damages to believe that Kuva Kohm of yours is worse than your normal Kohm. because It is pretty much fallacy imo

Edited by 8faiNt
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Since the Primes have different stats (and with DE now counting them as such) they are different weapons from the regular versions.  Since they are 'new' weapons, DE don't have any usage data which then results in the new weapons having a neutral disposition.  Once DE gain data on the usage of the weapons the dispo will change appropriately, you just need to wait.

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11 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

With the last mass riven nerf to "higher" variants of weapons getting their disposition nerfed

There were five weapons where an advanced version was nerfed.  Yeah, I don't understand the reasoning in some of these cases, and DE should avoid doing this as much as possible.

If we're talking "mass" changes based on this new approach, it was mostly buffs to basic versions.  Which is also potentially dangerous in the long term, but not nearly as immediate or large a danger as nerfing primes.

11 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

weapons like the Aksomati Prime are outclassed by their regular counter parts using the same riven

I'm not sure how true that is in the Akso's case.  But if so, I think it's more a base stats issue than a dispo issue. 

And personally, I don't mind if in a few cases with just the right riven, somebody can eke out the same or a bit more performance out of a base weapon.   As long as it's a fringe thing, rare enough it doesn't disincentivize most players from getting excited about advanced variants, it's kind of cool.   I think the majority of people will do what's, new, easy and shiny, which is primes primes primes.

On 2019-12-12 at 5:11 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Players made it clear that they don’t want situations where the base weapon can become stronger than the upgraded version - we don’t want that either, unless the stars align for a “perfect” roll that works better on an older weapon.

DE just needs to be careful about sticking to this approach, and making sure that variants are differentiated enough to cover differences in disposition most of the time.  We'll know a lot more about how serious they are with the next dispo update, since that should include melee, the kuva weapons, and maybe things like Baza and Akso Prime.

Edited by Tiltskillet
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17 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

I dont know about Aksomati but I need a chart comparing the damages to believe that Kuva Kohm of yours is worse than your normal Kohm. because It is pretty much fallacy imo

My Kohm Riven is just damage and status.  With both with the riven (WITH completely different builds attempting to optimize TTK) TTK is nearly identical.  I think the Kuva version has slightly better ammo efficiency.  There is MORE damage on the stat screen for my regualr kohm simply because of the dispo changes, even with an identical build.

And no, I'm not drawing you a graph.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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1 hour ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

My Kohm Riven is just damage and status.  With both with the riven (WITH completely different builds attempting to optimize TTK) TTK is nearly identical.  I think the Kuva version has slightly better ammo efficiency.  There is MORE damage on the stat screen for my regualr kohm simply because of the dispo changes, even with an identical build.

And no, I'm not drawing you a graph.

Well, even your saying is wrong. so, I dont even need to see a chart to say that you're incorrect. Kuva Kohm has worse ammo efficiency therefore it has better TTK than normal kohm. so, you are changing some factors in your story. you can keep the chart. like i said, I dont need it now that you ve been more clear.

Edited by 8faiNt
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@(XB1)TehChubbyDugan@8faiNt

Why is TTK being used in your discussion when TTK is entirely dependent on enemy level yet no level has been stated?  Wouldn't 'Burst DPS' (being DPS before you need to reload) and 'Sustained DPS' (being DPS over an extended period including reload) be better things to discuss since they aren't connected to enemy health?  Since the Kohm and Kuva Kohm have different fire rates (important for Burst DPS) and magazine capacity (important for Sustained DPS) I think a graph actually would be helpful since it would tell you which weapon reaches what damage threshold faster.  And then all of this isn't even considering the range at which you're engaging the enemy from since according to the Wiki the regular Kohm only loses 47% of it's damage at max fall-off while the Kuva Kohm loses 94%.  To sum up I think the situation is more complex than can easily be concluded without a graph (maybe with a dynamic engagement distance slider) and until either claims can be validated I don't think the discussion will go anywhere.

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Hmm, my Kuva Kohm with a crit build easily outperforms my standard Kohm with a pure damage build on close to medium range (my riven has + firerate, + damage, + multishot on it) while both weapons aren't modded for max status. The bigger problem I have with this disposition changes is, that some of my rivens had rolls with -100%+ Impact on them, eliminating those nasty impact procs that make enemies tumble around therefore preventing proper consecutive headshots (e.g. on my Quartakk). Now the - percentage has dropped below 100% and I get those procs again... annoying. In case of the Aksomati Prime, I feel the prime performs slightly better due to the higher status chance, even with lower riven stats. Nevertheless I like the normal version better, because the prime is so HUGE, it looks absolutely disproportional on certain frames 😉

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