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Okay, lets actually discuss timers.


(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx
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At this point of the game.... I think timers actually serve to drive new players away from the game rather than serving any role in retaining them because anything you need to build, you're going to have to wait days for, after already having spent days to weeks grinding for materials, grinding for blue prints, grinding for everything, now you have to just wait and stare at a progress bar..... This is going to make many new players just "nope" right out of this rather than going to the market to buy something. 

Meanwhile older players and veterans don't specifically "need" anything, and have such a preponderance of components that many of us can build anything we want, when ever we want. A lot of people have hundreds of forma, and will never need to wait to build anything, while new players are told "no you have to spend money for something that's literally going to just disappear, or spend days waiting just to build your weapon. 

If anyone can, through empirical data, prove that the timers are helping Warframe retain new players, I'd like to see it. Because Warframe simply cannot last forever if they are relying only on their veterans because veterans on the whole spend less money than new players. New player wants to play wisp. Well, if they don't have friends to carry them, they gonna be waiting a while. Or they can just buy her. New player wants i don't know.... Acceltra. Again, they'll be waiting a while or they can just buy it. Just the fact that you have to work your way through the game to eventually get what you want is enough of a wait. Yes I have multiple reasons I think timers need to go which i won't go into here or now but on the whole I think that timers are something that were helpful to de's revenue at one time but are now actually damaging new player retention, which is actually financially harming them...

So, I'm here to listen. Please provide me your rational arguments for why timers are still necessary in 2020 given that warframe needs new players and the timer system only harms the players that DE most needs getting into the game while being mostly benign to older players. "Because DE said so and DE is the dev and DE is always right because they are DE" is not a valid argument. I will concede that timers were once useful to DE's revenues. My concern is that they are now harming DE, as is clear by increasing numbers of arguments against them.

Case and point. You cannot deal with the Liches until you have heavily invested into the game. They could have made kuva weapons have a five day timer and significant resource reqs and they are worth it if built right. But DE specifically decided on no timer at all, and to grant them to you instantly. That to me is an admission that even DE no longer has faith that timers are a good thing for their revenue or their players.

I await your opinions. 


 

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I dont care about new players or how they feel or how boring the game is because they are limited.

they knew what  they were buying(playing)

we all have been there

I dont care if the x mission isnt newbie friendly. simply, git gud. I dont see nothing wrong.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

I dont care about new players or how they feel or how boring the game is because they are limited.

they knew what  they were buying(playing)

we all have been there

I dont care if the x mission isnt newbie friendly. simply, git gud. I dont see nothing wrong.

 

 

When i started warframe. "You should come play warframe, the community is so warm and inviting, everyone just wants to help each other have a good time" now? ^^^^ This. Anyone who doesn't believe that Warframe is every bit as toxic as Destiny or call of duty need look no further than the above statement.

So let me make the following statement clear. "I don't care about new players" is equal to saying "I don't care if DE goes bankrupt and turns off the servers erasing my years of gameplay." If you do not care about new players, you do not care about warframe. 

Edited by (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx
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10 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

 "I don't care about new players" is equal to saying "I don't care if DE goes bankrupt and turns off the servers erasing my years of gameplay. If you do not care about new players, you do not care about warframe. 

Its because I dont care about warframe anymore. It's not like this game will die either. My actions have no effect overall to the game. I dont care if a newb player cant do everything the day they started playing the game. We all have been there. We, as veterans didnt get a special treatment. We have waited for items and farmed them. This isnt your classic CS GO match where you join a game and after 3 rounds you buy AWP. This is a collection game and everything takes time. If you simply cant handle the await, warframe isnt the type of game for that player.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

When i started warframe. "You should come play warframe, the community is so warm and inviting, everyone just wants to help each other have a good time" now? ^^^^ This. Anyone who doesn't believe that Warframe is every bit as toxic as Destiny or call of duty need look no further than the above statement.

This isnt being toxic. It is being very realistic. Some people cant handle the reality. Also, ''boo hoo... someone I saw is talking roood this game very toxiiiiicccc'' This isnt even the game itself. How do you came up with the idea of game being '' toxic '' just because someone on the forums talked in a way that you are not happy with?

Edited by 8faiNt
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Personally, I think it's too integral to their core vision to consider removal. You can either buy/rush the things you want with platinum, or you can sit through timers and get it for free. That's literally what makes Warframe, well, Warframe.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

given that warframe needs new players and the timer system only harms the players that DE most needs

That's quite an assumption.
 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Well, if they don't have friends to carry them, they gonna be waiting a while.

Recuiting chat is pretty quick. So is matchmaking.
 

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

as is clear by increasing numbers of arguments against them.

This is literally the first complaint I've heard about them, so its obviously not a pressing matter.
 

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

But DE specifically decided on no timer at all, and to grant them to you instantly.

The "timer" is built into actually progressing through the lich system, through multiple gamemodes, and finally through fully ranking the weapon, which also has subtimers.
 

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

A lot of people have hundreds of forma

Not according to the amount of people I see wanting another Plague Star event.

I have no issue with the current timer system as it is; I consider it a fair trade-off in exchange for not giving them dollars, I give them my time and support the community/population.

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15 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

That's quite an assumption.

It really isn't. Any live game be it warframe or wow that isn't constantly getting new players is in a downward spiral because the veterans will, absolutely, get bored eventually, and when they leave, rather for a short period or forever, if there's not someone to replace them, pretty soon the dev stops making money, and when the dev stops making money, they stop making content, and when they stop making content, the remaining veterans start leaving, and when the dev starts running at a loss, the game gets closed. Warframe needs new players. 
 

18 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

This is literally the first complaint I've heard about them, so its obviously not a pressing matter.

No it's not. Every week there are multiple posts which can be linked back to the timer, people asking for an "Assembly line" option on foundry so that things will be built continuously instead of needing people to specifically collect and restart, issues of timing. People have a lot of issues with the timer. They just don't realize the timer is the issue. At this moment i could build 150 forma. Assuming i want to wait for about half a year. The in game currencies are also timers, as are the relic systems. We have timers on top of timers ontop of timers, even timers on how long we have to use some items (argon crystals are literally a joke to the dev team if you actually read the flashing text on the app while it's loading). Just the timer on the foundry is the only one that exists only to make you sit around with your thumb up your ass waiting. 

18 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

The "timer" is built into actually progressing through the lich system, through multiple gamemodes, and finally through fully ranking the weapon, which also has subtimers.

Yeah and I've seen dozens of posts around the internet saying that the lich system is way too long, way too grindy, and way too random. So again, under your description of it as being a "timer". People are not happy with the "process" timer, even with the instant pay off once you've gotten your lich killed. 

18 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Not according to the amount of people I see wanting another Plague Star event.

Yeah and in all those same posts i see loads of people say, and I quote "i have *insert number* forma, we don't need another plague star event because i have all i need!"

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2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Then why are you still here? If you are commenting on this forums that means you are indirectly care about the game.

why is it even your concern, how I waste my time on online? I can... and I will waste my time however i please it to be. Want to find a logic? there's none.

Also, I dont care about warframe as in I dont care if warframe dies or not. Which you would actually get your answer and you wouldnt need me to answer you if you read like 2 more sentences instead of being so nitpicky.

gawd... some people...

 

also, for your information, Im not even here. Im looking for things or updates or some threads and leaving the forum after some time. but still I fail to understand why tf it is your responsibility to check why I am playing or being here like im some sort of unwanted guest or something. like, do you feel responsible that I am here? so dumb that someone wants to question others being like they are some sort of lord of the forum.

and the assumption too like.. lol. this isnt sherlock holmes. You're not a detective. Your assumptions about people on the internet is just laughable.

'' hmmm... he says that he dont care about warframe but hes still here... he still must like this game hmmm... ''

Edited by 8faiNt
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vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx:

Case and point. You cannot deal with the Liches until you have heavily invested into the game. They could have made kuva weapons have a five day timer and significant resource reqs and they are worth it if built right. But DE specifically decided on no timer at all, and to grant them to you instantly. That to me is an admission that even DE no longer has faith that timers are a good thing for their revenue or their players.

With DE you can never be sure if something has a thought process behind it or is just inconsistent. IMO you only ever should have either build time/requirements or random stats, never both. I can only speak about myself here but the build timers on weapons and frames were never decidedly a bad thing, it always was just 'alright that thing is done tomorrow, meanwhile i can do another thing'. Maybe I'm weird about that.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx:

At this point of the game.... I think timers actually serve to drive new players away from the game rather than serving any role in retaining them because anything you need to build, you're going to have to wait days for, after already having spent days to weeks grinding for materials, grinding for blue prints, grinding for everything, now you have to just wait and stare at a progress bar..... This is going to make many new players just "nope" right out of this rather than going to the market to buy something. 

Just sitting there and staring at a progress bar doesnt sound very exciting to me, dont people have anything else to do? That seems a very obsessive thing to do. Ideally people do something else like farm for another thing or play another game while stuff is building.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx:

Meanwhile older players and veterans don't specifically "need" anything, and have such a preponderance of components that many of us can build anything we want, when ever we want. A lot of people have hundreds of forma, and will never need to wait to build anything, while new players are told "no you have to spend money for something that's literally going to just disappear, or spend days waiting just to build your weapon. 

Personally I almost never rush builds, I dont really understand what you mean by "going to disappear". What is disappearing?

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx:

If anyone can, through empirical data, prove that the timers are helping Warframe retain new players, I'd like to see it. Because Warframe simply cannot last forever if they are relying only on their veterans because veterans on the whole spend less money than new players. New player wants to play wisp. Well, if they don't have friends to carry them, they gonna be waiting a while. Or they can just buy her. New player wants i don't know.... Acceltra. Again, they'll be waiting a while or they can just buy it. Just the fact that you have to work your way through the game to eventually get what you want is enough of a wait. Yes I have multiple reasons I think timers need to go which i won't go into here or now but on the whole I think that timers are something that were helpful to de's revenue at one time but are now actually damaging new player retention, which is actually financially harming them...

You probably wont get your data because businesses dont usually give out detailed sales data analysis. 

So is this about foundry timers or the amount of time it takes you to get to the later frames? To me it seems you are mashing them together for no good reason because the first one is just wait timers for a thing and the second one is your new player progression.

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As timers are one of those things that kind of encourage people to spend money even if small amounts its a way for De to keep a regular revenue stream but im not sure if they even earn that much from those anymore.Plus i believe theyre a nice reminder to not burn yourself out on the game "hey im crafting these 2 new guns and a warframe ill take a break for today and play more tomorrow".

But to be completely honest i do feel like they should be shortened dramatically the max timer should be like 12 hours for a warframe not 3 days and dropping the weapons to like 6 hours or maybe even 3 plus id love for forma to only take 1 hour to craft not 24.

It is quite a pain in the beginning since new players have a large amount of stuff to make and test out so you will constantly either be switching out weapons or waiting for more things to craft and it can leave a bad impression

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I think DE focuses on new players quite a bit. It would be nice if DE started considering how to entertain people over a thousand hours more often.

Timers are fine in this game. It's one of those things that is very integral to Warframe. It's always been the "grind or pay to skip" model.

Edited by Voltage
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Honestly the timers are there, but they are far from being a compulsory thing. As others have mentioned players also have the option of paying to rush. Which leads us to 2 play options for players in Warframe, without hurting DE as a company:

  • Players who have free time, but no money - can use that free time to earn stuff by farming, and waiting. This means that you just might stay in game for a bit longer, discover new things, maybe even farm up some plat on the trade chat.
  • Players who have some time, but not enough to grind, and have money - can use said money to skip most of the grind and go straight to the core experience of Warframe.

Taking the timers out would mean that those play free have the game pretty much handed to them apart from grind and rng - which would probably become worse than it already is to make up for the timer loss - and those who pay to skip would have no incentive to do so. Then we must consider that those who do not pay, unlike those who do pay, will burn through content at an alarming rate - and thus demand for more content, harder than the harcore players now. Which leads us to the following statement as well:

Warframe is that easy game, precisely because it's free, for players to get into. I'm not talking about the new player's experience or bugs or whatever. I'm just saying that if you wanna try out Warframe, staying or not, it demanded no sacrifice from you. Unlike other games you do not have to pay upfront just to experience the full game. The game basically thrives on glorified donations from those who do want to spend money on it. And those who cannot contribute financially can at least contribute with their time and extended experience. 

But that is all regarding the game from an internal viewpoint. What about "staring at a timer"? Well if a player's concept of playing a game is staring at a timer I feel like it won't be too hard to find them some alternative entertaining, like watching the laundry machine spin. Those who don't need to watch the timer closely know there's a multitude of things to do inside the game (remember we're talking about new players and the timer's effect on them, so they still need tons of stuff), like earning credits, farming endo, farming more gear, mods, tackling other kinds of content (finished with PoE? Then go start Fortuna, etc.), farming the plat to buy more spaces to fit more content. And that's just in-game. Players can also, outside of the game:

  • Go play other games;
  • Go take a hike, do household tasks, etc.;
  • Go find a job in order to skip the timers themselves since they won't have time to stare at a progress bar.

That's basically it, I'm afraid. Could it change? Yes. In a way that benefits DE - and by extension the community - in the long run? Probably not. Then again it wouldn't be the first time DE erased a system from the game in case it didn't really make a solid difference to them but made players happy. So I find it unlikely but not impossible.

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93
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7 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

At this point of the game.... I think timers actually serve to drive new players away from the game rather than serving any role in retaining them because anything you need to build, you're going to have to wait days for, after already having spent days to weeks grinding for materials, grinding for blue prints, grinding for everything, now you have to just wait and stare at a progress bar..... This is going to make many new players just "nope" right out of this rather than going to the market to buy something. 

This is where I lost a friend of mine off the game. One of the last things we discussed before he finally uninstalled the game entirely was along the lines of: I'm so sick of putting in work and then getting told "Great! Here's a blueprint. Now go build your own damn reward." Granted, that wasn't the ONLY thing, but it was a big one. Warframe's build timers serve no real purpose other than to potentially suck money out of whales. They exist for the same reason that Mobile games have timers, for the same reason Farmville had timers. They either test your patience, or else make you come back next day. It's appointment mechanics in their most naked form and one implementation that I personally can't really justify keeping in the game.

 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Timers are fine in this game. It's one of those things that is very integral to Warframe. It's always been the "grind or pay to skip" model.

In what way are they "integral?" What could possibly be lost in the experience by removing timers? Does anyone ever even pay to skip those things? I'm a self-confessed whale who probably shouldn't have financial independence and even I balk at the thought of paying 25 Plat to skip a 12-hour wait. I get it MAYBE for stuff like Forma since you can earn it a lot faster than you can make it, which encourages buying forma, but for weapons and Warframes? What exactly is "integral" about those? You can't "grind" a timer and it's not worth paying for it.

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I think there are two key pieces of information missing from this discussion:

  1. How much income DE makes from rush fees.
  2. How many players quit due to timers.

From an ethical and design perspective, I think it's a pretty simple assessment that the system is an artificial inconvenience created just to extract more income from players. On the flipside, the one argument in defense of the mechanic is that it generates income, so in the end, ethics of F2P monetization systems aside, I think it just comes down to whether DE is truly benefiting from such a system. Bulletpoint 1 I think would likely be easy for DE to know, because that should be on their income statement, but bulletpoint 2 is tougher, because that relies on players indicating that timers are driving them away from playing. After that, it's a matter of assigning a monetary value to these lost prospective customers, and measuring it up against income gained from rush fees: personally, I suspect rush fees aren't actually used that much for most items other than some exceptions (e.g. Forma), but I could be wrong. I'd thus very much like to get rid of this monetization system entirely, as it relies upon making gameplay worse for players, but that would need to be backed up by concrete evidence.

On that note, though, I do think we should be able to get rid of timers that can't be rushed: the Railjack repair timer in the quest I think is the biggest example of this, and while it perhaps made sense at a time when DE really wanted to pad out the waiting period before the big update, now it just adds to the tedium of a quest that doesn't actually have any real reason to exist altogether, at least not in its hyper-resource-gatey form.

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Instant forma. You just cut DE's income from me by thousands of plat. Literally now, by amounts, i spent plat on 2 things: forma bundles and skins stuff. I don't like most of the skins so formas win. 

And i was there as well.. a newbie. I used the same foundry, but i managed it well.. my problem was always too much stuff to try and level up, too few slots to keep all that. I did not feel any time gates at all.

I rushed one thing in 1.4khours and it was the injector for raid. 

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