Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Core issue with warframe's resource economy and what I think might solve it


Rage_Inducer
 Share

Recommended Posts

There's too many resources.

It may seem simple but the "Content Island" problem is directly tied to this as each update has had tons of new resources added that only serve their respective island.
There's too many different types and too many stockpiled up that we have no realistic way of spending.
This isnt a problem that can be solved by just making all new updates use the same starchart resources we have because there's people like me with absurd amounts of everything in the starchart that any new update would involve just me crafting the new shiny, getting the MR out of it and not playing any more (stuff like the sibear did not even put a dent in my cryotic stash). What we need is a propper resource sink for all these things we get millions of.
Buying debt bonds is actually a good idea, they just need to pull more from the starchart resources. Another cool idea would be to make some cosmetics available only for ridiculous resource amounts (craftable skins similar to the rubedo plated ones would certainly get the attention of many bored veterans). Squad energy restores are the reason my polymer bundle stash is relatively low. We need more things like this, consumables that people actually want to use. One way to put a dent in these stashes would be to make some sort of donation for 10.000 any resource for a reasonable amount of standing with syndicates over the daily cap.

I might not have the best ideas on what to spend these resources on but I am certain that a propper resource sink will allow for future updates to keep players busy without having to add however many new resources and also solve the content island problem.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly this is a beaten problem, and one that could be fixed by preventing over-stockpiling. DE should revamp it all.

We go round and round creating new resources, something that doesn't really make sense lore-wise, just for players to stockpile them again and once again create the need for yet new resources.

DE should come up with a way to prevent that. Argon Crystals are a good example, though a decay should not be the universal answer but rather part of it. Like have decay on some resources, a stock limit on other resources, among other clever ways to prevent massive resource pools.

I honeslty see advantages only. Players would always have something to farm, and in low quantities (since with no resource stockpiles a Hema incident is far fetched), it means less development effort in creating these alternate resources, and it also means consistency throughout the game - Are you farming Orokin Cells in Saturn? Well, guess what, they should be there in Saturn Proxima as well instead of completely new resources.

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i doubt  DE will ever change  the resource economy  and the way DE  puts new ressource ever time and the rarity off it every time   isnt something they cant do  they will never do it

if DE doesnt add new resource every time new content drops and make it really rare to farm the grind and rng they want to create will  be non existence .Take exanple of recent Railzack  resource framing and how because they added a way to buy pass the grind by adding a simple thing (forget the name) they had to quickly remove it . because people were ust uising plat to min max every thing and complete the content  which DE thought would give them time for atleast a 2/3 months or more

final point the resource economy exists because its the only way people will grind  and DE can hide behind the no content barier saying u dont have this resource so that isgrind

I like this idea tho

16 minutes ago, Rage_Inducer said:

 Another cool idea would be to make some cosmetics available only for ridiculous resource amounts (craftable skins similar to the rubedo plated ones would certainly get the attention of many bored veterans). Squad energy restores are the reason my polymer bundle stash is relatively low. We need more things like this, consumables that people actually want to use. One way to put a dent in these stashes would be to make some sort of donation for 10.000 any resource for a reasonable amount of standing with syndicates over the daily cap.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of these solutions only delay the stockpile problem, not solve it. Paying ten mil credits for a captura scene is nothing, and it wouldnt have been even if it costed 100 mil. They only way to permanently get rid of player stockpiles is by introducing worthwhile consumables. Things like the pads we use, just more of them. Have them affect different parts of the game. Consumables that modify missions. Faster enemies for the next 5 waves of defense. Boost enemy levels, boost your run speed, suck in all the loot within 250m once - these things are what players would constantly waste their resources on.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of trading resources for other resources. Maybe that can be added to Maroo's Bazaar. Make a climbing chart, like you can get Uncommon resources with Common ones, and can only get Rare with Uncommon resources. Probably still need Rare to get the "super" Rare.

Like, you can trade 10,000 Alloy Plates for 1,000 Rubedo.

Trade 1,000 Rubedo for 50 Control Modules.

Trade 50 Control Modules for one Argon.

The numbers are just examples, obviously it would need to be balanced based on their actual drop quantities and rarity. It would also be nice to be able to trade within the same rarity tier, like uncommon to other uncommon.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the problem with resources is as simple as it is fundamental to the system:

  • Resources are a measure of time spent playing some portion of the game's content, and so accumulate over time, particularly when there is no mechanic to limit their accrual.
  • Resources are also used to gate access to rewards in content, in the form of a generally finite set of resource sinks.
  • Because players accumulate resources infinitely, but only spend them on finite rewards, players eventually have more resources than they can spend.

This is a problem that affects any sort of standard currency or resource system in any game that encourages long-term replayability, and currency hyperinflation in MMOs has always been a notorious problem. However, I don't support turning resources into other resources, because of the second point in the above: ultimately, resources are there to make the player play a certain portion of content, which is why we have localized resources, and new resources with every expansion. Allowing the player to turn time spent on previous content into time spent on new content via currency exchange to bypass the grind defeats the point of different resources, as well as new content, while I think also doing the exact opposite of what content gates should aim for: the players in greatest need of content to play are veterans, who have spent the most time on the game, and have little to nothing else to do when an update hits. Letting them bypass content ends up giving them the least to do out of all players, when they're also already better-equipped than anyone else to blaze through what little content they cannot buy their way through. As such, whichever changes we implement to resources should not degenerate into making veterans ignore new content.

Things I think could help address problems in our resource system:

  • Upper resource limits, just like Void Traces. This prevents players from stockpiling too much of any resource, so that even veterans would have a reason to grind for them. This does, however, still mean players end up stockpiling resources anyway, just to lesser amounts.
  • Resource decay, just like Argon Crystals. This prevents players from stockpiling resources in any large amount and too far in advance, ultimately putting veterans and newcomers at around the same level. This does, however, impose severe constraints on how much grinding it allows for, because it requires players to grind resources all in one go if they cannot put them safely into whatever they're working towards in smaller amounts.
  • Scrapping the resource system entirely, and making item rewards more challenge-based, just like Riven Mods. This would be the most drastic and complicated of changes, but would also be the one likeliest to avoid the overall grinding problem, and inject more gameplay into our rewards. If obtaining a weapon were a matter of killing a certain powerful enemy, or completing a difficult mission, a bit like the Grendel challenges but not crap, doing so would still require "grinding", in the sense that we'd have to play through content and spend time on the game to earn it, but that "grind" would feel much more involved than just hoovering up various resources, and would also be likely to make those items feel genuinely earned, rather than paid for at some irrelevant cost. It would also take away a level of abstraction between our play and our rewards, which sometimes ends up masking especially awful resource grinding requirements (if the Hema's research requirements were framed as "spend 12 hours in Orokin Derelict Defense with this hyper-specific team composition", it would lose all semblance of justifiability). 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wasn't rebuilding the relays supposed to be a resource sink?

It definitely is a bit silly, that we have all these resources and then we have to farm new resources for all the new content. Solving this would require a lot of things to be changed.

1. It would make sense to have new content require more different kinds of resources, that make you go back to different content

2. I would introduce a trading system, that allows players to use stuff they have too much of in an inefficient way. This way you still get something out of every type of content. You can actually stack up stuff very quickly as long as you actually enjoy the content you find it in.

3. Riven rerolls are a resource sink, that actually works pretty well. Void keys also seemed to work better than relics right now. Going into the void to get prime parts was something at least one person had to work for and was something special even without the prime parts. Now everything just blends in.

4.There is still a problem with long time players, that just have way too much. Some players seemed to like pedestal prime, but that won't attract everybody. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor 50 Minuten schrieb gluih:

Wasn't rebuilding the relays supposed to be a resource sink?

On top of solar rails which was scrapped for the juncitons which made the map change once agian the fifth time or so and for railjack as this big epic space adventure.

Which so far is onyl different type of exterminations each mission so far, not played far yet so but if the first 6 misisons are the exact same then what should i expect of the rest.

solar rails should come back in some way besides as junctions, i mean we still have the research for it after all.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

hace 4 horas, AuroraSonicBoom dijo:

All of these solutions only delay the stockpile problem, not solve it. Paying ten mil credits for a captura scene is nothing, and it wouldnt have been even if it costed 100 mil. They only way to permanently get rid of player stockpiles is by introducing worthwhile consumables...

Yeah that's... pretty much what I've said. I like your ideas as well. Any worthwhile consumable we can dump resources in would be nice.

 

hace 3 horas, Teridax68 dijo:

I think the problem with resources is as simple as it is fundamental to the system:

  • Resources are a measure of time spent playing some portion of the game's content, and so accumulate over time, particularly when there is no mechanic to limit their accrual.
  • Resources are also used to gate access to rewards in content, in the form of a generally finite set of resource sinks.
  • Because players accumulate resources infinitely, but only spend them on finite rewards, players eventually have more resources than they can spend.

I don't agree with that. All 3 of those points stop being a thing if DE implements something that will be in infinite demand.

Here's a terrible idea that might do the trick for some people I know: What if we could trade in a specific number of resources for kuva? Something like a 100 to 1 ratio for kuva. Sure the kuva would pour in for the first couple months but I know it's a resource that few people can be arsed to get yet they constantly spend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Rage_Inducer said:

Here's a terrible idea that might do the trick for some people I know: What if we could trade in a specific number of resources for kuva? Something like a 100 to 1 ratio for kuva. Sure the kuva would pour in for the first couple months but I know it's a resource that few people can be arsed to get yet they constantly spend.

I wouldn't mind spending most of my resources on something like kuva. It's better than just having them lying around for no reason. They could even do the same with the railjack components for all I care.

I would make 1 change however. I would make it, so the reroll cost goes down after a while. So you would get a cheap reroll, maybe once a week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The funny thing is that they revamp the system virtually every time there is a patch.  Rather than fix cost vs. acquisition, they simply introduce a new resource and start everyone at zero with their current intended rate of acquisition.  This rate is always entirely too low, too exclusive(often one clumsy, awful way to get it), and eventually gets changed to be more plentiful and inclusive.  Literally repeating the same mistake ad nauseum actually winds up being a total fix for the entire issue that is, at the very least, semi effective.

It also has the side effect of being almost comical with the original resources.  We wind up with millions of something and no realistic way to use them, things like nanospores.  I could use those things for ammunition and it'd still be weeks, maybe months before I ran out without picking up more.

They'd tried going to route of inflating prices, but that left us with the wildly popular(sic) Sibear and Hema dilemmas.  Most folks hate that kinda crap, so bloated costs are just too unpopular to deal with.  Hiking prices of consumables like restores would also be unpopular, they already exist as a constant spend point but I doubt folks would really want to start getting selective about their usage due to cost.

Being able to trade them for other resources, or upgrade them to other resources, would be great.  Wealth would actually transfer into being wealth, no more starting at square one, because honestly, once you've gotten your way to the point that you no longer have to deal with resources, when does a person really want to knock themselves down a peg(folks that actually reroll or scale themselves down for fun being an obvious outlier).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the stockpile issue is not anything new when it comes to developing games that require resources to progress and receives regular updates.

the solution is create new resources per new content update. FFXIV's crafting and recourse systems still applies new resources per content update to prevent stockpile issues, and the new resources are nothing more than reskinned pictures (but it works).

the problem is that warframe manages its new resources poorly.

i think a forge/blacksmith progression system would work in warframe. players can discover recipes in order to craft the newer materials. players would need to consistently forge items and gear in order to progress in "forge smith," thus creating a new resource sink. the amount of affinity players would get toward forge smithing would depending on how rare the resources are in order to craft the item.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Honestly this is a beaten problem, and one that could be fixed by preventing over-stockpiling. DE should revamp it all.

We go round and round creating new resources, something that doesn't really make sense lore-wise, just for players to stockpile them again and once again create the need for yet new resources.

The issue is too many resources are present and we cant create a exchange system, The fact D.E. keeps introducing new resources to start people from round zero is a massive issue. Since its a perpetual grind that has no respect towards higher end players. If D.E. wanted to GATE content, instead of B.S. drop rates or putting in likely just as bad drop rate resources. The gate needs to be more skill wise. Remember the freaking Junctions? Those acted as good minor skill gates where people had to do small things and defeat a specter, which may seem easy these days, back when it was still newer content, it was not something people can just one shot like a yolo that easily.

I would honestly rather content have similar gates like promotion tests to unlock higher tiers of things like recipes, where its a display of skill that shows we are ready to start handling more op stuff. Because we `earned` the right to them. Granted it could likely just be tied to MR like usual, but that would just be a rather dik`ish move when we start talking about vaulted primes and the b.s. system that relic fissures is right now which requires 3 types of grinds just to do your first fishing chance for prime parts, 2 if you are only chasing common parts. Which most of the time, prime parts are going to have atleast 2 to 3 out of 4 parts as uncommon & radiant.

Quote

DE should come up with a way to prevent that. Argon Crystals are a good example, though a decay should not be the universal answer but rather part of it. Like have decay on some resources, a stock limit on other resources, among other clever ways to prevent massive resource pools.

No, FK-ing NO! Forcing people to have to restock resources because they can decay is just as retarded of a system as the durability & repair system most games implemented as a b.s. time gate mechanic.  If D.E.`s concern was people being able to obtain resources so easily, then they should of never invented `loot frames`, `resource boosters` and even Dark sector maps. Heck on that same note you can say every endless mode is a b.s. card

The best solution is condensing resources to a simple means, create ways to exchange large amount of resources for other goods, etc. 

Sadly D.E. is way too far from having an actual crafting system or barter system since normal resources are quite literally trash value in exchange, especially as long as platinum exists as a super ultimate universal exchange value for too many goods, despite the value of goods keep getting degraded by the b.s. system we called market chat so people are unable to get much plat unless they can abuse the riven market or more greedy methods like selling primes for huge premiums as soon as they become unvaulted or released.

Never the less, resource pools are not the issue, its the idea of constantly bringing in new resource pools and doing things like cramming resources unrelated to the management of that new content. Namely how rubedo and ferrite kept getting crammed into railjack, despite them and relics are completely unrelated to railjack currently and act as dead b.slap to the face drops to run into. But again, there is no proper way they can fix it after this long, if they nerf the gain rates, then its going to piss off the grinders and people who prepare to have a stock ready to build new weapons without taking an extra several hours to prepare new goods.

Quote

I honeslty see advantages only. Players would always have something to farm, and in low quantities (since with no resource stockpiles a Hema incident is far fetched), it means less development effort in creating these alternate resources, and it also means consistency throughout the game - Are you farming Orokin Cells in Saturn? Well, guess what, they should be there in Saturn Proxima as well instead of completely new resources.

The FK-ing Hema and Sibear are a result of D.E.`s stupidity to clearly of not fixed research/crafting costs by taking 1 to 2 Zeros off thar dang cost list and then refunding the over-spent goods straight to the players inventories.

Sheeting on the concept of looter based games, by making it seem like people should get SURVIVAL based gameplay, on a game you are clearly not in a survival situation is another fine example of trying to make a game company develop a game AWAY from what its base concept is, a freaking looter shooter space ninja parkour. You are not stuck on a failing ship with broken storage containers, your not on some island where you are too brain dead to construct storage to keep some goods keep some fresh-ness longer.

If warframe suddenly made all resources able to decay, even if its once again, a 1 month wait before goods can start decaying. I can say for fking certain you are going to have MANY players leave in a bloody riot of a even more ridiculous idea then putting Rng-sus on kuva lich weapons & railjack parts.

Plus the only real economies that need to be TOUCHED is how market chat is the 2nd most toxic place after region chat in terms of how to make use of it and that riven mods need to get burned out of existence at how much of an issue they brought to warframe, when they were originally made to buff weaker weapons but instead became a sheet show to buff op weapons even more instead, since D.E. was too scared to make 1-2 disposition have extremely terrible values.

Edited by Avienas
updated text
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Rage_Inducer said:

I don't agree with that. All 3 of those points stop being a thing if DE implements something that will be in infinite demand.

Here's a terrible idea that might do the trick for some people I know: What if we could trade in a specific number of resources for kuva? Something like a 100 to 1 ratio for kuva. Sure the kuva would pour in for the first couple months but I know it's a resource that few people can be arsed to get yet they constantly spend.

There are arguably only two things in the game that are truly in "infinite demand": Energy consumables, and Kuva. The former are taken only for fairly niche situations, and the latter is only in "infinite demand" because the current Kuva economy is balanced in such a way that there is only a limited amount of Rivens available that people are looking for. If people were to be able to dump all their resources into rerolling Rivens, this would accelerate that pace. Two outcomes would therefore be possible:

  • The market floods with so many good Rivens that demand begins to dry up, and Kuva no longer becomes in "infinite" demand due to buyers being largely satisfied.
  • The Kuva economy and the resource-to-Kuva conversion rates are adjusted to brace for thousands of players putting thousands of hours' worth of accumulated resources into this new system, leading to a resource dump so inefficient as to feel like a scam.

Neither I think are particularly desirable outcomes. One could perhaps look for some other item that'd be in "infinite demand", but then again, what would that item be? DE tried to give us that with Echoes of Umbra not too long ago, and that did not go down well at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...