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AliceLaFay

why is khora's whipclaw not an exalted weapon?

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So there are some issues with Khora's Whipclaw, It uses mods from your equipped melee weapon, and not all mods even do anything (speed for example, or weapon specific mods). Needless to say this is a nuisance because the goal builds for the weapon and for whipclaw are going to be different in most cases. Since rivens do work, it incentivizes using the weapon strictly as a stat stick, and tailoring the riven to the whipclaw instead of the weapon it's intended for. Also this means that the best in slot melee weapons are going to be those that have a high disposition, and then you have to get a riven for that weapon.

This used to be an issue with many other frames, and it was fixed in one go by making exalted weapons moddable separately.

Can we please make whipclaw an exalted weapon? The current implementation is a bit janky.

Edited by AliceLaFay
clarification
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I'd like to get rid of all of these "pseudo" exalted weapons, with the melee rework id like to use my melee and not build it only for a skill use...at the other side i also like the dmg of my high disposition riven stat sticks ūüėĄ .... so change to exalted with a slight buff?

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Possible reason is energy management changing to full exalted weapon would mean changing it to a drain type, which reduces energy gains eg not affected by energy vampire etc.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Possible reason is energy management changing to full exalted weapon would mean changing it to a drain type, which reduces energy gains eg not affected by energy vampire etc.

Energy has nothing to do with it.

Garuda has talons moddable as an extaled weapon, which are not connected to any ability, it's simply a weapon you swing with.

Khora currently has a moddable exalted kavat, there is no drain over time with the kavat abilities.

Ivara's artemis bow consumes energy when shot.

The fact that some exalted weapons are connected to a drain over time ability means nothing.

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Well, all exalted weapons we have atm we can equip and pay energy/sec. That whip is just a basic skill that they buffed allowing mods to increase the dmg. Otberwise, they would have to make every ability weapon into another exalted...(wew more formas to waste). Like the glass blade from Gara, the fists from Atlas, the shurikens from ash and so on.

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10 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

Well, all exalted weapons we have atm we can equip and pay energy/sec.

False.

Read my above reply.

Making weapons separately level-able and mod-able solved a problem, and that problem exists for whipclaw as well. Fretting over the term "exalted" is missing the point.

Edited by AliceLaFay
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I don't like the stat stick thing either, but why do we need another exalted weapon? Can you at least come up with an interesting mechanic, that would make it different from a regular whip? It also has a nice AoE and I wouldn't want to give that up for an alternative melee weapon.

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26 minutes ago, gluih said:

I don't like the stat stick thing either, but why do we need another exalted weapon? Can you at least come up with an interesting mechanic, that would make it different from a regular whip? It also has a nice AoE and I wouldn't want to give that up for an alternative melee weapon.

You don't need to change the functionality of the ability. Just take what is there, but make it a separate mod loadout. This is really simple.

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Yeah, see my very similar thread from Christmas. The best comparison to point to is Hildryn: Her pseudo-Exalted Balefire Charger is also a 1 instead of a 4, also drains only on attack, and also has an AoE range that is considered part of the ability and scales with ability range. But Garuda is another good example, who has a weapon that's explicitly not an Exalted, but has a separate build.

The problem:

At present, Atlas, Khora, and Gara are the only frames with statstick abilities that encourage sacrificing your melee weapon for a proper ability build. All can benefit from rivens, and all benefit from an otherwise unique damage mult that adds .25x total damage per combo stack. Of them, only Khora's has the base crit to make use of Blood Rush, and it does so with gusto. It's almost beside the point to mention that Accumulating Whipclaw exists, offers nearly a 5x multiplier on top of the rest, and functions exactly like augments for other exalted weapons, particularly Primal Rage. With all the multipliers going, the damage output can also be obscenely high in comparison to regular melee or Exalteds.

I've had my Khora using a Kama with a build dedicated to, and a riven rolled for, Whipclaw, with no range or speed and lots of elemental damage and crit. Recently, I've instead been using a Destreza Prime, because it looks good with her and is fun to use. It grants a fraction of the damage to Whipclaw that the Kama did, and Whipclaw remains useful, but is not easily one-shotting heavies this way. The gameplay is much more fun, since I'm not limited to one attack and that one attack isn't one-shotting bloody everything in sight with no effort.

One other real disadvantage at the moment is that nowhere in the Arsenal can you see and mod the actual stats of the Whipclaw attack. The Ability tooltip in Khora's build screen ignores the melee mods, but the melee build of course has no idea you're building for Whipclaw. So building for Whipclaw means going to the wiki and finding out what mods are legal, then making up a spreadsheet. It's kinda dumb. 

If Whipclaw worked like Balefire:

Exalted melee is in a bad place at the moment for high level content, and I honestly think it needs rethinking, with more emphasis on the "ability" part of the weapon and less on the weapon, which itself should mod normally and be allowed to have Blood Rush etc. Converting Whipclaw into a regular exalted like Hildryn's would remove the passive combo mult from the ability, the ability to abuse rivens, and the ability to use Blood Rush in keeping with other exalted melee, so it'd mean losing something like 10-20x worth of damage multiplication at a full combo stack. Considering that a very dedicated Accumulating Whipclaw build can deal 4M damage per hit, it doesn't sound terrible, but Whipclaw does feel pretty weak in practice when I'm using it with my Destreza and haven't built up a combo stack yet, and without Blood Rush and the ability multiplier it wouldn't be getting any better from there, meaning that it might fall off in usefulness at high levels despite its synergy with Strangledome and Ensnare, and that'd be unfortunate. 

Aside from damage, the gameplay difference if Whipclaw remained a single attack but became an exalted weapon wouldn't be noticeable if you've been using a statstick, but because casting would replace your melee with the Exalted whip and switch back on recast, it would make alternating between normal melee and Whipclaw as you can technically do now impossible. Playing with the Destreza, I appreciate the ability to land a heavier focused attack with my regular melee (and build up some combo faster doing so) followed by an AoE Whipclaw blast. Casting and decasting also might reset your combo stack, which I notice happens with my Wukong but not my Excalibur; I haven't tried using a staff as Wukong's regular melee or a non-sword as Excalibur's, so it might be the same for both and retained only for the same weapon type, but I'd hate to be limited to whips for Khora when she has a signature dual sword set and looks so good with that rapier. 

I do think that with a fully optimized statstick build, Khora is simply dealing too much damage, even when you're not building her for it with a high strength and AW. However, converting Whipclaw as-is into an exalted weapon without any caveats (again, even specifically the kind without ongoing drain that it would naturally be) would nerf it into the pavement.

Other possibilities:

I think my preferred solution right now would be to leave everything as is, but give Whipclaw (and Shattered Lash, and Landslide, and any other pseudo-weapon abilities) a separate build as if it were an Exalted weapon. After all, Garuda's Talons already exist as a definitely-not-Exalted weapon that is nonetheless a piece of equipment with a separate mod layout. I can't make the case for allowing Blood Rush on these but disallowing it on Exalted melee, but that's because there is no argument for disallowing Blood Rush on Exalted melee and that should have been fixed with The Old Blood update. You know, allow it for Whipclaw now, but be open to fixing it for the others later.

Another possibly obvious solution is to make Whipclaw cast and cost like Balefire, but take full advantage of the fact that it is an exalted melee and give it a proper stance and the ability to benefit from attack speed and conditional mods. I still think it'd be painful without Blood Rush, but four attacks is better than one and might make up for the gameplay disadvantage of not being able to chain into regular melee. It'd mean you could have quick, focused melee strikes and the slower AoE, ability-range-modified grenade on the same weapon, and now you'd be able to trade off between speed and damage etc. as you can for regular melee. 

(And of course, any solution means there's somewhere in the arsenal that actually represents the damage output of Whipclaw - although that passive .25x ability damage per combo stack it currently gets wouldn't have anywhere to be represented, so a solution that doesn't kill that still has some Arsenal representation problems.)

Edited by CopperBezel
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1 hour ago, AliceLaFay said:

You don't need to change the functionality of the ability. Just take what is there, but make it a separate mod loadout. This is really simple.

I guess that would work. Generally I don't really bother with making a stat stick, because you just deal enough damage anyway. Maybe that's different with the new heavy attack builds, where you don't use elemental mods.

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You deal plenty of damage without a stat stick build. You can deal obscene levels of damage with one.

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1 minute ago, gluih said:

I guess that would work. Generally I don't really bother with making a stat stick, because you just deal enough damage anyway. Maybe that's different with the new heavy attack builds, where you don't use elemental mods.

I use primed fury and primed reach on a majority of my melees, which makes two dead slots for whipclaw.

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I feel like I'm double posting but I was going to edit to add and then there was more. X ]

Yeah, you can make changes to your melee build that change how it plays but offer roughly the same DPS, and find your Whipclaw dealing wildly more or less damage with no other change. It's basically arbitrary right now unless you're building with Whipclaw in mind. And if you are building with Whipclaw in mind, you run into the statstick problems.

Edited by CopperBezel

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5 hours ago, AliceLaFay said:

False.

Read my above reply.

Making weapons separately level-able and mod-able solved a problem, and that problem exists for whipclaw as well. Fretting over the term "exalted" is missing the point.

You are misunderstanding what an exalted weapon really is. They are weapons SUMMONED by the frame. Garuda's talons are part of the armor, so that is not an exalted weapon.

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Gara also gets damage from her equipped melee on her 1 ability. Still not an exalted weapon though.

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35 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

You are misunderstanding what an exalted weapon really is. They are weapons SUMMONED by the frame. Garuda's talons are part of the armor, so that is not an exalted weapon.

That's a pretty aggressive way to state this particular generalization. = / 

As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, ongoing drain wouldn't be necessary even if it was universal to Exalted weapons, but it also just isn't in fact universal as it stands. The Balefire Charger is considered an Exalted weapon, and it does not have an ongoing drain. 

Also, you don't want to mix mechanics and lore, because it'd be entirely possible to have something that works like an Exalted weapon but doesn't count if Exalted weapons were, indeed, consistently a particular kind of thing - but once again, they aren't actually already. Some are pure energy, some are material but summoned from the ether, and one (Regulators) is visible on the frame at all times.

Edited by CopperBezel
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Folks, please really just read the thread. Or at least the opening post. More than the title is a start.

Being an Exalted weapon isn't a good or bad thing inherently. Having a weapon-moddable attack ability that isn't an Exalted weapon is also not purely beneficial or detrimental, but it is something that just three frames have. For all of them it's an incentive to carry bad melee weapons with worse builds, and for just one, it's a way to pour out incredible amounts of damage with little effort.

Khora does indeed have an Exalted companion, but she also happens to be that one frame you can choose to make broken af by giving her a bad melee. 

Edited by CopperBezel

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11 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Folks, please really just read the thread.

About the companion, that's the balance. That's why she doesn't also have an exalted weapon, however janky. Her companion takes that slot on the arsenal. Don't tell me how to respond.

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Either you're using the word "balance" in a sense that refers to something other than game balance, or you didn't read my last post, either. As for whether it's possible to have multiple exalted slots in the arsenal, Titania exists.

But yes, failing to read before you respond is generally going to lead to being called out for it.

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20 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Either you're using the word "balance" in a sense that refers to something other than game balance, or you didn't read my last post, either. As for whether it's possible to have multiple exalted slots in the arsenal, Titania exists.

But yes, failing to read before you respond is generally going to lead to being called out for it.

Wasn't talking to you. Was talking to OP. It's their thread. I responded to OP's topic. Deal with it.

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You responded to their thread title, and then you responded to me when I pointed out you'd done so, apparently while not reading that post either. In any case, it's just clutter, and you can see how you might have been confused for someone attempting to contribute something.

For anyone else who's not following what's been said, but who has the misapprehension that an exalted weapon is something that needs to be "balanced" against, making Whipclaw an Exalted melee, in any of the many ways it could be done, would be a nerf, not a buff, at least in terms of raw DPS capability. 

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16 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

You responded to their thread title, and then you responded to me when I pointed out you'd done so, apparently while not reading that post either. In any case, it's just clutter, and you can see how you might have been confused for someone attempting to contribute something.

For anyone else who's not following what's been said, but who has the misapprehension that an exalted weapon is something that needs to be "balanced" against, making Whipclaw an Exalted melee, in any of the many ways it could be done, would be a nerf, not a buff, at least in terms of raw DPS capability. 

The whole post

10 hours ago, AliceLaFay said:

So there are some issues with Khora's Whipclaw, It uses mods from your equipped melee weapon, and not all mods even do anything (speed for example, or weapon specific mods). Needless to say this is a nuisance because the goal builds for the weapon and for whipclaw are going to be different in most cases. Since rivens do work, it incentivizes using the weapon strictly as a stat stick, and tailoring the riven to the whipclaw instead of the weapon it's intended for. Also this means that the best in slot melee weapons are going to be those that have a high disposition, and then you have to get a riven for that weapon.

This used to be an issue with many other frames, and it was fixed in one go by making exalted weapons moddable separately.

Can we please make whipclaw an exalted weapon? The current implementation is a bit janky.


I did read it, you absolute doorknob. It requests making whip claw an exalted weapon because it's janky and makes modding weapons awkward. ..but DE can't do it, because she already has an exalted. Full stop. It takes an arsenal slot. Or did you not read my posts? *smarm smarm smarm.* If you don't agree, so be it. Buzz off with your petty high handed attention grab. You could have considered my comment. You could have ignored my comment... but it makes a valid point that is on topic. I could give a damn about your pointless callout.. and for what, because you don't like how it answered the topic? At me next time.

That comment was THE ONLY thing I had to contribute, and it was relevant. Go back to whatever it was your were doing. Consider yourself on administrative leave from the forum police force for being an uppity wanker.

Edited by kapn655321

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Just now, CopperBezel said:

Titania has two exalted weapon slots, as I already noted in the post you responded to.

That's fair, but a unique case. It's also Titania's Ult, a mode that entirely changes her form and channels, meaning Khora would need an entire rework to facilitate it. If you guys are pushing for Khora to be totally retooled from the ground up, so be it, I won't stop ya. Currently it cannot just be swapped out for an exalted without that taking place.. so if Khora's kit is the same, It cannot be done.

I leave you all to it. Best of luck on your rework.

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