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Game Design Dilemma : RNG, grind and sustainability


844448
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Well, this is my view as someone who is an armchair game designer in this problem

we always get the problem about warframe being boring, not having sustainable design, etc etc but at the same time, we refuse things with "too much grind" or "too much RNG" so sometimes I wonder what is the absolute standard or what the community want

First thing first, there are 2 models of progression nowadays : One-and-Done and random drops which I'll put a bit in depth as my understanding goes

1. One-and-Done

This kind of model means you will have a sure progression of what will you get, with no variable or something that makes the next drop can be better than your current. You grind once and that's it, enjoy your fruit of your progress

Pros :

+ This model surely cuts the grind massively, where you don't need to go again because the chance of getting something that might be better than your current and you can enjoy your earned gear on the gameplay

Cons :

- This model doesn't give you anything else other than that item, means the rewards will run out sooner or later, means you will only play for the gameplay instead or rewards, where people that play only for loot/drop/rewards (they're called as loot-whores on a place I read somewhere) will soon lose the motivation to run the mission again

- No "sustainability" unless you play for the fun of running to that place over and over, which not everyone can do

2. RNG (random drops)

This kind of model means the drop you get on the next run might be better than your current gear, making the run possibly rewarding or not with random stats, perks, etc

Pros :

+ This model gives you reason to do that run again and again for the better drop, either in stats, perks or any other aspects

+ This model gives the most sustainability with the least effort, making people run for the best gear

Cons :

- This model gives zero assurance you will get the best drop, making the run to be possibly infinite and getting none of what you want or still not the best

- Your gear can be obsolote in a drop of loot, you get 100% roll with an excellent perk? Too bad, you get that one item with better perk, means your 100% drop will be obsolete because the stats will be objectively better even when it has only 98% roll because of the perks that boost this 98% far beyond your 100% can

Is there any way to make them last long enough? Yes

For one-and-done

a. You can make them to be a long term run such as Hema where you or your clan go together for that item, but that means you will spend a long time to get that one item as "massive grind" by some while the other side sees it as normal, maybe easy and you're just too lazy to do it.

b. You can make new things better than your current, but that means it's a power creep, an unending run for more and more power. This means you must be actively playing on a regular basis or you will be left far behind and possible need to struggle to reach that level alone because you can't find someone at your level, getting beaten and losing many times enought to make you pull your hair in frustration

c. Durability, where things you use will wear out and you need to repair it or find a new one if you ignore it long enough to break beyond repair like what we have in requiem mods

RNG

Really, there's nearly nothing needed for this model, make the range of drops wide enough and you're basically done with "sustainability" for players such as perk combination in a drop having random set of it or the stats on the bonus (Best drop is 1 : 2000+? Why not?). Easy content padding and sustainable content. You want to pad them more? Make them to be wreckage/ruin/scrap/whatever where you need to repair it before using it

That's my view so far in this problem, so far the one-and-done doesn't make people appreciate this model because they finish the content in hours and soon begin chanting the content drought mantra, making DE start shifting to RNG aspects in form of Riven mods, Kuva weapons and Railjack wreckage to make those who like to keep chasing the best of the best and some lunatics that like to sit in a worrying amount of time a day have their fun but at the same time seen as disgusting grind by those who don't like to grind too much for acceptable gear.

So, in the end the choice is either content with one-and-done and you play only for the game play kicking enemies with no other rewards or RNG to keep you running for rewards.

I haven't seen any kind of sustainable content where you only need to run it once, always drop things better than your gears and you can choose the drop quality so send me some if you find it

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37 minutes ago, 844448 said:

we always get the problem about warframe being boring, not having sustainable design, etc etc 

A portion of the community feels that way.

38 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 but at the same time, we refuse things with "too much grind" or "too much RNG" 

A different portion of the community

39 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 so sometimes I wonder what is the absolute standard or what the community want

Different parts of the community want different things , we are not the borg.

40 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 

1. One-and-Done

This kind of model means you will have a sure progression of what will you get, with no variable or something that makes the next drop can be better than your current. You grind once and that's it, enjoy your fruit of your progress

Pros :

+ This model surely cuts the grind massively, where you don't need to go again because the chance of getting something that might be better than your current and you can enjoy your earned gear on the gameplay

Cons :

- This model doesn't give you anything else other than that item, means the rewards will run out sooner or later, means you will only play for the gameplay instead or rewards, where people that play only for loot/drop/rewards (they're called as loot-whores on a place I read somewhere) will soon lose the motivation to run the mission again

- No "sustainability" unless you play for the fun of running to that place over and over, which not everyone can do

 

So classic warframe before riven mods (but after removal of randomised mods in update 5 i think ?

that made many of the players enjoy the game and pushed it's popularity.

43 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 

2. RNG (random drops)

This kind of model means the drop you get on the next run might be better than your current gear, making the run possibly rewarding or not with random stats, perks, etc

Pros :

+ This model gives you reason to do that run again and again for the better drop, either in stats, perks or any other aspects

+ This model gives the most sustainability with the least effort, making people run for the best gear

Cons :

- This model gives zero assurance you will get the best drop, making the run to be possibly infinite and getting none of what you want or still not the best

- Your gear can be obsolote in a drop of loot, you get 100% roll with an excellent perk? Too bad, you get that one item with better perk, means your 100% drop will be obsolete because the stats will be objectively better even when it has only 98% roll because of the perks that boost this 98% far beyond your 100% can

 

The post riven warframe, which introduced multiple layers of RNG.

48 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 

a. You can make them to be a long term run such as Hema where you or your clan go together for that item, but that means you will spend a long time to get that one item as "massive grind" by some while the other side sees it as normal, maybe easy and you're just too lazy to do it.

Needs to be quantifiably acceptable from reward vs effort , and as mentioned different people will have different levels of free time and skill level to acquire it. Labeling people as lazy is unnecessary , they just don't feel the effort worth the reward.

52 minutes ago, 844448 said:

.

b. You can make new things better than your current, but that means it's a power creep, an unending run for more and more power. This means you must be actively playing on a regular basis or you will be left far behind and possible need to struggle to reach that level alone because you can't find someone at your level, getting beaten and losing many times enought to make you pull your hair in frustration

 

Which DE keeps doing resulting in the current game balance discrepancy where bandaids (rivens) made the problem worse. Easily overcome with platinum or just farming for the new stuff , the reason why vets take breaks and come back when updates release.

57 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 

c. Durability, where things you use will wear out and you need to repair it or find a new one if you ignore it long enough to break beyond repair like what we have in requiem mods

 

This exists already in the form of beast companions and certain resources (argon) an acceptable check for replayability in its current state according to me - DE had also showcased a way to improve the railjack stats temporarily and provide umbra passive to other frames for a short period , would have liked that (though the umbra passive itself was a debatable topic ,a temporary buff to warframes would have been interesting ).

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

 

RNG

Really, there's nearly nothing needed for this model, make the range of drops wide enough and you're basically done with "sustainability" for players such as perk combination in a drop having random set of it or the stats on the bonus (Best drop is 1 : 2000+? Why not?). Easy content padding and sustainable content. You want to pad them more? Make them to be wreckage/ruin/scrap/whatever where you need to repair it before using it

Easy for developers to make does not automatically make it fun for players to play ,

as mentioned earlier parts of the community will enjoy it parts will not.

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

)

 

That's my view so far in this problem, so far the one-and-done doesn't make people appreciate this model because they finish the content in hours and soon begin chanting the content drought mantra, making DE start shifting to RNG aspects in form of Riven mods, Kuva weapons and Railjack wreckage to make those who like to keep chasing the best of the best and some lunatics that like to sit in a worrying amount of time a day have their fun but at the same time seen as disgusting grind by those who don't like to grind too much for acceptable gear.

 

Your problem is you assume the community is a single entity ,it's not , it's made of individuals with their own preferences as wide as the current RNG layers and rolls.

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

.

So, in the end the choice is either content with one-and-done and you play only for the game play kicking enemies with no other rewards or RNG to keep you running for rewards.

 

False dichotomy , you simply lack the imagination and willingness to put the effort for it.

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

.

I haven't seen any kind of sustainable content where you only need to run it once, always drop things better than your gears and you can choose the drop quality so send me some if you find it

Ok ,what's your point? Make a wish fullfillment simulator?

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5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

False dichotomy , you simply lack the imagination and willingness to put the effort for it.

I'm still an armchair game designer so I still have lots to learn

5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ok ,what's your point? Make a wish fullfillment simulator?

Need examples to take notes from them if they say they can name games with sustainable content but doesn't involve grind and RNG

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A discussion about "content" that focuses on reward and progression systems is probably starting off in the wrong place and asking the wrong questions.

Some better questions:

  • What is content?
  • What gameplay keeps people coming back?

At least these questions are not so narrow. Answering them may include a discussion of reward and progression, but doesn't restrict the discussion only to those things.

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Daddy, chill. 

its looter-shooter, it use to be RNG, grind.

If the developers will listen to all similar advice about the game, then this game will die as it was with some games before (H1Z1 died because the developers listened too much to the community)
Just let the developers do their job, they will undoubtedly listen to the posts on the forum, experiment and try to find the best content in any case.

P.s: i like this RNG, it can hit me in the balls, or give me luck for no reason. I'm used to it, it’s not a big deal, just a game variety. I don’t want to go back to the times when everyone ran in the same build, the same warframe and the same weapon, the RNG helps to avoid this.

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1 hour ago, Lollipumpsie said:

its looter-shooter, it use to be RNG, grind.

RNG Grind isn't synonymous with loot games. Korean MMORPGs are loot oriented games and are well known for their grind, and yet over the last 5 years the amount of RNG in those games have dropped drastically without really even decreasing grind. Some of the older games have even gone through revamps, or currently are in the process of it, to lower the layers of RNG. You can have a game with very long grind that isn't reliant on multiple layers of RNG, because even without random stats Warframe already had pretty absurd RNG with the 0.1% drop rates of mods.

1 hour ago, Lollipumpsie said:

If the developers will listen to all similar advice about the game, then this game will die as it was with some games before (H1Z1 died because the developers listened too much to the community)
Just let the developers do their job, they will undoubtedly listen to the posts on the forum, experiment and try to find the best content in any case.

League of Legends has been one of the largest games globally for years, guess what Riot does? Listens to its community. One of their lowest seasons play wise was the year they tried not listening. It got to the point one of their developers was receiving death threats. Listening to the community=/=doing everything that is asked. DE has listened, but they have a bad habit of listening to the wrong people all the time, such as listening to people who make money off of fake outrage.

1 hour ago, Lollipumpsie said:

P.s: i like this RNG, it can hit me in the balls, or give me luck for no reason. I'm used to it, it’s not a big deal, just a game variety. I don’t want to go back to the times when everyone ran in the same build, the same warframe and the same weapon, the RNG helps to avoid this.

It isn't game variety, there's clear best in slot parts that most people will use, the amount of care anyone should have when two people both have the same engine but with a 0.1 difference in boost should be zero. Just like with Warframes, the variance between two railjacks should come down to weapon and avionic choices, not the minor stat differences between the same parts.

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This is literally like asking for the meaning of life. If there was a clear-cut, unambiguously RIGHT answer to this dilemma, we all wouldn't be here right now.

The truth is, all the examples people cite when going "that one game did this thing better than Warframe!" have their own share of issues, and you know why? Because all systems have issues. Half the job of a game designer (source: I am one, an actual one, not an armchair one) is to decide which compromises to make, which issues to have for the sake of not having even worse ones. 

Which, by the way, is why listening to (most of) the fanbase is generally a bad idea. It is a fact that there are A LOT of people on the internet (you can see many examples n this very forum) who:

1) Think they know better

2) Are not willing to compromise their ideas

3) Are not willing to provide data and arguments to support their statements

4) Are basing their views on what they personally like

5) Have ulterior motives ("make money off of fake outrage", as others have rightfully said) and so will never be satisfied anyway

If there are 100 people who have one or more of the aboe traits, then creating a product that pleases all 100 of them is absolutely impossibe, it's just not doable. That's why topics like this are never going to accomplish anything: because an objective answer to this question does not exist, and subjective answers are based on subjective criteria, so of course they're not going to please everyone. There are always going to be the folks who praise and defend the game no matter what, those who bash and insult it no matter what, and all the shades in-between.

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This is the issue if you design your game solely around extrinsic rewards to maximize playtime/addiction. If the game isn't fulfilling to play even without loot, then you end up with players not playing. There's two major philosophies to address this issue. You either expand on the loot aspect to a point where players have to play a virtually indefinite amount of time to achieve the best rewards(this is what DE seems to be currently doing), or you work on introducing mechanics to the game that dont rely on long term loot grind, provide an ever resetting progression, but are still fun to engage in. The former is obviously way easier to do, but the second method is actually sustainable and allows the dev to keep players playing without having to worry as much about pumping out the next shiny for them to grab. The downsides of former method we're all too famliar with at this point. Layers upon layers of RNG causing burnout and eventual abandonment of the content. The big drawback of the second method is that it costs a lot of dev time without a direct RoI to justify it, so even if it'd improve the game for players significantly there isn't a big set of rewards attached to point towards as motivation to make sure players keep grinding.

What I'm talking about here is PvE endgame that doesn't rely on something like rare loot in exclusively high level content. People used to play games like older GTA titles for years, which dont have any kind of progression systems attached to them outside of ranked PvP. People kept playing games like C&C or sim city, alone or coop, without getting unlocks or seeing some artificial number go up after every gaming session. There are ways to make players play PvE games without a carrot - it just isn't inherently as profitable or easy as throwing out a new piece of gear at a 0.01% drop chance. It's a hell of a lot more fun tho.

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4 hours ago, schilds said:

A discussion about "content" that focuses on reward and progression systems is probably starting off in the wrong place and asking the wrong questions.

Some better questions:

  • What is content?
  • What gameplay keeps people coming back?

At least these questions are not so narrow. Answering them may include a discussion of reward and progression, but doesn't restrict the discussion only to those things.

GGG (Grinding Gear Games) have a pretty good talk about this on Youtube where they talk about their development cycle (from League to League) and how they have set up their game and buisness model.

If anyone's interested, it's a bit long but worthwhile:

 

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21 hours ago, ZeroMR said:

a2. Or you place an item behind genuinely difficult mission (almost impossible with current desing) or tie it to other factors, like completition speed.
b2. Or new itmes are just sidegrades (also not possible with current design). Best example would be a variation of already existing corrupted mods, like Heavy Calliber, but each version comes with another curse and those mods are not stackable. Yes, this would also affect Serration or Rivens and make them non-stackable. Now, imagine how many new usefull mods you could create with this system.
You c) is just a sidegrind and not a sollution.

a2. The one way to make difficult mission in warframe is that no mod mode like in Grendel mission, but not a good thing to do and from what I see, difficult things is more often than not increasing the health, armor, damage and resistance of enemies

b2. Sort of hard to do considering sidegrades sometimes get dismissed as mastery fodder like that one time on Opticor Vandal because it has lower damage for higher fire rate. Non-stackable mods? I did have that idea for riven

c. I'm not sure about that considering argon crystal decaying is not really a good idea

21 hours ago, ZeroMR said:

"One and Done" approach is usually countebalanced by game difficulty. If a game has no dffculty, it cannot create longitivity with such designes. Plain and simple.
Strategy shift to RNG stats is a desperate attempt to cover up horrible dasign decisions, procrastination, inaction or even inability. DE:"Why should we spend time on anything, when we can just roll out one mission 25 times and fill it with RNG loot?".

Our power is insane. If DE ever gets any crossover content from any game from WoW to whatever game, how many boss/raid boss that can survive a shot from chroma with sniper? Also apparently nerf is a taboo word by some

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1 minute ago, --C--Nehra said:

Lol, is it? Last I checked, Rahe was still crying about Vauban boost pad still being present despite tons of feedback asking it to be changed. Our power is miniscule. 

Our powers are insane actually, in different flavors of game play. Chroma is the brute force warframe with vex armor while I'm wiping level 120 enemies using Vauban using the bastille armor strip, damage boost minelayer and 25% damage bonus on incapacitated enemies as passive so they're pretty soft even for vauban, or Nyx with 100% defense strip with psychic bolt combined with chaos to make enemies kill each other.

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2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Our powers are insane actually, in different flavors of game play. Chroma is the brute force warframe with vex armor while I'm wiping level 120 enemies using Vauban using the bastille armor strip, damage boost minelayer and 25% damage bonus on incapacitated enemies as passive so they're pretty soft even for vauban, or Nyx with 100% defense strip with psychic bolt combined with chaos to make enemies kill each other.

Hmm, well there is that. But if enough people cry at Reddit for a nerf to those things, it can all be gone, so I won't be too sure about that. Still, it's very unlikely that it will happen. 

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There is a third way, at least in principle, but it won't work in Warframe.

Alts/rerolls/new game+. When done well, it genuinely makes a game almost infinitely fresh and interesting, done badly it's just another source of grind... I saw maybe 2 multiplayer games where it was done well though.

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21 hours ago, TamePingu said:

GGG (Grinding Gear Games) have a pretty good talk about this on Youtube where they talk about their development cycle (from League to League) and how they have set up their game and buisness model.

If anyone's interested, it's a bit long but worthwhile:

 

So, regular ladder re-sets (variant of alting/NG+), big quarterly releases on a rigid schedule, and (in the Q&A towards the end) not double-dipping by setting up a clear hierarchy of items in addition to the RNG, it's one or the other (Yes, Empyrean houses, yes, I think they're the biggest mistake DE did with Railjack) and not setting up the expectation that you'd necessarily get the toppest of the top rolls (I honestly never played PoE and don't know how it works there, but if they indeed managed that and if what he said about how few such items actually is there in the game is accurate... I'm intrigued. It should be a masterpiece of item balancing.)

 

A good advice, but I'm nor sure how much of it is directly applicable to WF (although Nightwave can evolve into something very close to the kind of thing PoE leagues seem to be going by this vid.)

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17 minutes ago, nebfab said:

A good advice, but I'm nor sure how much of it is directly applicable to WF (although Nightwave can evolve into something very close to the kind of thing PoE leagues seem to be going by this vid.)

I believe you can adapt almost any principle from one game to another. I've been talking about exactly that to solidify the game's meta gameplay loop for years(there is no loop at the moment, since it's all just liear gear/cosmetic) progression.

Spoiler

 

I've refined the concept over time a lot but the basics are still the same. Without gear or cosmetics, Warframe doesn't have a gameplay progression loop, and that is what needs to change. That is what endgame should be about, because that's what it is in any other game without endless treadmills.

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1 minute ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

I believe you can adapt almost any principle from one game to another. I've been talking about exactly that to solidify the game's meta gameplay loop for years(there is no loop at the moment, since it's all just liear gear/cosmetic) progression.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I've refined the concept over time a lot but the basics are still the same. Without gear or cosmetics, Warframe doesn't have a gameplay progression loop, and that is what needs to change. That is what endgame should be about, because that's what it is in any other game without endless treadmills.

You can, but again, notice how he said they had to "train" the player base to accept the league cycle and its implications. I played another MMO where, although there was no regular resets, you were kinda expected to have a ton of alts, and both the game structure and the community around it evolved to support that in various big and small ways.

 

WF had been evolving for years in the exact opposite direction, and the momentum you would need to overcome to introduce something like that would be enormous. A game mode where you suddenly have reduced access* to all the cool stuff you spend days grinding/paid plat for and need to start over would be a very hard sell. (Although, I admit, I kinda wish it was structured to encourage that.)

 

*Just how much sharing between different alts/incarnations/etc is there is important for getting it right.

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1 hour ago, nebfab said:

You can, but again, notice how he said they had to "train" the player base to accept the league cycle and its implications.

Well, I'm not in favor of leagues for warframe, primarily because a complete reset of stats isn't required for a persistent and ever changing endgame loop to exist. Plus, giving players agency in the world state(way more than invasions currently allow for) isn't very dependent on keeping a balance between power levels. Sure you'd make more progress with a more powerful build versus a newbie, but since there tend to be more people without really powerful gear setups on average there's always a bit of a balance. Even if there isn't, it matters little since the game director AI could counterbalance world states so you dont end up with something like players supporting one faction to the point where they can take over an opposing faction's planet for long periods of time. That actually happened way back when invasions were first introduced, and while it was really damn cool to see feel like players actually affecting something in the game, it also prevented the ability of some players to farm certain units for resources. That's not a problem if such a system would be introduced.

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30 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Well, I'm not in favor of leagues for warframe, primarily because a complete reset of stats isn't required for a persistent and ever changing endgame loop to exist. Plus, giving players agency in the world state(way more than invasions currently allow for) isn't very dependent on keeping a balance between power levels. Sure you'd make more progress with a more powerful build versus a newbie, but since there tend to be more people without really powerful gear setups on average there's always a bit of a balance. Even if there isn't, it matters little since the game director AI could counterbalance world states so you dont end up with something like players supporting one faction to the point where they can take over an opposing faction's planet for long periods of time. That actually happened way back when invasions were first introduced, and while it was really damn cool to see feel like players actually affecting something in the game, it also prevented the ability of some players to farm certain units for resources. That's not a problem if such a system would be introduced.

The thing is, what character-level resets/rerolls do in such systems isn't really balance, at least not if we're talking about the relationship between the grind and fun. It's the ability to experience the same content from a new angle. (Again, there's a line in that video about GGG trying to make sure the same build isn't meta in two different leagues, because then hardcore players would get bored.)

In the context of Warframe, imagine an experienced player starting on a brand new account. They won't have the sheer power of their original account's stash of goodies, but they'll still move much better, know where to get good stuff fast, know the layout of things like spy vaults... In the games with more of a class-based gameplay you're also either the same class (and already know more about it than you did the first time, gaining you a bit more of that "I'm smarter now" satisfaction) or a different class (and are learning new things.)

Even if you starting an alt that shares bank space with other alts (as opposed to full new game reroll) there still may be quite a lot of it, if, say, there are minimum gear levels. 

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16 minutes ago, nebfab said:

The thing is, what character-level resets/rerolls do in such systems isn't really balance, at least not if we're talking about the relationship between the grind and fun. It's the ability to experience the same content from a new angle. (Again, there's a line in that video about GGG trying to make sure the same build isn't meta in two different leagues, because then hardcore players would get bored.)

I did try games with season based resets and I have to say I dont enjoy the way repackage the same content. It's gives me the same feeling warframe has given me for the... well a long time, as in knowing full well that regardless of how fast, lucky or skilled you are, in the end there'll always be a reset and you have to start over .In warframe that usually happens when new, overpowered gear is released that takes a newly introduced resource, or more, in case of PoE/Vallis/Railjack. That isn't fun as I define it. Grinding for grinds sake isn't fun - that's what I'm arguing here.

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On 2020-01-16 at 8:56 AM, TamePingu said:

GGG (Grinding Gear Games) have a pretty good talk about this on Youtube where they talk about their development cycle (from League to League) and how they have set up their game and buisness model.

If anyone's interested, it's a bit long but worthwhile:

This was the video that got me to try POE. I played for 2 leagues, it was 1 too many...

I don't think GGG's design philosophy translates well to other games...the league structure definitely hampers creativity. Churn out assets you currently have no use for, you might shoe-horn them into the game with palette swaps later. Don't have day-night cycles, you can change lighting and pretend it's a new map, etc.

Also POE's console ports are utter drek, constant crashes, poor frame rate, worst UI I've ever experienced, etc. GGG should hang their heads in shame and I want my $20 I spent on stash tabs back!

My idea of sustainable is something like Monster Hunter that I've been playing since PS1...the core game play is just very satisfying. The time between Warframe updates is when I get to enjoy other games...then come back next update reinvigorated. I don't want to play only one game and I resent systems designed to entice the player to come back daily/weekly like the login milestones or nightwave even though I understand the appeal to DE who isn't a charity or my friend, they are a business.

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Warframe needs better token systems so that players are continually working towards a goal, not relying purely on RNG. Ducats are a great example of this as players have to farm missions to aquire specific relics. Then they need to farm fissures to open those relics and collect prime parts which can then be traded for ducats and used to purchase items. The gameplay loop is fantastic, unfortunately the recent rewards that are purchasable with ducats have been pretty lackluster.

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23 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Warframe needs better token systems so that players are continually working towards a goal, not relying purely on RNG.

Agreed. If you are going to have punishing RNG in a game, you should have a way to offset horrible luck with a linear progression system to either improve your rolls or improve your item to a "perfect" roll.

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Ducats are a great example of this as players have to farm missions to aquire specific relics.

Ducats were actually designed for us to melt our spare prime parts at a huge net loss overall. We pay a lot of ducats (time) for the pittance that Baro typically brings. Where's my Primed Chamber damnit?!

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

The gameplay loop is fantastic

Agreed, up until Liches. Liches are an isolated gameplay loop that tell you what reward you're getting, and once you've played it a little bit, its usually not a reward. It's a grind for 2-3 hours to get rid of the lich that has nothing of value. It's a slog to grind something for hours knowing the only thing you are earning is another chance to roll. Anyways, you can tell im salty about liches.

Edited by Skaleek
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