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Area_Of_Effect
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Just throwing the idea out there. Self-Damage should be removed almost entirely. Most of the weapons that have it don't even have damage numbers worth One-Shotting ourselves over. I know some of you will say, "but there's Cautious Shot," no... giving up a mod slot means trading damage or crit or status ect, just so you can maybe survive. That doesn't really make sense. Take the Staticor for example. Remember when an attempt was made to add self-damage to that? Everyone lost their minds. That should be the same energy across the board. Removing Self-Damage isn't going to make us more OP. All that will change is we won't have to bullet jump for every shot or die when a team mate walks in front of us. Taking away self-damage from the Staticor didn't break the game.

Now.. to address the builds/frames/players that don't necessarily need Self-Damage, but prefer to have the option:

You ever play other games like Dark Souls. Certain weapons have mechanics that injure yourself so you can get your health down below 30% to activate damage or other buffs. Stuff like the Chaos Blade does self-damage without worry of killing yourself in a single hit. This is the only form of self-damage Warframe should have. The current system isn't worth the trouble. I feel like this would be an easy fix. Just to deactivate it across the board but leaving it on very few weapons and giving those Set Self-Damage Amounts that are not affected by mods. 

Last thing, Please Read DE:

Removing self-damage is Not an excuse to nerf the weapons in question. I felt like that had to be said. In fact, some of those weapons probably would benefit from buffs to their aoe range and to their damage. 

P.S.

  • Spear guns have a glitch where you can't launch them from an aim-glide or a wall-latch after consecutive throws (sometimes happens at random). They auto-launch after you land/let go of the wall into the direction you are currently facing. Usually results in death if you're using the Javlok. 
  • Thrown spear-guns tend to disappear if they hit a friendly target, and rarely, when passing through an enemy's head. They're gone, usually, for the duration of their charge. 
  • If you are not the host, the holstered reload mechanic of the Ferrox does not work. Similar to the ongoing issue where Life Strike does not work on the Skiajati unless you are the host. There is also a similar issue with the Javlok under similar conditions. 
  • Ferrox is not affected by Firestorm mod. 
  • Lenz blast sometimes occurring at the XYZ axis point of impact instead of at where ever the arrow is attached. Happens when the enemy is very mobile, such as the Dargyn.
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39 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Self damage makes it so explosive weapons aren't crazily overpowered compared to regular guns, if there was no risk of blowing myself up with Angstrum it would be one of my favorite side arms. As it is I have to use it carefully when I want to make stuff go boom. 🙃

 

35 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Yes, it is. The option is either nerf the hell out of them or remove them entirely if self-damage goes away.

Alright, I'll play along. 
There are other ways to go about this without being splattered across a wall or making the weapon impotent. Smaller of ammo magazine for instance. The Lenz does it. Decrease in reload speed, expending an entire clip with alt-fire, limited range, auto-detonation timers, ect ect. Even without these, by your logic, certain warframes should have self damage introduced. Certain nuke frames aren't being disproportionally used because they can kill the entire map. People still prefer to use frames that fit their playstyle and feel the most fun. They will do the same with weapons.

Even if self-damage was an absolute necessity, the way Warframe goes about it is illogical. Especially with knowing all the gripes that stem from the current system like projectiles exploding on your teammates, subsequently killing you in the process. Other games have penalty mechanics for strong weapons, but those other games don't let those mechanics kill you in a single shot. 

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41 minutes ago, Area_Of_Effect said:

 

Alright, I'll play along. 
There are other ways to go about this without being splattered across a wall or making the weapon impotent. Smaller of ammo magazine for instance. The Lenz does it. Decrease in reload speed, expending an entire clip with alt-fire, limited range, auto-detonation timers, ect ect. Even without these, by your logic, certain warframes should have self damage introduced. Certain nuke frames aren't being disproportionally used because they can kill the entire map. People still prefer to use frames that fit their playstyle and feel the most fun. They will do the same with weapons.

Even if self-damage was an absolute necessity, the way Warframe goes about it is illogical. Especially with knowing all the gripes that stem from the current system like projectiles exploding on your teammates, subsequently killing you in the process. Other games have penalty mechanics for strong weapons, but those other games don't let those mechanics kill you in a single shot. 

There's also a lot of tight close quarters maps in this game that don't benefit using explosive weapons as enemies can close distance and make your explosive damage non viable since you'll frag yourself all too often. To your proposal I'd say bigger maps would be a good middle ground instead of changing the weapons themselves, give us actual opportunities to bring explosive weapons to bear instead of being stuck in situations where we're just as likely to blow ourselves up as the enemy. 

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5 hours ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

There's also a lot of tight close quarters maps in this game that don't benefit using explosive weapons as enemies can close distance and make your explosive damage non viable since you'll frag yourself all too often. To your proposal I'd say bigger maps would be a good middle ground instead of changing the weapons themselves, give us actual opportunities to bring explosive weapons to bear instead of being stuck in situations where we're just as likely to blow ourselves up as the enemy. 

Bigger maps sounds like a lot more work for them.. seems easier to do a minor change to the weapons than a tileset rework. I welcome a revamped tileset, but.. maybe later.

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8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Yes, it is. The option is either nerf the hell out of them or remove them entirely if self-damage goes away.

It's completely arbitrary which weapons get self-damage and to what degree. Like, compare the Kuva Tonkor and Ogris, where the Tonkor's self-damage is notionally possible (similar to the Acceltra, where you have to really work at it to catch up with an explosion) and the Ogris's is the biggest threat to your survival in any mission you choose to take it into, and they're otherwise pretty similar guns except for the Tonkor having decent crit. There would have to be some form of balance across weapons for this to make sense, and that's just not the case. Meanwhile there are explosive weapons like the Staticor that don't have self-damage and wave projectiles like the Catchmoon and Fulmin that do the same job without raising the question. 

If DE started adding self-damage to every weapon that would otherwise be OP, you'd see real complaints on self-damage. As it is, it's just a dumb and arbitrary mechanic that ruins a few mediocre weapons and no one cares. Woo, can't believe I'm missing out on that ... Lenz. 

Since self-damage is not in fact "damage" with a fully modded weapon but "instant death", it really ought to be treated as a binary state or condition. When it was introduced, it was probably possible for most frames to easily survive a single hit from their own weapons, so what we're seeing wasn't the intended effect, but it's been preserved as-is because someone thinks the instant kill is a good idea. Personally, to make it a punishment dependent on the actual level of content, not the mods on the gun, I'd rather see it replaced with knockdown, which would open you up to a beating that could indeed be lethal in high level content or an already bad situation. Other, suitable status effects for particular weapons could be neat, too, like a magnetic proc. When it's triggered by an ally suddenly crossing your path, it's still a punishment for using the gun, not a punishment for anything to do with play, but it'd at least be a part of play and not an interruption.

I really get the sense that it's kept around for the five people who feel it makes them special for using guns that kill them sometimes. It's definitely not for balance, because again, it'd be on some good guns in that case. 

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12 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Yes, it is. The option is either nerf the hell out of them or remove them entirely if self-damage goes away.

Why?  Self-damage weapons are generally not any more effective at wiping out groups of enemies than a decently built Opticor or Ignis Wraith, to say nothing of what a heavy spam Fragor Prime is capable of.

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I actually like self damage.  Keeps me on my toes and gives a sense of power behind those weapons.  If its enough to kill me.  Its enough to kill the enemies mentality. 

I look at weapons like the Lenz.  If we removed self damage it would trivialize content.  

I could easily sit at a defense target and hit the ground making a dome similar in size to Mags Bubble or Frosts snow globe.  If I am playing a tanky frame I could in fact have enemies swarm me.  Infested especially and just blow everything up.   Really the only one who should be doing that type of tactic is an Assimilate Nyx.  

Sancti Castanas, Tonkor (Hate the Damn thing) Lenz, Cyanex (To some degree.  I mean it does in fact poison you or dole out status effects on you.  But it is my favorite gun.)

These all do their thing and do it well.  But you need to be precise and know When to use them.  

Example:  I'll run with the Lenz but even though it is my Primary.  I use my secondary weapon (Zakti, Cyanex, Sancti Castanas, Tysis and often Fusilai) as my main method of attack other than melee.

Lenz is for room clearing.  And I need to stay out of that room.  It makes sense.

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I'm getting tired of all this:" I do a mistake. DE has to fix it!"...

I have one big question for the "remove self-damage" group. What is an explosion for you?

For me is an explosion a mix out of soundcolors and destruction. And I'm probably not the only one who will miss the destruction part, if I shoot with a Loki on a floor and everything around dies, except me. (Or did Loki just eat to many bones?)

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It already doesn't affect other players, allies, or pets, and doesn't deal remotely the kind of damage to heavy enemies that it does to you. What destruction exactly are you missing here?

But yeah, this attitude that "I don't always kill myself, so I'm good, you must be bad, that makes me better, self damage is good" is very much why I can't take these defenses seriously. What folks are trying to tell you is that it's a bad mechanic and bad design. On weapons we don't even use or care about.

4 hours ago, Hexsing said:

I look at weapons like the Lenz.  If we removed self damage it would trivialize content.  

Would it, though? It deals a lot of damage when it eventually gets around to it, but the fire rate means it's terrible at status and a lot of armored enemies can still walk right through. The AoE size is matched only by the Staticor and the damage of an individual shot is, eventually, higher, but it's got quite a lot of disadvantages built in already and I don't personally picture myself suddenly using it because I don't have to stand across the room from the things I'm shooting. 

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4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

It already doesn't affect other players, allies, or pets, and doesn't deal remotely the kind of damage to heavy enemies that it does to you. What destruction exactly are you missing here?

But yeah, this attitude that "I don't always kill myself, so I'm good, you must be bad, that makes me better, self damage is good" is very much why I can't take these defenses seriously. What folks are trying to tell you is that it's a bad mechanic and bad design. On weapons we don't even use or care about.

Would it, though? It deals a lot of damage when it eventually gets around to it, but the fire rate means it's terrible at status and a lot of armored enemies can still walk right through. The AoE size is matched only by the Staticor and the damage of an individual shot is, eventually, higher, but it's got quite a lot of disadvantages built in already and I don't personally picture myself suddenly using it because I don't have to stand across the room from the things I'm shooting. 

If they removed self damage entirely what's to stop me from only loading explosive weapons and running into masses without thinking? If you pull self damage off then explosive weapons will be at an extreme advantage because they do deal more damage on average and are only limited because of enemy resistance at some levels. If I could use Angstrum for most missions I would, but more often than not I end up just as dead as my enemy. 

15 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

 

If DE started adding self-damage to every weapon that would otherwise be OP, you'd see real complaints on self-damage. As it is, it's just a dumb and arbitrary mechanic that ruins a few mediocre weapons and no one cares. Woo, can't believe I'm missing out on that ... Lenz. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fludax18ZLA

 

Lenz is a meme which is why I kept mine, just have to use it rather carefully. 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

It already doesn't affect other players, allies, or pets,

Let's see it as an safety mechanic against trolling. ^^

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

and doesn't deal remotely the kind of damage to heavy enemies that it does to you.

That depends on the enemy level. But you are still right. The damage fall off against highr lv. enemies is to high. But that's a problem of the exponential armor reduction.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

What destruction exactly are you missing here?

All the ones. I miss the times, were I accidentally killed my teammates in the halo 2 storymode and I know I was now f### up.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

But yeah, this attitude that "I don't always kill myself, so I'm good, you must be bad, that makes me better, self damage is good" is very much why I can't take these defenses seriously. What folks are trying to tell you is that it's a bad mechanic and bad design. On weapons we don't even use or care about.

How should I think about your arguments? I kill myself rarely, because of mods like enemy radar, where I am able to see, where I have to shoot. Reading someone next steps in the game shouldn't be a problem, I'f you ever drived a car.

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Like a few others in this thread, i also consider self damage an acceptable, and often necessary tradeoff for AoE. I don't think the fact that some powerful AoE weapons with no self damage are already available is a valid argument in favour of it's complete removal. In contrary, i'd rather give self damage to something like the shedu, or staticor for example. My reasoning is that, if all AoE weapons could be used at their full potential with no significant drawback... then assault rifles and precision weapons would be even more left behind than they are now. And i don't see how these could be made attractive enough to catch up, especially in a horde shooter.

As a more personal note, i'd also say that if i don't need to be cautious, to position strategically or in general be aware of anything, i quickly get bored. Click carelessy, and everything dies? Sorry not much interested. Just my opinion!

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On 2020-01-17 at 3:08 AM, CopperBezel said:

It's completely arbitrary which weapons get self-damage and to what degree. Like, compare the Kuva Tonkor and Ogris, where the Tonkor's self-damage is notionally possible (similar to the Acceltra, where you have to really work at it to catch up with an explosion) and the Ogris's is the biggest threat to your survival in any mission you choose to take it into, and they're otherwise pretty similar guns except for the Tonkor having decent crit. There would have to be some form of balance across weapons for this to make sense, and that's just not the case. Meanwhile there are explosive weapons like the Staticor that don't have self-damage and wave projectiles like the Catchmoon and Fulmin that do the same job without raising the question. 

If DE started adding self-damage to every weapon that would otherwise be OP, you'd see real complaints on self-damage. As it is, it's just a dumb and arbitrary mechanic that ruins a few mediocre weapons and no one cares. Woo, can't believe I'm missing out on that ... Lenz. 

Since self-damage is not in fact "damage" with a fully modded weapon but "instant death", it really ought to be treated as a binary state or condition. When it was introduced, it was probably possible for most frames to easily survive a single hit from their own weapons, so what we're seeing wasn't the intended effect, but it's been preserved as-is because someone thinks the instant kill is a good idea. Personally, to make it a punishment dependent on the actual level of content, not the mods on the gun, I'd rather see it replaced with knockdown, which would open you up to a beating that could indeed be lethal in high level content or an already bad situation. Other, suitable status effects for particular weapons could be neat, too, like a magnetic proc. When it's triggered by an ally suddenly crossing your path, it's still a punishment for using the gun, not a punishment for anything to do with play, but it'd at least be a part of play and not an interruption.

I really get the sense that it's kept around for the five people who feel it makes them special for using guns that kill them sometimes. It's definitely not for balance, because again, it'd be on some good guns in that case. 

This... Was perfect. This whole post is yours now. It's exactly damn right. Loved your knockdown and Proc idea also. 

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Self damage as implemented currently implemented by DE is idiotic:

- Enemies are totally exempt from this

- Allies trigger it

DE implemented this penalty in a way that violates the game own rules so that an ally, that normally doesn't get damaged by friendly fire, can kill you with his idiocy/trolling, and that enemies can abuse grenade launcers by shooting while in melee range, without consequence.

Also:

- launcher grenades i.e. Tonkor & Penta projectiles, have insane elasticity, bouncing around like crazy in an utterly nonsensical way.

  Both type of grenade can bounce back at an impossible angle and oneshot most frames just with their "unarmed" shell, it makes no sense that the delivery shell is actually able to do damage, nor that it can bounce around like those old rubber bouncing balls...

- all delayed detonation ammunition is de facto invisible once on the ground, resulting in instant kills both from our own ammunition and the enemy's

- self damage is utterly disproportionate to actual damage the same weapon inflicts on enemies (usually with lacluster results)

- most delayed detonation ammunition suffers from eccessive delay and the lack of contat detonation - we get downed by enemies we shot with any form of "stiky" grenade because they actually get the time to run and "hug us" to our guaranteed demise. If a penta grenade bouncing back can handily terminate my own frame, i'd at least like for it to bowl over it actual intended target long enough to obliterate it in place

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

- Enemies are totally exempt from this

I'm sorry could you please explain it a bit better? Are you talking about the damage, or that grenades from penta doesn't explode, if the hit an enemy?

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

- Allies trigger it

DE implemented this penalty in a way that violates the game own rules so that an ally, that normally doesn't get damaged by friendly fire, can kill you with his idiocy/trolling, and that enemies can abuse grenade launcers by shooting while in melee range, without consequence.

There is a little map, which shows where the alias are. And as long as there are aren't any lags it shouldn't be a problem to read someone's movement.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

- launcher grenades i.e. Tonkor & Penta projectiles, have insane elasticity, bouncing around like crazy in an utterly nonsensical way.

I don't use the penta, but I'm sure that at least the tonkor doesn't have a problem like this.

But the last time I used my tonkor is two months ago. Maybe the changed it in the time.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

- all delayed detonation ammunition is de facto invisible once on the ground, resulting in instant kills both from our own ammunition and the enemy's

I agree with you.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

- self damage is utterly disproportionate to actual damage the same weapon inflicts on enemies (usually with lacluster results)

That's because of the armor scaling.The most weapon gets useless after lv. 100 if they can't be build to shred the enemy armor, or use a viral-slash combi.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

- most delayed detonation ammunition suffers from eccessive delay and the lack of contat detonation - we get downed by enemies we shot with any form of "stiky" grenade because they actually get the time to run and "hug us" to our guaranteed demise.

I don't have problem with the delay. But I wouldn't say anything if the delay gets removed, because it would just allow me to kill faster.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ikusias:

If a penta grenade bouncing back can handily terminate my own frame, i'd at least like for it to bowl over it actual intended target long enough to obliterate it in place

That sounds for me more like a mistake and not bad game design. I mean you could just let the grenade explode, if the enemy is in the explosion range.^^

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On 2020-01-16 at 10:22 PM, Area_Of_Effect said:

Self-Damage should be removed almost entirely

No, it just shouldn't be random death.

Having AoE punish mistakes is fine, it's a desirable mechanic and a good way to balance the AoE so that you don't get an AoE is always better meta.

Warframe's problem is that the damage scaling means all self damage is fatal.

Just look at what almost every other game does - you should lose most, but never all of your max health. If you have shields they should gate it (ie absorb all the blast but be depleted).

The weird friendly fire thing needs to go, you should never die because a teammate's pet passed in front of you just after you started charging.

Hits against the level geometry should be more forgiving, mainly because so much of it is slightly off. You shouldn't die just because you tried to fire the Angstrum uphill and forgot that the game considers that an immediate wall collision.

 

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On 2020-01-17 at 12:37 AM, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Self damage makes it so explosive weapons aren't crazily overpowered compared to regular guns, if there was no risk of blowing myself up with Angstrum it would be one of my favorite side arms. As it is I have to use it carefully when I want to make stuff go boom. 🙃

 

On 2020-01-17 at 12:40 AM, peterc3 said:

Yes, it is. The option is either nerf the hell out of them or remove them entirely if self-damage goes away.

Your comments would have merit if the weapons in question question would've been some of the strongest available, but we're talking about pretty average weapons at best. Not to mention something like the Lenz, which already got a pretty bad downside in it's ammo economy

 

On 2020-01-17 at 4:06 PM, ES-Flinter said:

I'm getting tired of all this:" I do a mistake. DE has to fix it!"...

I have one big question for the "remove self-damage" group. What is an explosion for you?

For me is an explosion a mix out of soundcolors and destruction. And I'm probably not the only one who will miss the destruction part, if I shoot with a Loki on a floor and everything around dies, except me. (Or did Loki just eat to many bones?)

Well that's a good point you've got there and I totally agree with it. While I don't agree with removing Self damage entirely precisely for that reason, I do believe it has to be majorly nerfed. Kinda like cautious shot does, but innately (Without giving up a mod slot) and actually effectively

As it stands self damage from your own weapon means a sure death, and while yes, Self damaage should lethal, it should only be lethal sometimes with the right balance, not 100% of the times. 
Currently these weapons just aren't usable unless you're running them on an A.I  (WuClone, Duality Equinox etc) and that's just stupid to make a certain category of weapons completely useless

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As OP basically mentions:

1. Make self-damage / friendly fire (from Rad procs) base damage only. Perhaps a % of base damage if needed (one could argue the Lenz should deal 50% base damage as self-damage instead, because it's decently balanced otherwise) - but those would be very rare exceptions that could be an excuse to use Cautious Shot instead.

2. Ensure self-damage things have sufficient warning surrounding them. Lenz is a perfect example of how to do it. Zhuge Prime a perfect example of how not to do it (the arrows impact and practically disappear in terrain or on an enemy, which can move the delayed explosion to who-knows-where). It doesn't need to be spectacular like the Lenz: glowing lights on projectiles will do the trick 96% of the time.

Other things like "exploding on teammates" may still be an issue (mechanical inconsistency with hitscans e.g.), but at that point, would be much less of an issue and we'd be able to play around it until it was updated properly.

That allows for Chroma players to maintain their self-damage capabilities without mod scaling turning the "be careful" caveat around self-damage weapons into "don't use it" territory.

It isn't like it's not possible for self-damage to have different values. The Propa Scaffold deals self-damage - of about 3-5, give or take. It's damage value against enemies is 9,000.

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On 2020-01-19 at 9:52 AM, Tyreaus said:

As OP basically mentions:

1. Make self-damage / friendly fire (from Rad procs) base damage only. Perhaps a % of base damage if needed (one could argue the Lenz should deal 50% base damage as self-damage instead, because it's decently balanced otherwise) - but those would be very rare exceptions that could be an excuse to use Cautious Shot instead.

2. Ensure self-damage things have sufficient warning surrounding them. Lenz is a perfect example of how to do it. Zhuge Prime a perfect example of how not to do it (the arrows impact and practically disappear in terrain or on an enemy, which can move the delayed explosion to who-knows-where). It doesn't need to be spectacular like the Lenz: glowing lights on projectiles will do the trick 96% of the time.

Other things like "exploding on teammates" may still be an issue (mechanical inconsistency with hitscans e.g.), but at that point, would be much less of an issue and we'd be able to play around it until it was updated properly.

That allows for Chroma players to maintain their self-damage capabilities without mod scaling turning the "be careful" caveat around self-damage weapons into "don't use it" territory.

It isn't like it's not possible for self-damage to have different values. The Propa Scaffold deals self-damage - of about 3-5, give or take. It's damage value against enemies is 9,000.

I do appreciate some weapons having an arming distance, with Acceltra and Akarius the rockets have to fly a certain distance and will then explode. Less claustrophobic maps will make explosive weapons more usable too. 

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25 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Less claustrophobic maps will make explosive weapons more usable too. 

True. The drawback is that they take more time to build than a switch to friendly fire calculations, if we're talking which change to do first. Note that more open tiles are likely to be a thing in the future regardless of friendly fire, as I believe DE is keeping that trend with the rework to the Corpus Ship tilesets.

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1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

True. The drawback is that they take more time to build than a switch to friendly fire calculations, if we're talking which change to do first. Note that more open tiles are likely to be a thing in the future regardless of friendly fire, as I believe DE is keeping that trend with the rework to the Corpus Ship tilesets.

That would help, as well as distance to arm the explosive in my opinion. Lenz is supposed to be unsafe in it's description so it wouldn't need to be changed that much. 

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